Do you mean 2-3 minutes for a pack, or a single mob?
I feel that ~45 seconds (with good, but not great, gear) is a good TTK if a group focuses an average mob; obviously it would be good to have mobs with different HP* levels thus TTK. 2-3 minutes would be a good average time for a trash** encounter, with an average of 2-4 mobs per pack.
* I say HP but this really means both HP and damage mitigation. I would love to see an MMO where damage types, debuffs, etc. had a meaningful impact on TTK. Fighting the undead? Don't forget your clubs, fire and holy water.
** I don't really like the term trash as most mobs should serve some purpose, even it is just to get a key to open a door it makes them seem worth the time to kill. A room full of mobs for the sake of it is just annoying and makes you want to skip it.
The main reason I say ~45 seconds is a good TTK is due to ability cooldowns, which IMO should be kept somewhere in the 30 to 90 second range***. Make them much longer and they tend not to get used because they simply aren't reliable, much shorter and they get annoying to constantly re-apply. If TTK is too high (for the average fight), then it just starts getting too repetitive; cycling cooldowns multiple times on every fight is just tiring and if TTK is too low, as the OP said, then everything is dead before you've even warmed up.
*** One exception to this is Oh S### buttons, which should still be kept under 10 minutes (4-6 seems good). Another down side to having long cooldowns is that they tend to need to be made more powerful to justify it, which leads to being overpowered when you have it and underpowered when you don't (pally bubble anyone?); a happy medium is always better.
On a bit of a side note I would also like to see very low vertical progression. One of the issues in FFXIV at the moment is that level 50 content is now trivial, and while it is nice to be able to roll a dungeon that was once challenging it is also rather boring and teaches players some very bad habits. There should still be vertical progress, but it needs to a long road with many tiny hops along the way.
That is too fast in my opinion. Remember, doing groups at a time isn't going to be something that you will want to do. That is, the whole "AoE them down" type of game play I don't think is going to be all that effective in most circumstances. So, hp/mana management is a element of play, you need to lock down mobs so that the party can focus on a single target usually (one example). In that time, you have to apply slows, debuffs, etc... allow DoTs to work, and various other effects. If you can take out a mob in 45 seconds, that is a waste of mana, waste of effort and the rule of "DPS is King!" takes over. You see, why bother with all those debuffers, CCers, etc... when I can bring in a crack DPS team and mow everything down?
Now if the average player is going to take out the mob in 45 seconds, I know with my team we can do it in about half that time, maybe less. We don't need CC, slows, debuffs, etc.. because we kill too fast and those mechanics get in the way of our steam rolling the content.
You see, you have to have combat last long enough for all those extra spells, mechanics, etc... to be worth using, meaningful in applying and you can't do that when your players can use DPS as a solution. DPS was a given in EQ, but it was a component of play, a tool to be used in "addition" to the other tools. It was rarely ever the "solution" itself as it is so often used in games today. To avoid it being used as a solution (because DPS as solution leads to mundane pointless dumbed down play), you increase the length of your encounters to the point where DPS can no longer be used as a crutch. That is, you design encounters around "endurance" and through such design, you create numerous means to apply all those tools the developers built and you as the player spent time developing, searching for, and working to. That is why I was thinking a minimum of 2-3 mins per mob (not counting mob actions which may increase that time such as them healing themselves to full, stunning the party, mezing/charming another player, etc...).
So, lets say you come to a room of 5 mobs. You single them or pull a couple at a time, etc... and spend 2-3 (+/- 1-2 mins depending on mob type, etc...). The respawn time in that particular room is around 18 mins, in an ideal (ie you are kicking ass and taking names group) you clear the room in 10-12 minutes. You are making good time, you can check buffs for dispels, heal up, med some and be ready to wait for pops and easily handle them.. or you could skip the buffing and use that time to pull a few mobs into that room as a temp safe spot while you are working on to another room (ie gotta keep ahead of spawns or you get back spawns and hell breaks loose).
