Ok I get it. But is there a big problem if you can't wear your best gear for a week? (In the worst case scenario)
In EQ old days what caused stress and aggravation was the fact that if you didn't recover your corpse you would lose all of your possessions in your corpse............permanently. With that big source of stress gone, I struggle to understand why not wearing your best gear for a week is so distressing.
Ok I get it. But is there a big problem if you can't wear your best gear for a week? (In the worst case scenario)
In EQ old days what caused stress and aggravation was the fact that if you didn't recover your corpse you would lose all of your possessions in your corpse............permanently. With that big source of stress gone, I struggle to understand why not wearing your best gear for a week is so distressing.
Yes, that was the biggest push that caused many late night recoveries because you didn't know if you were going to be able to get a group or the right people to help recover the next day and losing your corpse with all your gear was not an acceptable option. If I knew that one week later, I could get my corpse with all my gear? Heck, that would have been preferable to some of the nasty late nights I spent in recovery.
I prefer
no exp back unless you get a rez and how much you get back depends on
the rez type of spell and level cast on you. That is, if you loot your
corpse without a rez, no exp.
That would suck big time for solist, though, and unlike EQ Pantheon is supposed to allow some solo play.
We've talked about this quite a few times here, but I agree that
instead of permanent item loss, there should be a graveyard/shrine type
of system where you can retrieve your corpse. I'd say 2 days is about
right. Seven days seems long to me. For anyone who actually wants to
play, 2 days is long enough. More becomes a grief mechanic.
Well ... one or two days, whatever.
You should be able to get your gear back even if you died just before you have to leave for a three week vacation.
It should just cost ingame money to get your gear back if you indeed delay getting your corpse back until the time it despawns.
I prefer
no exp back unless you get a rez and how much you get back depends on
the rez type of spell and level cast on you. That is, if you loot your
corpse without a rez, no exp.
That would suck big time for solist, though, and unlike EQ Pantheon is supposed to allow some solo play.
Not really. Pantheon is taking the same stance that EQ did, they are designing a socially dependent game, but won't discourage soloing if people find ways to do it (like they did in EQ). Also, the game is supposed to be class interdependent and such a feature of reliance is right in line with that goal. Point is, soloing isn't being catered to, so those who choose to do it will have to weight the risk/reward of such a venture.
edit:
The FAQ states:
Will you be able to solo in Pantheon?
Yes, while most content will be
designed for groups, there will typically also be content that is soloable.
Some classes may solo better than other classes.
If you read Brad's discussion on this in the pod casts and various posts he has done on such topics in the past, it is a bit more clear. Basically though what it is saying is that the game is designed for groups, but some content will be "soloable". That does not mean the content is "designed" for solo, merely that some classes will be able to solo just as they did in EQ.
Brad, I think you need to be a bit more clear on the FAQ concerning this as this discussion is a perfect example of how someone misinterpreted it to mean that the game would be "designing" solo content and so their expectation of penalty features also expected to be "designed" with that in mind. This is one of those cases where assumptions can lead to more assumptions and produce expectations that are not part of the goals.
It should just cost ingame money to get your gear back if you indeed delay getting your corpse back until the time it despawns.
Money isn't a proper deterrent as has been shown in numerous games over the years who have implemented it. It is an "annoyance" at best and eventually through currency devaluation through the AH and gold selling, becomes irrelevant. If death does not hurt, it is a pointless process of play. It has to have meaning, real meaning that causes someone fear while playing. If it does not, it again.. is meaningless.
It only sucks in a SOE game because they didn't know how to do anything except make altaholics.
If they allowed you to learn other classes on the same player,as would make sense,then you could simply go back and stealth and recover yourself easily ,well as long as you were smart enough to die somewhere rather safe. Then again SOE also liked to make their dungeons at times way over the top crowded,far too many mobs in one area and it looked fake and most of the time those mobs never even moved,so no chance to wait for an opening. I have no problem with penalties,it was not stressful to me at all,i died lost my gear,no big deal,it's just a game.All that needed to happen was not rely on instances/dungeons all the time and not litter your zones with so many mobs,open world content and safe areas to camp,then players would not be worried about easily dying all the time.
On that note,i do not want a mezzer for every fight or dungeon or content,i want combat to look and feel realistic and not have 20 mobs all running at me and suppose to believe that is realistic that my Tank survived so many attacks.I just like the game design to make sense.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It only sucks in a SOE game because they didn't know how to do anything except make altaholics.
If they allowed you to learn other classes on the same player,as would make sense,then you could simply go back and stealth and recover yourself easily ,well as long as you were smart enough to die somewhere rather safe. Then again SOE also liked to make their dungeons at times way over the top crowded,far too many mobs in one area and it looked fake and most of the time those mobs never even moved,so no chance to wait for an opening. I have no problem with penalties,it was not stressful to me at all,i died lost my gear,no big deal,it's just a game.All that needed to happen was not rely on instances/dungeons all the time and not litter your zones with so many mobs,open world content and safe areas to camp,then players would not be worried about easily dying all the time.
On that note,i do not want a mezzer for every fight or dungeon or content,i want combat to look and feel realistic and not have 20 mobs all running at me and suppose to believe that is realistic that my Tank survived so many attacks.I just like the game design to make sense.
So, you want every class to be able to recover on their own by making every class homogenized so they can all do the same things. You want dungeons to have all the trash removed so you can more easily get around. You want designed safe areas for people to camp so players would not have the risk of dying all the time. Lastly you want content to be designed so that crowd control isn't needed so encounters are more easily manageable.
1. It is a group reliant game, having to rely on another for recovery is the point, not a solo game where every class becomes the same class because people can't stand the idea of having to rely on another or suffer from a massive case of class envy and greener syndrome.
2. Dungeons are supposed to be dangerous and cause even a solid group to be in danger of losing. Having lots of mobs where the average player can not get around easily is the point. Requiring a group to spend real effort and time to get deep into the dungeon with much risk if they fail is the point.
3. Having to manage resources, constantly be aware of pathers, roamers, or something popping on your "safe spot" is the point. Dungeons and the wild lands of Pantheon are not shopping malls where people setup in the food court while they comfortably shop at their leisure. Constantly looking over your shoulder, constantly being nervous about being attacked, and never being able to truly find a "safe place" is the point.
