Stop feeding the troll guys. Thebeast is only here to spew negativity and not do anything productive.
As other people have already said, this game will embrace many of the things that vanguard did. If you don't like it, then stop wasting our time and your time because this is 100% not the game for you.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Nice try, most of my complaints are original VG release issues. Ridiculous system reqs for mediocre graphics? VG at launch. Delayed animations? A problem from launch to closing. Extremely boring items and stats? The problem was the WORST at launch. Most dungeon mobs linked? Also came at launch. Half the world empty? Was the worst at launch. Everyone could solo to 50, you guessed it, at launch. Half the classes were pointless at launch also, especially every dps except Sorcerer and Ranger.
I hate to sound overly repetitive but it's the only way to cut through all the VG BS you hear on these forums. The game was a ghost town for a reason. Players will ignore bugs for the sake of a great game. VG was not a great game. Time to accept it or prove otherwise, in vain that is.
I'm here as a fan of EQ, not Vanguard. When I give my opinion of how combat in Pantheon should be, I recommend EQ, not Vanguard. Same for questing, level of challenge, soloability and virtually all other mechanics; EQ is the game to emulate, not Vanguard.
That said, you are still misrepresenting the real issues. This is coming from someone who only played Vanguard for 6 months, but not for most of the reasons you've blown out of proportion.
The graphics were great. Maybe your memory is foggy, but this was not mediocre in 2007.
Sorry you are still upset you couldn't run the game. The only thing vain here is you trying to prove your personal issues with the game were the problem, and not the botched launch. Then to prove it, you refer to things like missing content. You are arguing against yourself. MMOs don't recover from a bad launch (unless they completely recreate their game - FFXIV).
Typical fanboi, defending a game you barely even played.....
From laggy button spamming combat, to ridiculous system reqs for mediocre graphics, absurdly delayed animations, extremely boring item stats that all looked the same, mostly linked dungeon mobs no matter how well you pulled, half the world completely devoid of any content, everyone could easily solo to 50(especially healers??), half the classes were worse version of others, endless WoW quest spam, etc.
Even the games creator didn't support VG, bailing right at launch. VG didn't blow anything out of the water, unless exploding it's own employees out of the parking lot counts.
Says the guy who is a Brad McQuaid stalker and argued to great fervor in the threads with accusations about VR being a fraud and this game being a scam. Also considering your consistent counter arguments do nothing to deal with the points I brought up that made VG shine.
So far, all you can do is go on and on like Raymond Babbitt about how the game was bugged and broken.
The few of us arguing here aren't denying its weak points. The game had some horrible problems and balance issues, bugs etc... That kind of happens when you lose your backer and then are forced to release six months early.There are many things I can't stand about VG, even in its intended design, but to deny what it did do well with the complete dismissal you are making? Again, you are just trolling from a different angle as you did in the VR and Brad character attack threads.
Stop feeding the troll guys. Thebeast is only here to spew negativity and not do anything productive.
As other people have already said, this game will embrace many of the things that vanguard did. If you don't like it, then stop wasting our time and your time because this is 100% not the game for you.
Exactly, and if anyone is wondering why Hrimnir is saying this, go look at theBeasttt's comments on this game over the history of this forum.
I liked the 6 man party style that was in ffxi. Tank,healer, 4 dps's. Or could be tank, healer, support, 3 dps's. It could be anthing really, but you needed at least 1 tank and 1 healer, the other 4 could be anything really in ffxi. Sometimes even xp'd with just 4/5 peaple, would be slower but still worked.
Even aliances could be different numbers, parties were not set in stone back in ffxi.
The few
of us arguing here aren't denying its weak points. The game had some
horrible problems and balance issues, bugs etc... That kind of happens
when you lose your backer and then are forced to release six months
early.
Well Microsoft wasnt the "baker", Microsoft was the distributor and investor. There was no kickstarter back then.
And six months is quite optimistic. IIRC the words McQuaid used back then was "at least six months".
Stop feeding the troll guys. Thebeast is only here to spew negativity and not do anything productive.
As other people have already said, this game will embrace many of the things that vanguard did. If you don't like it, then stop wasting our time and your time because this is 100% not the game for you.
