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Elder Scrolls Online | How Class Imbalance Works for ESO | MMORPG

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited November 2015 in News & Features Discussion

imageElder Scrolls Online | How Class Imbalance Works for ESO | MMORPG

The Elder Scrolls Online has to be one of the most unbalanced games ever to be designed. Dragonknights have a high DPS value with an impressive amount of survivability options. Sorcerers are probably the most annoying classes to fight against with their easy escape abilities. Nightblades have their high burst damage, doesn’t matter if they’re melee range or shooting you from a distance, and Templars are the worst of them all.

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Comments

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2015
    While there are “ideal” builds not every player is going to play them. Those unique builds could kill an ideal build if played strategically. It’s no longer just about who shot first, who has the quicker trigger finger.

    Oh please...if it was so easy to counter the build, it wouldn't be considered "ideal" build.

    I have no problem with your liking of ESO but the article is just one big logical inconsistence and fallacy.

    Imbalance does not work, just in mass PVP it matters not.
  • husscoolhusscool Member UncommonPosts: 85
    Imbalance offers the chance for unskilled players to triumph over far better and more knowledgeable players. It is not good gameplay nor is it something you should celebrate in any MMO. Balance weeds out the crap players that think they can step into an arena with someone who has been playing for years and learned the game inside out. Imbalance gives that player a chance to succeed. In otherwords, it is bullshit.
  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    I'm not a PvP player, but love all the options ESO gives the player in terms of augmenting your character.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    DAoC was the most fun pvp I have ever played until they made gods out of some with a long quest line.   The strength of DAoC was in unbalanced classes.  Every fight was a rock, paper, scissors approach.  You actually had to think in a fight.  That is a GOOD thing in ESO.
  • ReesRacerReesRacer Member UncommonPosts: 179
    Of course the hard-core PvP and theory-crafters have their "ideal" builds. I've been messing about with ESO builds since beta, and used to find the imbalance annoying. I've since embraced it just as the author has. After reading many forum posts and discussions with my rather large guild/gaming community, I've concluded that just about anything is pretty viable in the hands of a semi-competent casual player (like I am). Presently working on my High-Elf heavy armour Sorcerer/2h-weapon character. Is it ideal? Probably not. But it is fun, and that's why I play.
  • ScalplessScalpless Member UncommonPosts: 1,426
    Weird article. It seems to imply that classes being different is imbalance, but that's not what "imbalance" means.
  • yaminsuxyaminsux Member UncommonPosts: 973
    Scalpless said:
    Weird article. It seems to imply that classes being different is imbalance, but that's not what "imbalance" means.
    That's what the general consensus are, in any game.
  • meonthissitemeonthissite Member UncommonPosts: 917
    The imbalance isn't in PVP it's in PVE, the PVPers are doing what they've always done, make demands on the developers which has historically been terrible considering they often exaggerate what is really happening in PVP. Because of this we have improperly balanced PVE skills, weak bow for example when have you ever known something to survive arrow after arrow after arrow and not die, weak melee, and the focus to be all about magic. It's really sad. The next patch they need to come out with is to make sure that all DoTs scale properly whether you're stamina health or magicka built, they need to restore the damage of the bow and melee damage scaling, they need to improve the shield blocking so it's on the level of the magicka shield spells. Until they do these things this game's PVE will continue to suffer at the hands of loud and obnoxious newbs in PVP making demands.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    meonthissite said:
    The imbalance isn't in PVP it's in PVE, the PVPers are doing what they've always done, make demands on the developers which has historically been terrible considering they often exaggerate what is really happening in PVP. Because of this we have improperly balanced PVE skills, weak bow for example when have you ever known something to survive arrow after arrow after arrow and not die, weak melee, and the focus to be all about magic. It's really sad. The next patch they need to come out with is to make sure that all DoTs scale properly whether you're stamina health or magicka built, they need to restore the damage of the bow and melee damage scaling, they need to improve the shield blocking so it's on the level of the magicka shield spells. Until they do these things this game's PVE will continue to suffer at the hands of loud and obnoxious newbs in PVP making demands.
    I'm not sure if the irony in your post is intentional or not.

    I'm an altholic with two accounts so I can play different versions of all the classes. You talk dismissively about PVPers' exaggerated demands and then you go on to exaggerate yourself about bows and melee. It reads almost like Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Poison Injection and Focused Aim don't exist.