4. Having to rely on another class to lock down additional mobs be it through mezzing, rooting, fearing, etc.. so you can be able to handle a given encounter is the point. Crowd control that deals with constant adds, pathers, pops, etc... is the point of play.
All of those things are what made EQ what it was. When people are thinking about the good of EQ, what made it so important in our memories, it is the features that made us earn our play and it is why we are tired of the games today, because they do many of the things you think this game should be doing.
I am just interested, because I have noticed a trend in some of your discussions, but... have you read the Tenants and features list for this game? What their goals are and why they are making Pantheon?
I prefer
no exp back unless you get a rez and how much you get back depends on
the rez type of spell and level cast on you. That is, if you loot your
corpse without a rez, no exp.
That would suck big time for solist, though, and unlike EQ Pantheon is supposed to allow some solo play.
Just because you may be the type of person that enjoys playing solo (I can be one of those people at times). Does not mean that you shouldn't have to ask for assistance from other players at times. I'm all for a harsher death penalty than what most games have at this point. I actually enjoyed the feeling that I got when I put myself in a risky situation in EQ.
I prefer
no exp back unless you get a rez and how much you get back depends on
the rez type of spell and level cast on you. That is, if you loot your
corpse without a rez, no exp.
That would suck big time for solist, though, and unlike EQ Pantheon is supposed to allow some solo play.
Just because you may be the type of person that enjoys playing solo (I can be one of those people at times). Does not mean that you shouldn't have to ask for assistance from other players at times. I'm all for a harsher death penalty than what most games have at this point. I actually enjoyed the feeling that I got when I put myself in a risky situation in EQ.
Yep and many times it was that risk when soloing that made success in doing all the more rewarding.
If the death penalty seems fair or reasonable, then it's the wrong death penalty. It should feel unfair and unreasonable.
That is what brought EQ players together originally.
If you saw some guy take a beat down or get himself in a bind, you helped him. Not just because you hope he helps you another day. But because it was the players united against the many unfair things about the game. O.o
You port into a zone and and are deposited right underneath a dragon. Instant death.
You get trained by a dozen mobs pulled by some newbie.
You go to run a dungeon and someone already cleared it out.
The game was full of things that were unfair. But again, that was what created a bond among the players.
If you make Pantheon fair, what you get is EQ II.
This is the type of game where you have to break it to make it work.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
@ Sinist Your reply to Wizardry seems pretty accurate for the most part. The fiirst part about homogonized classes isnt what he was talking about. Hes talking about switching classes on one char as opposed to switching to an alt. You could do either in XI. But when you switched classes on the same character you could only do it in town and every class was geared and leveled 1 to 75 independently.
So basically if you applied this to a corpse run in eq. You might die in a dungeon on your warrior, go back with a rogue and stealth to your body to loot it. Assuming your rogue was high enough level to even do it. Assuming you could even do that in the first place in EQ, the only difference would be using alts instead. IF you couldnt do it in EQ with alts then its a moot point I guess. That being said while I have no problem with switching classes on same character (doesnt matter cuz Brad said it ain happening). I do have a problem if you can solo corpse loot into a dungeon or raid..... though open world should be fine if careful
@ Sinist Your reply to Wizardry seems pretty accurate for the most part. The fiirst part about homogonized classes isnt what he was talking about. Hes talking about switching classes on one char as opposed to switching to an alt. You could do either in XI. But when you switched classes on the same character you could only do it in town and every class was geared and leveled 1 to 75 independently.
So basically if you applied this to a corpse run in eq. You might die in a dungeon on your warrior, go back with a rogue and stealth to your body to loot it. Assuming your rogue was high enough level to even do it. Assuming you could even do that in the first place in EQ, the only difference would be using alts instead. IF you couldnt do it in EQ with alts then its a moot point I guess. That being said while I have no problem with switching classes on same character (doesnt matter cuz Brad said it ain happening). I do have a problem if you can solo corpse loot into a dungeon or raid..... though open world should be fine if careful
Ah, ok that makes sense now based on what he was saying.
Well, the thing is corpse recovery will be easier with some classes as opposed to others, so "technically" if he were to have an alt of similar level to retrieve the corpse, it would be possible. There are classes that have skills to be able to achieve such (classes that can sneak or feign death, cast invis, etc...), but if VR does this right, trying to level an alt up with your main will not be something simple and easily done. Most people didn't really alt much past the first 10 levels in EQ (early release and expansions) because it really took so much time and effort to level a character and trying to do two was... a bit too much effort for most.
Also, just because classes have some abilities to circumvent some mobs doesn't mean it will happen consistently. Even EQ put in see invis mobs, and populated some rooms with multiple casters which would chain their casts to the point where there was no safe way to time a feign death (if a caster hit you with a spell after you feigned death, it would break the ability and the mob would re-aggro). So while there are classes that have skills, not everything is going to be an easy recovery, even with them (though a spell like "summon corpse") would certainly solve that problem.
CRs will be easier for some, hell for others, but with such benefits there are always trade offs. Every class had its unique benefits and set backs, I think Pantheon will be no different.
I see. And thats honestly the way it should be. Some classes cant and some classes can. XI didnt have corpse runs just massive xp penalties and deleveling. So people would rather get a Raise 3 (biggest xp return) than except a R1 or return to thier homepoint and eat it. As to summon corpse. We had nothing like that. All though Blackmage did get Tractor, which is exactly like it sounds. You could pull a dead person to your location (limited reach) as to safely raise them. So if you were in jeopardy of a delevel. And in a bad area. You might have a small group head out with a whitemage and a blackmage so they could get to you then pull you to a safe spot then Raise 3 you. The only thing I really hated about the system is how some people would denand Raise 3s even durring events where timing was critical. And if they couldnt get a raise theyd not return. I ate so many delevels for the cause (dungeons/raids/missions) it wasnt even funny. And then you get some shit that pitches a fit and ruins the encounter because of a few thousand xp......... Later on my guild started kicking people that did this shit. I can understand in a bad xp party. But in the middle of an endgame event? Get the fuck out!
