There are no games out there with great game play (ie EQ style MMOs with proper risk/reward, etc..) so there is nothing for me to play. On the other side, there are tons of games out there with lots of attention to flashy graphics and hours upon hours of customization to looks, clothing, and many tools for such.
Every game I have enjoyed, that focused on game play was eventually destroyed to cater to those who wanted not a game, but were more interested in entertaining gimmicks such as playing dress up, spending hours emoting and playing with toys. Game play was made secondary to focus on such and so many people like me have nothing.
So while I understand people wanting a given look or certain options in play, if they yet again cater to that, spending time appealing to non-game play aspects it will be at the cost of game play systems because this team is not a huge one and every second of development time is choice of priority and value.
To say correlation does not make causation does not begin to explain this. This is more like non-correlation does not make causation.
As Raph Koster once pointed out: vanilla WoW, with every zones packed with quests leading you from one area to the next, was far more expensive than any previous MMORPG. That's right. All that hand holding and the loss of risk/reward was actually far more expensive to develop than the old games.
The idea that the loss of risk/reward was because the developers were spending all their resources on visuals makes no sense when high risk/reward systems are much cheaper to implement than modern hand-holding systems. These modern games that you claim are neglecting game play to develop visuals and toys are actually spending vastly more on game play than the old games you liked.
They are spending much more money to cater to the "entertainment" crowd, not game play. All that hand holding, follow the bouncing ball, easy instant level quest exp, pointless eye candy pets, and dress up gadgets are not game play, they are entertainment gimmicks.
The cost to implement all of those aspects are expensive, as you said, but they aren't game play, they are gimmicks. Game play are systems that the player is set up against to overcome, the focus of a game is to provide obstacles and challenges for the player to compete against be it intellectual, physical, or a combination of both. It is systems which require choices in character progression, processes of betterment to the character so it can be applied to overcome various difficulties in the game. That is game play, not little pets chasing you around, systems that allow you to move one items look to the next, or the close your eyes and roll your face over the keyboard techniques to win any given encounter.
Games today are nothing more than fad gimmicks, the boy bands of the game industry designed for the lowest common denominator to attend to an audience that doesn't like games as much as they like watching hand puppets making fart jokes.
My entire point though was that if they spend time on those things, it takes away from the actual systems that are actually game play and not just entertainment gimmicks.
My problem was you tried to present this narrative that MMOs had to
replace hard/high risk content with easy dumbed down content so they
could afford to add pets/costumes/character customization. That is like
saying I had to buy a Ferrari rather than a Toyota so I could afford my
house payment. The easy dumbed down modern content cost more to make
than the old school hard content.
Let's be honest, they added easy content because everyone saw WoW making money hand over fist and wanted to try and get a piece of it for themselves.
I dislike apples. I also
dislike jazz. That in no way means that people who like apples must
also like jazz. Assuming that the people who like easy dumbed down content are
also the people who like detailed character creation is also
ill advised. Looking at the poll your opinion certainly seems to be in
the minority. Though I suppose it's also possible that a fair amount of people who
aren't that interested in pantheon might have stopped by just to express
their opinion on a topic.
Though I suppose it's also possible that a fair amount of people who
aren't that interested in pantheon might have stopped by just to express
their opinion on a topic.
Well I cant rule that out, but just as you said - why would these people all be exclusively into character looks ?
When I see the looks of say WoW I rather get the impression there must be quite a number of people who dont care about that.
My problem was you tried to present this narrative that MMOs had to
replace hard/high risk content with easy dumbed down content so they
could afford to add pets/costumes/character customization. That is like
saying I had to buy a Ferrari rather than a Toyota so I could afford my
house payment. The easy dumbed down modern content cost more to make
than the old school hard content.
Let's be honest, they added easy content because everyone saw WoW making money hand over fist and wanted to try and get a piece of it for themselves.