I was in VG beta and played it at virtually every major change. My concerns for Pantheon are legitimate, I could care less if you don't want to hear them or not. Grow some thicker skin m8
Says the guy who is a Brad McQuaid stalker and argued to great fervor in the threads with accusations about VR being a fraud and this game being a scam. Also considering your consistent counter arguments do nothing to deal with the points I brought up that made VG shine.
So far, all you can do is go on and on like Raymond Babbitt about how the game was bugged and broken.
The few of us arguing here aren't denying its weak points. The game had some horrible problems and balance issues, bugs etc... That kind of happens when you lose your backer and then are forced to release six months early.There are many things I can't stand about VG, even in its intended design, but to deny what it did do well with the complete dismissal you are making? Again, you are just trolling from a different angle as you did in the VR and Brad character attack threads.
Your denial is getting sad. You don't have to stalk him to know the truth behind his jaded past, the info is freely available for everyone to see. You were barely involved with VG in passing so please stop pretending like you even remotely know what you're talking about.
Lets try something new, lets only argue about subjects we have a clue about. Sound good?
The few
of us arguing here aren't denying its weak points. The game had some
horrible problems and balance issues, bugs etc... That kind of happens
when you lose your backer and then are forced to release six months
early.
Well Microsoft wasnt the "baker", Microsoft was the distributor and investor. There was no kickstarter back then.
And six months is quite optimistic. IIRC the words McQuaid used back then was "at least six months".
Seriously? Backer means supporter, investor, etc... Obviously KS didn't exist back then. I can't tell if you are being funny or obtuse here. /facepalm
Nice try, most of my complaints are original VG release issues. Ridiculous system reqs for mediocre graphics? VG at launch. Delayed animations? A problem from launch to closing. Extremely boring items and stats? The problem was the WORST at launch. Most dungeon mobs linked? Also came at launch. Half the world empty? Was the worst at launch. Everyone could solo to 50, you guessed it, at launch. Half the classes were pointless at launch also, especially every dps except Sorcerer and Ranger.
I hate to sound overly repetitive but it's the only way to cut through all the VG BS you hear on these forums. The game was a ghost town for a reason. Players will ignore bugs for the sake of a great game. VG was not a great game. Time to accept it or prove otherwise, in vain that is.
I'm here as a fan of EQ, not Vanguard. When I give my opinion of how combat in Pantheon should be, I recommend EQ, not Vanguard. Same for questing, level of challenge, soloability and virtually all other mechanics; EQ is the game to emulate, not Vanguard.
That said, you are still misrepresenting the real issues. This is coming from someone who only played Vanguard for 6 months, but not for most of the reasons you've blown out of proportion.
The graphics were great. Maybe your memory is foggy, but this was not mediocre in 2007.
Sorry you are still upset you couldn't run the game. The only thing vain here is you trying to prove your personal issues with the game were the problem, and not the botched launch. Then to prove it, you refer to things like missing content. You are arguing against yourself. MMOs don't recover from a bad launch (unless they completely recreate their game - FFXIV).
This game looks pretty sweet too right? The problem? It's World of Warcraft....
See I can post the best possible screenshots out of context too but the reality is most of the game looks nothing like this. Just like 95% of VG looked more like this:
Now that i've settled the one point you tried to make feel free to move on to the other seven you "strategically" ignored. Please try to convince us how the items weren't boring or the animations weren't delayed. What exactly did I misrepresent again? By all means.
Nothing was "out of context." That's what the game looked like, while your screen is what it looked like on a low res monitor on low settings.
You seem to have one purpose here, and its to sew discord; not talk about Pantheon. All of your points have been addressed, and we have told you we agree on many negative aspects of Vanguard. Yet, you seem to only want to rehash old drama to do what exactly? Highlight the developers past mistakes? Annoy people who liked Vanguard despite its differences from EQ?
It obviously upsets you, but you're wasting your time trying to eliminate the good inherited by Vanguard by fixating on the bad. No one, especially Visionary Realms, is going to be benefited by forgetting Vanguard just because TheBeasttt from mmorpg.com didn't like it. There are things to learn, both good and bad, even if you can't understand that.
