Also I can't think of an MMO that was hyped for great graphics but had bad gameplay causing an exodus. Is this an actual trend or just one you're imagining?
AoC, WAR, Vanguard, SWTOR... Need a list?
It's easy. Take a notepad, scribble down every "WoW Killer" released between 2004 and 2010, give or take. Odds are every game on your list used pretty pretty sparklies as bait, and initially rotten system performance or terrible combat mechanics (or both) to drive players away again.
When people say "put gameplay before graphics," it's this decade-long uninterrupted string of "AAA" failures that they're remembering.
The game doesn't have longevity, but I do applaud them a little for going B2P. GW2 was pretty fair for the b2p even though I felt it didn't have any lasting content. ESO would probably be my favorite if it had a real AH system. TSW, I feel is below the two in combat but has a pretty strong story to hold against them. Just seems like all B2P MMOs have a flaw somewhere. This game probably isn't an exception, but it'll still have its following like the others.
The story on BDO seems to be flashy graphics but no content. Sure there is crafting and trading and you can run around and kill people, but that stuff get's old fast and doesn't appeal to the majority of players. Even Archeage had some PVE content even if it wasn't very good. I'll be interested to see some people stream the alpha, but once again we have this situation where we have a game that is already released being called an alpha. This confuses casual observers into thinking that there is going to be more to come when really what you see is what you get. I'm done with paying high priced "founders packs" for games that promise a lot of future goodies, but don't offer much at release.
Also I can't think of an MMO that was hyped for great graphics but had bad gameplay causing an exodus. Is this an actual trend or just one you're imagining?
AoC, WAR, Vanguard, SWTOR... Need a list?
It's easy. Take a notepad, scribble down every "WoW Killer" released between 2004 and 2010, give or take. Odds are every game on your list used pretty pretty sparklies as bait, and initially rotten system performance or terrible combat mechanics (or both) to drive players away again.
When people say "put gameplay before graphics," it's this decade-long uninterrupted string of "AAA" failures that they're remembering.
I never played Vanguard, but the only one of those that I played that had "great graphics" for it's time was AoC.
The "list' I come up with for failed "wow killers" doesn't have to do with graphics, it has to do with games trying to imitate WoW. The decade-long uninterrupted string of AAA failures has everything to do with every game trying to be a crappy themepark like WoW.
As for "rotten system performance" and "terrible combat mechanics", Black Desert definitely doesn't have those. Most people should be be able to run it on the lowest settings at least and it still looks good. As for the combat, well that's one thing Black Desert has in the bag for sure.
Bottom line: graphics should improve as technology improves.
My system is a 2500K Intel cpu @ 4500mhz / Nvidia MSI Gaming 970 @ 1500mhz/ 8Gb Corsair Vengeance RAM and i play on Alpha / Russian client with max settings 60 fps....
Offcourse mass pvp is a burden specialy with major numbers, but name me a game / mmo where this isnt the case when hundreds of spells and AoE's are flying around.
I think MMOs that want to focus strictly on PvP should follow Planetside 2's example. It is far more popular than any other Western built PvP oriented MMO so far and for good reason. Without the threat of losing progress or gear, you get a lot more gamers interested in playing.
Yesterday I entered into a town, got drop from 60 to 20 FPS, then back to 50, which is normal, then I went out of the town, no players or something around, but FPS dropped to 0, without any reason. That happens often, and it is not related to the PC or connection.
If you want to go at it like this, my FPS never dropped below 59, and it's not related to the PC or connection.
The story on BDO seems to be flashy graphics but no content. Sure there is crafting and trading and you can run around and kill people, but that stuff get's old fast and doesn't appeal to the majority of players. Even Archeage had some PVE content even if it wasn't very good. I'll be interested to see some people stream the alpha, but once again we have this situation where we have a game that is already released being called an alpha. This confuses casual observers into thinking that there is going to be more to come when really what you see is what you get. I'm done with paying high priced "founders packs" for games that promise a lot of future goodies, but don't offer much at release.
My guess is that it will appeal to players who are used to more old school games such as Lineage 2. Where you essentially crafted, traded and ran around killing other players.
For me this is a plus as the new games with their horrid "quest" systems just don't cut it. Running around again to run around again to run around again so I can hear a ding each time and get a prize is not really game play.
Letting players be in a world where their interactions are the primary game play is far more interesting for some as it capitalizes on traditional mmo game play.
As far as confusing casual observers, eventually people have to learn. I have only been disappointed once when a game came out that promised a variety of things but didn't deliver (Aion). However, in fairness, I also had supplied a bit of my own narrative at the time as I was still new to mmo's and thought that they were trying to create online worlds. I learned my lesson and now can approach any game with realistic expectations.
If it takes one game to teach this lesson to people then so be it. The issue is when they keep falling for "it" and don't learn and then complain. But that's a character defect and you can't really plan for that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What Black Desert needs for me is a better starting experience (similar to Blade N Soul) and UI when conversing with NPCs. In addition to more PvE end game / dungeon activities as a whole.