I dislike apples. I also
dislike jazz. That in no way means that people who like apples must
also like jazz. Assuming that the people who like easy dumbed down content are
also the people who like detailed character creation is also
ill advised. Looking at the poll your opinion certainly seems to be in
the minority. Though I suppose it's also possible that a fair amount of people who
aren't that interested in pantheon might have stopped by just to express
their opinion on a topic.
That is not what I was implying. Mainstream chases the largest possible audience and it wastes development time and effort for entertainment gimmicks, not game play. MMOs chased a non-gamer market because a large portion of that market were people who didn't play games at all or played console games which were a completely different focus and audience.
They dumbed it down to appeal to "everyone" because that was the goal, more widgets sold. There are numerous video documentaries on the industry with developers talking about how they were told to streamline content and make game play easy in order to appeal to the widest market possible. Considering that the mainstream market is several times larger than the PC gamer market was, it is natural that they would be thrown to the side. This phenomenon isn't just an MMO thing, the entire gaming market has suffered the effect of mainstream entertainment design.
My point was that Pantheon isn't attending to this (read the tenants/features/brads blog), that their main focus is to game play, not entertainment gimmicks. Also, I don't disagree with the fact the entertainment gimmicks cost more, it is kind of my point and why focusing on such would take away from game play design. If game play design and focus is not the point of this game, then they might as well slap a mainstream label on it and all those looking for an old school EQ game can move on. Then we can watch Pantheon become yet another flavor of the month game before mainstream gets bored and moves on to another gimmick game. /shrug
As for the poll, are you really surprised that a mainstream game forum like MMORPG.com where Polls are posted for the entire site to see would show mainstream results? Also, the questions are poorly constructed because in reality, most people will have some attention to their looks, but that doesn't mean they want game play dismissed to achieve it.
Ok here is a hypothetical; You are playing a game you love. The race you like the looks of best is at a disadvantage of 2 mana regen - not world changing, but also not insignificant. Would you give up the 2 mana regen for the better look? Or are looks only important so far as you dont have to give up anything for them?
I would probably play the race and accept the disadvantage. I'm not a min maxer and more into playing the character. Came from PnP gaming, I don't think anyone thought of balance when making those games. It was jsut about choosing your way through a story. On the other side though, I'd think it was strange to have a penalty and not benefit to counter it. I guess you could say that it the benefit wasn't useful to my class, but that shouldn't be possible. There should be some advantage to being a stong wizard, or a fast one in some situations.
even if i was just a box on the floor i would care how that box looked, or if i only had one pixel to represent me ingame i would still like to pick the color of that one pixel, so yes looks are important to me, even if graphics are not.
I have been playing MMO's since Dark Age of Camelot and have always used the same quote: "It is not so much that I vanquish my foes, I MUST look GREAT doing it!!" ,Draculet Bloodbane.
That is a carrot right? It is important to you right? This is the perfect game play carrot to put in.
So, you make the game where you can only wear what you can use. Then... you must scour the game to find things that you think look good, but not just that. no... that would be too easy, you could find something you like and just wear that always, I mean... how is that a game? You win and never have to play again? Nah... this is a game, better keep it a game play element.
So... you constantly are searching for better gear with better looks. Sure, that level 1 robe was sweet!!! Man it caused many people to ask where you got it and to comment on how COOL you look, but alas you are now level 10, and darn it... that easy drop level 10 robe you picked up from that skeleton isn't as flashy as your level 1 gear. But.. wait... there is another player level 10 with a kick ass robe? You have seen tons of level 10s, some with nice gear, but nothing that caught your eye, but man... that level 10 robe he has would be awesome with that cool stylish level 10 cap you just got. You have to have it! Where did he get it? You don't care, you gotta have it, you will spend hours camping the mob that drops it! Hell or high water you will HAVE THAT ROBE!
- The animal races in Vanguard have been ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. They (a)
had no tail and (b) had no brainsize for a sentient race. Basically they looked like egypt
deities - animal head on human body. Yuck ! Please if you ever introduce animal races to Pantheon - give them realistic brain sizes for a sentient race, and a tail please. Like in The Elter Scrolls games.