I see. And thats honestly the way it should be. Some classes cant and some classes can. XI didnt have corpse runs just massive xp penalties and deleveling. So people would rather get a Raise 3 (biggest xp return) than except a R1 or return to thier homepoint and eat it. As to summon corpse. We had nothing like that. All though Blackmage did get Tractor, which is exactly like it sounds. You could pull a dead person to your location (limited reach) as to safely raise them. So if you were in jeopardy of a delevel. And in a bad area. You might have a small group head out with a whitemage and a blackmage so they could get to you then pull you to a safe spot then Raise 3 you. The only thing I really hated about the system is how some people would denand Raise 3s even durring events where timing was critical. And if they couldnt get a raise theyd not return. I ate so many delevels for the cause (dungeons/raids/missions) it wasnt even funny. And then you get some shit that pitches a fit and ruins the encounter because of a few thousand xp......... Later on my guild started kicking people that did this shit. I can understand in a bad xp party. But in the middle of an endgame event? Get the fuck out!
I am no stranger to the drama of people when it came to EXP in raids. I was a monk, I died all the time, lost levels, was in a constant flux of trying to gain it back because I couldn't solo.
I remember one time another guild had me out on loan because their monk was sick and I was pulling Hate. I died a ton of times during the raid, even lost a level in the process, but I kept going because.. well... that is the game that is the class...
Well, we had a bad wipe during one of the fights and a wizard (who could quad kite solo for exp btw) started whining like I had killed his first born and was pretty insulting. I mean, he died ONCE while I had died multiple times that raid and de-leveled as I mentioned. I wasn't going to say a word (I was the guest this raid helping them, it wasn't my place to interfere), but the guild leader kicked him from not only the raid, but then the guild and wrote a scathing response on the forums which resulted in him being black listed (my guild and his were pretty well known on our server).
I had no tolerance for that sort of thing in my guild. I was the raid leader and I was completely nice and understanding to most things, but there was a time and place. If someone whined, bitched, moaned on a raid, it was a quick kick from the raid. I always ran a tight ship, with a chain of command and a clear means for someone to pass up a suggestion or grievance, but if someone ignored that, they were gone. There just wasn't time for that crap and it wasn't fair to all the other players to have to deal with that drama.
I would like to see Pantheon strive to be what EQ was for me, a place where I could actually live a life based on fantasy outside of RL. The more realistic MMO's can get without cheapening the mechanics the better.
Death in Real-Life is absolute, it is the #1 motivator for almost all things. EQ was the last game I played that had a death penalty that made me almost as afraid of dying in the game in a dangerous location as I was to die IRL. It was a giant motivating factor to continue to survive, and progress.
When I played EQ2 recently, there was absolutely no penalty for death, and in some cases, it actually saved you a large amount of time... this is antithetical to what death should be.
#1 I don't want to see any ghosting back to your body, or reviving nearby. A resurrection from a priest should be possible, but it should also be a large commitment from that priest, so that its not just oops lol I died rez me.
#2 I should leave my gear on my body, and I should not be able to access that gear for at least 48 hours unless I recover my body.
#3 Experience loss, debt is an insufficient motivation to not die, and without sufficient motivation, you aren't as fearful of exploration or new things, the experience feels cheapened.
A game is a game is a game and not a simulation of reallife. Realism is not an actual goal for games; suspension of disbelief is.
I propose to have two different servers then.
- One with a death penalty thats really harsh for those who want that (hardcore rule set).
- One that has a death penalty that is still significant (default ruleset). So for example nobody should die as a means of faster travel. But the penalty shall not be so harsh that people will start avoiding death at all costs and not experiment to learn playing their class or to learn how to fight boss mobs best.
A game is a game is a game and not a simulation of reallife. Realism is not an actual goal for games; suspension of disbelief is.
I propose to have two different servers then.
- One with a death penalty thats really harsh for those who want that (hardcore rule set).
- One that has a death penalty that is still significant (default ruleset). So for example nobody should die as a means of faster travel. But the penalty shall not be so harsh that people will start avoiding death at all costs and not experiment to learn playing their class or to learn how to fight boss mobs best.
A game is a set of objectives/obstacles to which the player competes to succeed/overcome according to a set of rules. Penalties, restrictions, and difficulty in task is the entire point of a game, to test and challenge the player.
I actually would prefer special servers if they can do it though, it is something that really should have been expanded upon over the years. Rather than making a one size fits all game, specialized servers achieve the same thing ultimately and within reason, pretty much everyone can be happy.
A game is a game is a game and not a simulation of reallife. Realism is not an actual goal for games; suspension of disbelief is.
I propose to have two different servers then.
- One with a death penalty thats really harsh for those who want that (hardcore rule set).
- One that has a death penalty that is still significant (default ruleset). So for example nobody should die as a means of faster travel. But the penalty shall not be so harsh that people will start avoiding death at all costs and not experiment to learn playing their class or to learn how to fight boss mobs best.
A game is a set of objectives/obstacles to which the player competes to succeed/overcome according to a set of rules. Penalties, restrictions, and difficulty in task is the entire point of a game, to test and challenge the player.
I actually would prefer special servers if they can do it though, it is something that really should have been expanded upon over the years. Rather than making a one size fits all game, specialized servers achieve the same thing ultimately and within reason, pretty much everyone can be happy.
Sinist,
While I do agree with you Sinist that today's death penalties are a joke, by your own words on another post we cannot make everyone happy. Now that does not mean an MMO cannot have a Nightmare Mood server. That's not a problem. What I am saying is you cannot make everyone happy with all the different types of death that everyone wants.
Now if we talk Sandbox. I always will go back to SWG as being a good idea for a death system and NO I am not talking about Jedi Perma death. I am talking Armor breaks and after so much time and so many repairs its gone forever. Armor in SWG was easy to come by except the best crafted armor and that you had to find a good Armorsmith to get them sets of armor. But gear in SWG was not WOW like at all, the best gear didnt make or break a person, skills did.
Now if we are talking about Themepark. Lets look at Vanilla WOW and if you played it you remembered how much it hurt to repair and that debuff for not running back to your body or near it you took a 10 Minute debuff. Now one would say, thats exactly what is done today. Only they forget how hard it was to make 1 gold. Or it was to get 40 gold for your mount. So the death penalty was 2 fold and it really hurt. Yes I used it as quick travel a few times in Vanilla. Either because I was going out for a few hours or I was going to be away from the game for 30+ minutes. Today if I use it I would just go surf the web for 10 minutes and repairs are dirt cheap compared to Vanilla.
