The Daily Quest - What Does the MMO Need? -

SBFord · December 2015

The Daily Quest - What Does the MMO Need? -

We're bringing back the Daily Quest today, this time with a burning question... what does the MMO genre need to keep moving forward? What features are essential to keep, and what is better left in the past? Click through and give us your answers in the comments!

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BitterClinger · December 2015

I agree about the group content, specifically the socialization, but how do you do that without a return to mob-camping like in EQ? The way Guild Wars 2 has implemented guild membership and guild chat actually makes the game very social, but not necessarily the gameplay.

Here's my addition to the conversation:

1. Choose PVE or PVP, not both.

I'm tired of MMO developers creating the beginnings of a PVE world, then throwing in PVP as a half-assed substitute for end game. The addition of PVP to a PVE world also causes some class skills and abilities to be watered down for the sake of balance.

When I want to do PVP, I play a real PVP game. I'm looking for a developer to come along and create a real PVE game with real RPG classes with real unique and OP skills.

Righteous_Rock · December 2015

It doesn't need anything, we have World of Warcraft and we will continue to have WoW for quite some time, we're all good in the mmo world. What that leaves us with , is that the people looking, they just need to resub to WoW and play the game they way they want to, promote your style within the game, keep your friends close but your enemies closer.

Arskaaa · December 2015

combat need be fun, not too complex or button smashing.
raiding need be open to all, not just for hardcore players.
classes need be balanced but also difrend, not blank copy skills with same animations.
more customize for classes, every class should least 10 difrend build and all balanced.
open world,fast respaws on mods.
no weekly limits on points (like wow have how many raid point u can get in week to able buy gear).

damm, there is so many issue i dont have time type them here...

KalebGrayson · December 2015

When you play the game, ask yourself, Am I having fun?

BigRambo · December 2015

Everything will fall in to the right place once you go from F2P to P2P, problem solved.

- Having 8 and more classes is pointless, it'll be a never ending circle of nerfs and balancing.
- Crafting needs to be enjoyable once again and not be a chore *cough* FF14 ...
- Need more group focused advantages, I always fail to see the point of calling a MMORPG a MMO when everyone just solos their way to end game without breaking a sweat.
- P2W needs to leave ASAP, it destroys any MMO.
- Need a serious Dev / Pub (Blizz / Activ) that will work toward ONE flagship MMO title instead of releasing a dozen of mediocre titles.
- Having 20-30+ skills per class is a waste of time when we all know everyone will go for the same skills at the end. People will google their class to find out the best rotations anyway, so why waste time and effort on creating a insane number of skills per class?

The more I read myself, the more I realize how much of a overhaul the MMO universe needs right now. And it won't happen anytime soon because most players are brain washed and keep falling for hype. Remember that time when MMO's were a lot more popular than consoles? Yeah, it's been that long ago, and the MMO industry just keeps going down hill year after year. Next gen graphics is the only thing attracting players, and players should know better when it comes to a MMO. But again, almost everyone keeps falling for the false hype. So until people start waking up, the genre will keep going down the drain and games like LoL and MineCraft will still have the best active player base on the market. We already got over 200 MMO's that look a like, and there's another 100 releasing from here to 2018. So expect a lot more disappointments to keep happening in the near future and don't ask yourselves why a new MMO has no one playing it after 4 months, because since that MMO released, 5-6 more released.

BillMurphy · December 2015

DMKano said:

To keep moving forward MMOs need to cater to majority of players tomorrow, not minority from 15 years ago.

Understand your target audience first and foremost, then create a product for them.

Let indies keep making games that cater to minority old school players.

MMOs can only move forward by having masses of new players play them in the future.

I agree, Kano, a lot. The first MMO to really capture a new playerbase again, the way WoW once did, will set the tone for the years to come. In my eyes, that game will be very "watchable" and have moments that make for good YouTube videos. I know that sounds repulsive to some, but it's probably the genre's best bet.