Or... you could be behind in the process (ie your team isn't really skilled, has some issues with a pather add, etc...) and by the time you are on the last mob, the respawns start happening which creates some massive tension as you now have to speed up and deal with what you know is coming (ie the whole room popping back). Maybe you are in that process and in the middle of the fight... someone says "OH CRAP A NAMED POPPED!" and now you are dealing with a named spawn (with more HP, special abilities, maybe it even calls some adds or summons aid) and your entire world is going to crap here.
So, lets recap... you are in the middle of a previous spawn group kill, while re-spawns are starting to pop and a named decided to join the party. Now the fight gets serious. Now you have your CC classes working overtime and your tanks are trying to handle multiples while they lock them down. Your CC class is calling out that they are running out of mana, the healer is going on about having to heal the entire party and the wizard is politely asking... can I evac? Can? Now? Maybe?
That entire line of event goes on for around 25-30 mins before all is settled. This is just one large room break, with lots of problems possible. Naturally, if you are slowly going down halls, bypassing some large rooms, you will move a bit faster (depending on how they design the mobs, patrols, etc...). If they have the numerous content they had like in EQ, there will be MANY names throughout the dungeon, so getting into a given camp in the early parts of the dungeon would be timely, but getting in deep, going through numerous rooms and halls to the darkest depth of the dungeon? That will take much time because the event we just explained is unpredictable and things can go south fast in play.
Now times of such will vary depending on player skill, group design, etc... but the point is, running through the dungeon mowing things over is not an option and none of what I described can happen if mobs are dying super fast. That type of event occurs with endurance based play, where it takes time to lock down and secure and area. That form of play is something that games today do not offer which is why most games today are very simplified in their mechanics (ie just DPS everything).
You're forgetting about class interdependence as a social tool. I think risk is important, but the social aspects are even more important. So, being able to have a class do Call of Hero or evacuate or cast invisibility on a melee trying to navigate to the group is much more important than the risk and frustration of a player trying to get back to their group. It's the social ties and experiences that give a game longevity much more so than certain risk factors could ever achieve.
Not forgetting, it is just that you have been covering that point quite well, I was sticking to the non-social type mechanics.
Sinist said: Snipped as it told me the post was too long with your quote included, lol!
I agree combat should be oriented to utilize all roles presented in the game. CC should be a big part of combat, resource, and party management. As should a proper puller/linker. Bad pull and CC is slow on the trigger or gets resisted because he's lazy and didn't skill up his enfeebling magic then it should be a bad time for the group. But that's not necessarily a pacing issue that's more of a combat mechanic overall type of issue. I think moving through dungeons being a slow and arduous adventure (good thing!) is not completely based on the pacing of combat. Yes, combat pacing surely has an effect on this if you can just pull the whole room and AoE it down all at once, but I don't think anyone in here is really after that sort of "Solo MMO" type of combat that has come to the forefront of the genre lately. Otherwise what are we doing posting about a game like Pantheon which clearly is not going to be oriented that way.
I think there is a balance to be found where combat doesn't make you feel like it's more fun to just run a bot and spend all of your time chatting with party members and neither does it just feel like a button spamfest where there is no risk and therefore really no meaningful reward to combat at all. Combat should always feel like an accomplishment whether it is taking down raid bosses or simply grinding out exp with friends/strangers in an exp party. At the same time watching a character auto attack for 2 minutes while waiting for abilities to come off cool down is not a particularly engaging or fun experience. I understand that the social aspect fills that time well, but don't you think that there is more that can be added while still keeping things relatively balanced?
I think Exp mobs TTK being anywhere from 1 minute to 2 minutes in general is pretty decent as long as you're talking about killing mobs in camps that are well populated and have a decently paced re-spawn timer that allows groups to get in trouble if they are moving too slowly or mismanaging combat and resources as in the example that you give. In games like XI the average TTK for single mobs in exp camps was certainly not greater than that on average and needed to be kept up if you wanted to maximize exp gain through the experience kill chain bonus which was a significant boost in exp gained. These times could obviously grow to much longer duration if your party was overcamping/underleveled or if you were in a level range where the exp mobs just sucked (particularly difficult for one reason or another such as heavy handed kamikaze goblins or some such, lol) for the area they were camping and usually suffered exp wise for doing so, but this didn't necessarily mean it was a bad party as in a group of friends TTK isn't necessarily the most important thing. Combat should be long and engaging not one or the other, imo.