Thing is with anything that is good. You have to have balance. That is what WOW achieved and we cannot seem to achieve today because we listen to a bunch of forum jockies who one group want Permadeath, the other group want no death penalties, yet we have another group that wants XP losses. What we need are Developers that don't share anything about their game and release it as is and say here, play it or leave it. Thats what UO, EQ, and even WOW did before MMOs became a market to make Billions of Dollars in.
A game is a game is a game and not a simulation of reallife. Realism is not an actual goal for games; suspension of disbelief is.
I propose to have two different servers then.
- One with a death penalty thats really harsh for those who want that (hardcore rule set).
- One that has a death penalty that is still significant (default ruleset). So for example nobody should die as a means of faster travel. But the penalty shall not be so harsh that people will start avoiding death at all costs and not experiment to learn playing their class or to learn how to fight boss mobs best.
A game is a set of objectives/obstacles to which the player competes to succeed/overcome according to a set of rules. Penalties, restrictions, and difficulty in task is the entire point of a game, to test and challenge the player.
I actually would prefer special servers if they can do it though, it is something that really should have been expanded upon over the years. Rather than making a one size fits all game, specialized servers achieve the same thing ultimately and within reason, pretty much everyone can be happy.
Sinist,
While I do agree with you Sinist that today's death penalties are a joke, by your own words on another post we cannot make everyone happy. Now that does not mean an MMO cannot have a Nightmare Mood server. That's not a problem. What I am saying is you cannot make everyone happy with all the different types of death that everyone wants.
Now if we talk Sandbox. I always will go back to SWG as being a good idea for a death system and NO I am not talking about Jedi Perma death. I am talking Armor breaks and after so much time and so many repairs its gone forever. Armor in SWG was easy to come by except the best crafted armor and that you had to find a good Armorsmith to get them sets of armor. But gear in SWG was not WOW like at all, the best gear didnt make or break a person, skills did.
Now if we are talking about Themepark. Lets look at Vanilla WOW and if you played it you remembered how much it hurt to repair and that debuff for not running back to your body or near it you took a 10 Minute debuff. Now one would say, thats exactly what is done today. Only they forget how hard it was to make 1 gold. Or it was to get 40 gold for your mount. So the death penalty was 2 fold and it really hurt. Yes I used it as quick travel a few times in Vanilla. Either because I was going out for a few hours or I was going to be away from the game for 30+ minutes. Today if I use it I would just go surf the web for 10 minutes and repairs are dirt cheap compared to Vanilla.
Thing is with anything that is good. You have to have balance. That is what WOW achieved and we cannot seem to achieve today because we listen to a bunch of forum jockies who one group want Permadeath, the other group want no death penalties, yet we have another group that wants XP losses. What we need are Developers that don't share anything about their game and release it as is and say here, play it or leave it. Thats what UO, EQ, and even WOW did before MMOs became a market to make Billions of Dollars in.
WoW achieved everything today to which this game is being made in complete defiance of. My discussion of death penalties are not from the position that most want modern no bite penalties, but rather it is of the politeness that most of those who supported and pushed for this game do. So in the end, what is likely to happen if no rule set serves exist is something along the lines of EQ corpse runs and penalties. This has always been the basic plan from the start (if you read the numerous discussions, pod casts, and comments by the team).
WoW vanilla was far from harsh in penalty, in fact many of us in EQ after moving there used to joke about the death penalties and how people thought monetary penalty was somehow "harsh". This is where the term zerging became quite common as we made jokes about people zerging the dungeons as they constantly ran back to the instance in ghost form.
The thing here is that there is no balance. What you describe is all one sided mainstream solutions. None of the penalties matter, nobody cares, death does not bite, it is just some pointless motion you quickly go through each time you die.
Pantheon however is being created in the vein of EQ/VG, to which when many people think fondly of EQ, they think about the true meaning of risk and reward that no longer exists in games today and to which a corpse run and a stiff exp penalty provide. All the solutions in many of the games you mentioned do not work, death is not feared, it is a joke. Nobody is asking for permadeath, or wild mechanics as such, we are simply asking for the best features and mechanics of EQ/VG to be brought back to life in a modern twist of current technology.
Lastly, they aren't chasing the billions of dollars of mainstream attention. That is not the focus of this game, that is not the crowd it is attending to. The "compromise" will have to be more on the side of the main streamer who is looking into the game. That is, they will have to accept that the game won't be serving such a type of focus and weight if they are willing to try it or not.
I encourage them to do so, as most have not had the privilege of experiencing a truly meaningful risk/reward experience and I believe like Brad, that some will truly find the experience engaging. Those that do not, well... it isn't like the market is hurting for mainstream games, there are literally 100's of them.
No this game is not chasing the Mainstream. However if it tries to go back to PreWOW havoc then guess what, it will barely have a few thousand players and will not survive. Lets be honest here, games like what you are talking about exsist today. Mortal Online for example. They just reached 1K users logged in at the same time after they went to steam because no one wants to deal with PRE-WOW garbage. As much as a few form Jockies want to have this, it will not work period. I did the Risk vs Reward from the time I was 18 until 24. When I had no life and I could do that. Today I tried it with ArcheAge, hell I even went back to UO for a few weeks. As much as you people say you want it, you will find out that you dont nor can you. I use to love the idea of having to run back to my corpse to get my gear. I did that in UO without the blessing of my gear. Guess what, after I needed to get off because I had to be up at 2 am one morning I quit. Why? Because real people with real jobs do not have time for that old crap.
As much as you people want to say, well lets get the Indian group to make us a game. Or lets put our servers in the cloud. Every one of you who say that do not work with companies like Cognizant, SmartShift, Compro, Wipro, or countless other Indian firms. You also do not have application servers in the Amazon cloud and are paying A Million Dollars a month just to have Development servers. All this shit cost money. And you will see that you will waste your life and money in a game that when you are 60 years old will not matter. YES its entertainment. I know that I been in MMOs for a long Fucking time. I also know there is a life Hobby Work balance that has to take place that could not be done with corpse runs, or death penalties that will cause you not to play the game you want for hours, or Deleveling. As much as you want to live back in 1999 with these gaming features, they do not work in today's gaming world. You can no longer have a Server sitting on someones desk like you could in 1999.