I liked the 6 man party style that was in ffxi. Tank,healer, 4
dps's. Or could be tank, healer, support, 3 dps's. It could be anthing
really, but you needed at least 1 tank and 1 healer, the other 4 could
be anything really in ffxi. Sometimes even xp'd with just 4/5 peaple,
would be slower but still worked.
Hmm ?
I very often did 3 man groups in Vanguard, tank-healer-dps.
Some people even prefered that, saying it would offer a better challenge.
Stop feeding the troll guys. Thebeast is only here to spew negativity and not do anything productive.
As other people have already said, this game will embrace many of the things that vanguard did. If you don't like it, then stop wasting our time and your time because this is 100% not the game for you.
I was in VG beta and played it at virtually every major change. My concerns for Pantheon are legitimate, I could care less if you don't want to hear them or not. Grow some thicker skin m8
Its not about growing thicker skin, its about you continuing to waste your time trying to change something that isn't going to change. They've already stated with no uncertain terms that this game is being targeted towards people who like games like EQ, DAOC, Vanguard, Etc. They have stated categorically that they will not bend to meet the desires of people who aren't their target audience.
You are not their target audience
You need to accept that and move on.
Nobody here is saying vanguard was the height of perfection. We are
not stupid, we know the game had massive flaws at release. However, we
are smart enough to see past the trees for the forest. Clearly you are
not. You instead choose to continue to rail on the same tired arguments, over, and over, and over, and over. We're here to talk about what Vanguard contributes to the idea of an old school MMORPG. We are all patently aware of the flaws, Brad moreso than everyone else. We don't need you to "enlighten" us as if we're all a bunch of morons with our heads in the sand.
You are wasting your time, our time, and you are going to achieve nothing. So. Just. Stop.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Everyone could solo to 50, you guessed it, at launch.
We all know Vanguard launched too early, so whats your point of discussing the sorry state of Vanguard at that point, anyway ?
And everyone could solo to 55 in Vanguard, at any time, it just wasnt ever especially fast or fun. The only difference at launch was there was some bugs to speed this process considerably.
Its not about growing thicker skin, its about you continuing to waste your time trying to change something that isn't going to change. They've already stated with no uncertain terms that this game is being targeted towards people who like games like EQ, DAOC, Vanguard, Etc. They have stated categorically that they will not bend to meet the desires of people who aren't their target audience.
You are not their target audience
You need to accept that and move on.
Nobody here is saying vanguard was the height of perfection. We are
not stupid, we know the game had massive flaws at release. However, we
are smart enough to see past the trees for the forest. Clearly you are
not. You instead choose to continue to rail on the same tired arguments, over, and over, and over, and over. We're here to talk about what Vanguard contributes to the idea of an old school MMORPG. We are all patently aware of the flaws, Brad moreso than everyone else. We don't need you to "enlighten" us as if we're all a bunch of morons with our heads in the sand.
You are wasting your time, our time, and you are going to achieve nothing. So. Just. Stop.
Ffs the game isn't really in alpha 1 yet and you're trying to claim things can't be changed? I hope you're joking.....
You actually have on many occasion pretended like VG was the pinnacle of gaming, you're simply the vocal minority. For some reason when it comes to VG you guys abandon all logic, acting like the entire game didn't consist of a single server of 500 players(on a AAA title mind you). VG was not even supported by it's own target audience, even years later after many bug fixes. This is precisely because it was mostly an atrocious game through and through. For every one fanboi that wants Pantheon to be like VG there are a hundred EQ classic fans that want it to be nothing like VG.
Its not about growing thicker skin, its about you continuing to waste your time trying to change something that isn't going to change. They've already stated with no uncertain terms that this game is being targeted towards people who like games like EQ, DAOC, Vanguard, Etc. They have stated categorically that they will not bend to meet the desires of people who aren't their target audience.
You are not their target audience
You need to accept that and move on.
