Bard: Composing your own music and dances.

Amsai · December 2015

I started this thread over in the official forums but wanted to bring it here as well. And while I know Bard is not yet official, I just wanted to see what people think about it. Or for that matter anything else about bard.

When we do get bards. I was thinking having the ability (even if its very basic or requires a skill) to make our own melodies and assign them to a song would be great. Kind of like what can be done in LotRO (though Im not sure they can actually assign songs to spells). It just seems like it would be a really fun type game within the game.

Also I remember reading from Brad or somebody on the dev team about maybe silenced or something similar type environments. And it was said there would be both vocal and hand gesture spells. It kind of hit me when I was reading and thinking about the underwater thread. Bards couldnt play music underwater or in a silenced environment (yes I know we could just call it magic and be ok with it too lol). But instead of hand gestures maybe they could perform a dance instead?

I know I know............... bard isnt official, still.........

Thoughts?

ste2000 · December 2015

Did you play a Bard in Vanguard?
That should answer your question.

Amsai · December 2015

Nope. Do tell.

Felwit · December 2015

If you mean to actually compose a little piece of music that would play on your and other people's computers when you do a particular Bard song, probably not. It is of no real beneficial value, but opens Pantheon up to copyright infringement suits.

To avoid copyright issues, Pantheon could provide 100 or so songs that you could then assign, but I would still prefer to avoid that. If I hear Bard 1 playing the "Ding, Ding, Ding" song, I want it to mean the same thing as when I group with Bard 2 and hear the "Ding, Ding, Ding" song. I don't want it to mean "AoE mezz" for Bard 1, but "AoE damage" on Bard 2, and "Run speed for retreating" on Bard 3. If Pantheon is going to provide an audio indicator, then provide one that conveys more information than "Bard is doing something."

That is all assuming you will hear anything for Bard songs, as it might just interfere with evoking the mood via ambient music.

Sovrath · December 2015

Felwit said:

If you mean to actually compose a little piece of music that would play on your and other people's computers when you do a particular Bard song, probably not. It is of no real beneficial value, but opens Pantheon up to copyright infringement suits.

nah, Lord of the Rings has been doing this for years. They have a music system where you can directly play a piece or use some sort of "code" system (I can't for the life of me remember what it's called) and it will be played.

You can play another person's music in public. The issue becomes whether you can play another person's music and then benefit from it financially. However, Thousands (most likely more) of wedding musicians play all sorts of popular tunes for weddings every day. There are no lawsuits.

Amsai · December 2015

Well...... some kind of stick in the mud responses. But OK then. For clarification I did mean more of a medieval type basic sound (emphasis on the basic). With traditional music from simple string and woodwind. Just simple tunes to personalize it more, IF you wanted to.

There could also be an option in settings so you dont have to hear peoples "American Idol" auditions. Not too complicated. This game is being made in honor of EQ, not with the original 1999 tech limitations. Hey if ya think the idea sucks, fine, but dont shit on it simply for not wanting to go into your settings and turn it off.

As to Bard songs always being the same for identification purposes. I can understand that to a limited degree. At which point that gets back to what I said earlier. Its not like they cant put a button in the settings that makes it where you hear the "normal" tune associated with a song. More to the point though, people usually determine what spells being cast or have been cast from status bars/icons, battle text, and spell animation with every other type of magic. I dont know about you but I believe I could still figure it out even with a different tune.

At the very least even if we cant compose, Id at least hope for different tunes per type of spell. I always found it boring in some of the older games that you played the same tune for EVERY song. Think we can at least do better than that.

Lastly, No one has an opinion on dancing versus hand gestures for Bard?

skeaser · December 2015

Amsai · December 2015

skeaser said:

One of many reasons I regret never playing it....... /sigh.

Thanks for the pic Skeaser!

Sinist · December 2015

drivendawn said:

ReallyNow10 said:

After the advent of Rap ... no. However, if they can keep the tunes to a medieval-period style, I might be more open. Still, there would be so much randomness, I think it best that some pre-composed standards be in the game. For those who really want to perform their own music ... there's American Idol.

