Nope. Just separate the games. Either make an instanced pvp game (like WoT) or a world pvp game (like PS2).
There is no need for anything to go hand-in-hand. Players who like instanced pvp will play instanced pvp games. Those who like world pvp will play world pvp games. Those who like both will play both types.
But we already agreed that instanced PvP games are popular and there are plenty of them around already. We don't need a discussion over that. This is not what this thread is about though.
The OP is asking something different. He wants to be able to play a classic open world MMORPG like Archeage without the need of leveling through PvE. The question is how do you make this kind of game without putting all the dynamics of an open world game out of balance?
PS: I remind you again PS2 is not a popular game and it is not a MMORPG, just in case you missed it the first time around. I would't use it to prove my point if I was you.
Already been done, see EVE. You can join the faction wars and even make decent money pvping all day.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is a fine opportunity to actually put "server types" to use. PVE only, PVP only, or Mixed.
On the pvp only servers, you can be "born" at the cap. But you can't transfer out to another server type.
Oh, the developers won't like that, though. They love those Server Transfer Dollars.
And even if you start at the cap, in most systems, you're far from "maxed out". More of that dreaded time investment in character advancement will still be required to Keep Up With Jones. So it doesn't answer the original issue, not at all.
Too integral to the entire concept of mmorpg's to escape.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
>>>>ROLE<<< playing game. If you want an instant buffed character with no plausible realism to how he got that way,then you want a cheap fast mindless arcade game.
I have been saying it since day 1,PVP and PVE do NOT belong in the same game.
I feel most people are biased in that they like either or.I am not one of those ,i love BOTH aspects of gaming,i have been doing both pve and pvp for longer than some are old.I cannot stand to see a game ruin either aspect trying to combine them,it does NOT work.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
just separate pvp and pve wow has a goodidea bout tht use a toggle so tht yu can set yurself as pvp but have tht only be able to toggle off after 5 or so mins w/o any pvp action in tht way ppl cant toggle pvp on kill some1 thn toggle it off
>>>>ROLE<<< playing game. If you want an instant buffed character with no plausible realism to how he got that way,then you want a cheap fast mindless arcade game.
I have been saying it since day 1,PVP and PVE do NOT belong in the same game.
I feel most people are biased in that they like either or.I am not one of those ,i love BOTH aspects of gaming,i have been doing both pve and pvp for longer than some are old.I cannot stand to see a game ruin either aspect trying to combine them,it does NOT work.
u still can rolepay in pvp....and it much more fun...u not fighting brain dead npc, u fighting an intelectual being, how u want to fight him/her? how to beat their team/clan, so u can the best!!!!!!!! Gotta Catch Em All!!!! pokemon!!!!!!
Both can be in the same game as long as there is ample room for both. This may be more money in the end than just separating the gameplay by server ruleset but does allow "crossover" if a PvPer wants to PvE a bit or vice versa. As long as both "sides" have what they need and have their own progression paths I think a title featuring both would work great. One careful consideration is that separate progression. Someone who spends 90% of their time in PvP should only be 10% effective in PvE, etc. This complete separation of power between the two may actually entice crossover, especially if the systems had cross story and benefits.
Example in TESO, you need level 10 to go to pvp map, and in order to be strong in PVP, u need to grind PVE...this is a bad design
Example in Archeage, same with teso, you need to grind PVE, in order to be strong in PVP.
See how GW2 allow PVP players to do PVP in Structural PVP map and gain Levels!!! And since level 2 you can enter WVW!!!!!!!
I like PVE if playing single player offline, but when online, i like to interact, fight with other players!! i do like pve once in a blue moon, but many AAA MMMORPG nowadays like TESO and Archeage, force PVP players do PVE in order to be strong. THIS IS BAD DESIGN!!
I don't think the design of having to do the pve to be strong in pvp is a new thing to mmos, but I agree with you that I would prefer not to.
The main reason I play GW2 is because of the structured pvp (no leveling/gear so its just focused on skill and teamwork), and like you say the WvW is also fairly accessible in that game.
Hopefully Crowfall and Camelot Unchained will be good since those games appear to be totally focused on pvp which will be a pleasant change.
