MMORPG vs Moba - Good community or good game?

Andel_Skaar · January 2016

Which one do you think will strive more in the future, which one do you think has better gameplay, and which one is more relaxing/fun to play?

MMORPG's, especially the ones with the open world, offer much more freedom to the player and its actions than in moba, and many of those are solely dependant on the player itself, and not to the other players in surroundings.

Moba games on other hand offer all objectives as team objectives, and are heavily dependant as such on others.Victories and mistakes are shared alike and it demands great deal of trust and cooperation from teammates.

There are many positive and negative things about each of these, with emphasis on player preference, their gameplay, and time invested.
Feel free to comment on why do you love or not these genres!

Scorchien · January 2016

for the most part .. they attract 2 different types of player ....

Have tried a few mobas and they dont grab me ... just not enough World for me i think .. very limited in scope

Andel_Skaar · January 2016

My personal experience in between these two genres was that there is a serious lack of balance in casual play.
Take for example random matches in any moba game, they tend to range from 100-0 to 0-100 scores, becouse the matchmaking system is very much random and does not take into account player skill to even nearly equalise the teams.
And than, there are toxic players.
There was a discussion somewhere that perfectly explains current moba community condition, this is the quote:

"Papież z nazwiskiem 14/88ist21/37 5 months ago

wtf is this shit... Agine same games, from 2009 to 2014. Look for something special, not only this damn shit like league of legends or fucking dota... Are u sick? Like 100000000 fucking nerd faggots they're playing this fucking shit? Go kill u self.
· 2

Skylent Shore 5 months ago

+Papież z nazwiskiem 14/88ist21/37 Pretty toxic mate^ If you actually played these games you would know why it is the most popular genre instead of your childish speculation.
· 1

Pandaxtor 5 months ago
+Papież z nazwiskiem 14/88ist21/37 Sounds like you belong in LoL. Dota 2 if you know Russian."

So even though you might find this funny, when playing in a team that doesnt know your language, that doesnt know controls, or that purposelly choses to lose, things tend to get a little out of hand.

People love to write "Good Game" "Easy" on the end of the match, well, at least mostly winners do, especially when there were issues like poor balance of teams, afk players, or "feeding".
I did say in casual play, most of the times you make the time to "Premade" your team, you Will win.

Of course ,people still play matches in moba ,though the majority of young players that play them are not very pleasant to be around.
So thats that ,cant have moba with no players, call it bittersweet.

On other hand, MMORPG's have a different matter of balance issues ,and those are the ones of material value and "pay to progress faster" type.

jakeyshadow · January 2016

Just a random thought, but is anyone else surprised that there are no MMORPG/MOBA mash-up games? like one that would somehow combine the two together. Maybe have an avatar that can explore the world, complete quests, earn items that may somehow benefit you in matches , etc, while also being able to choose between multiple characters when it comes to fighting other players(like league, or smite). Or say, a game where each champ must be progressed in the MMORPG aspect open world part of the game in order to unlock skills and progress further. Obviously, i do see the drawback in creating a game like this, such as uniqueness of items ( or lack thereof ) how to make an item unique to certain achievements, while not giving them too OP aspects in the MOBA aspect of the game. just curious to know peoples thoughts. Since i wasn't sure how to make a threat i kind of felt this thread would be appropriate to ask the question. Sorry if I'm intruding haha.

Andel_Skaar · January 2016

jakeyshadow said:

Just a random thought, but is anyone else surprised that there are no MMORPG/MOBA mash-up games? like one that would somehow combine the two together. Maybe have an avatar that can explore the world, complete quests, earn items that may somehow benefit you in matches , etc, while also being able to choose between multiple characters when it comes to fighting other players(like league, or smite). Or say, a game where each champ must be progressed in the MMORPG aspect open world part of the game in order to unlock skills and progress further. Obviously, i do see the drawback in creating a game like this, such as uniqueness of items ( or lack thereof ) how to make an item unique to certain achievements, while not giving them too OP aspects in the MOBA aspect of the game. just curious to know peoples thoughts. Since i wasn't sure how to make a threat i kind of felt this thread would be appropriate to ask the question. Sorry if I'm intruding haha.