I am sorry but I disagree with you on the fact that we need arcane death penalties. You are over romanticizing it. I played FFXI and you think Deleveling would make better players. I was in one group that I deleveled twice and was pissed the fuck off. Guess what the healer was not wanting to heal wanted to damage the mobs we were pulling. Guess what it wiped us. That healer deleveled 2 more times after I left that group. Did deleveling make him a better player? NO. The same can be said about a Warrior tank in Vanilla WOW who put Spirit and Int gear on because he said it made his character smarter and faster. No this is no joke the guys name was Hawkeye on Khadgar. The guy was a moron. Did death teach him. No he did the same shit.
The ONLY thing death penalties do is piss people off. I am sorry but in today's world if you do not have around 500K subs your game will not survive and will have to go F2P and likely P2W to make money. This game or any game cannot operate on a lose.
No this game is not chasing the Mainstream. However if it tries to go back to PreWOW havoc then guess what, it will barely have a few thousand players and will not survive.
It will be applying many PreWoW concepts. Read the forums, read Brads comments and Pod casts, it won't cater to WoW design, it is not another WoW clone, it will not chase that crowd and feature expectations.
Here is some reading that might get you in line with what they are doing:
I just want to save you from all the discussion you are going to go over in defending mainstream design. The game isn't being designed in that vein, in that direction. People will just have to accept that, though I would encourage people to try it before they judge it.
Death penalties should be meaningful and painful and ass punishing. It should encourage you not to be scrub who dies all the time. This is coming from a guy that at last check had over 15K deaths according to the death tally NPC in FFXI. This is because one of my favorite things to do when new content came out or I discovered a new NM was to figure out which of my jobs I could solo that NM on as a challenge of my skill with my different jobs, but that was all self inflicted and enjoyed for what it is. You can still enjoy a game even with harsh death penalties (XI wasn't the harshest but de-leveling was always demoralizing especially when coupled with the hilarious level down sound effect).
More generally heavy exp penalties (including the possibility of deleveling), corpse runs or loot loss/lock, and an economic hit of some kind (10%, or perhaps more depending on where you are in the world, of the wealth you are carrying on your person) are all things I like the sound of in regard to death penalties. Make it hurt, OH GOD MAKE IT HURT!!!
Also as a note related to the "Going back to PreWoW will ensure failure" note. No, it wont. There is a large niche population of MMO gamers who have been alienated by the MMO developers over the past decade who LONG and PINE for the days of "PreWoW havoc". Also this game is being built to thrive even if only a few thousand to several thousand people are the base of it's population. It is being built to cater to a very niche segment of the MMO population that has been left out in the cold while being told to go pound sand up their asses for the past decade. Please take this idea of "PreWoW" = failure and go ahead and pound sand up its ass if you could please. I can't tell you how detestable such a mind set is. JFC.
No this game is not chasing the Mainstream. However if it tries to go back to PreWOW havoc then guess what, it will barely have a few thousand players and will not survive. Lets be honest here, games like what you are talking about exsist today. Mortal Online for example. They just reached 1K users logged in at the same time after they went to steam because no one wants to deal with PRE-WOW garbage. As much as a few form Jockies want to have this, it will not work period. I did the Risk vs Reward from the time I was 18 until 24. When I had no life and I could do that. Today I tried it with ArcheAge, hell I even went back to UO for a few weeks. As much as you people say you want it, you will find out that you dont nor can you. I use to love the idea of having to run back to my corpse to get my gear. I did that in UO without the blessing of my gear. Guess what, after I needed to get off because I had to be up at 2 am one morning I quit. Why? Because real people with real jobs do not have time for that old crap.
As much as you people want to say, well lets get the Indian group to make us a game. Or lets put our servers in the cloud. Every one of you who say that do not work with companies like Cognizant, SmartShift, Compro, Wipro, or countless other Indian firms. You also do not have application servers in the Amazon cloud and are paying A Million Dollars a month just to have Development servers. All this shit cost money. And you will see that you will waste your life and money in a game that when you are 60 years old will not matter. YES its entertainment. I know that I been in MMOs for a long Fucking time. I also know there is a life Hobby Work balance that has to take place that could not be done with corpse runs, or death penalties that will cause you not to play the game you want for hours, or Deleveling. As much as you want to live back in 1999 with these gaming features, they do not work in today's gaming world. You can no longer have a Server sitting on someones desk like you could in 1999.
I am sorry but I disagree with you on the fact that we need arcane death penalties. You are over romanticizing it. I played FFXI and you think Deleveling would make better players. I was in one group that I deleveled twice and was pissed the fuck off. Guess what the healer was not wanting to heal wanted to damage the mobs we were pulling. Guess what it wiped us. That healer deleveled 2 more times after I left that group. Did deleveling make him a better player? NO. The same can be said about a Warrior tank in Vanilla WOW who put Spirit and Int gear on because he said it made his character smarter and faster. No this is no joke the guys name was Hawkeye on Khadgar. The guy was a moron. Did death teach him. No he did the same shit.
The ONLY thing death penalties do is piss people off. I am sorry but in today's world if you do not have around 500K subs your game will not survive and will have to go F2P and likely P2W to make money. This game or any game cannot operate on a lose.
Sounds like your fault for continuing to play with a terrible healer. Better luck next time!
By the way what you are describing is chosen ignorance not stupidity. There is no helping those who chose to be ignorant to their own and everybody else's detriment. Those players are not long term players who stick with a game. Eventually, as happened with yourself, frustration takes over and they go away. There are going to be bad apples. There's no preventing it. There are ways to encourage those bad apples to make sauce of themselves elsewhere though.
Also there are dozens of games that have been running for years and years that haven't touched close to 500k subs in any semblance of what can be construed as recently that are very successful. Please go away with your bad ideas.
Yea every great once in a while you get a willfully ignorant person or just an idiot or troll. When that happens you kick the bad player or if you wish to be more polite you could excuse yourself. I deleveled all the time in FFXI on new content or trying to pull off low man stuff. You just keep on keepin on. Try to learn from mistakes and dont dwell on things out of your control. Educate bad players and leave them be if its impossible to di so
No this game is not chasing the Mainstream. However if it tries to go back to PreWOW havoc then guess what, it will barely have a few thousand players and will not survive. Lets be honest here, games like what you are talking about exsist today. Mortal Online for example. They just reached 1K users logged in at the same time after they went to steam because no one wants to deal with PRE-WOW garbage. As much as a few form Jockies want to have this, it will not work period. I did the Risk vs Reward from the time I was 18 until 24. When I had no life and I could do that. Today I tried it with ArcheAge, hell I even went back to UO for a few weeks. As much as you people say you want it, you will find out that you dont nor can you. I use to love the idea of having to run back to my corpse to get my gear. I did that in UO without the blessing of my gear. Guess what, after I needed to get off because I had to be up at 2 am one morning I quit. Why? Because real people with real jobs do not have time for that old crap.
