Tree of Savior does everything right for me as an MMO veteran.
I can't wait until it is out of beta.
Everything except the AWFUL potato servers they currently have. Makes the game completely broken currently. Oh and the fact 90% of the game is client-side. So people will be hacking it into kingdom come. (And already are.)
It depends, if they have server side protection that blocks stuff that it deems weird, it can work, the fact alot of it is client side means its easly modable if you wanted to.
At first I was like "Are you on crack?" and then I remembered something from an old MUD-DEV archive:
"The perfect client software is software the players can do anything they damn well choose with and not break the game. The *client software* is the enemy. The players are just a force of nature."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm still waiting for a nice world to explore...Every single MMO the last few years just makes a generic world that is nothing but a questfest.......I blame WoW...All the games before it had interesting worlds, all the games since are boring, linear theme park worlds.
hmm .. go for the MMOs that do not even have worlds .. like Marvel Heroes.
Tree of Savior does everything right for me as an MMO veteran.
I can't wait until it is out of beta.
Everything except the AWFUL potato servers they currently have. Makes the game completely broken currently. Oh and the fact 90% of the game is client-side. So people will be hacking it into kingdom come. (And already are.)
It depends, if they have server side protection that blocks stuff that it deems weird, it can work, the fact alot of it is client side means its easly modable if you wanted to.
At first I was like "Are you on crack?" and then I remembered something from an old MUD-DEV archive:
"The perfect client software is software the players can do anything they damn well choose with and not break the game. The *client software* is the enemy. The players are just a force of nature."
You have to do a lot of stuff client-side or else you'll end up with an awful OnLive-like experience. The question is what you do client side and what you do server side. You have to expect that the client will do arbitrarily weird stuff, and have enough done server side to keep that from breaking the game. Graphics are generally safe to do client side, unless improperly seeing through walls or some such could give players an advantage.
If the official record of how much life players have, whether skills are on cooldown, whether attacks hit, how much damage attacks do, player inventory contents, loot drops, or what player's stats are are handled client side, you're basically begging to be overrun by cheaters. That all absolutely must be done server side, with any client-side hacking only able to get the client to lie to the player and not change what the servers believe.
Where it really gets tricky is handling player positions and exactly when the player used skills. If you don't trust the client at all, your controls will feel laggy. If you let the client do whatever it pleases, you enable all sorts of warping cheats. Ideally, if the client says the player pressed a key at some time, and the server sees the message from the client 50 ms later, it believes the client and credits the client with having done the intended action when the client says it did so. But there has to be limits on this, as if you let the client claim it did something at some time and the server sees it five seconds later and believes it, then players could retroactively do all sorts of cheats. This sort of checking is how a game can seem like it's running smoothly, and then suddenly you rubber band when there's a bit of lag: the server just overrode what the client said happened because it took too long to find out.
Meanwhile, games aren't inclined to advertise exactly what anti-cheating measures they have in place. Tell people exactly what you check and what you don't and you make it easier for people to evade your security measures and cheat.
I'm still waiting for a nice world to explore...Every single MMO the last few years just makes a generic world that is nothing but a questfest.......I blame WoW...All the games before it had interesting worlds, all the games since are boring, linear theme park worlds.
If you want a world to explore, have you tried Uncharted Waters Online? Exploration is as important of a game mechanic as combat. Much of the best gear in the game comes from discovering it in the wild, without having to kill things to get it.
You have to do a lot of stuff client-side or else you'll end up with an awful OnLive-like experience. The question is what you do client side and what you do server side. You have to expect that the client will do arbitrarily weird stuff, and have enough done server side to keep that from breaking the game. Graphics are generally safe to do client side, unless improperly seeing through walls or some such could give players an advantage.
Where it really gets tricky is handling player positions and exactly when the player used skills. If you don't trust the client at all, your controls will feel laggy. If you let the client do whatever it pleases, you enable all sorts of warping cheats. Ideally, if the client says the player pressed a key at some time, and the server sees the message from the client 50 ms later, it believes the client and credits the client with having done the intended action when the client says it did so. But there has to be limits on this, as if you let the client claim it did something at some time and the server sees it five seconds later and believes it, then players could retroactively do all sorts of cheats. This sort of checking is how a game can seem like it's running smoothly, and then suddenly you rubber band when there's a bit of lag: the server just overrode what the client said happened because it took too long to find out.
