Sinist said: Again, this game is designed around EQ/VG, trying to achieve the spirit of them. You are in the wrong game forum if you are going to spout off that I need to accept this game is not EQ. This game is more EQ than it is mainstream and if you can't accept that, sir... may I show you the door.
Come on Sinist, tone it down a notch man. But seriously while I agree that it is more EQ and VG then a lot of things. The Devs have said specifically several times to remind folks that it isnt EQ. It is its its own game. And while it draws a lot of influence from those 2 games, it doesnt mean that other games arent gonna have any influence. Also if you go to the FAQ and some of the other places on the main site there are some ideas there that are clearly not from either game (even if they are in the spirit of them somewhat). Instead of saying this game is mostly for EQ vets and VG refugees. Id like to think of it as a game for anyone that wants an old school PVE game in a new setting with modern tech. After all I am a FFXI vet and Im ecstatic about the game not because of how different EQ and XI are, but because of how similar they are.
Dont worry though, I promise we dont have to sing Kumbaya!
I know that, but lets face facts here. This game isn't being made to cater to the mainstream generation. They have said that over and over (ie the game is being tailored to a specific niche). They have also said this game is focused on the "spirit" of EQ/VG, what was the best of those games.
Now I know you FFXI and AC players are tired of the crap out there as well, that you also want something akin to your games of old, and I sympathize with that, and those games did have some interesting and workable ideas that would fit well in Pantheon, but mainstream is a different story. It is the death rattle of gaming and there is all too often a crowd who is more interested in the various "entertainment" frills of a a game than the game itself.
I have seen it over and over through the years Amsai, mainstream comes in... they demand mainstream, they get it, they consume in record time, drop the game and move on all the while bitching and moaning about how the game was weak crap and how they knew the game would fail from the start. LoTRO is the perfect example of this, I watched the devs fall into the mainstream attention trap and the game was eventually consumed by it only to be left to dangle in the wind after the locusts were finished.
You have seen my discussion, I am more than willing to discuss at length, respectfully and yes, we will disagree (hell, I disagreed with Brad here), but this tired "This isn't EQ" BS response is nothing more than a mainstream dismissal to avoid dealing with the problems of their request. If mainstream is so damn amazing, then why the hell are they here going on about how Pantheon should be just like the damn games they won't play?
I think I have been fair and respectful in the discussion, but this whole "This isn't EQ" as a fallacious dismissal? Nope.. not going to accept it. They say that, I say " move on, this game isn't for you". Fair enough?
I just want to be clear here. This game is likely my last interest in this genre. If this game doesn't pan out, I will dismiss the entire genre completely, close it out as just a failed industry gimmicking off the fad crowd. While the main-streamers passing by view this as yet another hop on their long list of hops through all the games out there, this one is important to people like me. I don't play MMOs anymore, heck, I don't play many games these days at all and this is coming from a guy who has taken part in the computer gaming industry from the early years it was formed.
It is dying because it is catering to not gamers, but people wanting cheap social media chat rooms and cheap entertainment. I have no desire to be a part of that, no interest in its bland and shallow systems.
So yes, I take a more personal note to this game and its direction. I am extremely leery of it, very judgmental and like a spooked animal am ready to run at any minute due to the gun shyness I have developed from the industry today.
So I will be polite, discuss civilly, but I will not back down or accept yet another compromise to things I have seen over and over result in the games we have today.
Man I miss the classes from Vanguard... I briefly played the bard because I was so enthralled with my Blood Mage(Which I hope they have in Pantheon or something similar) but when I did play him he was so incredibly fun for that reason right there. That pictures a thousand words. Brad and the team did such an amazing job on the classes in Vanguard I hope they can replicate that feeling in the classes in Pantheon. I miss so many classes from Vanguard. Blood Mage being one of them.
I guess to your last response, my response is I dont think that will happen (at least I pray it). From everything the devs have said I dont think Ive read anything that leads me to believe anything will be mainstream. There might be some things you love and some things you hate about Pantheon. But its not gonna be this perfect game that fills all our individual and very specific needs, and I dont expect it too. However, as long as I can find more old school than modern crap. As long as there is more to love than not, I dont think Ill be unhappy.