Wow, I look at this way different than you I guess. I think this adds an element of awsome creativeness just like it did in Lotro. American Idol yeah, nice jab at his idea and not a good comparison at all. >.>

It also opens up the bad side. I got so tired of hearing AC/DC, Metallica, etc... in LoTRO, it destroyed the atmosphere, killed the feel of the game.

I would rather players have a little less freedom so that consistency and uniformity of the game can exist than give freedom so people can turn the game into a mockery. It is the same with RL holiday event stuff turning the game into a joke.

Kajidourden · December 2015

Holiday events given their own lore twist I think are fine. Playing "Hell's Bells" in the prancing pony inn? No. Talk about total immersion destruction and 4th wall.

Amsai · December 2015

Believe me guys, I hear you. And whatever else you feel about it. No I did not mean metallica covers etc.

Adamantine · December 2015

Quite frankly I want Bards to stay the heck silent.

Constant music from Bards, that sounds like something so annoying that I would end up wanting to bombard them with tungsten bars from orbit.

Antiquated · December 2015

Ah, for the bygone days of roleplaying when bards actually performed original music in public. Annual competitions, even.

Sorry, MMO bards. You'll always be stuck with second best.

A game that doesn't give serious consideration to how public performance will (or won't) work should not even consider Bards as a class. Stage mechanics are not simple. Can your bards /sing, or do they just play cheesy little 8-bit tinkling sound loops?

Can they work with props? Do you even remember props, mmo developers? Manipulatable Physical Objects with no purpose other than roleplay support? Oh yeah, they create some annoying animation issues.

Dancing (outside of limp emotes) is another order of magnitude more difficult.

Will your MMO ever see Opera performed on stage? With an orchestra?

Can't overcome the limitations of the medium, not without some very serious developer effort.

Prediction: easier to half-ass it, like all the other titles did.

kevjards · December 2015

Played a Bard in Vanguard and it was amazing.Loved the mods.Took me a while to get the hang of it but omg what a class.Here's hoping they do something similar in Pantheon that's for sure.I can remember running faster than the epic mounts.Well apart from the flying ones that is.Not so sure about playing songs though.Given their tight budget I seriously doubt they would implement something like this.Although it would be great if they did.

Po_gg · December 2015

Honestly, I'm a bit puzzled by the LotRO example, based on your OP you seek something like Vanguard or Mabinogi, where music is (was, in Vanguard) part of the game mechanics, with skills and stuff you rank up and all that BS.
LotRO's music is purely for fun and roleplay (luckily

) and has nothing to do neither with combat nor with grind. (but on a sidenote, Vanguard's bard was pretty fun. I still miss Diplomacy more, though)

So, with that in mind, and with all the following are off-topic

Sovrath said:

nah, Lord of the Rings has been doing this for years. They have a music system where you can directly play a piece or use some sort of "code" system (I can't for the life of me remember what it's called) and it will be played.

You can play another person's music in public. The issue becomes whether you can play another person's music and then benefit from it financially.

It's called .abc or .abc notation, and it's not LotRO's system, it's a standard for sheet music interpretation for the digital world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_notation ). LotRO just implemented it, alongside the regular "playing on the keyboard" method.
You're right, it's only a copyright issue if there's a financial (or other) gain from the performance, nobody's gonna sue you if you play some music for yourself or for friends, or in a game

Sinist said:

It also opens up the bad side. I got so tired of hearing AC/DC, Metallica, etc... in LoTRO, it destroyed the atmosphere, killed the feel of the game. [...]

That coin has two sides... playing a good, well-transcripted song is still a boon, and covers are very popular usually among the audience. Plus, people tend to start playing music with songs they're familiar with (like Twinkle twinkle little star, or Frère Jacques), then seeking .abc files, and only after that, and only a few will start to compose. Nobody is sitting down with a new instrument (and you can consider LotRO's music as one) with "ok, I'll write some music as a start"
On the other side, I agree as well. Maybe not "kill the feel", but not really fit indeed. (except for thematic concerts, where they say in front they will play cover songs. Bara Bahau for example is great with metal and rock - like dwarves usually

) I too prefer composed pieces more, and luckily there's plenty of those as well in game. Achazia used to write amazing songs... (even if I prefer hobbit-themed ones

elvish sorrow is not really my thing.)