The OP is asking something different. He wants to be able to play a classic open world MMORPG like Archeage without the need of leveling through PvE. The question is how do you make this kind of game without putting all the dynamics of an open world game out of balance?
Already been done, see EVE. You can join the faction wars and even make decent money pvping all day.
I know that, the question was addressed explicitly to nariusseldon which was making all the wrong examples to validate his point. It was an invitation to share his knowledge. Here
I would have thought you
would come up with better examples, particularly one which should be
quite obvious, though it is probably the only one so far. Yes, there is one popular MMO PvP which doesn't require you to touch any PvE in order to level. Let's see if you can guess it.
The MMO I was suggesting in my little quiz was EvE obviously. I am well aware EvE managed to get the right balance between PvP and PvE, but some people are not so aware, they talk a lot about PvP though they don't even know the subject very well.
I am sure those who enjoy Eve and do well might think there is a balance between PvE and PvP but I cannot help but think it may not be the case after the much maligned posts about EvE from the so-called victims of their scams and other mind boggling cheating that goes on. I would think those who lost money in the game would not really think the game balanced.
The OP is asking something different. He wants to be able to play a classic open world MMORPG like Archeage without the need of leveling through PvE. The question is how do you make this kind of game without putting all the dynamics of an open world game out of balance?
The answer is simple. It is hard to do so .. and it is a fool's errand. That is why devs make pvp-only (instanced or open world) MMOs, and they are popular.
The closest example is GW2, which will give you max level + full gear character for e-sports pvp. Obviously you cannot do that in open world pvp.
So again, the answer is that what he would like, in my (and prob many dev's) opinion, not a good idea.
WOW isn't the only way to progress. I get tired of people acting like if you don't have 100 levels and 100 tiers of gear it's not a RPG. Yes it's popular design but it's just there to hide the fact that the game is shallowly an RPG. Give people meaningless number inflation, tons of throw away gear and generic task and it's a good RPG.
You waste your breath here mate. This site's community is so carebear thet they will eat u alive. They all whine here about how pvp is bad and how they want their pony island hello kitty sanboxes be only pve.
PS
Games like EvE are ofc evil ;]
EVE PVP is casual PVP. It's decided by casual factors (population is a shallow trump factor, and progression is a non-skill factor.) So citing EVE PVP doesn't exactly let you take the high ground in the discussion, as it's just as trashy as anything else you can find in MMORPGs.
If you want pure (skill-based) PVP, it's found in plenty of other genres like FPS, RTS, MOBA, and Fighting games, and in fact this non-casual PVP is far more popular than the casual PVP offered by MMORPGs.
So no, not all of us will blindly defend the various MMORPG PVP implementations. To me the most logical method is: (a) find the best PVE games; play PVE in those games, and (b) find the best PVP games; play PVP in those games. Rarely is there overlap (and if there is it doesn't last long; like how Starcraft 2 has fantastic PVE and PVP, but the PVE is quickly consumed.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
For some reason it makes me smile how people want to keep PvP out of MMORPG games except if it is open world PvP where max level characters can go gank on some unsuspecting new player that is just looking around for those 10 rats.
GW2 allowing sPvP without PvE is great. I only wished they allowed me to go craft my precursors without having to set foot in PvP. Or to have a bit more flexibility in changing my stats and runes/sigil swapping in PvE.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
For me it's more like game maker don't understand PvP player who want to play to an MMORPG. The real cancer of any mmorpg nowadays is PvE player who clean all the content in less than 2 month then leave the game.
PvP player only need balance between class and a map where they can fight for their faction/guild in a "world" add some objective and voila! you have now acces to millions of player who already play moba/fps but need something more immersive with a bit of fantasy. And one thing please do not allow PvE player to become better than us because they have more stuff acquired against AI ...