    Thanks for the amusing post :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Iselin said:
    meonthissite said:
    The imbalance isn't in PVP it's in PVE, the PVPers are doing what they've always done, make demands on the developers which has historically been terrible considering they often exaggerate what is really happening in PVP. Because of this we have improperly balanced PVE skills, weak bow for example when have you ever known something to survive arrow after arrow after arrow and not die, weak melee, and the focus to be all about magic. It's really sad. The next patch they need to come out with is to make sure that all DoTs scale properly whether you're stamina health or magicka built, they need to restore the damage of the bow and melee damage scaling, they need to improve the shield blocking so it's on the level of the magicka shield spells. Until they do these things this game's PVE will continue to suffer at the hands of loud and obnoxious newbs in PVP making demands.
    I'm not sure if the irony in your post is intentional or not.

    I'm an altholic with two accounts so I can play different versions of all the classes. You talk dismissively about PVPers' exaggerated demands and then you go on to exaggerate yourself about bows and melee. It reads almost like Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Poison Injection and Focused Aim don't exist.

    Thanks for the amusing post :)
    It feels the same way to me as a PvE'er.  Most of the changes I experience are results of complaints from trying to balance PvP.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Octagon7711 said:
    Iselin said:
    meonthissite said:
    The imbalance isn't in PVP it's in PVE, the PVPers are doing what they've always done, make demands on the developers which has historically been terrible considering they often exaggerate what is really happening in PVP. Because of this we have improperly balanced PVE skills, weak bow for example when have you ever known something to survive arrow after arrow after arrow and not die, weak melee, and the focus to be all about magic. It's really sad. The next patch they need to come out with is to make sure that all DoTs scale properly whether you're stamina health or magicka built, they need to restore the damage of the bow and melee damage scaling, they need to improve the shield blocking so it's on the level of the magicka shield spells. Until they do these things this game's PVE will continue to suffer at the hands of loud and obnoxious newbs in PVP making demands.
    I'm not sure if the irony in your post is intentional or not.

    I'm an altholic with two accounts so I can play different versions of all the classes. You talk dismissively about PVPers' exaggerated demands and then you go on to exaggerate yourself about bows and melee. It reads almost like Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Poison Injection and Focused Aim don't exist.

    Thanks for the amusing post :)
    It feels the same way to me as a PvE'er.  Most of the changes I experience are results of complaints from trying to balance PvP.  
    I know. But both of you guys must know that this is MMORPG cliche #1. PVPers blame PVErs for all the ills of the world and the PVErs do likewise.

    I do both PVP and PVE... with stamina and magicka verssions of all 4 classes using every weapon in the game. From time to time some FOTM builds feel a lot better than others... and then they get tweaked.

    That's just life in the endless balancing cycle.

    But when someone makes a statement like "obnoxious newbs in PVP making demands" that just tells me they've chosen to follow the PVE faith... Me? I'm an agnostic.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 305
    yaminsux said:
    Scalpless said:
    Weird article. It seems to imply that classes being different is imbalance, but that's not what "imbalance" means.
    That's what the general consensus are, in any game.
    Uhm no so bravo for you for not understanding what imbalance is like the author of the article. different is never been considered imbalanced. Unbalanced has to do with character power which is the sum of a myriad of variables put together. When vampires could take on and defeat 30 players at once that was imbalance. Also for the author you should get a deeper understanding of the things you chose to right about if you plan to take the role of "expert" for example you fail to understand DPS and its applications. You can have massive DPS numbers but if you cant apply the dps because you are in a solo arena it doesnt mean you need to fix a class for a lack of dps and clear times, another class actually has lower dps but is able to apply it consistently might look superior dps class but it isnt it is just able to apply the dps in the given scenario. as the story goes I dont care what dps your build is capable of because you are always dead and thus you are doing zero dps...
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Awesome article Ryan! This is why I love eso's skil system and comabt. So many different ways to play. 2 years in and I'm making new freaking builds. I'm still seeing new builds. I couldn't ask for more.
  • SatyrosSatyros Member UncommonPosts: 156
    Balance has killed creativity in modern games. There is so much a developer can do if the game i supposed to be perfectly balanced and every class equally efficient in all senarios. As long as a specific build is not a win-button against anyone, anytime, balance should not be a concern.
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    PvP is about taking the game and playing it like a sandwich with all the meat pulled out if it. You just take the meta view and make the game dance at its most meaningless and surface manner. I like pvp, but I don't pretend it is anything but an exercise in who can act first with the best build, or who has the most people in their zerg.
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • Jonnyp2Jonnyp2 Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Archlyte said:
    PvP is about taking the game and playing it like a sandwich with all the meat pulled out if it. You just take the meta view and make the game dance at its most meaningless and surface manner. I like pvp, but I don't pretend it is anything but an exercise in who can act first with the best build, or who has the most people in their zerg.
    That's honestly taking it way too far.  