I agree combat should be oriented to utilize all roles presented in the game. CC should be a big part of combat, resource, and party management. As should a proper puller/linker. Bad pull and CC is slow on the trigger or gets resisted because he's lazy and didn't skill up his enfeebling magic then it should be a bad time for the group. But that's not necessarily a pacing issue that's more of a combat mechanic overall type of issue. I think moving through dungeons being a slow and arduous adventure (good thing!) is not completely based on the pacing of combat. Yes, combat pacing surely has an effect on this if you can just pull the whole room and AoE it down all at once, but I don't think anyone in here is really after that sort of "Solo MMO" type of combat that has come to the forefront of the genre lately. Otherwise what are we doing posting about a game like Pantheon which clearly is not going to be oriented that way.
I think there is a balance to be found where combat doesn't make you feel like it's more fun to just run a bot and spend all of your time chatting with party members and neither does it just feel like a button spamfest where there is no risk and therefore really no meaningful reward to combat at all. Combat should always feel like an accomplishment whether it is taking down raid bosses or simply grinding out exp with friends/strangers in an exp party. At the same time watching a character auto attack for 2 minutes while waiting for abilities to come off cool down is not a particularly engaging or fun experience. I understand that the social aspect fills that time well, but don't you think that there is more that can be added while still keeping things relatively balanced?
I think Exp mobs TTK being anywhere from 1 minute to 2 minutes in general is pretty decent as long as you're talking about killing mobs in camps that are well populated and have a decently paced re-spawn timer that allows groups to get in trouble if they are moving too slowly or mismanaging combat and resources as in the example that you give. In games like XI the average TTK for single mobs in exp camps was certainly not greater than that on average and needed to be kept up if you wanted to maximize exp gain through the experience kill chain bonus which was a significant boost in exp gained. These times could obviously grow to much longer duration if your party was overcamping/underleveled or if you were in a level range where the exp mobs just sucked (particularly difficult for one reason or another such as heavy handed kamikaze goblins or some such, lol) for the area they were camping and usually suffered exp wise for doing so, but this didn't necessarily mean it was a bad party as in a group of friends TTK isn't necessarily the most important thing. Combat should be long and engaging not one or the other, imo.
Certainly there needs to be a balance, but personally I want to avoid the spam fest of combat these days. I played on a private server of EQ a while back, it was slow leveling like I remember in EQ and I played with a friend. One thing I noticed is that I was never "impatient" or "bored" with the time it took to kill a mob. The play was certainly much slower than any game today, but it felt comfortable in play.
I remember some people couldn't stand EQ back in release. They complained about the combat being slow, that they were bored staring at auto-attack, but here is the thing... they were looking for a much more active and consistent sort of play (most I knew who had those complaints played more FPS/console games and were used to the action based play and expected such). While I liked the slow, methodical form of play EQ provided, often common in MUDs and the like. Now certainly, I enjoyed the later action aspect of games, it is a different style of play, a more attentive one, but when I think about what I want with Pantheon, I think about EQ, not action based games today.
I do know that if you lower the times too much, you won't have time to use various skills without turning the game into a spam action based style of play, something that many of the supporters for Pantheon do not want. So combat does need to meet a minimum amount of time to be able to apply such forms of in combat solutions as I discussed.
Certainly the endurance portion of play isn't completely reliant on mob health, but it does require mob numbers instead and a consistency to achieve it. That is, the less time it takes to kill a mob, then you have to lower the spawn rates so that mobs are constantly poping to keep that effect of play. The problem evolves from time... that is, the less time you make such happen, the faster you have to implement game play to achieve all the elements I discussed. This again results in producing fast paced action based combat play.
I am sure Brad and team have been playing around with these things, running their own tests and trying to achieve a balance to capture that "feeling" of play I talk about. Time will tell, but I will say this is not something you can simply just place a specific number to as many aspects chain off of each other as I was discussing.
I do like the variable timer approach you mentioned though. That is a clever way of applying dynamic content that adjusts based on situations. I think a lot of this will be toyed with come the actual testing phases with player populations.