- In Vanguard, Orcs couldnt look MALE !!!! Aka: having a strong chin. They always looked like these guards of Jabba the Hutt in Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. For comparison: Lineage 2 had awesome looking Orcs. I
absolutely loved the L2 Tyrant as a class, too (kind of a monk, but very
different from what EQ and VG had).
- Gnomes always had an ugly, square head. I never managed to make them look intelligent or cute. Ultimately it was just unbearably offputting for me. The general look I want with a Gnome is like female dwarves in Lineage 2.
- Oh and for the record, I have been very, very happy with the Vanguard Goblins. Ugly, but once could make them intelligent looking. Awesome ! Thats how Goblins should look like.
I would agree with the animal races in Vanguard, and likely one of the reasons none of my characters were of the animal races.
Orcs I would have to strongly disagree, as my Mage-stat-built Dreadknight Orc with robe-appearance slotted garb, was eventually my favorite character (originally the Dark Elf Necromancer was my favorite, which still remained among my top 3). He had the Cleric mace from the arena as his weapon (because it had both stats and was reasonable looks-wise as a staff). His title was "Warlock" so that people knew I was a caster, even though I did just fine tanking in groups (never got to tank in raids, so who knows how that woulda went).
My other favorite (of my top 3) was my female Wood Elf Phoenix (Hyat?, I think) Shaman, which not only did her job as a support-healing role, but kicked ass and could take a major beating in combat.
And as far as revealing outfits for characters go, I do not see why both sexes can not have equal opportunity in this area. Hell, I bought a succubus outfit in TERA for my castanic female cleric, because *yum*... AND among the main outfits I use on my Male Tideborn (Mermaid people, technically) Psychic (close to being a Necromancer class) in PWI, one of the ones I run him with often is a kilt-type to the ankles, bare chested with leather bands on his arms... and I have gotten some comments from the ladies for that *chuckle*...
The way I see it, it is your character to make appear as you want it to appear, male or female. In any mmorpg that has a strong community aspect to it, as well as potential for roleplaying, this is basically a must. The developers for appearances of characters, should simply deliver on the choices for each of us to do so, while truly prestigious (aka such as the epics of EQ) weapons, armors, artifacts should truly stand out.
And yes, I have literally taken a good 4 hours at times in just the character creation screens in various mmo-mmorpgs... And probably as much time "Previewing" for appearance slot items such as was able to be done in the auction / broker of Vanguard.
Hrimnir said:Realism is absolutely NOT an all or nothing switch.
It is for people avoiding hypocrisy.
Let a game without sin cast that particular stone. Since there's no such thing in the mmorpg universe, perhaps we need to suspend our disbelief and keep the realism in the holster.
Playing an mmo, at all, requires us to regularly accept dozens of ridiculously unrealistic premises every time we log in.
hypocrisy?
I think it's ok for the artists/creators in a video game to aim for realism but bend it a bit as they see fit.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I put my vote on - High to very high. Wont play characters of which I hate the looks. Might spent a lot of time on looks alone.
If I can I make my character similar to how I look in real life. That will say my height, face, hair, beard and so on. Even though all characters end up with a helmet and armor covering it all up I want to know that the character looks a bit like me.
If that is not possible I do care a lot about my armor and if possible to dye it and so on I do that. And if possible to transmog armor and weapons I am always on the hunt for that perfect look
I find it odd the number of arguments here. You see people say that how they look is very important, that they spend a lot of time and effort to achieve the look they want.
Seems to me that is your answer right there. That is, how people look should be a game play element. It seems rather stupid to take such a wonderful carrot and then turn it into some gimmick convenience with appearance slots that ignore game play.
You want to look that way, fine... go get that gear and put it on. You want to magically make yourself look some other way even though you are wearing something completely different, well... Maybe you aren't interested in a game, and just want to play dress up. Maybe they will come out with a Top Model MMO and people can flock to that?