Maquiame · December 2015

1. More virtual worlds, less themeparks, less tunnel worlds

2. Better npc AI

3. Evolving worlds - when was the last time we've seen a significant upgrade in npc AI?

4. The single player mmo can die a horrid napalm fueled death. Now do I hate soloing? I don't but honestly its destroyed the genre. Soloing in mmos should be a possibility not what the entire game is built upon. Soloing should be treated as something you CAN do not something you SHOULD do. Because mmos are not built like Virtual Worlds and are instead built purely to cater to casuals we aren't seeing what types of gameplay can develop if worlds are treated as being virtual worlds. Solo players should be thrown into a group oriented world like everyone else BUT rewarded for learning how to play solo in a world where groups are needed. Should it be like old school EQ soloing where you can solo but have to take your time grinding and you get far less than a group? Not exactly - first virtual worlds shouldn't have levels second solo players should be recognized for playing smarter not harder. There are more than enough solo centric games out there for soloers to play. Its time for virtual worlds to return and it honestly hurts me that you guys still haven't done a full out blowout on Revival and what its doing. Its downright sad that Japanese anime makers with shows like Log Horizon understand what the genre means more than actual mmo makers. A damn shame really. I seriously recommend anyone to watch the Log Horizon series to see where the genre SHOULD go. Its an anime dealing with the world of a sandbox mmorpg. Yes the show is about a sandbox mmo and its not like Sword Art Online at all. Watch it.

Maquiame · December 2015

DMKano said:

BillMurphy said:

DMKano said:

To keep moving forward MMOs need to cater to majority of players tomorrow, not minority from 15 years ago.

Understand your target audience first and foremost, then create a product for them.

Let indies keep making games that cater to minority old school players.

MMOs can only move forward by having masses of new players play them in the future.

I agree, Kano, a lot. The first MMO to really capture a new playerbase again, the way WoW once did, will set the tone for the years to come. In my eyes, that game will be very "watchable" and have moments that make for good YouTube videos. I know that sounds repulsive to some, but it's probably the genre's best bet.

There is a game in works right now that is very much based around spectator watchability. It is very much new genre setting. Hopefully I can say more in 2016.

Where are the games that revolve around virtual worlds instead. We don't need esports we need a true to feel LOTR, GOT, etc.

GeezerGamer · December 2015

This genre was never supposed to get this big. The early size of the genre would still support the games in the style they were originally designed for.......Assuming you saw a successful title as 200K instead of 2M.
But then we had WoW. And that was the fat kid who cannonballed the kiddiepool.

pharsidez · December 2015

KalebGrayson said:
When you play the game, ask yourself, Am I having fun?

I think this is both the heart of the reason we play and dislike MMO’s today! I am and have been a MMO player for years I started with WoW and have jumped ship many times only to be brought back by Friends. I capitalize this word due to it’s importance here, why we play MMO’s is because we don’t have to play alone! I have seen and heard many arguments but this is a simple fact, playing games is more fun with other people.
Now what is the number one issue with playing MMO’s well that would be you play with other people! Yeah that is right people the cause and a curse of playing them we have to deal with other people. And if like me you find that really irritating at times, and when you need them the most they seem to let you down. Everyone wants epic gear but no-one wants to take the time and learn how to get it or work as a team. So now most companies like Blizzard are forced to dumb down the game and make places like the “timeless isle” where you trip over epics just walking around. I ask everyone here is that fun?
So before we ask for group content and tell the Dev’s what they need to change in their game to suite us. We need to ask ourselves what do We need to change? If we want it to be fun We need to find people that are not afraid of working with others? Being constructive when dealing with others? I think because we are playing a video game we think that it doesn’t take any work on our part, I mean Work isn’t fun right? Well everything worth doing takes effort so why not make the effort to have fun? We act as if being an adult means the fun is over but if you watch kids at play they work harder at it then just about anything else. Food for thought I guess.

carotid · December 2015

DMKano said:

Understand your target audience first and foremost, then create a product for them.

This statement nullifies everything else you said.

GeezerGamer · December 2015

pharsidez said:

KalebGrayson said:
When you play the game, ask yourself, Am I having fun?