As much as you people want to say, well lets get the Indian group to make us a game. Or lets put our servers in the cloud. Every one of you who say that do not work with companies like Cognizant, SmartShift, Compro, Wipro, or countless other Indian firms. You also do not have application servers in the Amazon cloud and are paying A Million Dollars a month just to have Development servers. All this shit cost money. And you will see that you will waste your life and money in a game that when you are 60 years old will not matter. YES its entertainment. I know that I been in MMOs for a long Fucking time. I also know there is a life Hobby Work balance that has to take place that could not be done with corpse runs, or death penalties that will cause you not to play the game you want for hours, or Deleveling. As much as you want to live back in 1999 with these gaming features, they do not work in today's gaming world. You can no longer have a Server sitting on someones desk like you could in 1999.
I am sorry but I disagree with you on the fact that we need arcane death penalties. You are over romanticizing it. I played FFXI and you think Deleveling would make better players. I was in one group that I deleveled twice and was pissed the fuck off. Guess what the healer was not wanting to heal wanted to damage the mobs we were pulling. Guess what it wiped us. That healer deleveled 2 more times after I left that group. Did deleveling make him a better player? NO. The same can be said about a Warrior tank in Vanilla WOW who put Spirit and Int gear on because he said it made his character smarter and faster. No this is no joke the guys name was Hawkeye on Khadgar. The guy was a moron. Did death teach him. No he did the same shit.
The ONLY thing death penalties do is piss people off. I am sorry but in today's world if you do not have around 500K subs your game will not survive and will have to go F2P and likely P2W to make money. This game or any game cannot operate on a lose.
Sounds like your fault for continuing to play with a terrible healer. Better luck next time!
By the way what you are describing is chosen ignorance not stupidity. There is no helping those who chose to be ignorant to their own and everybody else's detriment. Those players are not long term players who stick with a game. Eventually, as happened with yourself, frustration takes over and they go away. There are going to be bad apples. There's no preventing it. There are ways to encourage those bad apples to make sauce of themselves elsewhere though.
Also there are dozens of games that have been running for years and years that haven't touched close to 500k subs in any semblance of what can be construed as recently that are very successful. Please go away with your bad ideas.
He also makes the all too common assumption that all of us who played EQ at release were kiddies living in our moms basements and had all the time in the world. What he does not understand is that many of us were working professionals with families who played EQ. Not only that, be he also assumes that we are just wide eyed dumb animals living on some nostalgia trip, too stupid to realize what we are asking for.
Lots of assumptions, lots of accusations, lots of claims of failure, blah blah blah. It is like they cut and paste this crap because they can't have an original thought to themselves. I mean, seriously, look at it... it is a verbatim cattle call of a specific narrative.
Comments
But is there a big problem if you can't wear your best gear for a week? (In the worst case scenario)
In EQ old days what caused stress and aggravation was the fact that if you didn't recover your corpse you would lose all of your possessions in your corpse............permanently.
With that big source of stress gone, I struggle to understand why not wearing your best gear for a week is so distressing.
Well ... one or two days, whatever.
You should be able to get your gear back even if you died just before you have to leave for a three week vacation.
It should just cost ingame money to get your gear back if you indeed delay getting your corpse back until the time it despawns.
edit:
The FAQ states:
If you read Brad's discussion on this in the pod casts and various posts he has done on such topics in the past, it is a bit more clear. Basically though what it is saying is that the game is designed for groups, but some content will be "soloable". That does not mean the content is "designed" for solo, merely that some classes will be able to solo just as they did in EQ.
Brad, I think you need to be a bit more clear on the FAQ concerning this as this discussion is a perfect example of how someone misinterpreted it to mean that the game would be "designing" solo content and so their expectation of penalty features also expected to be "designed" with that in mind. This is one of those cases where assumptions can lead to more assumptions and produce expectations that are not part of the goals.
Money isn't a proper deterrent as has been shown in numerous games over the years who have implemented it. It is an "annoyance" at best and eventually through currency devaluation through the AH and gold selling, becomes irrelevant. If death does not hurt, it is a pointless process of play. It has to have meaning, real meaning that causes someone fear while playing. If it does not, it again.. is meaningless.
If they allowed you to learn other classes on the same player,as would make sense,then you could simply go back and stealth and recover yourself easily ,well as long as you were smart enough to die somewhere rather safe.
Then again SOE also liked to make their dungeons at times way over the top crowded,far too many mobs in one area and it looked fake and most of the time those mobs never even moved,so no chance to wait for an opening.
I have no problem with penalties,it was not stressful to me at all,i died lost my gear,no big deal,it's just a game.All that needed to happen was not rely on instances/dungeons all the time and not litter your zones with so many mobs,open world content and safe areas to camp,then players would not be worried about easily dying all the time.
On that note,i do not want a mezzer for every fight or dungeon or content,i want combat to look and feel realistic and not have 20 mobs all running at me and suppose to believe that is realistic that my Tank survived so many attacks.I just like the game design to make sense.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So, you want every class to be able to recover on their own by making every class homogenized so they can all do the same things. You want dungeons to have all the trash removed so you can more easily get around. You want designed safe areas for people to camp so players would not have the risk of dying all the time. Lastly you want content to be designed so that crowd control isn't needed so encounters are more easily manageable.
1. It is a group reliant game, having to rely on another for recovery is the point, not a solo game where every class becomes the same class because people can't stand the idea of having to rely on another or suffer from a massive case of class envy and greener syndrome.
2. Dungeons are supposed to be dangerous and cause even a solid group to be in danger of losing. Having lots of mobs where the average player can not get around easily is the point. Requiring a group to spend real effort and time to get deep into the dungeon with much risk if they fail is the point.
3. Having to manage resources, constantly be aware of pathers, roamers, or something popping on your "safe spot" is the point. Dungeons and the wild lands of Pantheon are not shopping malls where people setup in the food court while they comfortably shop at their leisure. Constantly looking over your shoulder, constantly being nervous about being attacked, and never being able to truly find a "safe place" is the point.