Yes, I too, really have no issue with slow combat and don't ever find to the point of being boring unless you're just in a bad group of non talkative people, lol. Hopefully, the games in this vein will weed those sorts out just by their nature and most groups will be nice socially active folks who are playing the game for that aspect of it as much as anything, but there are always exceptions to the norm. Worrying about those situations isn't really the biggest concern though I suppose, lol.
I certainly am not looking for "Action Combat" or spamfests of button mashing either. I think Brad and his team probably have a decent grip on this idea seeing where they are coming from background wise and all and hope they follow through with promises to the community & backers.
You're forgetting about class interdependence as a social tool. I think risk is important, but the social aspects are even more important. So, being able to have a class do Call of Hero or evacuate or cast invisibility on a melee trying to navigate to the group is much more important than the risk and frustration of a player trying to get back to their group. It's the social ties and experiences that give a game longevity much more so than certain risk factors could ever achieve.
I am in agreement with this, and I prefer most all "old school mechanics" - especially your points on slow-paced combat Sinist.
However, if you restricted a "Call of the Hero" type ability to a class (healer) that wouldn't be able to easily navigate a dungeon with invis & invis vs. undead, then the group would still have to clear to the point in the dungeon, it just may help the "straggler" in a group that doesn't have enough time and/or can't log in at the same time as his friends or a pick-up group.
I think it's a fair compromise that someone would have to at least run to the zone to not circumvent the world, but be able to be called to their group to promote social interaction/interdependence/grouping. It also would allow those who have a very restricted play time be able to have some feeling of achievement in the 2 hour play window without trivializing the world.
It obviously would need to be tested in beta so the skill/spell couldn't be used with unintended consequences (like skipping dungeon content), but I think it could be implemented creatively and successfully.
OP you have the saying and premise wrong. The saying is that long encounters don't equate to challenge. But challenging encounters do typically take longer. The point being that just making encounters take longer to slow the pace and progression doesn't mean the content is challenging. On the flip side, challenging content usually takes much longer than shorter encounters.
For example, in a dungeon having high hitpoint monsters with trivial combat mechanics doesn't make them hard. It just takes longer to burn them down. Raise the complexity of their combat mechanics to make the encounter more difficult. It may be that the encounter takes the same time, but they may not have as many hitpoints due to defensive mitigations, stronger attacks, healing, CC, etc.
Yeah, that was not my point. Mob HP wasn't the point I was making (though it is has presented some problems in play with very low HP/skill power ratios). The point was combat time. If your fights last mere seconds, there is little time to implement strategy without turning it into a key spam fest.
I would like to note that I hope Pantheon doesn't have mob "packs" like those of EQ2, where mobs are linked into a grouping.
They have said monk FD and pulling mechanics will be making a return, so having mobs linked in groupings would be in direct contradiction to having pulling mechanics.
I would like to note that I hope Pantheon doesn't have mob "packs" like those of EQ2, where mobs are linked into a grouping.
They have said monk FD and pulling mechanics will be making a return, so having mobs linked in groupings would be in direct contradiction to having pulling mechanics.
Agreed, I want all "forced linking" ala EQ2 do die a horrible death. I would like to see social agro or various proximity agro that would take some SERIOUS splitting skills to break up, but agreed, no fake, forced mechanics such as that (outside of boss events or the like).
At some point Mob HP directly effects challenge if the game mechanics are designed similar to Vanilla EQ - especially without in-combat mana/endurance/(whatever character resource) regen.
Example: Resource management was a big deal in Vanilla EQ, and, if mob hps were extremely low, or player DPS would have been scaled much higher in Vanilla EQ - that never would have been the case. You couldn't simply spam skills/spells/abilities (as a caster) and melee DPS wasn't overpowering. So fights, took longer, which caused a lot of strategy within the combat.
If Pantheon was designed with Spammy combat with no fear of ever running out of resources in combat (like many MMOs today), then increased HPs would do nothing to "add' to the challenge other than being more tedious, but, hopefully, that won't be the case, and where I'm in agreement with Sinist's "slower" combat.
That, at least, is how I'm reading into Sinist's points.