Also not everything falls into the mainstream or not argument. I dont see this whole music thing as being one or the other, to me its a neutral to whether something is oldschool or not. Now you could make the argument that something isnt EQ enough, but just because its not EQ doesnt make it mainstream. Hell if we want to get into a discussion about mainstream EQ is way way more mainstream than XI ever was by shear popularity and subs.
Im not saying dont be wary. Im not saying dont be vigilant and watchful about the modern crapfest that a lot of MMOs have become. Hell I dont want most of that crap in Pantheon either, but thats not to say I cant find certain (small number they may be) elements from modern MMOs that are cool. And there are plenty of old school examples from non-EQ games that are awesome. But you tend to be a little too rigid in your approach. You act as if the least little bit of change to what you want the game to be will ruin the whole game. The least little bit of influence outside of EQ will open the flood gates to full on WoW clone. This just doesnt seem likely to me at all!
It has not destroyed anything in LotRO. The benefit has been huge in creating and cementing solid community bonds.
In LotRO you can turn off player music anytime you want so the immersion argument is bogus. All those modern songs you mention don't sound modern played through medieval types of instrument voices any more than ancient songs have to sound old played electronically. With you it always goes back to whether EQ did it and how EQ did it. This game is not going to be EQ.
We already know modern songs, so hearing "You shook me all night long" or "I like Big Butts" completely destroys the feel because as soon as you hear it, you know EXACTLY what it is from and it pulls you out of the world and into the idiocy of today. So yes, it does obstruct, it does infringe on any sane aspect of immersion.
EQ achieved those bonds without all this crap you are pining for. I have friends I still play with that are from EQ, over 15 years of friendship, so please excuse me if I don't buy into your claim.
Again, this game is designed around EQ/VG, trying to achieve the spirit of them. You are in the wrong game forum if you are going to spout off that I need to accept this game is not EQ. This game is more EQ than it is mainstream and if you can't accept that, sir... may I show you the door.
If I hear a song I don't like or just don't feel like listening to player music. I turn it off.
This game isn't going to be EQ. It's going to be a current generation game with first gen design tropes as a guide. It certainly won't survive if a small clique of self-appointed community members dictate game discussions and tell everyone else they can go packing if they disagree with the EQ clone philosophy.
Tropes? Really? So EQ is just a trope used to sell this game? Seems like you aren't on board to what this game is (have you even read the tenants/features?). You dismiss that this game is designed around the core elements of first generation games design (specifically EQ/VG), not a gimmick to sell to nostalgia driven idiots, a marketing means or a fad to sell to the moron masses. Seems you have mistaken this game to be a mainstream game?
I am not saying people should go packing, I built a very solid argument on the fact that such detracts from the core elements of the games theme and design to cater to a concept that is counter to such an approach. You dismissed the result it had in LoTRO, also dismissing that LoTRO was turned int a mainstream garbage game attending to the lazy, inept and bored who couldn't be bothered with a game and simply wanted an entertainment chat room where they could play SIMS all day long. You didn't meet my argument, you simply told me that I should just "turn it off" if I didn't like it.
Now if your point is to say I can turn it off completely, not hear a single player based melody and that all spells cast by a player will be the games default design of such (ie they cast mez, it will sound like the Devs mez spell, etc...), never affecting my game play in the slightest, fine... I can live with that.
Is that what you are suggesting? Is that the result that you confirm? If not, if it isn't perfectly as such, if I am not able to completely invalidate all player based sounds outside of the intended game based development, then we have a problem.
You act as if the least little bit of change to what you want the game to be will ruin the whole game. The least little bit of influence outside of EQ will open the flood gates to full on WoW clone. This just doesnt seem likely to me at all!
Yes... I do.. why? because I have seen it over and over and over again. been there, done that. This isn't the first MMO I have seen in alpha/beta. I have alpha/beta'd most of the MMOs in the early years and watched them slowly be turned into mainstream garabage.
I watch LoTRO be completely run down by the "WoW crowd", and many others as well.
It is the inch/mile conundrum, if they even attempt to appeal, they will blow it. It is important they first stay very strict and only loosen up slowly as needed. If they start too loose, it will be a repeat like all the others and people will swarm in, consume it, and move on.
I trust them to an extent, but no person is impervious to the pressures, even the most solid of positions wears under constant pressure.