4. Having to rely on another class to lock down additional mobs be it through mezzing, rooting, fearing, etc.. so you can be able to handle a given encounter is the point. Crowd control that deals with constant adds, pathers, pops, etc... is the point of play.
All of those things are what made EQ what it was. When people are thinking about the good of EQ, what made it so important in our memories, it is the features that made us earn our play and it is why we are tired of the games today, because they do many of the things you think this game should be doing.
I am just interested, because I have noticed a trend in some of your discussions, but... have you read the Tenants and features list for this game? What their goals are and why they are making Pantheon?
That is what brought EQ players together originally.
If you saw some guy take a beat down or get himself in a bind, you helped him. Not just because you hope he helps you another day. But because it was the players united against the many unfair things about the game. O.o
You port into a zone and and are deposited right underneath a dragon. Instant death.
You get trained by a dozen mobs pulled by some newbie.
You go to run a dungeon and someone already cleared it out.
The game was full of things that were unfair. But again, that was what created a bond among the players.
If you make Pantheon fair, what you get is EQ II.
This is the type of game where you have to break it to make it work.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Pantheon will allow some solo play.
Your reply to Wizardry seems pretty accurate for the most part. The fiirst part about homogonized classes isnt what he was talking about. Hes talking about switching classes on one char as opposed to switching to an alt. You could do either in XI. But when you switched classes on the same character you could only do it in town and every class was geared and leveled 1 to 75 independently.
So basically if you applied this to a corpse run in eq. You might die in a dungeon on your warrior, go back with a rogue and stealth to your body to loot it. Assuming your rogue was high enough level to even do it. Assuming you could even do that in the first place in EQ, the only difference would be using alts instead. IF you couldnt do it in EQ with alts then its a moot point I guess. That being said while I have no problem with switching classes on same character (doesnt matter cuz Brad said it ain happening). I do have a problem if you can solo corpse loot into a dungeon or raid..... though open world should be fine if careful
Well, the thing is corpse recovery will be easier with some classes as opposed to others, so "technically" if he were to have an alt of similar level to retrieve the corpse, it would be possible. There are classes that have skills to be able to achieve such (classes that can sneak or feign death, cast invis, etc...), but if VR does this right, trying to level an alt up with your main will not be something simple and easily done. Most people didn't really alt much past the first 10 levels in EQ (early release and expansions) because it really took so much time and effort to level a character and trying to do two was... a bit too much effort for most.
Also, just because classes have some abilities to circumvent some mobs doesn't mean it will happen consistently. Even EQ put in see invis mobs, and populated some rooms with multiple casters which would chain their casts to the point where there was no safe way to time a feign death (if a caster hit you with a spell after you feigned death, it would break the ability and the mob would re-aggro). So while there are classes that have skills, not everything is going to be an easy recovery, even with them (though a spell like "summon corpse") would certainly solve that problem.
CRs will be easier for some, hell for others, but with such benefits there are always trade offs. Every class had its unique benefits and set backs, I think Pantheon will be no different.
I remember one time another guild had me out on loan because their monk was sick and I was pulling Hate. I died a ton of times during the raid, even lost a level in the process, but I kept going because.. well... that is the game that is the class...
Well, we had a bad wipe during one of the fights and a wizard (who could quad kite solo for exp btw) started whining like I had killed his first born and was pretty insulting. I mean, he died ONCE while I had died multiple times that raid and de-leveled as I mentioned. I wasn't going to say a word (I was the guest this raid helping them, it wasn't my place to interfere), but the guild leader kicked him from not only the raid, but then the guild and wrote a scathing response on the forums which resulted in him being black listed (my guild and his were pretty well known on our server).
I had no tolerance for that sort of thing in my guild. I was the raid leader and I was completely nice and understanding to most things, but there was a time and place. If someone whined, bitched, moaned on a raid, it was a quick kick from the raid. I always ran a tight ship, with a chain of command and a clear means for someone to pass up a suggestion or grievance, but if someone ignored that, they were gone. There just wasn't time for that crap and it wasn't fair to all the other players to have to deal with that drama.
Death in Real-Life is absolute, it is the #1 motivator for almost all things. EQ was the last game I played that had a death penalty that made me almost as afraid of dying in the game in a dangerous location as I was to die IRL. It was a giant motivating factor to continue to survive, and progress.
When I played EQ2 recently, there was absolutely no penalty for death, and in some cases, it actually saved you a large amount of time... this is antithetical to what death should be.
#1 I don't want to see any ghosting back to your body, or reviving nearby. A resurrection from a priest should be possible, but it should also be a large commitment from that priest, so that its not just oops lol I died rez me.
#2 I should leave my gear on my body, and I should not be able to access that gear for at least 48 hours unless I recover my body.
#3 Experience loss, debt is an insufficient motivation to not die, and without sufficient motivation, you aren't as fearful of exploration or new things, the experience feels cheapened.
I propose to have two different servers then.
- One with a death penalty thats really harsh for those who want that (hardcore rule set).
- One that has a death penalty that is still significant (default ruleset). So for example nobody should die as a means of faster travel. But the penalty shall not be so harsh that people will start avoiding death at all costs and not experiment to learn playing their class or to learn how to fight boss mobs best.
I actually would prefer special servers if they can do it though, it is something that really should have been expanded upon over the years. Rather than making a one size fits all game, specialized servers achieve the same thing ultimately and within reason, pretty much everyone can be happy.
While I do agree with you Sinist that today's death penalties are a joke, by your own words on another post we cannot make everyone happy. Now that does not mean an MMO cannot have a Nightmare Mood server. That's not a problem. What I am saying is you cannot make everyone happy with all the different types of death that everyone wants.
Now if we talk Sandbox. I always will go back to SWG as being a good idea for a death system and NO I am not talking about Jedi Perma death. I am talking Armor breaks and after so much time and so many repairs its gone forever. Armor in SWG was easy to come by except the best crafted armor and that you had to find a good Armorsmith to get them sets of armor. But gear in SWG was not WOW like at all, the best gear didnt make or break a person, skills did.
Now if we are talking about Themepark. Lets look at Vanilla WOW and if you played it you remembered how much it hurt to repair and that debuff for not running back to your body or near it you took a 10 Minute debuff. Now one would say, thats exactly what is done today. Only they forget how hard it was to make 1 gold. Or it was to get 40 gold for your mount. So the death penalty was 2 fold and it really hurt. Yes I used it as quick travel a few times in Vanilla. Either because I was going out for a few hours or I was going to be away from the game for 30+ minutes. Today if I use it I would just go surf the web for 10 minutes and repairs are dirt cheap compared to Vanilla.