Meanwhile, games aren't inclined to advertise exactly what anti-cheating measures they have in place. Tell people exactly what you check and what you don't and you make it easier for people to evade your security measures and cheat.
Rendering is always done client-side. Its just not possible to render 1000's of players viewports on one server and then stream everything back. You would melt the internet.
Actually, rubberbanding is caused by 2 things depending on the game:
1. your client has movement prediction for all units on screen. If the prediction was wrong and a movement change packet comes in late the sudden update will make the unit snap to its new location. 2. The movements are sent to the server expressed as changes in velocity. This means that less data has to be sent as only speed adjustments are sent and not exact positions being spammed constantly. If the calculations become out of sync on the server and your client...or even other clients then your unit will appear in different places when you view it from other clients. Some games force a periodic absolute position update which causes units to snap to where they should be. The server didn't overwrite anything, its just what you saw in your client was suddenly adjusted to match what the server had the entire time. Your client was telling you a lie.
Movement cheats are rampant because in games like WoW they do all of the physics on the client ONLY. This is because its nearly impossible to do physics for thousands of players on one server so the server simply trusts the client here. Pretty much any game with FPS or WASD movement will have this problem.
Anticheating measures client side are a complete joke. The only thing preventing most people from doing this stuff is that they don't know how to use IDA Pro and the people who do will not share their toys for free.
Posted in the "nostalgia" thread earlier, but it'd probably help you enjoy a game more if you went in with no expectations and played the game for what it is. Only then will you be able to tell whether it's something you'll enjoy or not. If you go in with a checklist before you play a game you are not going to touch 99% of the stuff that is released.
My problem is every time i think i've found my new mmo i get bored after a month. And its because there is nothing i haven't done before. I agree with the OP on this. So many mmo's to chose from yet its all the same thing in the end. Might as well just go back to playing Wow as some of you would say like its an insult. And the real funny part is when it come to combat play,Wow beats every new game that's come after it. Its fluid and smooth as butter. Its like all the other companies can't figure this out.
My problem is every time i think i've found my new mmo i get bored after a month. And its because there is nothing i haven't done before. I agree with the OP on this. So many mmo's to chose from yet its all the same thing in the end. Might as well just go back to playing Wow as some of you would say like its an insult. And the real funny part is when it come to combat play,Wow beats every new game that's come after it. Its fluid and smooth as butter. Its like all the other companies can't figure this out.
I think a lot of this revolves around the fact that most MMORPGs can be played like a single player game these days. I think the games people enjoyed in the old days were very highly community driven games, you know, ones you actually had to interact with other people.
I've actually gone back to tabletop gaming. I was at a gaming convention this past weekend for the first time in 20 years. I had a blast! I rarely play video games at all anymore and I NEVER thought that would happen. I don't even want to get a PS4 or whatever, I've scrapped my plans for building a gaming PC. I have just lost interest in video games, not just MMO's. I've met a lot of nice new people and a few I don't care much for, but even the jackholes can't hide behind internet anonymity and have to conform to the games rules and act like decent human beings. League rules keep everyone on the same page, and you quickly find out that any cheating you might want to do is only cheating yourself. Like Golf.
If you are interested in learning more Google up the D&D Adventurers League, and go to the store finder to see if any in your area have games scheduled. They probably do. League play allows anyone to show up and play, and the characters can be ported from game to game, store to store, and conventions too. Pathfinder society is another one to Google for organized play.
Nothing wrong with anyone enjoying the current game market. I'm glad you guys like what you are playing. I just can't get into them anymore.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
I play MMO's currenlty. SWTOR is keeping me entertained. For PVP I log into APB (not an mmo by my standard, but whatever).
I am eagerly awaiting the return of DF1. That will take all my gaming time.
I also completely agree with the OP. The perfect MMO for people like us is not here.