I want to add to the linked mob issues. I have no problems with them putting in mechanics try and make splitting very difficult. They could put in numerous mechanics such as sight agrro (seeing their partner run off), sound agro (hearing attacks going on in a near room), to even light change that causes investigation. There could be a whole slew of mechanics to trip up trying to single a mob.
With that, there can also be many tools added to classes to assist in dealing with those mechanics.
So I have no issues with them making splitting hard or even turning it into a game between the devs and the pullers to see who can outwit the other, but no stupid mechanics where there is no game, no means of play, just a "play our way" gimmick mechanic.
At some point Mob HP directly effects challenge if the game mechanics are designed similar to Vanilla EQ - especially without in-combat mana/endurance/(whatever character resource) regen.
Example: Resource management was a big deal in Vanilla EQ, and, if mob hps were extremely low, or player DPS would have been scaled much higher in Vanilla EQ - that never would have been the case. You couldn't simply spam skills/spells/abilities (as a caster) and melee DPS wasn't overpowering. So fights, took longer, which caused a lot of strategy within the combat.
If Pantheon was designed with Spammy combat with no fear of ever running out of resources in combat (like many MMOs today), then increased HPs would do nothing to "add' to the challenge other than being more tedious, but, hopefully, that won't be the case, and where I'm in agreement with Sinist's "slower" combat.
That, at least, is how I'm reading into Sinist's points.
At some point Mob HP directly effects challenge if the game mechanics are designed similar to Vanilla EQ - especially without in-combat mana/endurance/(whatever character resource) regen.
Example: Resource management was a big deal in Vanilla EQ, and, if mob hps were extremely low, or player DPS would have been scaled much higher in Vanilla EQ - that never would have been the case. You couldn't simply spam skills/spells/abilities (as a caster) and melee DPS wasn't overpowering. So fights, took longer, which caused a lot of strategy within the combat.
If Pantheon was designed with Spammy combat with no fear of ever running out of resources in combat (like many MMOs today), then increased HPs would do nothing to "add' to the challenge other than being more tedious, but, hopefully, that won't be the case, and where I'm in agreement with Sinist's "slower" combat.
That, at least, is how I'm reading into Sinist's points.
Definitely. This is good to point out. In the current model of combat mechanic/class mechanics this sort of thing doesn't really matter as you point out as resource management is a non-issue and not something that the average MMO player even. But in the older model where resource management and down time between battle for recovery purposes was as integral as people knowing their roles the target exp mobs and their traits (hp, abilities, etc) are a major factor into where and what you exp off of. Like I had noted in a previous post there used to be many camps that were preferable to other camps in games like EQ and FFXI as some mobs just sucked to try to exp off of due to crazy high defense, ridiculous hp pools that slowed kills, crazy suicide abilities that could take out half your party (anyone else remember Goblins that would suicide at 75% health in Buburimu Penninsula? Ya, those were hilariously frustrating at times) and require additional recovery time and such. These are all cool features that added layers into planning an exp party and finding a camp that would give good reward for time invested. I hope to see this sort of thing return in a game such as Pantheon.
I would like to see the average mob take 45 sec - 1m for a group of the intended level to kill. Long enough for things like debuffs, dots and CC to matter.
If you're trying to solo it would, of course, take much longer.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
I would like to see the average mob take 45 sec - 1m for a group of the intended level to kill. Long enough for things like debuffs, dots and CC to matter.
If you're trying to solo it would, of course, take much longer.
Hmm.. not sure to be honest. I am thinking around 2 mins average group, 1-3 range accross the board. This really is a matter of tweaking it at beta. Thing is, I really want people to shed their mainstream bad tendencies when they begin evaluating this in beta. We have had years of "fast kills" to make us biased. I would like them to err on the side of caution and start much slower in kills and slowly adjust as need. You make them too fast to start, people won't really notice and it could be the start of some long term issues.
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Now if the average player is going to take out the mob in 45 seconds, I know with my team we can do it in about half that time, maybe less. We don't need CC, slows, debuffs, etc.. because we kill too fast and those mechanics get in the way of our steam rolling the content.