Id say i've seen some arenas in mmorpg's that are fairly similar to Moba's, take GW2 as one example.

Its not non-existant, just non-refined.
Interesting idea tho.

filmoret · January 2016

There is a created problem when you must rely on team to complete a goal. Which is why moba's have horrible communities and any mmorpg with hard dungeons have the same problems. You must be in the meta build or they simply kick you out of the group and look for someone who is in the meta. These require you to make friends and join guilds but even at those levels the players will isolate themselves from the noobs to prevent much wasted effort. I know there's a lot of people like in LOL who are simply ignorant and believe meta is the Bible. I know the benefits and drawbacks but the community effect is what we are talking about here. It creates monsters out of people who would normally be fun to be around. Lets face it when content is too hard then you can't afford to waste all day trying to teach new people how to run the dungeon. You are better off finding other elites so you can accomplish the goal.

Alders · January 2016

MOBA's are a cancer spreading to the minds of MMORPG'd devs chasing that mighty dollar.

iixviiiix · January 2016

A game community formed by a game . Good game make good community .
And i say , why don't you mix them ? After all MOBA is instance PVP.

BigRambo · January 2016

MOBA, MMORPG, MMORTS, call it what ever you want, at the end of the day people take games way to seriously. Like a failure = real life death. Get over yourselves. This is the main reason why MMO's should have kept being P2P and that's why everyone who played in the 90's are really missing those days. F2P, where any nimrod can join and ruin everyone's gaming experience is just wrong on so many levels. That's also the reason why most MMORPGs that releases today loses over 80% their initial population after 3 months. A quick example of a F2P that isn't quite a MMO, Path of Exile, game looks great and all but the community is filled with 6 years old kids insulting each other, and Devs don't give a darn about it. You think millions are playing PoE? Hell no, barely 20K are on at peek hours, you got 30K+ at peek hours on EVE-Online that's P2P.

Yes I used to bash a lot on EVE and FF14, but I did play both of them P2P every step of the way, and I did enjoy them while the fun lasted for me. 8 years on EVE, roughly a year on FF14 and I applaud both CCP and SE to stick with their niche and not giving out to the outside world, if you want to play a quality game, you P2P. Not one single F2P title has kept me interested for more than a month, NONE, and I played way over a hundred of them. Once you experience the QUALITY between P2P and F2P, you won't view F2P ever the same again. I got WoW as a witness to back my claim, with over 200 MMO's released since WoW released in 2004, WoW is still P2P, still over 5mil Subs and the 200 MMO's released after it, 90% of them combined don't even come close to WoW's numbers. So I don't know, goes to show the power of P2P. If you look at the Steam numbers, Dota 2 (#1) is over 900K players daily and Counter Strike : Global Offensive (#2) over 600K players daily, of course both of them at peek hours. The 3rd game, FallOut 4, doesn't even come close with barely 80K, but back 2 months ago it was hovering the 450K. You still got more people playing Age of Empires 2 on a daily basis than most current MMO's!

People need to lay off solo player console games, laying off in the sense of stop giving it so much praise, the honey moon lasts 2-3 months and BOOM 80% of the players moves on to something else. The problem with F2P MMO's is that they are trending exactly like solo player console games, thanks in major part of the P2W cash shop, once people reach end game, they quit and move on.

MMO's need to stop being easily accessible to everyone with a computer / tablet / smartphone. F2P is cute and all, but I'd much rather have 200 P2P players at 10$ a month than having to tolerate 20,000 cry babies playing a F2P title that barely put a dime on it. We call this common sense and business 101. It always makes me laugh my butt off when I see a new title releasing, F2P of course, with the amazing huge open world and 50 servers, but merges down to 10 servers after 6 months because no one is left to play it. And yet, people still find a way to be stupidly naive enough to fall for the next MMO hype that anyone with a little common sense can see the title will simply not work and fail after a few months. It's a endless circle. I really miss the day where only a dozen MMO existed and each were UNIQUE in their own way. But today, there is no way to be UNIQUE with over 300 titles. So people are left heading back to WoW and EVE-Online, EVE has been slowly rising in pop in the past 2-3 months, which is great.

So to finish, my hat's off to every Dev and Pub out there that are still running the P2P model and keeping kids out the MMO world. After all this raging, I might actually head back to EVE, haven't logged since 2013.

nariusseldon · January 2016

MOBA is clearly on the rise now, and mmorpg is becoming more and more marginalized in the market.

I think the biggest advantage of MOBAs is that they don't depend on the community. In fact, LoL is famous for its toxic community, and yet it is so successful.

So MOBA is better for those who don't care about community, and like instanced pvp, which again, by the success of LoL, there are a lot of those players.

Personally i don't play MOBAs, but I can't deny their great successes.

AAAMEOW · January 2016

There is only a few MOBA people actually play though.

The player base for mmorpg are more spread out.

Loke666 · January 2016

AAAMEOW said:

There is only a few MOBA people actually play though.

The player base for mmorpg are more spread out.

Really? I think if we look on the western MMO world well see that the majority of the players play the 5 large ones (Wow, GW2, ESO, FF XIV and TOR) as well. There are more small games around in MMOs but in both cases a few games have the majority of the players (yeah, Im too lazy to give you actual numbers but Wow had 5.8 millions active players last report and GW2 3.1, that is close to 9 mils for 2 games. Add in the other three and the number should be something like 12 mil western active players at least.

As I see it, MMOs do PvE better but they have failed in PvP and that is what the Mobas used to become large. Few MMOs can provide that interesting PvP (meaning that it could go anywhere, the best players and teams wins), Guildwars comes to mind but it is more or less dead by now.

I think that MMO PvP actually could take most of those players if a MMO had good enough PvP but almost all of them focused on PvE where the powergap between high and low levels actually are fun instead of boring as in PvP.

I certainly think that large scale PvP could bring over many players if you do it right, but I get the feeling that the devs have given up on it or just continue the same way as the older games did. And while some of them had acceptable PvP it is not good enough to get millions of players.

It might just be that a game that mixes the best part of both types of games could be a huge hit. But any PvP focused game needs too make any fight interesting and when you mostly fight people with far more or less power than you have that wont happen.

Many people like PvP but MMOs have become pretty lousy on providing good PvP and then mobas came around and become huge.

Frammshamm · January 2016

sorry? i stopped reading at " which one will strive in the future"

this makes no sense. Strive requires the word "to" after it when used in the infinitive.. it means to try hard to do something. Again.. the better question is why you dont strive to do better in school?

Wizardry · January 2016

There is ONLY two reasons why people play mobas,they are for some reason,i guess just like mmorpg players chasing levels,fascinated with RANK.The other reason is esport as they see $$$ but in reality only the streamers and a select handful make money at it.
Nobody is playing mmorpg's to make money not as an esport nor as a streamer.So in that sense they are more a gamer than playing for some monetary reason or some RANK number.Take away rank,take away the money Moba's would have a VERY small player base.

Thane · January 2016

why compare mobas to mmos?

mobas have no massive at all. it's a complete lobby based gameplay.
most mmos working on that base WILL be flamed as not being mmos.

and, their gameplay is totally different, no raids in mobas, no permanent loot grind, no open worlds...
on the other hand mobas are only focused on (usualy) 5v5 matches, and end after each round, which is about the worst feature in the newer mmos (x-server, not knowing your enemy).

and, communities can suck in both games, you just need enough people, and you WILL have enough ass.. unpolite people too. it's a a math thing, mankind ain't nice, we only behave if the grps are small enough so other people could notice us. as soon we get a mass big enough to support a certain level of anonymity, the politeness usually ends, and everyone thinks he is the best

Axehilt · January 2016

A13xand37 said:

Which one do you think will strive more in the future, which one do you think has better gameplay, and which one is more relaxing/fun to play?

MMORPG's, especially the ones with the open world, offer much more freedom to the player and its actions than in moba, and many of those are solely dependant on the player itself, and not to the other players in surroundings.

Moba games on other hand offer all objectives as team objectives, and are heavily dependant as such on others.Victories and mistakes are shared alike and it demands great deal of trust and cooperation from teammates.

There are many positive and negative things about each of these, with emphasis on player preference, their gameplay, and time invested.
Feel free to comment on why do you love or not these genres!

Seems obvious MMORPGs are more relaxing. They often provide a set of low-intensity activities you can choose to do when you're inthe mood for something chill. Ideally they also provide higher intensity activities which are more challenging. (And ideally you have the freedom to freely choose between the two.)

Gameplay quality isn't better or worse. Just different. The deepest MOBA* offers really interesting gameplay and the deepest MMORPG does too. Granted, I think that MMORPG depth quickly drops off when you start to talk about games which aren't WOW, because companies don't seem to be pushing for WOW-like depth, whereas with MOBAs because they're PVP games even the average clones manage to provide at least a reasonably deep experience.

(*Actually I'm mostly talking about LoL I guess. I think DOTA2 is probably slightly deeper, but I find the gameplay slightly less interesting mainly because of the stupidity of deliberate teamkilling being part of the experience...and the fact that DOTA2 was mainly just a clone whereas LoL tried quite a lot of new stuff.)

As for community, most players tend to agree that MOBA communities are the worst. The reason why is kill XP/gold. In a typical PVP game a bad teammate will simply contribute less than a good one. In a MOB, a bad teammate will both fail to contribute and contribute to the enemy team (by dying to them, thus feeding them XP/gold, thus making them stronger.)

Loke666 · January 2016

Axehilt said:
Seems obvious MMORPGs are more relaxing. They often provide a set of low-intensity activities you can choose to do when you're inthe mood for something chill. Ideally they also provide higher intensity activities which are more challenging. (And ideally you have the freedom to freely choose between the two.)

Gameplay quality isn't better or worse. Just different. The deepest MOBA* offers really interesting gameplay and the deepest MMORPG does too. Granted, I think that MMORPG depth quickly drops off when you start to talk about games which aren't WOW, because companies don't seem to be pushing for WOW-like depth, whereas with MOBAs because they're PVP games even the average clones manage to provide at least a reasonably deep experience.

(*Actually I'm mostly talking about LoL I guess. I think DOTA2 is probably slightly deeper, but I find the gameplay slightly less interesting mainly because of the stupidity of deliberate teamkilling being part of the experience...and the fact that DOTA2 was mainly just a clone whereas LoL tried quite a lot of new stuff.)

As for community, most players tend to agree that MOBA communities are the worst. The reason why is kill XP/gold. In a typical PVP game a bad teammate will simply contribute less than a good one. In a MOB, a bad teammate will both fail to contribute and contribute to the enemy team (by dying to them, thus feeding them XP/gold, thus making them stronger.)

It certainly are generally more relaxing to PvE then PvP, yes.

And the MOBA communities are probably worse since they are all about you and a really small team. In theory are the MMOs about your entire faction or server and people working together for a greater goal but the more they focus on soloing and you instead of your guild, faction, server or group the more toxic do the MMO communities get as well.

If you want a good community you need to encourage people to work together for common goals, something for example DaoC did really well. Ineraction with other players leads to people actually getting to learn to know eachothers and that really helps a lot. Cross server dungeon finders tend to get out the worst in people as well, they know they probably never see you again so they might as well ninja an item or disconnect halfway through the dungeon because they already looted what they needed.

Another thing not good for the MMO community is the need or greed system, a formula that handles that automatically based on class and current gear (together with some randomness of course) would stop a lot of arguments in most MMOs.

But, yeah.... the gameplay isn't really better or worse, just focused on the type of gameplay the games offer. The rest is a matter of personal taste.

Kyleran · January 2016

Alders said:

MOBA's are a cancer spreading to the minds of MMORPG'd devs chasing that mighty dollar.

Not really, they've drawn away the tourists, the MMORPG genre will be better for it in the long run.

We are East!

cheyane · January 2016

Good community every single day and twice on Sundays.

I have played League of Legends and can attest to the toxic community pretty soon you just turn off. Might as well play a single player game with the amount of interaction I had. I admit I was a poor player my reflexes suck and point click is hard for me to do fast and accurately. I also can sympathize with the people relying on you for their victories in MOBAs and their understandable frustration at the poorer players and subsequent colourful language. Probably justifiable in their eyes .

Recently I have gone back to playing Witcher 3 trying to finish gave up before because Witcher senses gave me a monster headache if I used it too much. I am playing it in shorter bursts and tempering the use of the witcher senses.

I am checking out Pillars of Eternity and Divinity Original Sin. I have given up for a bit my MMORPG and it is not because of the community since the last MMORPG I have been playing which is Everquest 2 and it had a great one. I am just taking a break and trying to catch up on some good stories. I also realised I am losing my edge sort of I cannot play in groups very well any more as my reflexes are getting even worse. Could be age but I am comfortable I think having no one relying on me for their success so recently I have been playing Marvel Heroes ,Diablo 3 and Path of Exile.

I think after a break I shall go back to games that do not rely on reflexes. ESO is out and so is Wildstar even though I did like the latter a lot but I simply sucked in combat. It is very humiliating to do so poorly. I want to be better and in spite of my great Logitech G600 mouse I still cannot do action fast. I manage in Witcher 3 because of my mouse and also in Marvel Heroes because I mapped all the skills to my mouse. I think with some conscience I should stop afflicting myself on others in group play . I might come back once I get over this pity party I am busy throwing myself.

Vermillion_Raventhal · January 2016

What is the connection between MOBA and MMORPG? Fantasy skin? Seems like it's asking what effect Call of Duty or any other match based game will have an effect.

filmoret · January 2016

LOL's problem is they created a meta and you can't just log in and play whatever champion you want without getting negative responses from other players. I'm not speaking about ranked games just normal ones. They also failed to see the problems that spam reporters cause. They have players who have literally reported over 1k people and instead of putting them on trial they put those who are being reported on trial for their behavior. They did good by allowing community to decide if reports are worthy of punishment. Basically you log into their forums then you can goto the panel and vote on reported players according to their behavior. So unless they do something about the aholes who are constantly reporting people for everything they will never have a good community.

Andel_Skaar · January 2016

iixviiiix said:

A game community formed by a game . Good game make good community .

That is open to interpretation, as example, i would say most Moba games have incredibly good lore ,overall balance in them, and the sheer love for playing certain champions/gods/heroes,
but still they, MOBA's are one of the most Toxic communities that is currently existing in online gaming world.

Maybe it is a mistake of matchmaking system balance, low tutorials, or simply lack of player skill and teamwork to make them enjoyable. Depends.

Andel_Skaar · January 2016

cheyane said:

Good community every single day and twice on Sundays.

I have played League of Legends and can attest to the toxic community pretty soon you just turn off. Might as well play a single player game with the amount of interaction I had. I admit I was a poor player my reflexes suck and point click is hard for me to do fast and accurately. I also can sympathize with the people relying on you for their victories in MOBAs and their understandable frustration at the poorer players and subsequent colourful language. Probably justifiable in their eyes .

Recently I have gone back to playing Witcher 3 trying to finish gave up before because Witcher senses gave me a monster headache if I used it too much. I am playing it in shorter bursts and tempering the use of the witcher senses.

I am checking out Pillars of Eternity and Divinity Original Sin. I have given up for a bit my MMORPG and it is not because of the community since the last MMORPG I have been playing which is Everquest 2 and it had a great one. I am just taking a break and trying to catch up on some good stories. I also realised I am losing my edge sort of I cannot play in groups very well any more as my reflexes are getting even worse. Could be age but I am comfortable I think having no one relying on me for their success so recently I have been playing Marvel Heroes ,Diablo 3 and Path of Exile.

I think after a break I shall go back to games that do not rely on reflexes. ESO is out and so is Wildstar even though I did like the latter a lot but I simply sucked in combat. It is very humiliating to do so poorly. I want to be better and in spite of my great Logitech G600 mouse I still cannot do action fast. I manage in Witcher 3 because of my mouse and also in Marvel Heroes because I mapped all the skills to my mouse. I think with some conscience I should stop afflicting myself on others in group play . I might come back once I get over this pity party I am busy throwing myself.

You are a beautifull person, you are one of us, gamer, and your skill, reflexes, shouldnt be as important as to the efforts of your team to guide you and complement how you play, and most of all,

i think the greatest mistake ever created related to MOBA genre was that which didnt predict to matchmerge players of similar skill based on (damage output/recieved, score, match history, and so many other things that are stored in i think every moba database) and use that valuable information to match merge gamers into

proper, balanced, good games.

Andel_Skaar · January 2016

Kyleran said:

Alders said:

MOBA's are a cancer spreading to the minds of MMORPG'd devs chasing that mighty dollar.

Not really, they've drawn away the tourists, the MMORPG genre will be better for it in the long run.

We are East!

"We are East!" xD what did that mean please?

There are 2 things i stated that pleague MOBA and MMORPG genre,

For MOBA:
it is lack of matchmaking/community balance ,teamwork since it has gear balance,
but fails to deliver most of those matches where we dont know which team will win, and where both teams write "Good Game on the end of the match.

For MMORPG
is lack of gameplay gear, balance ,pleague of "pay to progress faster" and pure p2w models, but has one of the best communities around, and incredible possibilities.
Excluding GW2(attept on fixing that) and Path of Exile(even tho an online arpg)

So, Yeah xD

Andel_Skaar · January 2016

Loke666 said:

Axehilt said:
As for community, most players tend to agree that MOBA communities are the worst. The reason why is kill XP/gold. In a typical PVP game a bad teammate will simply contribute less than a good one. In a MOB, a bad teammate will both fail to contribute and contribute to the enemy team (by dying to them, thus feeding them XP/gold, thus making them stronger.)

"Personally i think MOBA genre would bloom if matchmaking was to be given proper mechanic related to player skill leading to much,much more balanced teams, with rigorous penalties for afking."
A13xand37

It certainly are generally more relaxing to PvE then PvP, yes.

And the MOBA communities are probably worse since they are all about you and a really small team. In theory are the MMOs about your entire faction or server and people working together for a greater goal but the more they focus on soloing and you instead of your guild, faction, server or group the more toxic do the MMO communities get as well.

"MOBA's are more intimate, yes. You will know right away if someone is lacking skill."
A13xand37

If you want a good community you need to encourage people to work together for common goals, something for example DaoC did really well. Ineraction with other players leads to people actually getting to learn to know eachothers and that really helps a lot. Cross server dungeon finders tend to get out the worst in people as well, they know they probably never see you again so they might as well ninja an item or disconnect halfway through the dungeon because they already looted what they needed.

Another thing not good for the MMO community is the need or greed system, a formula that handles that automatically based on class and current gear (together with some randomness of course) would stop a lot of arguments in most MMOs.

But, yeah.... the gameplay isn't really better or worse, just focused on the type of gameplay the games offer. The rest is a matter of personal taste.

Posted 2 responses above, also i completely agree with you related to the gear looting system, and cant imagine how that basic knowledge was so hard for developers to implement and make it as it should be.

nariusseldon · January 2016

Loke666 said:

And the MOBA communities are probably worse since they are all about you and a really small team. In theory are the MMOs about your entire faction or server and people working together for a greater goal but the more they focus on soloing and you instead of your guild, faction, server or group the more toxic do the MMO communities get as well.

If you want a good community you need to encourage people to work together for common goals, something for example DaoC did really well.

But not everyone wants a good community. A lot of players just treat others as NPCs. If so, the toxicity of the MOBA community is not a problem at all.

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MMORPG vs Moba - Good community or good game?

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