The graphics are great, the weather and wear and tear of your armor through use or trudging through mud and going through storms is awesome. The combat is entertaining -- especially the Samurai Blader and the Wizard -- and the way they have their Housing system set up is fantastic as a whole. Not to mention the feeling you get when entering villages or large cities as a whole -- the scale of the large cities and the amount of pick pocketed you can do. Buildings you can scale and sit on the edges of or lean against buildings on the ground.
Exceptional game for immersion and role playing by those factors; though I haven't really attempted to see the max character limit for text yet to see if it would support actual text based RP.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Just because a completely different MMO under a completely different publisher from a completely different developer failed, doesn't mean that BDO will....
Why the constant comparisons to AA? If anything, BDO competes with Vindictus rather than AA.
Problem is by the time the hype comes and games get released theyre already old news, old graphics and old in general and there are a dozen other new and better things announced. So its a constant cycle.
There will never ever be a game released that gives it all. Not when people accept trash over and over again.
The money isnt there for these guys to make the ultimate game. Even when a game starts out trying to raie a million bucks and raises nearly 100 million it still doesnt matter.
Also 'vanilla' games are never going to be the big thing either. Games are going to have to have the ability to be modded and have add ons present. Thats just how it is these days.
You also need a healthy population (of legit players). While most MMOs are now solo games with a chat the ones that are better than average have people in them that you know and recognize, or they have such large numbers that it makes the game play feel more 'epic'. The lack of population is another reason why many games dont reach full potential. Mostly because there isnt enough money coming in t spend to improve the game and secondarily because all of these 'epic' and 'awesome' things games promise require a fairly large player base in game to accomplish.
Finally a game needs to be 'sandy' but not completely sand box. Because sand box sounds great in theory but in reality it has severe limitations, you can only create your own content for so long. Once it goes beyond that then it is simply another grind. so you get bored or being on rails or you get bored of killing the same people for the hundred time.
So you need a game that has a lot in the beginning and adds stuff over time in a regular fashion to keep the players occupied. Which most companies cant afford to do. While developed content will never keep up a hybrid could possibly do it. Developed content that starts a process of something that takes time (isnt a grind) and requires player interaction to accomplish Many have tried it none have perfected it. And its usually a one shot deal.
I know this isnt BDO specific but its just the next game to com eout that promised big things fell far far short on what they could actually deliver and is another game to go in the collection and spend a few hours on and play when they have updates or expansions and play the 'what if' game with for the next 10 years.
Another thing to consider is great graphics isn't easy to pull off in MMOs, especially in a seamless world. If anything, it's an indicator of quality, not an indicator of shallowness like it might be with single player games.
What people need to look at is development time. If it is made in a year or even two, AND has sweet graphics and strong PVP, you can expect it to be basically crappy. I.E. repetitive and a 3 month chuck. (after 3 months you shelve it) Some people like the grind. Grind and PVP requires little to no real content. A good story, immersive elements, difficult PVE, lore, history, replayability, meaningful and interesting quests, these things are elements that drive PVE players to stick around. And elements that take time to do well. Eastern MMOs have a simple track record to follow. And you either get into these games or you do not. For me a grind without these other elements is dead to me. Something I will not even entertain no matter how good it looks. Final Fantasies MMO is not bad but it is one of the few, newer MMORPGs that has mainly PVE and thus, it is doing well. I do not play this though. I play SotA.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
"What people need to look at is development time."
I really don't know about that, Man. Many MMOs were in development forever and turned out to be complete turds.
As for the story and lore, it was hard for me to tell due to the bad translation but if nothing else there was tons of quest text. Hopefully the story is good but it's at least definitely expansive.
I think it has a great amount of immersive elements, to the graphics and music, to things like the fact that you can't teleport anywhere (something I really like in MMOs especially in one without loading screens- it makes the world feel more massive).
The one thing PVE'ers will find missing is dungeons and raids. Everything else though seems pretty damn good.
I got into the Alpha event this week in Black Desert and yes the graphics are nice, some of the better graphics out there (my opinion). Gameplay is ok, nothing special. Granted I did not reach max level but in order to reach max level you have to go through all levels and if I am not grabbed and enjoy the game at the low levels then I will not last to reach max level and I feel this is the case with this game. I just can not see myself reaching max level, game play is not special enough to keep me interested.
Now since this is alpha and they are adapting the game for the NA market then who knows how it will be by release so if I get the chance to play in beta I will in order to see how the game has improved (hopefully).
Comments
Anything else does not matter much to me.
So far i like what i have seen but it all depends on how Daum / Pearl Abyss manage their Cashshop.
If its Pay to Win crap then its gameover and i stick to Archeage untill a good world pvp mmo comes out around 2029.
But from what I can tell it's nowhere near on the scale of P2W as Archeage.
I think something that mitigates it is that there's no level cap. So you're going to have to work at it if you want to be the best.