For PvE player it's always the same they need challenge but there's no challenge againt AI, dodge this dodge that, go farm to get the best stuff to access a better raid/dungeons. repeat
- PvP doesnt belong to MMORPGs - MMORPGs should be PvE only - if you want to do PvP gtfo and play mobas or fps - able to do PvP right from the start is bad because most players are some kind retarded and cant figure the controls
dont make me laugh, why you guys play mmos when there are plenty of single/coop rpgs? right...there is a reason why ppl play mmos, PvPer or PvEer, it doesnt matter, both are part of mmorpgs, pve players are not forced to do pvp in most mmos, but pvp players are forced to do pve, giving the player the choice to do what they want right from the start is something any game should offer, there isnt one right way to play an mmo.
About the same amount of games force PvE'ers to PvP as the other way around. Not sure what games you are playing.
If you don't like PvE, then stick to MOBAs? Its basically PvP without the imbalance of no-life PvE geared players.
Agreed, why are you looking for PvP in an MMO if you don't also like PVE content, aren't there better games or genres suited to someone who just wants to PvP?
If you don't like PvE, then stick to MOBAs? Its basically PvP without the imbalance of no-life PvE geared players.
Agreed, why are you looking for PvP in an MMO if you don't also like PVE content, aren't there better games or genres suited to someone who just wants to PvP?
? The only reason to play an mmo is for the pvp, why on earth would you play for the pve when a regular rpg does it so much better and some even allow co-op these days?
If you don't like PvE, then stick to MOBAs? Its basically PvP without the imbalance of no-life PvE geared players.
Agreed, why are you looking for PvP in an MMO if you don't also like PVE content, aren't there better games or genres suited to someone who just wants to PvP?
? The only reason to play an mmo is for the pvp, why on earth would you play for the pve when a regular rpg does it so much better and some even allow co-op these days?
Why on earth would you play mmo, which are primarily pve, when a pure pvp game does pvp better?
I find it humorous when people go on about PVP in any context in an MMORPG. You know the key difference in most MMORPGs these days vs way back in the day in that regard? Vile communities that are so interested in beating on each other or trolling that PVP has become a griefing tool and was sent off to be instanced heavily. Rarely in open world PVP do you see policing done like it was back in the day and a purely PVP based game in the MMORPG scene would be boring as all shit. They've tried it several times and many times it fails to bring in enough customers for a game to even sort of survive.
For those that wish to PVP there are many games out there expressly made for it and a few coming (like camelot unchained) go play those and leave MMORPG's that try and balance some fun for both sides alone already. PVP'ers need to realize they are a MINORITY and stop trying to change every game to suit their particular play styles. And it's rarely that they actually want PVP they just want open world, no consequence for killing other players gankfests most of the time.
If you don't like PvE, then stick to MOBAs? Its basically PvP without the imbalance of no-life PvE geared players.
Agreed, why are you looking for PvP in an MMO if you don't also like PVE content, aren't there better games or genres suited to someone who just wants to PvP?
? The only reason to play an mmo is for the pvp, why on earth would you play for the pve when a regular rpg does it so much better and some even allow co-op these days?
Why on earth would you play mmo, which are primarily pve, when a pure pvp game does pvp better?
Why on earth would you play an mmo, which are primarily interesting because of player interaction, for pve when a single player rpg does it so much better?
Pvp totally depends on player interaction, it is really the only thing which both fully leverages the communal online experience provided by mmos and makes virtual fantasy worlds actually come alive. If you want to play a good game against AI with friends the best bet are games like Divinity Original Sin.
This is one reason why I am so excited for Camelot Unchained, a game that rewards you mainly through player interaction rather than the kind of mind-numbing activities that constitute the bulk of the experience of most pve in mmos.
PvP player only need balance between class and a map where they can fight for their faction/guild in a "world" add some objective and voila! you have now acces to millions of player who already play moba/fps but need something more immersive with a bit of fantasy.
Balance between classes--in a game where imbalance (due to time played/content completed/gear acquired) is the rule, not the exception.
Which forces what? It forces you to PVE--or at least spend extraordinary amounts of time chasing gear--in order to keep up with Jones.
Contradictory goals. Not the developer's fault. But gear imbalance/time served is the primary character advancement mechanic in nearly all MMORPGs.
Sorry it's antithetical to the ultimate PVP game ideal, but there it is. Makes 'balance' stand out as a surrealistic pipe dream, doesn't it?