I think as long as they can remain independent, they have the potential to be free of influence. LotRO is also from a major studio that did (for the most part) abandon their roots. They started with AC, then botched out AC2, then did a kinda loopy lobby with DDO then started with something decent with Lotro.............. then it inched towards not. There is a clear history of bad choices that probably were driven by money due to to it being a major studio.
Id say with Visionary Realms being an indie company and it having a team they started as volunteers and Having a clear goal of an old school EQ-like game. Your fears are unfounded. You cant judge them by the same metric as the AAA companies that have been pumping out crap. Or the Korean FTP crap. I strongly advise a wait and see approach. Stay vigilant, yes. Dont shoot down everything not of EQ. Dont expect EQ, or you are probably setting yourself up for failure (i mean a cabon copy), and dont be paranoid about game development.
I think as long as they can remain independent, they have the potential to be free of influence. LotRO is also from a major studio that did (for the most part) abandon their roots. They started with AC, then botched out AC2, then did a kinda loopy lobby with DDO then started with something decent with Lotro.............. then it inched towards not. There is a clear history of bad choices that probably were driven by money due to to it being a major studio.
Id say with Visionary Realms being an indie company and it having a team they started as volunteers and Having a clear goal of an old school EQ-like game. Your fears are unfounded. You cant judge them by the same metric as the AAA companies that have been pumping out crap. Or the Korean FTP crap. I strongly advise a wait and see approach. Stay vigilant, yes. Dont shoot down everything not of EQ. Dont expect EQ, or you are probably setting yourself up for failure (i mean a cabon copy), and dont be paranoid about game development.
Even well intending developers can be swayed if there is a loud enough cry for something. The "squeaky wheel" cause and effect should not be dismissed, regardless of who is developing the game.
My concerns are justified by over a decade of similar claims and statements made by developers only to result in the same continued progression of mainstream. I am not dismissing the intent and goals of the team, nor the dedication to their goal, but I will not play the part of a blind follower who simply "trusts" without verification.
There is nothing wrong with discussion, I gave my opinion, I argued my points, if people don't like it, they should consider locking themselves in a room with a mirror so they can find someone that agrees with them continuously.
I am not expecting a carbon copy of EQ, but I do expect its key features (as well as many lessons learned in VG) to be translated to this game, for it is those features that defined the game. I know you are a FFXI fan, and as I said I think some things are good about that game, but... there are a lot of features that conflict with EQ in its design and this is often where you and I will clash.
That said, if you notice my discussion, I did concede that a music system as such that allows a player to completely shut off all ability to experience player made content would be something I personally think acceptable as the implementation would have zero effect on the game play of another. At the same time, I also said that they are a limited team and time is better spent on game play focuses than various non-game play features, for the time being that is. This game will not succeed because systems like we are discussing, they add flavor, and feel, but they are not the core systems to what makes this game what it is.
Lastly, I have no problems discussing, but I won't accept the dismissals of "This is not EQ" as that is not a valid objection to a given arguments point, it is a means to ignore the concerns about a certain design style and focus. There are people who are oddly supporting this game who seem to make the case against every EQ feature leaving this game to not be a spiritual successor, but hollow shell in the name only just like EQNext is.
That said, if you notice my discussion, I did concede that a music system as such that allows a player to completely shut off all ability to experience player made content would be something I personally think acceptable as the implementation would have zero effect on the game play of another. At the same time, I also said that they are a limited team and time is better spent on game play focuses than various non-game play features, for the time being that is. This game will not succeed because systems like we are discussing, they add flavor, and feel, but they are not the core systems to what makes this game what it is.
I think you and me are basically on the same page Sinist, if not the same paragraph. And I tend to have a more optimistic view. Maybe I am being a bit naive, but I always take an innocent til proven guilty approach to most things. Of course if I start seeing VR pulling some BS I will call them on it too.
The bold part I 100% agree with. The Italic part I partially agree with. In the short term you are right. The core systems and mechanics are the most important things. But in the long run they will need these little flavor additions to help make it not only feel like a world but to also make sure everything isnt just raids, dungeons, and crafting.
I think Ill get back on topic though so either that happens or Ill let this thread die. Im sure there is a better thread to discuss all this heavy shit than in a bard music and dance thread lol. Feel free to make response point Sinist. But this will be my last as Im the most guilty of derailing my own thread.
But in the long run they will need these little flavor additions to
help make it not only feel like a world but to also make sure everything
isnt just raids, dungeons, and crafting.
