Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Masteries are progression done right
Aeander
Member LegendaryPosts: 8,060
in Guild Wars 2
The MMO community has two main, diametrically-opposed crowds - those who prefer horizontal progression and those who prefer vertical progression. I say this because it has been the case, and I had long thought that it could never not be the case, that is impossible to satisfy both groups with the same title. To please one is to give the middle finger to the other.
The nature of horizontal progression is that one's options must be expanded without expanding one's power. This is strong in theory and strong when done well (as was the case in Guild Wars 1), but when done poorly (see vanilla Guild Wars 2), there is no feeling of progression at all.
But vertical progression has problems of its own - and these problems can be summed up with one word: "invalidation." When a character grows statistically stronger, all older content is gradually invalidated. Thus, progress is an illusion. The player is not tackling a wider world - they are simply leaving one point for another. The difficulty remains at a relative constant, and effectively, the extent of progress is new wallpaper.
With Heart of Thorns, however, Arenanet have done something different and inherently superior to traditional progression. Masteries are horizontal progression done absolutely right. They expand the player's options and change the player experience without taking anything away from the world. Nothing becomes inherently easier. Old content is not invalidated. There is no expectation that future expansions will replace the first. Instead, each stands on its own as something both rewarding and distinct, while the mastery system through its core masteries improves the player's options throughout the game as a whole.
And let's not forget the roleplaying perspective. Your character is literally learning how to do new things here. From the perspective of the player character, they have stumbled upon a mysterious and dangerous jungle which they must learn to survive in and navigate. This is how storytelling in video games is supposed to work - not with some arbitrary 5% damage bonus on a random sword drop or an imaginary increase to strength.
This is everything that is good about the best single player adventure games brought into the MMO space, and I believe it is to be commended, built upon in future expansions, and used as an inspiration for future games.
The nature of horizontal progression is that one's options must be expanded without expanding one's power. This is strong in theory and strong when done well (as was the case in Guild Wars 1), but when done poorly (see vanilla Guild Wars 2), there is no feeling of progression at all.
But vertical progression has problems of its own - and these problems can be summed up with one word: "invalidation." When a character grows statistically stronger, all older content is gradually invalidated. Thus, progress is an illusion. The player is not tackling a wider world - they are simply leaving one point for another. The difficulty remains at a relative constant, and effectively, the extent of progress is new wallpaper.
With Heart of Thorns, however, Arenanet have done something different and inherently superior to traditional progression. Masteries are horizontal progression done absolutely right. They expand the player's options and change the player experience without taking anything away from the world. Nothing becomes inherently easier. Old content is not invalidated. There is no expectation that future expansions will replace the first. Instead, each stands on its own as something both rewarding and distinct, while the mastery system through its core masteries improves the player's options throughout the game as a whole.
And let's not forget the roleplaying perspective. Your character is literally learning how to do new things here. From the perspective of the player character, they have stumbled upon a mysterious and dangerous jungle which they must learn to survive in and navigate. This is how storytelling in video games is supposed to work - not with some arbitrary 5% damage bonus on a random sword drop or an imaginary increase to strength.
This is everything that is good about the best single player adventure games brought into the MMO space, and I believe it is to be commended, built upon in future expansions, and used as an inspiration for future games.
Comments
I can be quoted as a "Non-GW2" fan, perhaps. That does not mean I have a closed mind and am not interested in learning things about it.
Please explain how these Masteries work both vertically and horizontally without making content obsolete? Vertical progression = more power = whatever is difficult today will not be tomorrow.
I promise you I am not trolling or trying to lead you in to a trap or argument. I am just very interested. I've always hated Vertical progression (beyond the original cap anyway), but a lot of games get horizontal progression wrong, and as you said, it ends up feeling like no progression at all.
A good example of this is the much-hyped gliding feature. A certain reward or waypoint is on the opposite side of a chasm that you cannot normally reach. But once you learn how to glide, you can access this, allowing you to explore new content, learn new shortcuts through the map, and obtain rewards that were previously inaccessible to you. This gliding skill is further enhanced by longer flight times, the ability to catch updrafts, and other forms of progression that allow you to explore more of the map.
Exalted Lore is a favorite of mine. You start by learning how to decipher their language, which lets you interact with Exalted Artifacts (such as teleporters) in the Maguuma jungle. Upgrade to gain acceptance into their city, unlocking new vendors and services. Upgrade again to be able to use Recall Devices found in the jungle to summon an Exalted to help you tackle enemies near that point. Upgrade again to be able to fight their champion once a day for new rewards. The final rank teaches you how to mine new materials that can be used in new (but not superior) crafting recipes.
Sounds like they are reacting to the negative feedback they've been getting about ascended gear. To my understanding, Ascended items (and others) were a clear skew from what they advertised, as it was superior gear that everyone wanted to get.
I like the concept of the masteries, and what you've described about them. I do, however, think that it's pretty thin and can still be looked at as another form of vertical progression. Just because the character isn't getting stronger gear or abilities, does not mean that it's horizontal.
Content/quest checks that block off further content are just as bad as any other version of vertical progression, imo. But, it's a good start.
FFXI so far had the best form of vertical + horizontal progression i've seen in any MMORPG.
Still hoping someone comes a long and does it better.
Thanks for your response and elaborating on the Masteries. Although I'm not nearly as impressed as I hoped I would be, I appreciate it.