Thing is with anything that is good. You have to have balance. That is what WOW achieved and we cannot seem to achieve today because we listen to a bunch of forum jockies who one group want Permadeath, the other group want no death penalties, yet we have another group that wants XP losses. What we need are Developers that don't share anything about their game and release it as is and say here, play it or leave it. Thats what UO, EQ, and even WOW did before MMOs became a market to make Billions of Dollars in.
WoW vanilla was far from harsh in penalty, in fact many of us in EQ after moving there used to joke about the death penalties and how people thought monetary penalty was somehow "harsh". This is where the term zerging became quite common as we made jokes about people zerging the dungeons as they constantly ran back to the instance in ghost form.
The thing here is that there is no balance. What you describe is all one sided mainstream solutions. None of the penalties matter, nobody cares, death does not bite, it is just some pointless motion you quickly go through each time you die.
Pantheon however is being created in the vein of EQ/VG, to which when many people think fondly of EQ, they think about the true meaning of risk and reward that no longer exists in games today and to which a corpse run and a stiff exp penalty provide. All the solutions in many of the games you mentioned do not work, death is not feared, it is a joke. Nobody is asking for permadeath, or wild mechanics as such, we are simply asking for the best features and mechanics of EQ/VG to be brought back to life in a modern twist of current technology.
Lastly, they aren't chasing the billions of dollars of mainstream attention. That is not the focus of this game, that is not the crowd it is attending to. The "compromise" will have to be more on the side of the main streamer who is looking into the game. That is, they will have to accept that the game won't be serving such a type of focus and weight if they are willing to try it or not.
I encourage them to do so, as most have not had the privilege of experiencing a truly meaningful risk/reward experience and I believe like Brad, that some will truly find the experience engaging. Those that do not, well... it isn't like the market is hurting for mainstream games, there are literally 100's of them.
No this game is not chasing the Mainstream. However if it tries to go back to PreWOW havoc then guess what, it will barely have a few thousand players and will not survive. Lets be honest here, games like what you are talking about exsist today. Mortal Online for example. They just reached 1K users logged in at the same time after they went to steam because no one wants to deal with PRE-WOW garbage. As much as a few form Jockies want to have this, it will not work period. I did the Risk vs Reward from the time I was 18 until 24. When I had no life and I could do that. Today I tried it with ArcheAge, hell I even went back to UO for a few weeks. As much as you people say you want it, you will find out that you dont nor can you. I use to love the idea of having to run back to my corpse to get my gear. I did that in UO without the blessing of my gear. Guess what, after I needed to get off because I had to be up at 2 am one morning I quit. Why? Because real people with real jobs do not have time for that old crap.
As much as you people want to say, well lets get the Indian group to make us a game. Or lets put our servers in the cloud. Every one of you who say that do not work with companies like Cognizant, SmartShift, Compro, Wipro, or countless other Indian firms. You also do not have application servers in the Amazon cloud and are paying A Million Dollars a month just to have Development servers. All this shit cost money. And you will see that you will waste your life and money in a game that when you are 60 years old will not matter. YES its entertainment. I know that I been in MMOs for a long Fucking time. I also know there is a life Hobby Work balance that has to take place that could not be done with corpse runs, or death penalties that will cause you not to play the game you want for hours, or Deleveling. As much as you want to live back in 1999 with these gaming features, they do not work in today's gaming world. You can no longer have a Server sitting on someones desk like you could in 1999.
I am sorry but I disagree with you on the fact that we need arcane death penalties. You are over romanticizing it. I played FFXI and you think Deleveling would make better players. I was in one group that I deleveled twice and was pissed the fuck off. Guess what the healer was not wanting to heal wanted to damage the mobs we were pulling. Guess what it wiped us. That healer deleveled 2 more times after I left that group. Did deleveling make him a better player? NO. The same can be said about a Warrior tank in Vanilla WOW who put Spirit and Int gear on because he said it made his character smarter and faster. No this is no joke the guys name was Hawkeye on Khadgar. The guy was a moron. Did death teach him. No he did the same shit.
The ONLY thing death penalties do is piss people off. I am sorry but in today's world if you do not have around 500K subs your game will not survive and will have to go F2P and likely P2W to make money. This game or any game cannot operate on a lose.
Here is some reading that might get you in line with what they are doing:
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/what_is_pantheon/
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features/
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/
I just want to save you from all the discussion you are going to go over in defending mainstream design. The game isn't being designed in that vein, in that direction. People will just have to accept that, though I would encourage people to try it before they judge it.
More generally heavy exp penalties (including the possibility of deleveling), corpse runs or loot loss/lock, and an economic hit of some kind (10%, or perhaps more depending on where you are in the world, of the wealth you are carrying on your person) are all things I like the sound of in regard to death penalties. Make it hurt, OH GOD MAKE IT HURT!!!
Also as a note related to the "Going back to PreWoW will ensure failure" note. No, it wont. There is a large niche population of MMO gamers who have been alienated by the MMO developers over the past decade who LONG and PINE for the days of "PreWoW havoc". Also this game is being built to thrive even if only a few thousand to several thousand people are the base of it's population. It is being built to cater to a very niche segment of the MMO population that has been left out in the cold while being told to go pound sand up their asses for the past decade. Please take this idea of "PreWoW" = failure and go ahead and pound sand up its ass if you could please. I can't tell you how detestable such a mind set is. JFC.
By the way what you are describing is chosen ignorance not stupidity. There is no helping those who chose to be ignorant to their own and everybody else's detriment. Those players are not long term players who stick with a game. Eventually, as happened with yourself, frustration takes over and they go away. There are going to be bad apples. There's no preventing it. There are ways to encourage those bad apples to make sauce of themselves elsewhere though.
Also there are dozens of games that have been running for years and years that haven't touched close to 500k subs in any semblance of what can be construed as recently that are very successful. Please go away with your bad ideas.
Lots of assumptions, lots of accusations, lots of claims of failure, blah blah blah. It is like they cut and paste this crap because they can't have an original thought to themselves. I mean, seriously, look at it... it is a verbatim cattle call of a specific narrative.