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Would you play a game with perma-death?
Gouki4u
Member Posts: 215
Imagine the game is perfect in every way, and your ultimate ideal of what an MMO should be, but the one catch (if you find this undesirable at any rate) is when you die that character is gone forever. No ifs, ands, or buts. Would you play this game?
I'm not looking for arguments for, or against it. I just want to know who would play it, and would not.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Comments
ok, char dies. But, what about the stuff? Can u give it to a new character like a legacy from father to son?
If all your stuff is gone, simply i don't want to play it. Losing all your stuff cause a freeze or lag it's not fun.
If the legacy option is available, maybe i'll play it if grinding is not a madness.
Given that my ultimate ideal of what an MMO should be is "death only happens if you genuinely screw up, but when it happens it's permanent," I think you can guess my answer
The only ifs, ands or buts I would give to a permadeath are basically hack jobs to try and emulate the first part. Getting killed should not be as common as it is currently, but when it happens it should be for good.
Okay good question. I hadn't really taken that into account.
Let's go with the old school "DM takes away your character sheet" model. You're dead, and all of your stuff is still on your body. If you're with a group party members can help themselves, and pass it along to your new character later, but they don't have to. If you're alone anybody can just come by, and claim the loot.
The new character you create does not necessarily have anything to do with the last one you had. You could RP a connection, and if you have good friends they can pass on your belongings as if you're inheriting them, but it is not enforced by any game mechanics.
This would give a serious advantage to people who group with those they trust, and tie guilds more closely together, or so I hope. It also would making going it alone a huge risk. You could die, and lose everything.
Another thing that needs to be taken into account I didn't think about at first is any items you have in storage. Now obviously if you have your things in storage at a guild house they could be passed on to your new character if your guildmates aren't jerks. But what about items stored in a public bank only you can access? What about your house? Well what happens in the real world when someone dies with no hiers? Up for auction it goes.
If you could simply access your bank account, or house with your new character even permadeath would only mean you lose skills, or levels. People would simply stockpile tems as insurance. It kind of defeats the purpose of permanent death ie you're actually taking a risk when you go adventuring.
Now even D&D has ways to resurrect players, but in this case let's say you buddies have to be kind enough to drag your arse back to a temple, and pay for the resurrection. If too much time passes it isn't going to work as your spirit has departed, and if you're in elysium you've forgotten about your body, and if you're in hell I doubt they'll let you out. Also if the body is decomposed you're screwed. Wounds can be healed, but if you innards are goop your resurrection isn't going to last very long.
So there you go. You only get your stuff back if you have friends looking out for you.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Looks like I was posting while you were, Kaos&Light. I completely agree with you.
Death is all too frequent in MMOs. People die every few levels when they get in over their head. In any PnP game death is a rare occurence unless you have a sadistic DM. I know people who have played the same character for years over the course of a campaign, and it is a serious event when someone in the party dies.
Any game with death as frequent as it happens in WoW would be idiotic with permadeath, and I think that is why a lot of people really don't like the idea. Death in a PnP game is usually reserved the incredibly foolhardy, and it sounds like we both wish MMOs followed that spirit.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
NO, i won't play such a game, even if it was free and worlds best mmorpg.
a perma death is not a good thing, if you play a game for 2 years and your account suddenly die's you'll be more then pissed off cuz you would have lost 2 years of work....
~Alex007152~
YMMV of course, but for me... if it was two years of work I'd be pissed off at myself for playing it in the first place - with or without permadeath.
If it was two years of fun, I'd be looking forward to the next two years while rolling up my next character.
I guess it wouldn't be so bad except that this question is asked several times a month.
Along with "Don't you want a game with FFA PvP and full looting?"
~ Ancient Membership ~
Yes, but I'm not trying to start a debate about it. Asking "Don't you" is a leading question. I'm just trying to get a feel for who would play it, and who wants nothing to do with it.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
permadeath generally wont work in a MMORPG. the entire point of playing an MMORPG is to advance a character that will be your online persona for a number of months, if not years. if the character can just be deleted and lost for all eternity because some pillock AFK kills you or something, NO one would play.
i AM for severe penalties for death..... such as UO's losing everything on your corpse, including possible house keys which could have seriously dire consequences. people argue that players wont carry anything valuable if this is the case... but the simple solution is to force people to carry valuables. house keys HAVE to be in your backpack before unlocking your house etc etc. i also think stat loss in UO was a great idea for PK's (losing 25% off of every skill permenantly when you die), it really kept the PK population down to the few that were seriously, seriously elite in pvp and never died.
but permadeath isnt the way to go, theres no fun in that what-so-ever and its simple not what RPG's are about.