Sinist · December 2015

Sinist said:

It also opens up the bad side. I got so tired of hearing AC/DC, Metallica, etc... in LoTRO, it destroyed the atmosphere, killed the feel of the game. [...]

That coin has two sides... playing a good, well-transcripted song is still a boon, and covers are very popular usually among the audience. Plus, people tend to start playing music with songs they're familiar with (like Twinkle twinkle little star, or Frère Jacques), then seeking .abc files, and only after that, and only a few will start to compose. Nobody is sitting down with a new instrument (and you can consider LotRO's music as one) with "ok, I'll write some music as a start"
On the other side, I agree as well. Maybe not "kill the feel", but not really fit indeed. (except for thematic concerts, where they say in front they will play cover songs. Bara Bahau for example is great with metal and rock - like dwarves usually ) I too prefer composed pieces more, and luckily there's plenty of those as well in game. Achazia used to write amazing songs... (even if I prefer hobbit-themed ones elvish sorrow is not really my thing.)

It isn't just the fact just the music I mentioned, but that the music will be counter to the theme that Pantheon is. I want to see consistency in that environment and feel as this is extremely important to what provides that feel in game, what EQ initially provided in its own feel (EQs music had a profound effect on people where to this day people still get a certain feeling when it is played).

Players creating their own music may be very good, even brilliant at times, but even in such creations or selections of quality, it is still likely to conflict with the feel and theme to which is Pantheon. I understand peoples desire to have freedom, but such I think is less important than having a consistent world without influences outside that world.

Also, the game mechanic side of things is important to. Hearing a given melody in play can be a key skill in player learning with grouping or dealing with NPCs. That is, one melody might be that of a certain temp buff ability which signals the player to the timing to hit their special ability. Another may be an mob bard doing a certain song that all know to be a charm, or a build AoE or the like to which by recognizing it, the players may be able to interrupt, or react to it in some way. If players are able to make their own music, it means that those things could be different from play to player, with no real consistency in play, removing it as a game play element.

Po_gg · December 2015

Sinist said:

It isn't just the fact just the music I mentioned, but that the music will be counter to the theme that Pantheon is. [..]
Also, the game mechanic side of things is important to. [..] If players are able to make their own music, it means that those things could be different from play to player, with no real consistency in play, removing it as a game play element.

(snipped a bit, but) I agree. That's why I said LotRO is not a good example and put my post in a big off-topic bracket

OP longed for a music system within the gameplay mechanics of leveling, combat, etc. and LotRO's system is the exact opposite. As ste2000 replied right at the start, Vanguard bard could be a much better example and a base for the conversation.

Amathe · December 2015

I think that since Pantheon is meant to be a social game, the ability to create your own music adds value . For example, in GW2, players can create their own melodies for musical instruments (though sadly no bard class). Some players are amazingly good. I have sat for as much as a half hour just listening to how good some of them are. I'm sure there would need to be checks and balances, but I'm in favor of the general idea of letting a musician class create music.

Sinist · December 2015

Amathe said:

I think that since Pantheon is meant to be a social game, the ability to create your own music adds value . For example, in GW2, players can create their own melodies for musical instruments (though sadly no bard class). Some players are amazingly good. I have sat for as much as a half hour just listening to how good some of them are. I'm sure there would need to be checks and balances, but I'm in favor of the general idea of letting a musician class create music.

GW2 isn't a very favorable example as they are the prime example of mainstream and I personally don't want anything to do with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUP1-kf2zs

Candy canes, Christmas packages being carried around, jumping on candy stairs and playing guitar hero style game. No thanks.

Having people pump out their own music or using various covers of songs today, no thanks.

And this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_fYLWgfUr0

HELL NO!