You see, you have to have combat last long enough for all those extra spells, mechanics, etc... to be worth using, meaningful in applying and you can't do that when your players can use DPS as a solution. DPS was a given in EQ, but it was a component of play, a tool to be used in "addition" to the other tools. It was rarely ever the "solution" itself as it is so often used in games today. To avoid it being used as a solution (because DPS as solution leads to mundane pointless dumbed down play), you increase the length of your encounters to the point where DPS can no longer be used as a crutch. That is, you design encounters around "endurance" and through such design, you create numerous means to apply all those tools the developers built and you as the player spent time developing, searching for, and working to. That is why I was thinking a minimum of 2-3 mins per mob (not counting mob actions which may increase that time such as them healing themselves to full, stunning the party, mezing/charming another player, etc...).
So, lets say you come to a room of 5 mobs. You single them or pull a couple at a time, etc... and spend 2-3 (+/- 1-2 mins depending on mob type, etc...). The respawn time in that particular room is around 18 mins, in an ideal (ie you are kicking ass and taking names group) you clear the room in 10-12 minutes. You are making good time, you can check buffs for dispels, heal up, med some and be ready to wait for pops and easily handle them.. or you could skip the buffing and use that time to pull a few mobs into that room as a temp safe spot while you are working on to another room (ie gotta keep ahead of spawns or you get back spawns and hell breaks loose).
Or... you could be behind in the process (ie your team isn't really skilled, has some issues with a pather add, etc...) and by the time you are on the last mob, the respawns start happening which creates some massive tension as you now have to speed up and deal with what you know is coming (ie the whole room popping back). Maybe you are in that process and in the middle of the fight... someone says "OH CRAP A NAMED POPPED!" and now you are dealing with a named spawn (with more HP, special abilities, maybe it even calls some adds or summons aid) and your entire world is going to crap here.
So, lets recap... you are in the middle of a previous spawn group kill, while re-spawns are starting to pop and a named decided to join the party. Now the fight gets serious. Now you have your CC classes working overtime and your tanks are trying to handle multiples while they lock them down. Your CC class is calling out that they are running out of mana, the healer is going on about having to heal the entire party and the wizard is politely asking... can I evac? Can? Now? Maybe?
That entire line of event goes on for around 25-30 mins before all is settled. This is just one large room break, with lots of problems possible. Naturally, if you are slowly going down halls, bypassing some large rooms, you will move a bit faster (depending on how they design the mobs, patrols, etc...). If they have the numerous content they had like in EQ, there will be MANY names throughout the dungeon, so getting into a given camp in the early parts of the dungeon would be timely, but getting in deep, going through numerous rooms and halls to the darkest depth of the dungeon? That will take much time because the event we just explained is unpredictable and things can go south fast in play.
Now times of such will vary depending on player skill, group design, etc... but the point is, running through the dungeon mowing things over is not an option and none of what I described can happen if mobs are dying super fast. That type of event occurs with endurance based play, where it takes time to lock down and secure and area. That form of play is something that games today do not offer which is why most games today are very simplified in their mechanics (ie just DPS everything).
I think there is a balance to be found where combat doesn't make you feel like it's more fun to just run a bot and spend all of your time chatting with party members and neither does it just feel like a button spamfest where there is no risk and therefore really no meaningful reward to combat at all. Combat should always feel like an accomplishment whether it is taking down raid bosses or simply grinding out exp with friends/strangers in an exp party. At the same time watching a character auto attack for 2 minutes while waiting for abilities to come off cool down is not a particularly engaging or fun experience. I understand that the social aspect fills that time well, but don't you think that there is more that can be added while still keeping things relatively balanced?
I think Exp mobs TTK being anywhere from 1 minute to 2 minutes in general is pretty decent as long as you're talking about killing mobs in camps that are well populated and have a decently paced re-spawn timer that allows groups to get in trouble if they are moving too slowly or mismanaging combat and resources as in the example that you give. In games like XI the average TTK for single mobs in exp camps was certainly not greater than that on average and needed to be kept up if you wanted to maximize exp gain through the experience kill chain bonus which was a significant boost in exp gained. These times could obviously grow to much longer duration if your party was overcamping/underleveled or if you were in a level range where the exp mobs just sucked (particularly difficult for one reason or another such as heavy handed kamikaze goblins or some such, lol) for the area they were camping and usually suffered exp wise for doing so, but this didn't necessarily mean it was a bad party as in a group of friends TTK isn't necessarily the most important thing. Combat should be long and engaging not one or the other, imo.