It's looking less and less likely that I will ever play another mmorpg that DOESN'T have perma-death of some type.
Going along with what you guys were talking about I'll say that I would be unhappy if my charcters kept perma-dying five minutes after I create them. Death would have to be less common or perma-death delayed in some way. Trials of Ascension, for example, plans to give players multiple lives to lose before perma-death (100 is the current number they talk about).
But all things considered, perma-death would do so much good for a game I think it's selfish and short sighted for people to object to it.
It would more or less force the devs to do more with the game than making it just a progression grind.
It would prevent the game from stagnating; you know, when the game is a few years along and the newbie areas are empty and the advanced areas are crowded with bored people bitching that they don't have enough to do.
It would help maintain a logical consistency in the game world.
It would make it much easier for the devs to create a virtual world as oppossed to a linear path progression grind game.
It would give more meaning to PvP.
It would create a real sense of danger in PvE and PvP.
It would be the ultimate, real, and meaningful risk vs. reward. Argh, it annoys me so much when people talk about risk vs. reward in EQ clone games when there is no such thing as risk in those games. If you can't lose anything there is no risk. When people talk about risk vs. reward in EQ clones what they are really talking about is {time+grinding+number of people} = {reward with absolutely no risk at all}. You can't really lose anything in progression grind, non-perma-death games. The worst that can happen is that your reward will be delayed if things go wrong.
You can see that I'm a supporter of perma-death. I think people get scared of it unnecessarily. Heck, all of our characters essentially perma-die eventually anyway when we quit the game they are in or retire that character and start over with an alt. And if everyone is playing by the same rules it's not like you are the only person who's going to have a character perma-die. Just roll with the punches and don't take it so personally.
I have become convinced that some form of perma-death is absolutely required if we are ever going to get away from these stupid, shallow, progression treadmill games.
No I would not play a MMO with permanent, character obliterating death. Your toon represents an investment of time and accomplishments. With permdeath, most players would be too afraid to take on real challenges. I can see it- oops your level 60 just bit it. Cya guys in 4 months after I level up another toon.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
No I woudn't play a game with perma-death... And I dont even die that much but to me perma-death is lame. And I have seen how mad some people get when they die in games without perma-death I dont even want to think what would happen if they could never play again. and in an MMO I wouldnt want to see someone loss their toon because of some sort of lag death. I dont even mind full loot rules like the old UO but I dont want perma death I just dont like it
I'm only quoting you to there, because this will apply regardless of what the next few words are:
That may be true for you, but I guarantee it's completely false for a significant portion of MMORPG players. Probably even a majority of them - regardless of what it is (though it could very well be that you're echoing the sentiments of the largest minority.)
I'm only quoting you to there, because this will apply regardless of what the next few words are:
That may be true for you, but I guarantee it's completely false for a significant portion of MMORPG players. Probably even a majority of them - regardless of what it is (though it could very well be that you're echoing the sentiments of the largest minority.)
so name a popular MMO where permadeath has worked? the only one i can even think of was Jedi in SWG, and even that only lasted a matter of months before they stopped the perma death rule from so many player complaints.
I'm only quoting you to there, because this will apply regardless of what the next few words are:
That may be true for you, but I guarantee it's completely false for a significant portion of MMORPG players. Probably even a majority of them - regardless of what it is (though it could very well be that you're echoing the sentiments of the largest minority.)
I disagree. Most players don't want permdeath. A small minority might want it.
-Hunt'n
-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
I can understand the folks who say "I wouldn't play it."
I can also understand (and agree) with the folks who say "It wouldn't work in EQ2/WoW/insertclonehere." It wouldn't; the mechanics of those games are geared towards easy-and-meaningless death.
I can't quite understand the folks who say "nobody would play any game" when the topic comes up as often as it does. Right now, the poll is showing that just under 50% of the respondants would play it.
Cue arguments about self-selecting samples and all, but I'd say that's enough support for the idea to merit continued discussion of it. (Not that continued discussion wouldn't happen anyway..)
I'm only quoting you to there, because this will apply regardless of what the next few words are:
That may be true for you, but I guarantee it's completely false for a significant portion of MMORPG players. Probably even a majority of them - regardless of what it is (though it could very well be that you're echoing the sentiments of the largest minority.)
I disagree. Most players don't want permdeath. A small minority might want it.
-Hunt'n
I didn't say a majority would want permadeath.
I said a majority would disagree with whatever any one person would claim was the entire point of playing an MMORPG, regardless of what they said.
I can't even think of one that's really *tried* it. Some old school MUDs, sure, but not an MMORPG.
SWG Jedi? That wasn't a real try at it, it was tacking it on to a single class in a game designed around cheap-and-easy-death as a hamfisted attempt to siphon off the appeal of that class.
Yes I would.
EDIT: I notice that there are more people saying "no"
That's not a bad thing because with the smaller group of people playing a perma-death game and knowing what they are getting into, it would make a better community.
I think what Kaos&Light was saying when he first quoted Hohbein is that you can't say no one will play a game with permadeath. Some people will, but of course not everyone will want to play.
The real question is will enough people play a permadeath game to make it worth developing? Nobody can answer that question since no MMO has really tried it. You can give your opinion, or educated guesses all day long citing any examples you want, but no one has solid figures polling every gamer out there.
I also realize this poll isn't going to give me proof enough of the population wants a permadeath game since one forum poll can't be representational of the entire gaming, or even the MMO gaming community.
The point is that the MMO genre is expanding. WoW brought a ton of new players to the genre, and from my experience once a players tries an MMO they will try others. When a genre expands the formula begins to change, and games that fill niches in the market become viable. An MMO with permadeath could possibly become a niche game if enough people want it.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Yes, I would play an MMOG with perma-death providing it were rare. If the player has a will made out then they should be able to come back as a relative, either close or distant, or even just a friend or acquaintance. The new character would inherit all that was left when the relative or benefactor died. If they had no will then everything would be lost.
If the dead player had good business connections some of these should benefit the one inheriting their stuff.
All of this should help in making it easier for the new character to come up in level or prestige/ability.
Coming back as a new player opens opportunities to take different paths to success, learn from mistakes of the deceased, and provide interesting and challenging scenarios.
Death in most games now is much too frequent and meaningless. Perma-death could actually enhance a players opportunities, assets, and wisdom.
Why does every battle have to be to the death?
Sometimes there are surrenders, truces, injuries, or simply one knows when to quit and come again another day.
Make death rare I say but have it permanent when it does happen.
Just my thoughts...
Show of hands, how many people here played Diablo 2 in hardcore mode? Come to think of it, how many people are playing Diablo 2 in hardcore mode righ now as you read this? Didn't Diablo 2 use levels? Wasn't Diablo 2 a grindfest? If you did play, and enjoy, D2 in hardcore mode, then you'll probably like a permadeath MMO as well. Regardless of wheter it uses a level or skill based system.
I also hate to keep bringing this up (well, not really), but games like NetHack and ADOM are incredibly popular, single player, permadeath games. This is even more incredible given that fact that most Rogue likes don't even have graphics, just a bunch of ASCII characters that are supposed to represent game objects.
If permadeath is so horrible, neither Diablo 2's hardcore mode nor the host of Rogue like games floating around the net would be played by anyone and would have died out years ago.
Frustration isn't a bad thing, it gives life meaning and encourages us to do better. I don't see what is so wrong with wanting my games to feel more rewarding and meaningful. Stress free living is a waste of time and will leave you totally empty and wondering why.
There's an issue that I'll come out of lurkdom to post a link about:
The Eight Inevitable Stages of the Permadeath Debate
http://booboo.phpwebhosting.com/~ubiq/index.php?p=282
How are we doing?
would have to have permadeath to be the perfect mmorpg.
pass down whats in the bank to your 'heir'(next char) and maybe even some skills as 'learned' from your kin or whatever.
i'd spend every day killing everyone i see with the name 'loveapple' and 'meyoulove'
[quote]Originally posted by Boron
[b]There's an issue that I'll come out of lurkdom to post a link about:
The Eight Inevitable Stages of the Permadeath Debate [url=http://booboo.phpwebhosting.com/~ubiq/index.php?p=282]
How are we doing?
[/b][/quote]
I think this particular flare-up skipped stage one: tho there was an inquiry, it was less of the "I bet nobody's thought of this" and more of the "show of hands, who'd be into it and who wouldn't?"
#3 is either misnamed or includes some examples that don't fit (last two are not 'obvious,' they are more 'myopic criticisms') so I refuse to recognize it. #4 - I've probably hit, but I recognize and (attempt to) account for the myopic aspect (yeah, there are other ways of doing things; but as the real Captain Obvious would say, some folks like chocolate and some like strawberry.) 5 and 6 have shown up, 7 we've touched on.
But the burning question in my mind is: are you aiming for stage 2 or stage 8?
(Personally, I'm happy to keep hammering on the subject until there are at least a few offerings that include it - yes, even if I do have to do it myself. Not because I feel I have anything 'new' to say on the subject, but because a snowball's chance in hell of getting the game I'd like to play is better than no chance at all.)