I am not entirely certain this is the right question. MMOs that had player retention and loyalty weren't always fun. Not everything was supposed to be fun. There were plenty of tasks that were in fact not fun.....by design.

I think the real question should be..........
Are players sufficiently motivated?

Amathe · December 2015

Not a huge factor, but still. Keep a sense of humor in the design. WoW and GW2 both have a lot of light-hearted and amusing content.

elocke · December 2015

Fallout 4 didn't change much and yet it's a fantastic game. Why? So, if we can answer that than we can answer the same for any genre and apply it to this question. For me, I think it's just putting a new fresh coat on tried and true mechanics but also putting passion into the development of content instead of just trying to churn out content just to have it there, i.e. eastern MMORPGs that don't really put care and attention into each quest or location in a game, they just slap a name on an area, drop 10 to 20 mobs of the same type on that area and then make quests tell you to go to that area and kill away. Fallout 4 made each location have unique qualities so that exploring feels like exploring, and enemies and loot found in each location vary enough to make it feel organic instead of contrived.

Loke666 · December 2015

DMKano said:

To keep moving forward MMOs need to cater to majority of players tomorrow, not minority from 15 years ago.

Understand your target audience first and foremost, then create a product for them.

Let indies keep making games that cater to minority old school players.

MMOs can only move forward by having masses of new players play them in the future.

Well, it certainly needs a large potential playerbase but it doesn't neccesarily need the largest one. The problem is that it at least seems to me that the largest group plays maybe an hour a day, mostly solo but might do a dungeon now and then and loves fantasy.

The problem with that group is that close to every other MMO made the last 10 years is focused to that group so the competition is fierce, and the games you compete with often have an expansion or 2 under the belt and all bugs fixed which means your new game will be smaller and buggier than already existing games.

Now, if you can make a game for those players that feels completely different from anything else on the market then all that isn't a problem but that is hard and if you can't you should look on the other larger groups of players instead.

You have casual PvPers: a large group that made the fist Guildwars huge. No FFA full loot game but something for people that enjoy duelling and fighting large scale battles with others on equal footing.

PvE group players. They enjoy social gameplay together with others. You might need to figure out new ways to form natural groups and you either have to skip trinity or make it so any class can switch into the role needed for a group on the spot.

Both these groups are smaller than casual soloplayers but both also have millions even if many of the PvP gang at the moment plays FPS and RTS games since few MMOs really offers a good casual PvP experience anymore.

You do need a large group of potential players and you do need to focus the majority of gameplay on them. You could also make easy and hardcore servers to get more players from other groups as long as you balance rare loot on these servers based on difficulty (talking about PvE here), then soloplayers could solo most of the content on the easy server as a bonus and you get the group that really likes hard games on the hard with minimal work. But the game must still focus on your main target group and your standard servers.

Also, setting wise are there many other options to pure high fantasy or high fantasy with a dash of steampunk. If you look on popular culture you can see that themes like Cyberpunk, low fantasy and horror among others are very popular and few MMOs go there. You also have certain historical periods very fittting for a MMO like a Swashbucker game with musketeers and such for example. Using an unusual setting popular in culture is a good way to distinguish your game from the myriad of others in existance.

Mendel · December 2015

Loke666 said:

<snip>
PvE group players. They enjoy social gameplay together with others. You might need to figure out new ways to form natural groups and you either have to skip trinity or make it so any class can switch into the role needed for a group on the spot.

<snip>.

There's a trick here, though, that no game has been able to manage so far. That is making the character able to fulfill any role in a group (tank, heal, dps, crowd control) without enabling that character to be better as a solo player. That defeats the purpose for groups in the first place. Even if it a class or equipment switch (like Ryzom or rumored to be the mechanism in EQ:N), the ability to switch to any role as needed, makes the character less dependent on others (specialists). Ultimately, this hurts the grouping game by reducing the need to group. That's one reason why I dislike the everyone-does-everything type model.