I can't wait to get my ass back into Darkfall. I've been following things on the Rise of Agon forums; that team really has their stuff together. So happy to see that progress is being made and with a such competent group of people.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Posted in the "nostalgia" thread earlier, but it'd probably help you enjoy a game more if you went in with no expectations and played the game for what it is. Only then will you be able to tell whether it's something you'll enjoy or not. If you go in with a checklist before you play a game you are not going to touch 99% of the stuff that is released.
Can't put the egg back in the shell.
You can't just forget a dozen years of been there, done that.
Which is the industry's major issue at the moment, in my humble.
A raftload of bitter vets (majority?), steadily crying for what was, and thus unable to enjoy anything that is.
My problem is every time i think i've found my new mmo i get bored after a month.
Wait ... you can have fun for a month on a f2p product, and that is a "problem"?
For someone who is used to the 'ol treadmill of buying a game for $60 and playing it for a month then looking for another, sure.
For someone like myself who played EQ for 6 hears, Eve for 4ish years, Darfkall for 4 years, then getting bored after a month IS A PROBLEM because we want something we can sink into and enjoy for years to come.
Price aside, because I don't care if it's free to play, buy to play, buy + sub or whatever. A good game is a good game. MMORPG's are not something I expect to pick up for a few hours and then forget about. I expect years of enjoyment. That's 14 years of enjoyment I have up there. 3 games. There were others that lasted less. WoW lasted me about a year and a half, AoC for 6 months Archeage for 6 months, maybe more later. If I don't get 6 months of solid fun, it's not a good MMO imo.
"you should lower your expectations", Never settle, you'll end up someones bitch. "nostalgia", Haha yeah right. (generally speaking for anyone who tries to argue with a thread like this) Don't like my opinions, piss off. I definitely don't care about yours.
My problem is every time i think i've found my new mmo i get bored after a month.
Wait ... you can have fun for a month on a f2p product, and that is a "problem"?
For someone who is used to the 'ol treadmill of buying a game for $60 and playing it for a month then looking for another, sure.
For someone like myself who played EQ for 6 hears, Eve for 4ish years, Darfkall for 4 years, then getting bored after a month IS A PROBLEM because we want something we can sink into and enjoy for years to come.
Price aside, because I don't care if it's free to play, buy to play, buy + sub or whatever. A good game is a good game. MMORPG's are not something I expect to pick up for a few hours and then forget about. I expect years of enjoyment. That's 14 years of enjoyment I have up there. 3 games. There were others that lasted less. WoW lasted me about a year and a half, AoC for 6 months Archeage for 6 months, maybe more later. If I don't get 6 months of solid fun, it's not a good MMO imo.
"you should lower your expectations", Never settle, you'll end up someones bitch. "nostalgia", Haha yeah right. (generally speaking for anyone who tries to argue with a thread like this) Don't like my opinions, piss off. I definitely don't care about yours.
Thank you for finding these words to describe what I'm experiencing!!!
My problem is every time i think i've found my new mmo i get bored after a month. And its because there is nothing i haven't done before. I agree with the OP on this. So many mmo's to chose from yet its all the same thing in the end. Might as well just go back to playing Wow as some of you would say like its an insult. And the real funny part is when it come to combat play,Wow beats every new game that's come after it. Its fluid and smooth as butter. Its like all the other companies can't figure this out.
So your problem is that you keep playing very similar games and get bored of one game because it's so similar to other games you're already bored of? Well then, I have a solution. Try playing a game that isn't so similar to a bunch of others you've played. Uncharted Waters Online will do the trick. Or perhaps A Tale in the Desert. Or maybe Puzzle Pirates or Spiral Knights.
My problem is every time i think i've found my new mmo i get bored after a month. And its because there is nothing i haven't done before. I agree with the OP on this. So many mmo's to chose from yet its all the same thing in the end. Might as well just go back to playing Wow as some of you would say like its an insult. And the real funny part is when it come to combat play,Wow beats every new game that's come after it. Its fluid and smooth as butter. Its like all the other companies can't figure this out.
So your problem is that you keep playing very similar games and get bored of one game because it's so similar to other games you're already bored of? Well then, I have a solution. Try playing a game that isn't so similar to a bunch of others you've played. Uncharted Waters Online will do the trick. Or perhaps A Tale in the Desert. Or maybe Puzzle Pirates or Spiral Knights.
That's like saying if he got bored playing basketball he should start quilting instead for fun. Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the games you mentioned are only a passing resemblance at best.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
To me that makes sense though. If you are bored of playing basketball, then it's time to do something other than play basketball. (mind you this applies if the purpose is primarily entertainment, if there is another purpose then different story)
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
To a hammer everything looks like a nail. To a bored person everything looks boring.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
you are right to be bored. gaming industry as a whole, is frozen in time on purpose. MMOs have it worse cause they are harder to make. call me cynical or w/e but that's how it is. there are many epic games out right and i enjoy them all, but i know they still bring nothing new to the table.
my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.
You keep saying, "I'm bored, entertain me." Without saying what entertains you. You say, "Nothing is new." Without saying what you would consider to be "new."
There are loot grinds There are PvE progression There is PvP There is Survival/Zombie out the ass There is Raid/Dungeon There is BG style/arena There is open world There is sandbox There is single player There is group play There is shitty anime There is a game with a manual and your friends have to difuse a friggin bomb by you reading the manual and instructing them what the fuck to do.
If you think old school was better, go play a private server...only like 245,403 of them for any game. There have never been more choices to play a good game. I get bored sometimes, but always find something new and different.
@Abuz0r ; Try to find some indie MMO. There's a plenty of it, try searching this site. Try starting from Top Voted Games in development Some of them are listening to their players. And first of all, tell them what you expect.
You keep saying, "I'm bored, entertain me." Without saying what entertains you. You say, "Nothing is new." Without saying what you would consider to be "new."
What do you want that hasn't been done?
replace "new" with "fresh". that's probably what he means. i think that's the main point otherwise nothing is new. at some point in human history someone somewhere thought of it. some of those people turned it into reality, some didn't.
for example the main thing i enjoyed in The Secret World, were their investigation quest. i don't see that type of quests in MMOs around a lot but maybe that's just me. they kept me busy for while and i loved it. Funcom is/was a adventure-centric company after all. it is just an example though. when you want to go see a movie you don't predict what plot you want to see you know. same thing with games. you don't predict the mechanics, you just do enough research and hope they offer you the best. for example the other day i watched Inside Out with my cousin and i loved it.
unlike OP i still enjoy games though, but i see where he is coming from. at some point i was stuck at the same phase but i got over it automatically. SWTOR's recent DLC was awesome for example, nothing new though.
my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.
Comments
"The perfect client software is software the players can do anything they damn well choose with and not break the game. The *client software* is the enemy. The players are just a force of nature."
Source: http://www.disinterest.org/resource/MUD-Dev/2000q2/013638.html
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If the official record of how much life players have, whether skills are on cooldown, whether attacks hit, how much damage attacks do, player inventory contents, loot drops, or what player's stats are are handled client side, you're basically begging to be overrun by cheaters. That all absolutely must be done server side, with any client-side hacking only able to get the client to lie to the player and not change what the servers believe.
Where it really gets tricky is handling player positions and exactly when the player used skills. If you don't trust the client at all, your controls will feel laggy. If you let the client do whatever it pleases, you enable all sorts of warping cheats. Ideally, if the client says the player pressed a key at some time, and the server sees the message from the client 50 ms later, it believes the client and credits the client with having done the intended action when the client says it did so. But there has to be limits on this, as if you let the client claim it did something at some time and the server sees it five seconds later and believes it, then players could retroactively do all sorts of cheats. This sort of checking is how a game can seem like it's running smoothly, and then suddenly you rubber band when there's a bit of lag: the server just overrode what the client said happened because it took too long to find out.
Meanwhile, games aren't inclined to advertise exactly what anti-cheating measures they have in place. Tell people exactly what you check and what you don't and you make it easier for people to evade your security measures and cheat.
If you want a world to explore, have you tried Uncharted Waters Online? Exploration is as important of a game mechanic as combat. Much of the best gear in the game comes from discovering it in the wild, without having to kill things to get it.
Actually, rubberbanding is caused by 2 things depending on the game:
1. your client has movement prediction for all units on screen. If the prediction was wrong and a movement change packet comes in late the sudden update will make the unit snap to its new location.
2. The movements are sent to the server expressed as changes in velocity. This means that less data has to be sent as only speed adjustments are sent and not exact positions being spammed constantly. If the calculations become out of sync on the server and your client...or even other clients then your unit will appear in different places when you view it from other clients. Some games force a periodic absolute position update which causes units to snap to where they should be. The server didn't overwrite anything, its just what you saw in your client was suddenly adjusted to match what the server had the entire time. Your client was telling you a lie.
Movement cheats are rampant because in games like WoW they do all of the physics on the client ONLY.
This is because its nearly impossible to do physics for thousands of players on one server so the server simply trusts the client here. Pretty much any game with FPS or WASD movement will have this problem.
Anticheating measures client side are a complete joke. The only thing preventing most people from doing this stuff is that they don't know how to use IDA Pro and the people who do will not share their toys for free.
I rarely play video games at all anymore and I NEVER thought that would happen. I don't even want to get a PS4 or whatever, I've scrapped my plans for building a gaming PC. I have just lost interest in video games, not just MMO's.
I've met a lot of nice new people and a few I don't care much for, but even the jackholes can't hide behind internet anonymity and have to conform to the games rules and act like decent human beings. League rules keep everyone on the same page, and you quickly find out that any cheating you might want to do is only cheating yourself. Like Golf.
If you are interested in learning more Google up the D&D Adventurers League, and go to the store finder to see if any in your area have games scheduled. They probably do. League play allows anyone to show up and play, and the characters can be ported from game to game, store to store, and conventions too.
Pathfinder society is another one to Google for organized play.
Nothing wrong with anyone enjoying the current game market. I'm glad you guys like what you are playing.
I just can't get into them anymore.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
I am eagerly awaiting the return of DF1. That will take all my gaming time.
I also completely agree with the OP. The perfect MMO for people like us is not here.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You can't just forget a dozen years of been there, done that.
Which is the industry's major issue at the moment, in my humble.
A raftload of bitter vets (majority?), steadily crying for what was, and thus unable to enjoy anything that is.
For someone like myself who played EQ for 6 hears, Eve for 4ish years, Darfkall for 4 years, then getting bored after a month IS A PROBLEM because we want something we can sink into and enjoy for years to come.
Price aside, because I don't care if it's free to play, buy to play, buy + sub or whatever. A good game is a good game. MMORPG's are not something I expect to pick up for a few hours and then forget about. I expect years of enjoyment. That's 14 years of enjoyment I have up there. 3 games. There were others that lasted less. WoW lasted me about a year and a half, AoC for 6 months Archeage for 6 months, maybe more later. If I don't get 6 months of solid fun, it's not a good MMO imo.
"you should lower your expectations", Never settle, you'll end up someones bitch.
"nostalgia", Haha yeah right.
(generally speaking for anyone who tries to argue with a thread like this)
Don't like my opinions, piss off. I definitely don't care about yours.
That's like saying if he got bored playing basketball he should start quilting instead for fun. Ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the games you mentioned are only a passing resemblance at best.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
There is so much for people to do, they should never get bored.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.
What do you want that hasn't been done?
There are PvE progression
There is PvP
There is Survival/Zombie out the ass
There is Raid/Dungeon
There is BG style/arena
There is open world
There is sandbox
There is single player
There is group play
There is shitty anime
There is a game with a manual and your friends have to difuse a friggin bomb by you reading the manual and instructing them what the fuck to do.
If you think old school was better, go play a private server...only like 245,403 of them for any game. There have never been more choices to play a good game. I get bored sometimes, but always find something new and different.
for example the main thing i enjoyed in The Secret World, were their investigation quest. i don't see that type of quests in MMOs around a lot but maybe that's just me. they kept me busy for while and i loved it. Funcom is/was a adventure-centric company after all. it is just an example though. when you want to go see a movie you don't predict what plot you want to see you know. same thing with games. you don't predict the mechanics, you just do enough research and hope they offer you the best. for example the other day i watched Inside Out with my cousin and i loved it.
unlike OP i still enjoy games though, but i see where he is coming from. at some point i was stuck at the same phase but i got over it automatically. SWTOR's recent DLC was awesome for example, nothing new though.
my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.