It's easy. Take a notepad, scribble down every "WoW Killer" released between 2004 and 2010, give or take. Odds are every game on your list used pretty pretty sparklies as bait, and initially rotten system performance or terrible combat mechanics (or both) to drive players away again.
When people say "put gameplay before graphics," it's this decade-long uninterrupted string of "AAA" failures that they're remembering.
The "list' I come up with for failed "wow killers" doesn't have to do with graphics, it has to do with games trying to imitate WoW. The decade-long uninterrupted string of AAA failures has everything to do with every game trying to be a crappy themepark like WoW.
As for "rotten system performance" and "terrible combat mechanics", Black Desert definitely doesn't have those. Most people should be be able to run it on the lowest settings at least and it still looks good. As for the combat, well that's one thing Black Desert has in the bag for sure.
Bottom line: graphics should improve as technology improves.
Offcourse mass pvp is a burden specialy with major numbers, but name me a game / mmo where this isnt the case when hundreds of spells and AoE's are flying around.
BDO is realy well optimised.
For me this is a plus as the new games with their horrid "quest" systems just don't cut it. Running around again to run around again to run around again so I can hear a ding each time and get a prize is not really game play.
Letting players be in a world where their interactions are the primary game play is far more interesting for some as it capitalizes on traditional mmo game play.
As far as confusing casual observers, eventually people have to learn. I have only been disappointed once when a game came out that promised a variety of things but didn't deliver (Aion). However, in fairness, I also had supplied a bit of my own narrative at the time as I was still new to mmo's and thought that they were trying to create online worlds. I learned my lesson and now can approach any game with realistic expectations.
If it takes one game to teach this lesson to people then so be it. The issue is when they keep falling for "it" and don't learn and then complain. But that's a character defect and you can't really plan for that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The graphics are great, the weather and wear and tear of your armor through use or trudging through mud and going through storms is awesome. The combat is entertaining -- especially the Samurai Blader and the Wizard -- and the way they have their Housing system set up is fantastic as a whole. Not to mention the feeling you get when entering villages or large cities as a whole -- the scale of the large cities and the amount of pick pocketed you can do. Buildings you can scale and sit on the edges of or lean against buildings on the ground.
Exceptional game for immersion and role playing by those factors; though I haven't really attempted to see the max character limit for text yet to see if it would support actual text based RP.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
Based on this title, since i did bought Archeage Founder, enjoyed playing it for more than a year, and consider it VERY well spent.Should I buy Black Desert Founder if it's release ?
Just because a completely different MMO under a completely different publisher from a completely different developer failed, doesn't mean that BDO will....
Why the constant comparisons to AA? If anything, BDO competes with Vindictus rather than AA.
Playing: WF
Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA
There will never ever be a game released that gives it all. Not when people accept trash over and over again.
The money isnt there for these guys to make the ultimate game. Even when a game starts out trying to raie a million bucks and raises nearly 100 million it still doesnt matter.
Also 'vanilla' games are never going to be the big thing either. Games are going to have to have the ability to be modded and have add ons present. Thats just how it is these days.
You also need a healthy population (of legit players). While most MMOs are now solo games with a chat the ones that are better than average have people in them that you know and recognize, or they have such large numbers that it makes the game play feel more 'epic'. The lack of population is another reason why many games dont reach full potential. Mostly because there isnt enough money coming in t spend to improve the game and secondarily because all of these 'epic' and 'awesome' things games promise require a fairly large player base in game to accomplish.
Finally a game needs to be 'sandy' but not completely sand box. Because sand box sounds great in theory but in reality it has severe limitations, you can only create your own content for so long. Once it goes beyond that then it is simply another grind. so you get bored or being on rails or you get bored of killing the same people for the hundred time.
So you need a game that has a lot in the beginning and adds stuff over time in a regular fashion to keep the players occupied. Which most companies cant afford to do. While developed content will never keep up a hybrid could possibly do it. Developed content that starts a process of something that takes time (isnt a grind) and requires player interaction to accomplish Many have tried it none have perfected it. And its usually a one shot deal.
I know this isnt BDO specific but its just the next game to com eout that promised big things fell far far short on what they could actually deliver and is another game to go in the collection and spend a few hours on and play when they have updates or expansions and play the 'what if' game with for the next 10 years.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I really don't know about that, Man. Many MMOs were in development forever and turned out to be complete turds.
As for the story and lore, it was hard for me to tell due to the bad translation but if nothing else there was tons of quest text. Hopefully the story is good but it's at least definitely expansive.
I think it has a great amount of immersive elements, to the graphics and music, to things like the fact that you can't teleport anywhere (something I really like in MMOs especially in one without loading screens- it makes the world feel more massive).
The one thing PVE'ers will find missing is dungeons and raids. Everything else though seems pretty damn good.
Now since this is alpha and they are adapting the game for the NA market then who knows how it will be by release so if I get the chance to play in beta I will in order to see how the game has improved (hopefully).