    The thing about mmo pvp is that nobody plays even close to flawlessly, yet everyone constantly complains about perceived imbalances.  This stays consistent across all level of players, only the complaints are massively different.  That's not to say that mmo pvp is balanced, it often is not.  Just the majority of players would rather blame anything other than themselves for their own shortcomings.
  • nimander99nimander99 Member UncommonPosts: 288
    Balance is a myth, it only exists in fps with no items or levels affecting skills.
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,030
    edited November 2015

    The more you make a massively online experience solo the more balance issues will become apparent. Fact of the internet. The fault lies with tying advancement to timed progression instead of simply wanting players to participate.

    The devs are chasing their tail endlessly trying to balance while constructing their game to be equal for everyone. The very moment they decide to make an mmo they need to accept that when a player chooses a class they are choosing an advantage along with a disadvantage and design their game around this principle. Very few games are doing this however.

    You stay sassy!

  • NomadMorlockNomadMorlock Member UncommonPosts: 815
    This is one of the reasons I love ESO. There are so many possibilities for builds and variations to counter other builds it's actually very rock/paper/scissors but on a more epic scale. You can have bad builds. The classes are not perfectly balanced. The weapons and armor choices aren't perfectly balanced. You however can get very creative and this adds more enjoyment to developing your character long term. Easy to get started, hard to master. Lot's of things to tweak, try, and combine!
    The Differently Geared 
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Class balance is an art.  A lot of games simply do buff and nurf cycles.  I think a good game has all the classes equally represented in the stats.  Then there's company politics and devs who really like a class and are willing to fight for it in the meetings, as opposed to devs who work on classes they care little to nothing for.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,030
    Octagon7711 said:
    Class balance is an art.  A lot of games simply do buff and nurf cycles.  I think a good game has all the classes equally represented in the stats.  Then there's company politics and devs who really like a class and are willing to fight for it in the meetings, as opposed to devs who work on classes they care little to nothing for.
    A very big component to how long it takes to balance is the engine and how the game itself is designed. Very few offer on the fly adjustments. I was shocked at how difficult it is for many mmos to apply changes. The development time and complexity in deployment was rather staggering.

    Many developers entered into designing the game without placing much importance on how easy it would be to make changes (either live or through patching). WAR is one example where even minor changes would take the devs weeks to deploy. The main engine developer (same for WAR) for CU has told this story and his frustrations which is entirely why his new engine is designed from the ground up to allow fast and easy changes. Time is money.

    You stay sassy!

  • HabitualFrogStompHabitualFrogStomp Member UncommonPosts: 370
    edited November 2015
    Dragonknights were gods in PVP and PVE for the first year after launch. Could I beat them on my NB, sure. Did I likewise see the same DK's able to kill a team of about 5 or more inexperienced players? Yes. Could I have beaten those same 5 players by myself? Probably not.

     Yes different classes are good at different things, and that is important. But when people talk about something being OP they generally mean classes doing things they should not be able to. I should be able to kill a DK who honestly isn't very good. He shouldn't be able to kill a decent sized group of players by himself just because they're equally as bad as he is. That is giving far too much power to one single class, and ZOS did literally nothing about it for the first year out of launch.

    I don't have time for games who have developers who are so far out of touch with their games.
  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    Jonnyp2 said:

    Archlyte said:
    PvP is about taking the game and playing it like a sandwich with all the meat pulled out if it. You just take the meta view and make the game dance at its most meaningless and surface manner. I like pvp, but I don't pretend it is anything but an exercise in who can act first with the best build, or who has the most people in their zerg.

    That's honestly taking it way too far.  

    The thing about mmo pvp is that nobody plays even close to flawlessly, yet everyone constantly complains about perceived imbalances.  This stays consistent across all level of players, only the complaints are massively different.  That's not to say that mmo pvp is balanced, it often is not.  Just the majority of players would rather blame anything other than themselves for their own shortcomings.


    I agree with what you said but i don't see how it relates to my post. I'm saying that pvp is really only about numbers and twitch. Reading more in is silly given the average time to kill in MMORPG combat these days
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • ESO_LAGESO_LAG Member UncommonPosts: 59
    edited November 2015
    The game is not balanced at all currently @SBFord ;
  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Member UncommonPosts: 279
    ESO_LAG said:
    The game is not balanced at all currently @SBFord ;
    The OP said said as much. MMO's do not need to be balanced. It is a concept called teamwork. Not everything needs to be PvP balanced. Go play chess if you want complete balance
    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
    -->  http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs  <--
    Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
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