Isn't the new zone/feature gated either way?
Isn't it the same as gaining reputation with a faction to access what it has to offer? A mechanic used in the MMOs of old.
Its like saying there is a difference between a quest chain that you have to click on a npc to begin each new part vs having the NPC automated and running through the chain minus a few clicks.
In the end...gated content is gated content, just dressed up differently.
In the GW2 world...its innovative.
The problem has always been either "invalidation" in the case of vertical progression or "irrelevance" in the case of horizontal progression.
The reason why the Mastery system is innovative (aside from, you know, actually being something new and inventive for its genre) is that it is neither irrelevant nor does it invalidate content. It creates gates that the player can overcome without affecting anything that they could already do. Additionally, this form of progression does not create imbalance. Having gliding doesn't allow you to down Fractal bosses faster. You can't use it to get an advantage in World vs. World.
And the nature of Masteries as opposed to something like gear tiers is the way new progression can be added. If Arenanet were, for example, to raise the level cap to 90, suddenly all previously earned gear is invalidated, wasting months of time spent crafting ascended gear for each geared character a player has. By utilizing Masteries, however, Anet effectively capitalized on ascended gear rather than destroying it as a system. Ascended gear is the expensive, but realistic, highest value gear in the game. And if they need to add more progression, all they need do is add more Masteries - angering no one and only expanding the player experience.
Another interesting fact is that the mastery is account wide. All the characters of the account share it and can work on it.
For example you play with your ranger, unlock half of the first gliding mastery tier then log out and play with your warrior and do the other half of the mastery. It is all XP based after all.
But each individual character still has some progression with their elite specializations, that require hero points some of which require masteries to reach.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
There are masteries in the old content.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
"I've tried to wrap my head around why, as someone who doesn't really mind grinding out things in MMOs, the Mastery thing rubs me the wrong way.
I think it's because in games like Metroid and Zelda, compared to an MMO, the reward loop is different. In Metroid-style games, its the "player" that succeeds, not the character. The player found that one nook with the Bomb power up in it. The player finds out which blocks will blow up through experimentation. The player learns the bosses patterns and how to use the Bomb to best effect. That's where the fun comes from. The player and the player's skills grow and learn and the satisfaction of overcoming the challenges with his new skills is what drives him to keep playing.
That's no so in MMOs like GW2. Here you're not really learning or growing as a player... your "character" is. I mean, why is your character unable to glide? Think about it. And how does running around in the jungle killing monsters and liberating camps left and right suddenly make him a glider? You, the player aren't doing anything radically different from the base game PvE... just doing events and killing stuff. The player doesn't accomplish anything really, but his character can now suddenly fly around. It doesn't feel rewarding, which makes it feel like a "grind" to some folks, and that's why it ultimately fails, IMO, of capturing the feeling of Metroid-ish content they were aiming for.
Anet should have, instead of designing zones in an attempt at emulating other game genres, played to their game's strengths. Give me a little story instance where my character learns to glide. Hell, bring in the B-Iconics so I can laugh at Braham's stupid behind struggling to fly around. Or a story instance learning how to operate mushrooms with Majory making cracks about seeing up Kasmeer's skirt as she flies up. Each story instance unlocks T1 of their respective masteries and then you continue on exploring and story-ing. Characters learn the new skills... at least at a base level, and one of the strongest aspects of GW2 is emphasized. Now with the base knowledge and skills, both the character can now get around, enjoy the content, while leveling the rest of the Mastery."
"Look you killed a wolf". Now you are level 2.
"Look you killed a ghost wolf" (by the way does the same as the regular wolf). Now you are level 80.
"Look you picked a sword +200 damage". Now you are so much stronger.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Wait...what? That was an idiotic response if I ever read one.
What he's saying is that killing monsters makes no thematic sense in terms of things like gliding. How the hell does killing mobs teach you to glide?
Did you even read the post at all?
XP is used as an abstraction in many MMOs. And it is a good thing.
Masteries are a player mechanic, not a character mechanic. That is why it is account wide.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Some people are just too used to complaining for the sake of complaining. Gliding isn't a 'thematic' reward lol, you would be as well challenging every single mmorpg in existance, why does killing creatures with spell x give you spell y at the next level? Why do you get a mount at max level? (for games with mounts) Why does killing a rabbit move my characters experience by 0.0x% etc etc.
Personally im from a generation that can actually use their imagination and can immerse - so for me its something I learned over time from the natives.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
This isn't the case for Guild Wars 2, or for any other MMO for that matter. The player character is a custom creation that the player gives life to. There is an aspect of roleplaying involved, even if an unfortunately large number of players choose to bypass this and settle on XxSasukeUchihaXx as their character name.
Player skill is far from irrelevant. It is, after all, how you get better at the game - and I would argue that this plays an even bigger part in a game like Guild Wars 2 where the power progression curve is relatively flat. But the reason why Masteries - at least for your first Maguuma exploring character - are so excellent is that they bring out progress in the character themselves. After that, it's an account (and thus player) feature, but that is a necessary sacrifice to make playing alternate characters not physically painful.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Eve did, but it's a very different type of game.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Masteries are bars to fill to slow the game and content consumption down, not horizontal progression. that's like calling Rep grinds in WoW horizontal progression, when all it actually is, is a time sink,gate.
a good example of horizontal progression is having subclasses, or lots of skills to mix and match, trying to puzzle out a build you have in mind.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.