I'm soundly in the "It's a big deal for me" group. It's the reason I don't play Minecraft, despite that I'd likely enjoy the gameplay. =P
And why I'm very happy to have better looking alternatives like 7 Days to Die and ARK.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I find it odd the number of arguments here. You see people say that how they look is very important, that they spend a lot of time and effort to achieve the look they want.
Seems to me that is your answer right there. That is, how people look should be a game play element. It seems rather stupid to take such a wonderful carrot and then turn it into some gimmick convenience with appearance slots that ignore game play.
You want to look that way, fine... go get that gear and put it on. You want to magically make yourself look some other way even though you are wearing something completely different, well... Maybe you aren't interested in a game, and just want to play dress up. Maybe they will come out with a Top Model MMO and people can flock to that?
Yeah, clearly that works so well. "Go get that gear and put it on" is a brilliant suggestion, until everything gets updated with new gear and the look you want leaves you horribly gimped, forcing you to either be unable to play the game, or go with the herd and wear whatever's current.
There's a good reason so many MMOs have added appearance slots. If you don't like it, well... it sucks to be you I guess, since they're not going anywhere.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I find it odd the number of arguments here. You see people say that how they look is very important, that they spend a lot of time and effort to achieve the look they want.
Seems to me that is your answer right there. That is, how people look should be a game play element. It seems rather stupid to take such a wonderful carrot and then turn it into some gimmick convenience with appearance slots that ignore game play.
You want to look that way, fine... go get that gear and put it on. You want to magically make yourself look some other way even though you are wearing something completely different, well... Maybe you aren't interested in a game, and just want to play dress up. Maybe they will come out with a Top Model MMO and people can flock to that?
Yeah, clearly that works so well. "Go get that gear and put it on" is a brilliant suggestion, until everything gets updated with new gear and the look you want leaves you horribly gimped, forcing you to either be unable to play the game, or go with the herd and wear whatever's current.
There's a good reason so many MMOs have added appearance slots. If you don't like it, well... it sucks to be you I guess, since they're not going anywhere.
What? You mean you have to go out and get new gear each time new content is released? /gasp
By the way, using "so many MMOs" isn't a support for your position here. In fact, it kind of works against you. Maybe read up on this game before you speak for everyone? Nah.... Mainstream on!
I find it odd the number of arguments here. You see people say that how they look is very important, that they spend a lot of time and effort to achieve the look they want.
Seems to me that is your answer right there. That is, how people look should be a game play element. It seems rather stupid to take such a wonderful carrot and then turn it into some gimmick convenience with appearance slots that ignore game play.
You want to look that way, fine... go get that gear and put it on. You want to magically make yourself look some other way even though you are wearing something completely different, well... Maybe you aren't interested in a game, and just want to play dress up. Maybe they will come out with a Top Model MMO and people can flock to that?
Yeah, clearly that works so well. "Go get that gear and put it on" is a brilliant suggestion, until everything gets updated with new gear and the look you want leaves you horribly gimped, forcing you to either be unable to play the game, or go with the herd and wear whatever's current.
There's a good reason so many MMOs have added appearance slots. If you don't like it, well... it sucks to be you I guess, since they're not going anywhere.
What? You mean you have to go out and get new gear each time new content is released? /gasp
By the way, using "so many MMOs" isn't a support for your position here. In fact, it kind of works against you. Maybe read up on this game before you speak for everyone? Nah.... Mainstream on!
You still go out and get new gear for the actual stats. But considering your trollish attitude, I'm fairly sure you're already well aware of that fact but keep on flaming anyway. Always nice to know the kind of poster you're dealing with.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
What? You mean you have to go out and get new gear each time new content is released? /gasp
By the way, using "so many MMOs" isn't a support for your position here. In fact, it kind of works against you. Maybe read up on this game before you speak for everyone? Nah.... Mainstream on!
You still go out and get new gear for the actual stats. But considering your trollish attitude, I'm fairly sure you're already well aware of that fact but keep on flaming anyway. Always nice to know the kind of poster you're dealing with.
Yes, you do, but you no longer have to be concerned about how it looks, there by removing any sort of continued game play element. Once you find your look, you are done as you are no longer required to continue that search.
Also, it is interesting that you come in and call me a troll when you were the one who dismissed my argument with "This is what the current mainstream MMOs do" which again is completely ignorant of this games goals.
You want a game play element to be removed so you can look as you want any time. That is, you put "convenience" above game play.
I am not saying you can't look as you want, you will continually have to earn that look which is what will make gear all the more valuable as you play. What I am against is dismissing game play so you can have a special magical layer of gear over your practical game play gear just so you can always look as you want.
I want a game, where you constantly earn your right to look as you want.
But hey, go ahead and tell me how mainstream games are all the rave, how it is about "your fun" and all that, I am sure it lines right up with this games focus. /boggle
Comments
Let's be honest, they added easy content because everyone saw WoW making money hand over fist and wanted to try and get a piece of it for themselves.
I dislike apples. I also dislike jazz. That in no way means that people who like apples must also like jazz. Assuming that the people who like easy dumbed down content are also the people who like detailed character creation is also ill advised. Looking at the poll your opinion certainly seems to be in the minority. Though I suppose it's also possible that a fair amount of people who aren't that interested in pantheon might have stopped by just to express their opinion on a topic.
When I see the looks of say WoW I rather get the impression there must be quite a number of people who dont care about that.
That is not what I was implying. Mainstream chases the largest possible audience and it wastes development time and effort for entertainment gimmicks, not game play. MMOs chased a non-gamer market because a large portion of that market were people who didn't play games at all or played console games which were a completely different focus and audience.
They dumbed it down to appeal to "everyone" because that was the goal, more widgets sold. There are numerous video documentaries on the industry with developers talking about how they were told to streamline content and make game play easy in order to appeal to the widest market possible. Considering that the mainstream market is several times larger than the PC gamer market was, it is natural that they would be thrown to the side. This phenomenon isn't just an MMO thing, the entire gaming market has suffered the effect of mainstream entertainment design.
My point was that Pantheon isn't attending to this (read the tenants/features/brads blog), that their main focus is to game play, not entertainment gimmicks. Also, I don't disagree with the fact the entertainment gimmicks cost more, it is kind of my point and why focusing on such would take away from game play design. If game play design and focus is not the point of this game, then they might as well slap a mainstream label on it and all those looking for an old school EQ game can move on. Then we can watch Pantheon become yet another flavor of the month game before mainstream gets bored and moves on to another gimmick game. /shrug
As for the poll, are you really surprised that a mainstream game forum like MMORPG.com where Polls are posted for the entire site to see would show mainstream results? Also, the questions are poorly constructed because in reality, most people will have some attention to their looks, but that doesn't mean they want game play dismissed to achieve it.
On the other side though, I'd think it was strange to have a penalty and not benefit to counter it. I guess you could say that it the benefit wasn't useful to my class, but that shouldn't be possible. There should be some advantage to being a stong wizard, or a fast one in some situations.
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
You're such a manly man.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Are there actually dolls out there that indeed have more than one outfit ?
That is a carrot right? It is important to you right? This is the perfect game play carrot to put in.
So, you make the game where you can only wear what you can use. Then... you must scour the game to find things that you think look good, but not just that. no... that would be too easy, you could find something you like and just wear that always, I mean... how is that a game? You win and never have to play again? Nah... this is a game, better keep it a game play element.
So... you constantly are searching for better gear with better looks. Sure, that level 1 robe was sweet!!! Man it caused many people to ask where you got it and to comment on how COOL you look, but alas you are now level 10, and darn it... that easy drop level 10 robe you picked up from that skeleton isn't as flashy as your level 1 gear. But.. wait... there is another player level 10 with a kick ass robe? You have seen tons of level 10s, some with nice gear, but nothing that caught your eye, but man... that level 10 robe he has would be awesome with that cool stylish level 10 cap you just got. You have to have it! Where did he get it? You don't care, you gotta have it, you will spend hours camping the mob that drops it! Hell or high water you will HAVE THAT ROBE!
Welcome to EQ, enjoy your stay!
A manly man doesnt care what other people think, especially if its stupid.
Thats why for example only real men can wear pink.
I would agree with the animal races in Vanguard, and likely one of the reasons none of my characters were of the animal races.
Orcs I would have to strongly disagree, as my Mage-stat-built Dreadknight Orc with robe-appearance slotted garb, was eventually my favorite character (originally the Dark Elf Necromancer was my favorite, which still remained among my top 3). He had the Cleric mace from the arena as his weapon (because it had both stats and was reasonable looks-wise as a staff). His title was "Warlock" so that people knew I was a caster, even though I did just fine tanking in groups (never got to tank in raids, so who knows how that woulda went).
My other favorite (of my top 3) was my female Wood Elf Phoenix (Hyat?, I think) Shaman, which not only did her job as a support-healing role, but kicked ass and could take a major beating in combat.
===================================================
And as far as revealing outfits for characters go, I do not see why both sexes can not have equal opportunity in this area. Hell, I bought a succubus outfit in TERA for my castanic female cleric, because *yum*... AND among the main outfits I use on my Male Tideborn (Mermaid people, technically) Psychic (close to being a Necromancer class) in PWI, one of the ones I run him with often is a kilt-type to the ankles, bare chested with leather bands on his arms... and I have gotten some comments from the ladies for that
The way I see it, it is your character to make appear as you want it to appear, male or female. In any mmorpg that has a strong community aspect to it, as well as potential for roleplaying, this is basically a must. The developers for appearances of characters, should simply deliver on the choices for each of us to do so, while truly prestigious (aka such as the epics of EQ) weapons, armors, artifacts should truly stand out.
And yes, I have literally taken a good 4 hours at times in just the character creation screens in various mmo-mmorpgs... And probably as much time "Previewing" for appearance slot items such as was able to be done in the auction / broker of Vanguard.
I think it's ok for the artists/creators in a video game to aim for realism but bend it a bit as they see fit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If I can I make my character similar to how I look in real life. That will say my height, face, hair, beard and so on. Even though all characters end up with a helmet and armor covering it all up I want to know that the character looks a bit like me.
If that is not possible I do care a lot about my armor and if possible to dye it and so on I do that. And if possible to transmog armor and weapons I am always on the hunt for that perfect look
Regards from Gilnidor
Seems to me that is your answer right there. That is, how people look should be a game play element. It seems rather stupid to take such a wonderful carrot and then turn it into some gimmick convenience with appearance slots that ignore game play.
You want to look that way, fine... go get that gear and put it on. You want to magically make yourself look some other way even though you are wearing something completely different, well... Maybe you aren't interested in a game, and just want to play dress up. Maybe they will come out with a Top Model MMO and people can flock to that?
And why I'm very happy to have better looking alternatives like 7 Days to Die and ARK.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
There's a good reason so many MMOs have added appearance slots. If you don't like it, well... it sucks to be you I guess, since they're not going anywhere.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
What? You mean you have to go out and get new gear each time new content is released? /gasp
By the way, using "so many MMOs" isn't a support for your position here. In fact, it kind of works against you. Maybe read up on this game before you speak for everyone? Nah.... Mainstream on!
Always nice to know the kind of poster you're dealing with.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I like DEPTH in my character creation and progression not visual sliders.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Also, it is interesting that you come in and call me a troll when you were the one who dismissed my argument with "This is what the current mainstream MMOs do" which again is completely ignorant of this games goals.
You want a game play element to be removed so you can look as you want any time. That is, you put "convenience" above game play.
I am not saying you can't look as you want, you will continually have to earn that look which is what will make gear all the more valuable as you play. What I am against is dismissing game play so you can have a special magical layer of gear over your practical game play gear just so you can always look as you want.
I want a game, where you constantly earn your right to look as you want.
But hey, go ahead and tell me how mainstream games are all the rave, how it is about "your fun" and all that, I am sure it lines right up with this games focus. /boggle