Keep in mind EQ was simply that and even so it is still fondly remembered as deep and interactive world that people felt as living and breathing. The point is, the fluff is nice, but it isn't the heart of what makes the game, if it were, we would all be playing those games rather than waiting on this one.
Playing something for a crowd is one thing. But attaching it to your battle hymn and playing it in an 8 second loop over and over would get old very quickly.
edit: thanks for that pic Mackaveli. Brings back memories. I also liked that you could name your song in VG. My main battle song was "Scream Thy Last Scream" an early Floyd rarity.
Comments
I know that, but lets face facts here. This game isn't being made to cater to the mainstream generation. They have said that over and over (ie the game is being tailored to a specific niche). They have also said this game is focused on the "spirit" of EQ/VG, what was the best of those games.
Now I know you FFXI and AC players are tired of the crap out there as well, that you also want something akin to your games of old, and I sympathize with that, and those games did have some interesting and workable ideas that would fit well in Pantheon, but mainstream is a different story. It is the death rattle of gaming and there is all too often a crowd who is more interested in the various "entertainment" frills of a a game than the game itself.
I have seen it over and over through the years Amsai, mainstream comes in... they demand mainstream, they get it, they consume in record time, drop the game and move on all the while bitching and moaning about how the game was weak crap and how they knew the game would fail from the start. LoTRO is the perfect example of this, I watched the devs fall into the mainstream attention trap and the game was eventually consumed by it only to be left to dangle in the wind after the locusts were finished.
You have seen my discussion, I am more than willing to discuss at length, respectfully and yes, we will disagree (hell, I disagreed with Brad here), but this tired "This isn't EQ" BS response is nothing more than a mainstream dismissal to avoid dealing with the problems of their request. If mainstream is so damn amazing, then why the hell are they here going on about how Pantheon should be just like the damn games they won't play?
I think I have been fair and respectful in the discussion, but this whole "This isn't EQ" as a fallacious dismissal? Nope.. not going to accept it. They say that, I say " move on, this game isn't for you". Fair enough?
I just want to be clear here. This game is likely my last interest in this genre. If this game doesn't pan out, I will dismiss the entire genre completely, close it out as just a failed industry gimmicking off the fad crowd. While the main-streamers passing by view this as yet another hop on their long list of hops through all the games out there, this one is important to people like me. I don't play MMOs anymore, heck, I don't play many games these days at all and this is coming from a guy who has taken part in the computer gaming industry from the early years it was formed.
It is dying because it is catering to not gamers, but people wanting cheap social media chat rooms and cheap entertainment. I have no desire to be a part of that, no interest in its bland and shallow systems.
So yes, I take a more personal note to this game and its direction. I am extremely leery of it, very judgmental and like a spooked animal am ready to run at any minute due to the gun shyness I have developed from the industry today.
So I will be polite, discuss civilly, but I will not back down or accept yet another compromise to things I have seen over and over result in the games we have today.
I guess to your last response, my response is I dont think that will happen (at least I pray it). From everything the devs have said I dont think Ive read anything that leads me to believe anything will be mainstream. There might be some things you love and some things you hate about Pantheon. But its not gonna be this perfect game that fills all our individual and very specific needs, and I dont expect it too. However, as long as I can find more old school than modern crap. As long as there is more to love than not, I dont think Ill be unhappy.
Also not everything falls into the mainstream or not argument. I dont see this whole music thing as being one or the other, to me its a neutral to whether something is oldschool or not. Now you could make the argument that something isnt EQ enough, but just because its not EQ doesnt make it mainstream. Hell if we want to get into a discussion about mainstream EQ is way way more mainstream than XI ever was by shear popularity and subs.
Im not saying dont be wary. Im not saying dont be vigilant and watchful about the modern crapfest that a lot of MMOs have become. Hell I dont want most of that crap in Pantheon either, but thats not to say I cant find certain (small number they may be) elements from modern MMOs that are cool. And there are plenty of old school examples from non-EQ games that are awesome. But you tend to be a little too rigid in your approach. You act as if the least little bit of change to what you want the game to be will ruin the whole game. The least little bit of influence outside of EQ will open the flood gates to full on WoW clone. This just doesnt seem likely to me at all!