Nobody here is saying vanguard was the height of perfection. We are
not stupid, we know the game had massive flaws at release. However, we
are smart enough to see past the trees for the forest. Clearly you are
not. You instead choose to continue to rail on the same tired arguments, over, and over, and over, and over. We're here to talk about what Vanguard contributes to the idea of an old school MMORPG. We are all patently aware of the flaws, Brad moreso than everyone else. We don't need you to "enlighten" us as if we're all a bunch of morons with our heads in the sand.
You are wasting your time, our time, and you are going to achieve nothing. So. Just. Stop.
Ffs the game isn't really in alpha 1 yet and you're trying to claim things can't be changed? I hope you're joking.....
You actually have on many occasion pretended like VG was the pinnacle of gaming, you're simply the vocal minority. For some reason when it comes to VG you guys abandon all logic, acting like the entire game didn't consist of a single server of 500 players(on a AAA title mind you). VG was not even supported by it's own target audience, even years later after many bug fixes. This is precisely because it was mostly an atrocious game through and through. For every one fanboi that wants Pantheon to be like VG there are a hundred EQ classic fans that want it to be nothing like VG.
That is something you need to accept and move on.
You really just dont get it do you. It's not about CANT, its about WONT. How do you not understand that?
And no, i have not, "on many occasions" pretended like vanguard was the pinnacle of gaming. Feel free to search my post history and prove that. I have said many times it was a much better game than people gave it credit for, and that it wasn't nearly as bad as people like you seem to love to claim.
So, where are the 100's of people on here that want it to be nothing like VG? Cus frankly all i see are a bunch of EQ fans, who many of which happened to be VG fans. As a matter of fact, as far as this subforum, you are literally the only person who thinks VG was worthless.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
For the record, I only played Vanguard, but never EQ.
I'm not even that sure that I would have played EQ for long, given the shortcomings some people list about it.
That is why you an I clash from time to time on design concepts. I liked various things about Vanguard, but really dislike many of the mainstream features it had.
As for EQ's shortcomings, some saw it as that, others saw it as subtle enriching features. I was one of the people who when leaving EQ thought many things were "shortcomings", but after experiencing years of the progression and influence of mainstream focus, I began to realize that it was those "shortcomings" that made the game worth playing, gave meaning to the successes. I rarely experienced that in all the games over the years (there were some moments, but they were fleeting).
Ffs the game isn't really in alpha 1 yet and you're trying to claim things can't be changed? I hope you're joking.....
You actually have on many occasion pretended like VG was the pinnacle of gaming, you're simply the vocal minority. For some reason when it comes to VG you guys abandon all logic, acting like the entire game didn't consist of a single server of 500 players(on a AAA title mind you). VG was not even supported by it's own target audience, even years later after many bug fixes. This is precisely because it was mostly an atrocious game through and through. For every one fanboi that wants Pantheon to be like VG there are a hundred EQ classic fans that want it to be nothing like VG.
That is something you need to accept and move on.
You really just dont get it do you. It's not about CANT, its about WONT. How do you not understand that?
And no, i have not, "on many occasions" pretended like vanguard was the pinnacle of gaming. Feel free to search my post history and prove that. I have said many times it was a much better game than people gave it credit for, and that it wasn't nearly as bad as people like you seem to love to claim.
So, where are the 100's of people on here that want it to be nothing like VG? Cus frankly all i see are a bunch of EQ fans, who many of which happened to be VG fans. As a matter of fact, as far as this subforum, you are literally the only person who thinks VG was worthless.
Who are you to say they won't do any changes? A game in pre-alpha is always evolving and if they want to succeed they'll use EQ Classic as a model far before VG. You do realize that Project 1999 has more active players then Vanguard did in it's prime right? Yes you heard it right, an EQ Classic emulator beat out VG Live......Lmao if that doesn't tell the Pantheon devs everything they need to know I don't know what will.
Nearly the entirety of gaming-planet earth thought VG was subpar, EQ fans included. NOBODY PLAYED IT or did you already forget the one ghost town server it had, even soon after F2P? People voted with their feet like they always do. And EQ fans post how horrendous VG is all the time they just don't post it here. Most aren't going to come and argue with the few clueless fanboi's constantly spamming these sub-forums. You think they want to deal with overly delusional people like you, who pretend VG's two pro's make up for an ocean of con's?