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
On the pvp only servers, you can be "born" at the cap. But you can't transfer out to another server type.
Oh, the developers won't like that, though. They love those Server Transfer Dollars.
And even if you start at the cap, in most systems, you're far from "maxed out". More of that dreaded time investment in character advancement will still be required to Keep Up With Jones. So it doesn't answer the original issue, not at all.
Too integral to the entire concept of mmorpg's to escape.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you want an instant buffed character with no plausible realism to how he got that way,then you want a cheap fast mindless arcade game.
I have been saying it since day 1,PVP and PVE do NOT belong in the same game.
I feel most people are biased in that they like either or.I am not one of those ,i love BOTH aspects of gaming,i have been doing both pve and pvp for longer than some are old.I cannot stand to see a game ruin either aspect trying to combine them,it does NOT work.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The main reason I play GW2 is because of the structured pvp (no leveling/gear so its just focused on skill and teamwork), and like you say the WvW is also fairly accessible in that game.
Hopefully Crowfall and Camelot Unchained will be good since those games appear to be totally focused on pvp which will be a pleasant change.
I know that, the question was addressed explicitly to nariusseldon which was making all the wrong examples to validate his point.
It was an invitation to share his knowledge.
Here
The MMO I was suggesting in my little quiz was EvE obviously.
I am well aware EvE managed to get the right balance between PvP and PvE, but some people are not so aware, they talk a lot about PvP though they don't even know the subject very well.
The closest example is GW2, which will give you max level + full gear character for e-sports pvp. Obviously you cannot do that in open world pvp.
So again, the answer is that what he would like, in my (and prob many dev's) opinion, not a good idea.
If you want pure (skill-based) PVP, it's found in plenty of other genres like FPS, RTS, MOBA, and Fighting games, and in fact this non-casual PVP is far more popular than the casual PVP offered by MMORPGs.
So no, not all of us will blindly defend the various MMORPG PVP implementations. To me the most logical method is: (a) find the best PVE games; play PVE in those games, and (b) find the best PVP games; play PVP in those games. Rarely is there overlap (and if there is it doesn't last long; like how Starcraft 2 has fantastic PVE and PVP, but the PVE is quickly consumed.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
GW2 allowing sPvP without PvE is great. I only wished they allowed me to go craft my precursors without having to set foot in PvP. Or to have a bit more flexibility in changing my stats and runes/sigil swapping in PvE.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
The real cancer of any mmorpg nowadays is PvE player who clean all the content in less than 2 month then leave the game.
PvP player only need balance between class and a map where they can fight for their faction/guild in a "world" add some objective and voila! you have now acces to millions of player who already play moba/fps but need something more immersive with a bit of fantasy.
And one thing please do not allow PvE player to become better than us because they have more stuff acquired against AI ...
For PvE player it's always the same they need challenge but there's no challenge againt AI, dodge this dodge that, go farm to get the best stuff to access a better raid/dungeons. repeat
For those that wish to PVP there are many games out there expressly made for it and a few coming (like camelot unchained) go play those and leave MMORPG's that try and balance some fun for both sides alone already. PVP'ers need to realize they are a MINORITY and stop trying to change every game to suit their particular play styles. And it's rarely that they actually want PVP they just want open world, no consequence for killing other players gankfests most of the time.
Pvp totally depends on player interaction, it is really the only thing which both fully leverages the communal online experience provided by mmos and makes virtual fantasy worlds actually come alive. If you want to play a good game against AI with friends the best bet are games like Divinity Original Sin.
This is one reason why I am so excited for Camelot Unchained, a game that rewards you mainly through player interaction rather than the kind of mind-numbing activities that constitute the bulk of the experience of most pve in mmos.
Which forces what? It forces you to PVE--or at least spend extraordinary amounts of time chasing gear--in order to keep up with Jones.
Contradictory goals. Not the developer's fault. But gear imbalance/time served is the primary character advancement mechanic in nearly all MMORPGs.
Sorry it's antithetical to the ultimate PVP game ideal, but there it is. Makes 'balance' stand out as a surrealistic pipe dream, doesn't it?