Amsai · December 2015

Damn Sinist, You are such a Negative Nancy at times. Well I cant wrong you for your opinion, and I cant say some of your points arent valid. But its really killing the spirit of my OP, and nobody still has commented on the second part. /cry. At least you seem to agree with me that the songs should at least not all be the same melody?

And Po_gg maybe you are right about VG being a better reference, I didnt play VG and didnt even know it had such a system. Until the other person above posted a pic so please feel free to expand upon it from a VG perspective.

All things being equal, I just want a fun system. But I dont want metallica, never did really. Maybe there could be a system to submit to a community policing body, seeing as some people are so keen with community policing. Keep it simple,keep it short (no 10 min tunes just short melodies), keep it "period" appropriate, keep it fitting within the game, and offer bard music "off" for those that dont want any (dev or player made) and a bard music "dev only" button for those that want to be able to recognize it by sound.

Oh and if it wasnt obvious Im not demanding player made music. Hell Bard isnt even official yet. Id settle for getting Bard period. And I just think this would be a nice feature to add at some point in the future. Wouldnt have to launch with bard.

Now the second part of my original post would need to be one way or another at launch of Bard (whenever that may be). Because its confirmed that there would be both vocal and hand gestures for casters. I m just asking for dances (even if simple and short) as opposed to hand gestures because that makes more sense to me for a bard. However for a sorcerer or enchanter or what have you, finger waggling definitely makes more sense.

Amathe · December 2015

It is silly to say that just because a game is mainstream, each and every thing in that game is automatically tainted. It is also silly to think that just because a player likes one feature in a game with tens of thousands of features, that player wants them all incorporated wholesale. /boggle

Players battle foes with weapons and cast spells in "mainstream" games." So I guess all those things are out in Pantheon? We will just write any monsters we encounter (if monsters are allowed) a very stern letter instead!

A more relevant link on the musical issue is:

Sinist · December 2015

Amsai said:

Damn Sinist, You are such a Negative Nancy at times. Well I cant wrong you for your opinion, and I cant say some of your points arent valid. But its really killing the spirit of my OP, and nobody still has commented on the second part. /cry. At least you seem to agree with me that the songs should at least not all be the same melody?

And Po_gg maybe you are right about VG being a better reference, I didnt play VG and didnt even know it had such a system. Until the other person above posted a pic so please feel free to expand upon it from a VG perspective.

All things being equal, I just want a fun system. But I dont want metallica, never did really. Maybe there could be a system to submit to a community policing body, seeing as some people are so keen with community policing. Keep it simple,keep it short (no 10 min tunes just short melodies), keep it "period" appropriate, keep it fitting within the game, and offer bard music "off" for those that dont want any (dev or player made) and a bard music "dev only" button for those that want to be able to recognize it by sound.

Oh and if it wasnt obvious Im not demanding player made music. Hell Bard isnt even official yet. Id settle for getting Bard period. And I just think this would be a nice feature to add at some point in the future. Wouldnt have to launch with bard.

Now the second part of my original post would need to be one way or another at launch of Bard (whenever that may be). Because its confirmed that there would be both vocal and hand gestures for casters. I m just asking for dances (even if simple and short) as opposed to hand gestures because that makes more sense to me for a bard. However for a sorcerer or enchanter or what have you, finger waggling definitely makes more sense.

I don't mean to be such a mood killer, it is just that these types of "freedoms" never end well in these games. You always end up with outside influences and conflicting ones. Now in a game like GW2, Wildstar, WoW, etc... those type of goofy allowances work, it is their style and direction, but in a game like this, it is the same problem LoTRO had where the allowance completely destroyed the games setting and honestly, I am tired of seeing it and with there being TONS of games out there that already cater to it, I don't see the need for it. It is best suited elsewhere.

Now you could try to implement it via community policy and various approaches, but lets be honest it won;t stop it from happening, it won't go away so as soon as you open the door for it, you will have exactly as I mentioned, the good and the bad. I would prefer it not be allowed so the developers can focus on bringing content rather than numerous gimmicks for people to sit around toying around with stuff (ie turning the game into a glorified chat room).

Now the second part of your discussion, with music based abilities changing in environments (ie underwater like we talked about), that works right into game play, the main point of a "game". The entertainment gimmicks I think are less important than a solid game play experience. As for dancing, the bard did dance in EQ, so that isn't something new and if they ever do introduce one, I would hope they would stay within that flavor of the EQ bard.

I just know what happens when you allow a bridge from the outside world into the game and while there may be some that bring some nice editions, it is always at the cost of the bulk of it being a negative experience. Pantheon I would like to be a more serious game (which it appears to be). I think we have had enough of the cartoon MMOs where everything is a Animaniacs episode or a marketing gimmick from the outside world.

Antiquated · December 2015

Sinist said:
I just know what happens when you allow a bridge from the outside world into the game and while there may be some that bring some nice editions, it is always at the cost of the bulk of it being a negative experience. Pantheon I would like to be a more serious game (which it appears to be). I think we have had enough of the cartoon MMOs where everything is a Animaniacs episode or a marketing gimmick from the outside world.

It only requires a company actually committed to both supporting and enforcing roleplay.

Seen any of those around in the last ten years? Me neither. The CS staff cost is non-zero. The cost in banned accounts is necessarily non-zero.

Both costs make corporate bean-counters very angry.

Sinist · December 2015

Torval said:

It has not destroyed anything in LotRO. The benefit has been huge in creating and cementing solid community bonds.

In LotRO you can turn off player music anytime you want so the immersion argument is bogus. All those modern songs you mention don't sound modern played through medieval types of instrument voices any more than ancient songs have to sound old played electronically. With you it always goes back to whether EQ did it and how EQ did it. This game is not going to be EQ.

We already know modern songs, so hearing "You shook me all night long" or "I like Big Butts" completely destroys the feel because as soon as you hear it, you know EXACTLY what it is from and it pulls you out of the world and into the idiocy of today. So yes, it does obstruct, it does infringe on any sane aspect of immersion.

EQ achieved those bonds without all this crap you are pining for. I have friends I still play with that are from EQ, over 15 years of friendship, so please excuse me if I don't buy into your claim.

Again, this game is designed around EQ/VG, trying to achieve the spirit of them. You are in the wrong game forum if you are going to spout off that I need to accept this game is not EQ. This game is more EQ than it is mainstream and if you can't accept that, sir... may I show you the door.

Amsai · December 2015

Sinist said:
Again, this game is designed around EQ/VG, trying to achieve the spirit of them. You are in the wrong game forum if you are going to spout off that I need to accept this game is not EQ. This game is more EQ than it is mainstream and if you can't accept that, sir... may I show you the door.

Come on Sinist, tone it down a notch man. But seriously while I agree that it is more EQ and VG then a lot of things. The Devs have said specifically several times to remind folks that it isnt EQ. It is its its own game. And while it draws a lot of influence from those 2 games, it doesnt mean that other games arent gonna have any influence. Also if you go to the FAQ and some of the other places on the main site there are some ideas there that are clearly not from either game (even if they are in the spirit of them somewhat). Instead of saying this game is mostly for EQ vets and VG refugees. Id like to think of it as a game for anyone that wants an old school PVE game in a new setting with modern tech. After all I am a FFXI vet and Im ecstatic about the game not because of how different EQ and XI are, but because of how similar they are.

Dont worry though, I promise we dont have to sing Kumbaya!

Sovrath · December 2015

Sinist said:

We already know modern songs, so hearing "You shook me all night long" or "I like Big Butts" completely destroys the feel because as soon as you hear it, you know EXACTLY what it is from and it pulls you out of the world and into the idiocy of today. So yes, it does obstruct, it does infringe on any sane aspect of immersion.

Then just "shut off" player music and you are "done".

He is right in that it has done a lot to cement community in Lord of the Rings Online, more so on Landroval server with the huge music festival that they have.

While I agree, I don't want to hear "modern" music" the chance at hearing something different is always worth it. And again, if I don't like something I turn it off.

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Bard: Composing your own music and dances.

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