The only reason I'm even bothering is because I'm hoping a Pantheon dev will see this and maybe be reminded not to believe the Vanguard hype. It was bad. It was really bad. And it in no way should be replicated.
Ffs the game isn't really in alpha 1 yet and you're trying to claim things can't be changed? I hope you're joking.....
You actually have on many occasion pretended like VG was the pinnacle of gaming, you're simply the vocal minority. For some reason when it comes to VG you guys abandon all logic, acting like the entire game didn't consist of a single server of 500 players(on a AAA title mind you). VG was not even supported by it's own target audience, even years later after many bug fixes. This is precisely because it was mostly an atrocious game through and through. For every one fanboi that wants Pantheon to be like VG there are a hundred EQ classic fans that want it to be nothing like VG.
That is something you need to accept and move on.
You really just dont get it do you. It's not about CANT, its about WONT. How do you not understand that?
And no, i have not, "on many occasions" pretended like vanguard was the pinnacle of gaming. Feel free to search my post history and prove that. I have said many times it was a much better game than people gave it credit for, and that it wasn't nearly as bad as people like you seem to love to claim.
So, where are the 100's of people on here that want it to be nothing like VG? Cus frankly all i see are a bunch of EQ fans, who many of which happened to be VG fans. As a matter of fact, as far as this subforum, you are literally the only person who thinks VG was worthless.
You do realize that Project 1999 has more active players then Vanguard did in it's prime right? Yes you heard it right, an EQ Classic emulator beat out VG Live......Lmao if that doesn't tell the Pantheon devs everything they need to know I don't know what will.
1. Was VG crafting subpar? Name the numerous games out there that did such better and why?
2. Are you saying that VG classes were not interesting and without depth in some of their designs? Please explain how other games were far more developed and in depth than VG classes. Please use examples and comparisons.
3. What other games provided completely separate development systems for crafting, diplomacy, and adventuring as VG did. Please show us other games that achieved similar segregated systems of development that were designed to be equal to that of the adventure portion of the game.
We await your most intelligent and logically reasoned answers.
Who are you to say they won't do any changes? A game in pre-alpha is always evolving and if they want to succeed they'll use EQ Classic as a model far before VG. You do realize that Project 1999 has more active players then Vanguard did in it's prime right? Yes you heard it right, an EQ Classic emulator beat out VG Live......Lmao if that doesn't tell the Pantheon devs everything they need to know I don't know what will.
Nearly the entirety of gaming-planet earth thought VG was subpar, EQ fans included. NOBODY PLAYED IT or did you already forget the one ghost town server it had, even soon after F2P? People voted with their feet like they always do. And EQ fans post how horrendous VG is all the time they just don't post it here. Most aren't going to come and argue with the few clueless fanboi's constantly spamming these sub-forums. You think they want to deal with overly delusional people like you, who pretend VG's two pro's make up for an ocean of con's?
The only reason I'm even bothering is because I'm hoping a Pantheon dev will see this and maybe be reminded not to believe the Vanguard hype. It was bad. It was really bad. And it in no way should be replicated.
Man i'm seriously tired of arguing this with you. Go read their website, read comments made by Brad and people from Visionary Realms. You literally can't seem to understand that im not arguing that things "couldn't" be changed, im arguing that they "won't" be changed. And when I say changed, I mean changed to things that you have personally posted as being what the game should be. Your ideas are counter to what the base tenets of this game are about. If you truly think than vanguard had literally NOTHING to offer to the genre, then you are NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE FOR THIS GAME.
I don't know how else to say this.
And to your last comment, which just goes to further support how ignorant you are on this project. A LARGE portion of the Pantheon team WAS THE VANGUARD TEAM.
"Among us are seasoned industry veterans who have worked on globally celebrated titles like EverQuest, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, and Star Wars Galaxies to name a few of the dozens of titles in our collective repertoire. We have personalities who have come from some of the top MMO gaming websites. We also have talented newcomers who have fresh ideas and unique insights. Together we are a highly diverse and driven team, ready to push into the next era of MMO gaming."