Tropes? Really? So EQ is just a trope used to sell this game? Seems like you aren't on board to what this game is (have you even read the tenants/features?). You dismiss that this game is designed around the core elements of first generation games design (specifically EQ/VG), not a gimmick to sell to nostalgia driven idiots, a marketing means or a fad to sell to the moron masses. Seems you have mistaken this game to be a mainstream game?
I am not saying people should go packing, I built a very solid argument on the fact that such detracts from the core elements of the games theme and design to cater to a concept that is counter to such an approach. You dismissed the result it had in LoTRO, also dismissing that LoTRO was turned int a mainstream garbage game attending to the lazy, inept and bored who couldn't be bothered with a game and simply wanted an entertainment chat room where they could play SIMS all day long. You didn't meet my argument, you simply told me that I should just "turn it off" if I didn't like it.
Now if your point is to say I can turn it off completely, not hear a single player based melody and that all spells cast by a player will be the games default design of such (ie they cast mez, it will sound like the Devs mez spell, etc...), never affecting my game play in the slightest, fine... I can live with that.
Is that what you are suggesting? Is that the result that you confirm? If not, if it isn't perfectly as such, if I am not able to completely invalidate all player based sounds outside of the intended game based development, then we have a problem.
So, are you ok with that level of limitation?
I watch LoTRO be completely run down by the "WoW crowd", and many others as well.
It is the inch/mile conundrum, if they even attempt to appeal, they will blow it. It is important they first stay very strict and only loosen up slowly as needed. If they start too loose, it will be a repeat like all the others and people will swarm in, consume it, and move on.
I trust them to an extent, but no person is impervious to the pressures, even the most solid of positions wears under constant pressure.
Id say with Visionary Realms being an indie company and it having a team they started as volunteers and Having a clear goal of an old school EQ-like game. Your fears are unfounded. You cant judge them by the same metric as the AAA companies that have been pumping out crap. Or the Korean FTP crap. I strongly advise a wait and see approach. Stay vigilant, yes. Dont shoot down everything not of EQ. Dont expect EQ, or you are probably setting yourself up for failure (i mean a cabon copy), and dont be paranoid about game development.
SOE maybe crap at patching, developing and keeping games popular or alive but they sure were good at making musician classes in games at least, lol
My concerns are justified by over a decade of similar claims and statements made by developers only to result in the same continued progression of mainstream. I am not dismissing the intent and goals of the team, nor the dedication to their goal, but I will not play the part of a blind follower who simply "trusts" without verification.
There is nothing wrong with discussion, I gave my opinion, I argued my points, if people don't like it, they should consider locking themselves in a room with a mirror so they can find someone that agrees with them continuously.
I am not expecting a carbon copy of EQ, but I do expect its key features (as well as many lessons learned in VG) to be translated to this game, for it is those features that defined the game. I know you are a FFXI fan, and as I said I think some things are good about that game, but... there are a lot of features that conflict with EQ in its design and this is often where you and I will clash.
That said, if you notice my discussion, I did concede that a music system as such that allows a player to completely shut off all ability to experience player made content would be something I personally think acceptable as the implementation would have zero effect on the game play of another. At the same time, I also said that they are a limited team and time is better spent on game play focuses than various non-game play features, for the time being that is. This game will not succeed because systems like we are discussing, they add flavor, and feel, but they are not the core systems to what makes this game what it is.
Lastly, I have no problems discussing, but I won't accept the dismissals of "This is not EQ" as that is not a valid objection to a given arguments point, it is a means to ignore the concerns about a certain design style and focus. There are people who are oddly supporting this game who seem to make the case against every EQ feature leaving this game to not be a spiritual successor, but hollow shell in the name only just like EQNext is.
The bold part I 100% agree with. The Italic part I partially agree with. In the short term you are right. The core systems and mechanics are the most important things. But in the long run they will need these little flavor additions to help make it not only feel like a world but to also make sure everything isnt just raids, dungeons, and crafting.
I think Ill get back on topic though so either that happens or Ill let this thread die. Im sure there is a better thread to discuss all this heavy shit than in a bard music and dance thread lol. Feel free to make response point Sinist. But this will be my last as Im the most guilty of derailing my own thread.
edit: thanks for that pic Mackaveli. Brings back memories. I also liked that you could name your song in VG. My main battle song was "Scream Thy Last Scream" an early Floyd rarity.