I remember some people couldn't stand EQ back in release. They complained about the combat being slow, that they were bored staring at auto-attack, but here is the thing... they were looking for a much more active and consistent sort of play (most I knew who had those complaints played more FPS/console games and were used to the action based play and expected such). While I liked the slow, methodical form of play EQ provided, often common in MUDs and the like. Now certainly, I enjoyed the later action aspect of games, it is a different style of play, a more attentive one, but when I think about what I want with Pantheon, I think about EQ, not action based games today.
I do know that if you lower the times too much, you won't have time to use various skills without turning the game into a spam action based style of play, something that many of the supporters for Pantheon do not want. So combat does need to meet a minimum amount of time to be able to apply such forms of in combat solutions as I discussed.
Certainly the endurance portion of play isn't completely reliant on mob health, but it does require mob numbers instead and a consistency to achieve it. That is, the less time it takes to kill a mob, then you have to lower the spawn rates so that mobs are constantly poping to keep that effect of play. The problem evolves from time... that is, the less time you make such happen, the faster you have to implement game play to achieve all the elements I discussed. This again results in producing fast paced action based combat play.
I am sure Brad and team have been playing around with these things, running their own tests and trying to achieve a balance to capture that "feeling" of play I talk about. Time will tell, but I will say this is not something you can simply just place a specific number to as many aspects chain off of each other as I was discussing.
I do like the variable timer approach you mentioned though. That is a clever way of applying dynamic content that adjusts based on situations. I think a lot of this will be toyed with come the actual testing phases with player populations.
I certainly am not looking for "Action Combat" or spamfests of button mashing either. I think Brad and his team probably have a decent grip on this idea seeing where they are coming from background wise and all and hope they follow through with promises to the community & backers.
However, if you restricted a "Call of the Hero" type ability to a class (healer) that wouldn't be able to easily navigate a dungeon with invis & invis vs. undead, then the group would still have to clear to the point in the dungeon, it just may help the "straggler" in a group that doesn't have enough time and/or can't log in at the same time as his friends or a pick-up group.
I think it's a fair compromise that someone would have to at least run to the zone to not circumvent the world, but be able to be called to their group to promote social interaction/interdependence/grouping. It also would allow those who have a very restricted play time be able to have some feeling of achievement in the 2 hour play window without trivializing the world.
It obviously would need to be tested in beta so the skill/spell couldn't be used with unintended consequences (like skipping dungeon content), but I think it could be implemented creatively and successfully.
They have said monk FD and pulling mechanics will be making a return, so having mobs linked in groupings would be in direct contradiction to having pulling mechanics.
At some point Mob HP directly effects challenge if the game mechanics are designed similar to Vanilla EQ - especially without in-combat mana/endurance/(whatever character resource) regen.
Example: Resource management was a big deal in Vanilla EQ, and, if mob hps were extremely low, or player DPS would have been scaled much higher in Vanilla EQ - that never would have been the case. You couldn't simply spam skills/spells/abilities (as a caster) and melee DPS wasn't overpowering. So fights, took longer, which caused a lot of strategy within the combat.
If Pantheon was designed with Spammy combat with no fear of ever running out of resources in combat (like many MMOs today), then increased HPs would do nothing to "add' to the challenge other than being more tedious, but, hopefully, that won't be the case, and where I'm in agreement with Sinist's "slower" combat.
That, at least, is how I'm reading into Sinist's points.
With that, there can also be many tools added to classes to assist in dealing with those mechanics.
So I have no issues with them making splitting hard or even turning it into a game between the devs and the pullers to see who can outwit the other, but no stupid mechanics where there is no game, no means of play, just a "play our way" gimmick mechanic.
I would like to see the average mob take 45 sec - 1m for a group of the intended level to kill. Long enough for things like debuffs, dots and CC to matter.
If you're trying to solo it would, of course, take much longer.
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