Edit: Just for reference, Vanguard failed primarily because the engine was not nearly optimized enough at release. Brad had posted some data a while back that basically over 90% of the people logged into the game once, spent less than an hour online, and never logged in again. People only do that if they can't physically play the game. I had a relatively high end system at release of vanguard and I could barely keep it above 30fps on max settings. So, the vast majority of people who played Vanguard never actually got to experience the games "ideas" and gameplay features. So you trying to constantly claim it failed because of the gameplay features is categorically false. It failed primarily because of an unoptimized engine, and secondarily due a to a lack of content.
Post edited by Hrimnir on
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
As other people have already said, this game will embrace many of the things that vanguard did. If you don't like it, then stop wasting our time and your time because this is 100% not the game for you.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
That said, you are still misrepresenting the real issues. This is coming from someone who only played Vanguard for 6 months, but not for most of the reasons you've blown out of proportion.
The graphics were great. Maybe your memory is foggy, but this was not mediocre in 2007.
Sorry you are still upset you couldn't run the game. The only thing vain here is you trying to prove your personal issues with the game were the problem, and not the botched launch. Then to prove it, you refer to things like missing content. You are arguing against yourself. MMOs don't recover from a bad launch (unless they completely recreate their game - FFXIV).
So far, all you can do is go on and on like Raymond Babbitt about how the game was bugged and broken.
The few of us arguing here aren't denying its weak points. The game had some horrible problems and balance issues, bugs etc... That kind of happens when you lose your backer and then are forced to release six months early.There are many things I can't stand about VG, even in its intended design, but to deny what it did do well with the complete dismissal you are making? Again, you are just trolling from a different angle as you did in the VR and Brad character attack threads.
Even aliances could be different numbers, parties were not set in stone back in ffxi.
And six months is quite optimistic. IIRC the words McQuaid used back then was "at least six months".
Lets try something new, lets only argue about subjects we have a clue about. Sound good?
This game looks pretty sweet too right? The problem? It's World of Warcraft....
See I can post the best possible screenshots out of context too but the reality is most of the game looks nothing like this. Just like 95% of VG looked more like this:
Now that i've settled the one point you tried to make feel free to move on to the other seven you "strategically" ignored. Please try to convince us how the items weren't boring or the animations weren't delayed. What exactly did I misrepresent again? By all means.
You seem to have one purpose here, and its to sew discord; not talk about Pantheon. All of your points have been addressed, and we have told you we agree on many negative aspects of Vanguard. Yet, you seem to only want to rehash old drama to do what exactly? Highlight the developers past mistakes? Annoy people who liked Vanguard despite its differences from EQ?
It obviously upsets you, but you're wasting your time trying to eliminate the good inherited by Vanguard by fixating on the bad. No one, especially Visionary Realms, is going to be benefited by forgetting Vanguard just because TheBeasttt from mmorpg.com didn't like it. There are things to learn, both good and bad, even if you can't understand that.
I very often did 3 man groups in Vanguard, tank-healer-dps.
Some people even prefered that, saying it would offer a better challenge.
You are not their target audience
You need to accept that and move on.
Nobody here is saying vanguard was the height of perfection. We are not stupid, we know the game had massive flaws at release. However, we are smart enough to see past the trees for the forest. Clearly you are not. You instead choose to continue to rail on the same tired arguments, over, and over, and over, and over. We're here to talk about what Vanguard contributes to the idea of an old school MMORPG. We are all patently aware of the flaws, Brad moreso than everyone else. We don't need you to "enlighten" us as if we're all a bunch of morons with our heads in the sand.
You are wasting your time, our time, and you are going to achieve nothing. So. Just. Stop.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
We all know Vanguard launched too early, so whats your point of discussing the sorry state of Vanguard at that point, anyway ?
And everyone could solo to 55 in Vanguard, at any time, it just wasnt ever especially fast or fun. The only difference at launch was there was some bugs to speed this process considerably.
You dont sound like you ever played much after release.