Wrock · December 2015

MMOs can do without inventory. I get it, we all like getting stuff. I'm fine with continuing to get stuff. But I'm dead-sick of inventory management. I'm sick of buying more bags to hold more stuff that takes more time to sort through. Give me a system that uses the SWTOR Collections as a foundation, where you unlock stuff and can access it at a later point, but just skip the part where you keep stuff sitting around in cargo holds or bags or vaults or whatever. Whether it's crunchy, functional, stat-affecting gear or whether it's mods for said gear, or whether it's cosmetic alterations, just unlock it when you get it, and have access as needed/desired.

Iselin · December 2015

MMOs need a world populated by many NPC factions with their own agendas and goals. A game that, in a sense, plays itself with interesting conflicts and world changing events without the need for player interaction.

Once you have that, you then add players who can interact with some or all of those factions in ways that can also change the world and the factions.

There is nothing in MMOs that is more immersion busting than static quest arcs that are simply there to provide the illusion for an individual player that he has contributed in a meaningful way only to have that arc repeat itself forever for the next players in the queue as if nothing had happened.

Everything else is details.

Konfess · December 2015

I've been in a lot of Betas. I'm sure anyone that has seen the thread asking if this "game is soloable?" The answer should have always been, No. You can only solo if you outlevel the content. Any "Forced Grouping" game is soloable if grind low mobs until you outlevel the content, and that is how all MMOs should be designed.

So levels 1 - 5, learn the UI (combat, leveling, skills, inventory, etc.). After that group, find a tank, dps, and healer. Or whatever group make up you enjoy. If you don't want to group, or just can't group then there should be adequate grinding mobs that aren't quest related. These would be high defense, low offense mobs that give minimum xp. This will help the solo player outlevel the content.

I believe that a playstyle analyzer would be valuable to quick and efficient group forming. I'm uncertain what all an analyzer would entail. As a healer I would often run out of mana keeping the Tank and especially the dps alive. Because they were full of health they would often run off into battle ignoring my cries of OOM. Then turn around and cry "you suck" when they wiped. These same players would ignore all loot drops except for roll items and boss drops. I needed every coin I could loot, I also need every mana potion. Because I was burning through them like wild fire keeping these brain dead dps(jocks) alive. As a result I lagged behind, and they ran forward getting wiped. So a combination of player preference with check boxes, and analysis of actual playstyle.

Along those lines, I don't believe in player made game mods. I feel they are a security risk, and a risk to community harmony. I'm a real fan of thottbot and the data mining done with their mod, but I really think mods should be dev controlled.

Moonstruck1969 · December 2015

My wife says more skimpy armor for male characters is needed. :)

Kefo · December 2015

BillMurphy said:

DMKano said:

To keep moving forward MMOs need to cater to majority of players tomorrow, not minority from 15 years ago.

Understand your target audience first and foremost, then create a product for them.

Let indies keep making games that cater to minority old school players.

MMOs can only move forward by having masses of new players play them in the future.

I agree, Kano, a lot. The first MMO to really capture a new playerbase again, the way WoW once did, will set the tone for the years to come. In my eyes, that game will be very "watchable" and have moments that make for good YouTube videos. I know that sounds repulsive to some, but it's probably the genre's best bet.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. MMO's need to do the opposite of what DMKano said. When you cater to a majority of players you get stagnation because whatever game hits it big is what everyone will try to copy for the next 10 years so they can try to steal a slice of the pie.

When you cater to old school or niche markets you get a variety of games with new unique ideas and gameplay elements that can help push the genre forward. Yes that means the big publishers need to step away from the scene otherwise we will have watered down copy paste for decades to come.

GeezerGamer · December 2015

DMKano said:

To keep moving forward MMOs need to cater to majority of players tomorrow, not minority from 15 years ago.

Understand your target audience first and foremost, then create a product for them.

Let indies keep making games that cater to minority old school players.

MMOs can only move forward by having masses of new players play them in the future.

@DMKano ;
Most of your posts (Outside of Trion related threads) are very well thought out and reasonable. More times that not, I'll read your post and think, "Yep, that's true." This is not one of those times.

the 1st part of your post is exactly what we have seen for the last decade or more. Yet, here we are in this thread saying what they need to do. Obviously something's not working. Yes, MMO populations are large. But they are large due to a big percentage of that population jumping from game to game to game. So you have this big market that has a large population that is "searching" for the right game, unsatisfied with the overall choices and selections. The reason, as I believe it to be, is because the MMO population may be huge, it's far too diverse in what it wants.

I just bought ESO on Steams Black Friday sale. I think ESO is a good example of what you are talking about here. ESO is not a bad MMO. It's also not a great MMO. And this is what following your suggestion produces. Catering to the masses breeds mediocrity.

The 2nd statement, means letting go of the 1st.....IMO. And yes, that is what we need. But that means smaller, focused titles that cater to a smaller base but will deliver more of what the smaller group wants.

The third......I question.....Let indies "KEEP"? making games? All I see is indies blowing a lot of smoke and wasting a lot of people's time and money without really producing anything of even remote quality. And now look at The Repopulation. It's in trouble due to 3rd party circumstances. I am betting that project is done. Its over. I created a thread a few months ago asking about ever seeing a viable indie game. It looks like as time wears on, my question does not appear to be unfounded. IMO, MMOs are just too massive in scale to ever truly be successfully developed by indie studios.

As for the last statement. Without even having a grasp of the subject you are talking about, I can already see you are making an assumption using absolutes regarding a large sample of people. The only correct absolute here, is that there are no absolutes here.

TLDR; There will never again, be a "One size fits all" MMORPG

Pepeq · December 2015

Why do people refer to MMOs as an industry? It's a game not an industry. Games are an industry. The gaming industry makes games. Whether it's an MMO or solitaire, it's still just a game. You speak of it as if it is an entity all of it's own.

If people aren't buying an Edsel, why continue to make one? Because that is all you know how to do... you want fresh ideas, you need to fire everyone and start over from scratch with no one with even one iota of a clue about what makes a good game. These people are the ones making clones of clones of clones because that's all they have done for the past 20 years and probably their entire lives.

Dr_Binks · December 2015

Group content..... hummmm... I see a lot of peeps talking about this issue..... yess ISSUE that the MMO's seem to have now a days. I say it's a issue because the group content seems to be turning into one big free for all..... a big mob of peeps trying to get the kill before the next guy when they dont need the kill just the tag.. Take GW2 for a moment..... world events has turned into one big mess.... you have peps standing at the spawn killing the mobs before they cane get out of the spawn which turns the event into a big cluster. Now ask yourself is this the Devs fault or is it a problem with the event...? No its not the event or the games fault it;s the peeps! There seems to be a lack of gaming courtesy and or etiquette that is growing in the MMO genre. It's a really sad thing to see this happen to a genre that I really enjoy..... what ever happened to lets play and have fun...... so what we wiped lets try it again...... but now a days it's "you suck" or "if you would play a meta class we would win" What the "F".... its a game if you want to compete go to the "E"sports side of the genre and let us "so called casual players" have our fun.

And the trem "casual player" what the "F" is that....... we are all casual player's! I don't think that there are a lot of us out there competing in a "E" sports event for a 200K prize. So a lot of us are playing more solo stuff because us casual player's aren't good enough to run with all these.... "other then casual player's"... what ever the "F" they are!

So what it comes down too is it's not so much the genre's fault or the Dev's fault, but it's more of our fault.... yes the peeps are really the problem, or is it the self proclaimed experts?

Look at some of the things going on with GW2 & HoT..... A lot of the new content is aimed at the "Elite player" and the others will just have to play the old content and be happy! When they do a balance patch it's mainly for PvP reasons and screw the PvE players! Fix fractels..... why? we're to busy with the new "E" sports stuff .... and dungeons...... well forget about them..... the elite don't run dungeons anyway!!!

Well I'm sorry all for getting out there, but the point I want to make is that the MMO community seem to be changing and it really not for the best, and it's sad to see it happen!

SIlverfox74 · December 2015

A very tricky question for MMO's because of the nature of trying to appeal to such a large audience as the entire world is difficult. First big X factor is will the game just be an RPG ? Or simply just a game people log on to and play with other people such as World of Tanks, War Thunder and the PVP games as such. If a game is to have the RPG element there needs to be more then just PVP it will need story, and not just collect 10 gizzard's more then story from a quest giver per your level in zone. That X is a huge hurtle in itself and not one I'm trying to answer just simply putting together the equation.

so at this point we have X + P (pvp) = game then expand on that with what player's need to do when not questing or pvp'ing and we will refer to this as C which will be generically be Crafting. Now the wonderful complex that will create C should involve both x and P (pvp) as in yes you should need quest items from R to use in C, and same with P. but = to there own area, as in you can use but not as good pvp gear for R and reverse that R gear will work for P but not as good as P gear. That can be further broke down as just patterned won in dungeons or pvp rewards for achievements as well as components needed to be used in creation.

so now our equation is X + P + C = game

I personally think what make s a great game is exploration, we glimpse it in wow but limited by level mob area, we see really great examples of open world in non-MMO games like Skyrim or Fallout, and a old dusty SWG (pre-NGE) that had exploration though a little bland. Which if done right in new game can add to the other elements in way of finding new area to pvp over or dungeon in or find crafting materials.

So now we are up to X+P+C+E=Game

Player property (H for our equation), now this can manifest in various form from Player housing to player cities, to player vehicles/mounts depending on game theme. now the issues I have with current games such as the old republic is the fact that its static, everyone has the same apartment, you don't really get a sense of individuality, player built homes to there own construction has been done well in games as old as Runescape or the infamous abandoned player cities of SWG that had for a time there own life, lets look for a moment at what turned the thriving living player cities in SWG into ghost towns, what made them successful was really 2 elements, PVP and player economy. Players being able to set up PVP bases near , in , and around there cities made its own traffic and life, in addition to that was also the crafters and a player driven economy , which was ruined with adding global auction house style terminals and drop gear in dungeons getting better then what crafters could make. But before we get too off topic . Player built homes able to modified and placed where they wanted, how they wanted in addition to highly customization interior decorating not just in spot 13 i have item 3...

So if X (C+E) + P (C+E) + H (C+E+P) = Game

Then you need an economy, which will be Y in our equation. Again I will state this is strictly opinion based. But I think a player driven economy is by far a really healthy thing that helps determine success and longevity of a game, and general interest. a glimpse of the Auction house in WoW that crafters could buy materials and the old republic to a slightly lesser degree of the same , once more I will reference both Runescape and SWG (pre-NGE) citing with stipulations, as to not infringe upon factors of E and P to not isolate players to being required to do any one thing but allow players of many styles to do as they wish for what is fun for them. and I think one of the best ways this was accomplished was not using a global auction house system but rather having a physical system of player built shops. which lends to the use and need of player cities and defending areas or controlling areas with pvp bases near by, giving many reasons to need to go to certain areas. this keeps the relevance to all the other elements rather then just congregating at static NPC cities such as Orgimar or stormwind or the faction space station.

so now we have. X(C+E) + P (C+E) + H(C+E+P) + Y (H+E+C+P) = Game

you can take this equation and put it too any theme, Space/sci-fi, Fantasy , post apocalyptic, or really anything at all and have a strong base for a game that will not only be fun, have stuff for many player archetypes, whether its the explorer, the crafter, the dungeon hound, the hard core pvp'er they all have a reason to be there and stuff to do without being locked into any one type. and lastly I would reflect upon environment. making a world that is not a static level theme park but has a variety of difficulties in challenges that can be roaming bosses, pvp flagged areas, or the risk of navigating areas to find locations for new player cities, random events such as the rifts in the game Rift that can create a reason to protect your town with yourself and or cities defense that are crafter built could make things difficult and fun.

Then what we have is a reason to be a community again and not just people playing the same game.

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