You actually have on many occasion pretended like VG was the pinnacle of gaming, you're simply the vocal minority. For some reason when it comes to VG you guys abandon all logic, acting like the entire game didn't consist of a single server of 500 players(on a AAA title mind you). VG was not even supported by it's own target audience, even years later after many bug fixes. This is precisely because it was mostly an atrocious game through and through. For every one fanboi that wants Pantheon to be like VG there are a hundred EQ classic fans that want it to be nothing like VG.
That is something you need to accept and move on.
And no, i have not, "on many occasions" pretended like vanguard was the pinnacle of gaming. Feel free to search my post history and prove that. I have said many times it was a much better game than people gave it credit for, and that it wasn't nearly as bad as people like you seem to love to claim.
So, where are the 100's of people on here that want it to be nothing like VG? Cus frankly all i see are a bunch of EQ fans, who many of which happened to be VG fans. As a matter of fact, as far as this subforum, you are literally the only person who thinks VG was worthless.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm not even that sure that I would have played EQ for long, given the shortcomings some people list about it.
That is why you an I clash from time to time on design concepts. I liked various things about Vanguard, but really dislike many of the mainstream features it had.
As for EQ's shortcomings, some saw it as that, others saw it as subtle enriching features. I was one of the people who when leaving EQ thought many things were "shortcomings", but after experiencing years of the progression and influence of mainstream focus, I began to realize that it was those "shortcomings" that made the game worth playing, gave meaning to the successes. I rarely experienced that in all the games over the years (there were some moments, but they were fleeting).
Nearly the entirety of gaming-planet earth thought VG was subpar, EQ fans included. NOBODY PLAYED IT or did you already forget the one ghost town server it had, even soon after F2P? People voted with their feet like they always do. And EQ fans post how horrendous VG is all the time they just don't post it here. Most aren't going to come and argue with the few clueless fanboi's constantly spamming these sub-forums. You think they want to deal with overly delusional people like you, who pretend VG's two pro's make up for an ocean of con's?
The only reason I'm even bothering is because I'm hoping a Pantheon dev will see this and maybe be reminded not to believe the Vanguard hype. It was bad. It was really bad. And it in no way should be replicated.
2. Are you saying that VG classes were not interesting and without depth in some of their designs? Please explain how other games were far more developed and in depth than VG classes. Please use examples and comparisons.
3. What other games provided completely separate development systems for crafting, diplomacy, and adventuring as VG did. Please show us other games that achieved similar segregated systems of development that were designed to be equal to that of the adventure portion of the game.
We await your most intelligent and logically reasoned answers.
Man i'm seriously tired of arguing this with you. Go read their website, read comments made by Brad and people from Visionary Realms. You literally can't seem to understand that im not arguing that things "couldn't" be changed, im arguing that they "won't" be changed. And when I say changed, I mean changed to things that you have personally posted as being what the game should be. Your ideas are counter to what the base tenets of this game are about. If you truly think than vanguard had literally NOTHING to offer to the genre, then you are NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE FOR THIS GAME.
I don't know how else to say this.
And to your last comment, which just goes to further support how ignorant you are on this project. A LARGE portion of the Pantheon team WAS THE VANGUARD TEAM.
https://pantheonmmo.com/about_us/visionary_realms/
"Among us are seasoned industry veterans who have worked on globally celebrated titles like EverQuest, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, and Star Wars Galaxies to name a few of the dozens of titles in our collective repertoire. We have personalities who have come from some of the top MMO gaming websites. We also have talented newcomers who have fresh ideas and unique insights. Together we are a highly diverse and driven team, ready to push into the next era of MMO gaming."
Edit: Just for reference, Vanguard failed primarily because the engine was not nearly optimized enough at release. Brad had posted some data a while back that basically over 90% of the people logged into the game once, spent less than an hour online, and never logged in again. People only do that if they can't physically play the game. I had a relatively high end system at release of vanguard and I could barely keep it above 30fps on max settings. So, the vast majority of people who played Vanguard never actually got to experience the games "ideas" and gameplay features. So you trying to constantly claim it failed because of the gameplay features is categorically false. It failed primarily because of an unoptimized engine, and secondarily due a to a lack of content.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche