Lore and attunement can help control which items can be sold and which can only be banked if it is replaced. To make important items, 'bind on pick up' or 'bind on equip' or 'level requirements' it limits the sale of important and powerful items and how much they cost. Mundane items or less powerful items might still be worth alot, especially if there are alot of them early on. However, historically, powerful items usable at level 1 fetched some of the highest prices due to their high demand. The result was that people 'camped' these items in demand and charged a fortune for them. Making an alt that could equip powerful items is what draws the large coins.
Lore and attunement can help control which items can be sold and which can only be banked if it is replaced. To make important items, 'bind on pick up' or 'bind on equip' or 'level requirements' it limits the sale of important and powerful items and how much they cost. Mundane items or less powerful items might still be worth alot, especially if there are alot of them early on. However, historically, powerful items usable at level 1 fetched some of the highest prices due to their high demand. The result was that people 'camped' these items in demand and charged a fortune for them. Making an alt that could equip powerful items is what draws the large coins.
Item power can be handled with skill caps, focusing power off an item based on the players attribute, etc... so there really isn't a need to bar it based on power. Risk/reward balance is one of the points I was talking about.
Lore/attunement is a way to stop a lot of this, but in my opinion, it doesn't deal with the main issue which I think is the fact that player trade really isn't integrated into the games systems. It is just "there" and has no relation to the actual game structure and design which leaves the developers with little means to control abuses or the result of abuses because they have extremely limited means to affect it.
If they could create a trade system with mechanics that present obstacles following risk/reward design and choice/consequence behavior that is integrated into the rest of the game systems (factions, politics, lore, etc...) then the could implement means of influence without drastic tagging, flagging, etc... on items. It really just depends on what is done and how it is implemented.
@Sinist ; If this thread is about generating ideas for the developers of Pantheon, why do you insist on replying to every idea posted, frequently ridiculing or attacking the idea and/or poster? Doing so is tantamount to appointing yourself the filter for said developers. Constantly commenting on every post hurts any kind of creative flow that this thread might otherwise attain.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
@Sinist ; If this thread is about generating ideas for the developers of Pantheon, why do you insist on replying to every idea posted, frequently ridiculing or attacking the idea and/or poster? Doing so is tantamount to appointing yourself the filter for said developers. Constantly commenting on every post hurts any kind of creative flow that this thread might otherwise attain.
What do you think discussion is? Someone gives an idea, another comments on it, they respond back, and it keeps going. If people can't handle discussion, they have no business being on a discussion board.
By the way, care to point out specifically with a quote where I was "attacking and ridiculing" peoples suggestions or were you just "attacking and ridiculing" me personally with a false accusation?
All the classics had it right. Let everything happen naturally.
Some like to adventure only, some like to craft only, some like to play the market only, some like to dungeons and raids only............Some take their time and do it all. Their should be cause and effect to everything you do, strength and weaknesses.
LEAVE THE SYSTEM ALONE !..... It's called freedom !!!!
Slightly off topic but not :
Remember Vanilla World of Warcraft where you needed 90 gold at level 40 to get your mount ?
Well, if you carelessly play with the intentions of getting to Max level 60, then you pay the price of not having enough gold to buy your mount at level 40............perfect !!
LEAVE THE SYSTEM ALONE !.... It's called freedom !!!!
@Sinist ; If this thread is about generating ideas for the developers of Pantheon, why do you insist on replying to every idea posted, frequently ridiculing or attacking the idea and/or poster? Doing so is tantamount to appointing yourself the filter for said developers. Constantly commenting on every post hurts any kind of creative flow that this thread might otherwise attain.
What do you think discussion is? Someone gives an idea, another comments on it, they respond back, and it keeps going. If people can't handle discussion, they have no business being on a discussion board.
By the way, care to point out specifically with a quote where I was "attacking and ridiculing" peoples suggestions or were you just "attacking and ridiculing" me personally with a false accusation?
You told me how to post several times !.....Your not in charge !!
Watching this thread and others on this game gives me the impression that a rather frightening player base is supporting this game. Oh and you are is you're .
All the classics had it right. Let everything happen naturally.
Some like to adventure only, some like to craft only, some like to play the market only, some like to dungeons and raids only............Some take their time and do it all. Their should be cause and effect to everything you do, strength and weaknesses.
LEAVE THE SYSTEM ALONE !..... It's called freedom !!!!
Slightly off topic but not :
Remember Vanilla World of Warcraft where you needed 90 gold at level 40 to get your mount ?
Well, if you carelessly play with the intentions of getting to Max level 60, then you pay the price of not having enough gold to buy your mount at level 40............perfect !!
LEAVE THE SYSTEM ALONE !.... It's called freedom !!!!
Here is the issue though. In a game world, there are no laws of nature other than what the developers decide to create, so "freedom" in a game world has much more problems than "freedom" in reality. In reality, the laws of nature tend to balance out peoples choices with consequences.
So, in a game world, extra attention has to be put to those systems to achieve some form of balance in the reality of the game world.
For instance, take your WoW example. Why did people not have enough money if they carelessly played? Do you think that the developers just randomly assigned a value to the mount or how much you earned as you killed mobs? All of this is balanced to achieve a result of game play. So in your example, people had to be careful because the amount of money earned was designed to require the player to save for that purchase.
Cause and effect have to be designed into the system or you end up with abuses, circumvention of play, etc... Trade currently has some issues because it is not beholden to any specific system of play. There is no natural law to its design. The player does not have to constantly feed/clothe/shelter themselves, there are not numerous costs of doing business, there are no systems of government in the markets or standards of behavior as it concerns natural laws of reality. There are none because the trade is not a "design" such as your example of earning money in WoW was, is just something people do and so there are no systems of consequence if people do not "play" trade properly. \
@Sinist ; If this thread is about generating ideas for the developers of Pantheon, why do you insist on replying to every idea posted, frequently ridiculing or attacking the idea and/or poster? Doing so is tantamount to appointing yourself the filter for said developers. Constantly commenting on every post hurts any kind of creative flow that this thread might otherwise attain.
What do you think discussion is? Someone gives an idea, another comments on it, they respond back, and it keeps going. If people can't handle discussion, they have no business being on a discussion board.
By the way, care to point out specifically with a quote where I was "attacking and ridiculing" peoples suggestions or were you just "attacking and ridiculing" me personally with a false accusation?
You told me how to post several times !.....Your not in charge !!
Where? Please point out where I "told you how to post" several times. You can use the quote feature if you like and show exactly where you claim this happened. That way, I can see your point and make efforts if in fact your accusation is true and if it is not, then people can see the truth of your accusation.
Watching this thread and others on this game gives me the impression that a rather frightening player base is supporting this game. Oh and you are is you're .
How so? It helps if you point out where you see such and then lay proper claim. I don't understand what it is with people who think that they can make an accusation and then not even explain where or what it is directed to.
Also, it is nice that you are thoughtful enough to want to grammar check people, but unless you are going to commit and actually check all of the responses, you just come off as pretentious. /shrug
When you come up with an idea for making trading better, I'll be sure to let you know. Nothing you have proposed thus far has had any positive effect on making trading better.
In fact most of your proposals would completely destroy Pantheon in the eyes of the niche it is targeting.
You haven't entered the discussion, you haven't even made a logical argument and have extreme issues with just keeping up on the reading of the discussion. What makes you think I give a damn about your contributions after your continued attacks and dismissals?
Run along kiddo.
Here you go, Sinist. Both derisive and a veiled insult of Rallyd's opinion and person, attacking their comprehension and ability to 'keeping up on the reading of the discussion'. The 'Run along kiddo' is both dismissive and ridiculing. Yes, Rallyd's post was aggressively stated, but your response was equally hostile.
If you're interested, take a look at page 4 of this thread. There's quite a few more examples.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
OP certainly have a point, trading in MMOs are pretty unbalancing. For an instance does someone who already have 1 or more maxed out character with lots of gold have a huge advantage over someone on their first character leveling up. And that is not taking gold sellers and helpful guildies in account.
But I think he is trying to fix the wrong problem here. The real issue is that so much of your characters power comes from gear instead of stats and skill.
It is not a new problem, D&D always had the same issue, if the DM messes up and gives the players too much gold or too cool cool gear they are unbeatable, something that never happens in games like Runequest, Vampire, Shadowrun or Call of Cthulhu. The MMOs are based on D&D and inhereted this problem.
You can regulate it like many single player games do but there are always ways around it.
So basically: let the gear have about 25% of the impact they have on your character in most games and problem solved.
When you come up with an idea for making trading better, I'll be sure to let you know. Nothing you have proposed thus far has had any positive effect on making trading better.
In fact most of your proposals would completely destroy Pantheon in the eyes of the niche it is targeting.
You haven't entered the discussion, you haven't even made a logical argument and have extreme issues with just keeping up on the reading of the discussion. What makes you think I give a damn about your contributions after your continued attacks and dismissals?
Run along kiddo.
Here you go, Sinist. Both derisive and a veiled insult of Rallyd's opinion and person, attacking their comprehension and ability to 'keeping up on the reading of the discussion'. The 'Run along kiddo' is both dismissive and ridiculing. Yes, Rallyd's post was aggressively stated, but your response was equally hostile.
If you're interested, take a look at page 4 of this thread. There's quite a few more examples.
That is RallyD's ONLY response to this thread. Are you seriously going to say that his response of telling me my idea sucks, offering no input and claiming it will destroy the game is discussion?
I sent the guy packing because he was attacking. Unless, you think civil discourse is telling people outright that their idea sucks?
At least I discuss with each person and provided my reason as to why I may disagree.
As for the others, go ahead... make your case. So far, your first example is to use a single post from a person who made no comment on the OP or the topics of the thread and simply stated the Ideas suck.
Then you have the audacity to claim I am the one attacking?
Look, I live by a principal of you get treated nicely if you act nicely. It is simple, if you don't want to be treated like an ass, then don't walk into a thread and act like one. Rallyd did just that and here you are defending him, trying to stretch some means of a defense because you don't like me or my comments.
Well next time bring some logical argument, leave the emotions at the door.
OP certainly have a point, trading in MMOs are pretty unbalancing. For an instance does someone who already have 1 or more maxed out character with lots of gold have a huge advantage over someone on their first character leveling up. And that is not taking gold sellers and helpful guildies in account.
But I think he is trying to fix the wrong problem here. The real issue is that so much of your characters power comes from gear instead of stats and skill.
It is not a new problem, D&D always had the same issue, if the DM messes up and gives the players too much gold or too cool cool gear they are unbeatable, something that never happens in games like Runequest, Vampire, Shadowrun or Call of Cthulhu. The MMOs are based on D&D and inhereted this problem.
You can regulate it like many single player games do but there are always ways around it.
So basically: let the gear have about 25% of the impact they have on your character in most games and problem solved.
Gear can be a part of the problem, but I think if you go the other direction and make gear completely irrelevant, you kill a very key aspect of character development in a game.
Since gear is a part of the progression system, if you make it completely invaluable, tying all development to the character, why have it at all? As long as you have gear progression, there will always be the desire to use it as a means to excel. So it is something a progressive game system needs.I have played some games where items were not that important, and it was not as entertaining as games that provided item progression as power increases.
That is not to say that items should be massively overpowering, that is where reigning them in with skill/attribute tie ins and caps come into play.
As I said, though, as long as gear improves the character more than without it, there will be a market for players to trade/sell to buy such advantage.
My point though in the OP was that trade is the real issue here. I don't think removing desire is healthy for the game. People should want to search and find that better loot and that loot should give them some sense of worth for that effort. The issue is with people bypassing the content requirement to achieve it by not having the risk/reward of the player who actually seeks out and obtains the item personally.
Now if trade was made with equal levels of risk/reward in its process, then no specific option would be advantageous. It has always been easier for me to work the trade system to advance that it has been to seek out the loot myself. That is the issue that needs to find balance among the systems and what I was talking about in the OP.
When you come up with an idea for making trading better, I'll be sure to let you know. Nothing you have proposed thus far has had any positive effect on making trading better.
In fact most of your proposals would completely destroy Pantheon in the eyes of the niche it is targeting.
You haven't entered the discussion, you haven't even made a logical argument and have extreme issues with just keeping up on the reading of the discussion. What makes you think I give a damn about your contributions after your continued attacks and dismissals?
Run along kiddo.
Here you go, Sinist. Both derisive and a veiled insult of Rallyd's opinion and person, attacking their comprehension and ability to 'keeping up on the reading of the discussion'. The 'Run along kiddo' is both dismissive and ridiculing. Yes, Rallyd's post was aggressively stated, but your response was equally hostile.
If you're interested, take a look at page 4 of this thread. There's quite a few more examples.
That is RallyD's ONLY response to this thread. Are you seriously going to say that his response of telling me my idea sucks, offering no input and claiming it will destroy the game is discussion?
I sent the guy packing because he was attacking. Unless, you think civil discourse is telling people outright that their idea sucks?
At least I discuss with each person and provided my reason as to why I may disagree.
As for the others, go ahead... make your case. So far, your first example is to use a single post from a person who made no comment on the OP or the topics of the thread and simply stated the Ideas suck.
Then you have the audacity to claim I am the one attacking?
Look, I live by a principal of you get treated nicely if you act nicely. It is simple, if you don't want to be treated like an ass, then don't walk into a thread and act like one. Rallyd did just that and here you are defending him, trying to stretch some means of a defense because you don't like me or my comments.
Well next time bring some logical argument, leave the emotions at the door.
So, is Rallyd's opinion somehow less valid than any other forum member because he has only posted one time? Sure, I've already granted that Rallyd's comment was pretty hostile, but does that justify your response. Civil discourse
Just because you create a thread doesn't give you some kind of special ownership or moderation privileges. You can edit your own words, not other contributors. You don't control the responses, and don't get to determine if they are on topic or not. Entirely too many good ideas come from off-topic discussions, if you only listen.
As for your 'reasons' why you disagree, a good portion of these are disrespectful to the recipient and the community at large. I referenced you to take a look at your own posts on Page 4 of this thread if you really need other examples. I chose not to quote bulk examples of your indiscretions.
Let me also point out that my opinions about my observation is not attacking you nor anyone else on this site, even though you have reacted as though I did.
And that should be 'principle' rather than 'principal'. And if you try to do as you claim, there appears to be disparity between your words and your actions.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
So, is Rallyd's opinion somehow less valid than any other forum member because he has only posted one time? Sure, I've already granted that Rallyd's comment was pretty hostile, but does that justify your response. Civil discourse
Civility is for the civil, those who dismiss it deserve no kind treatment. I didn't see you rush in to defend against his attack on me, so please excuse me if I take your white knighting to be of nothing more than trollish behavior.
Just because you create a thread doesn't give you some kind of special
ownership or moderation privileges. You can edit your own words, not
other contributors. You don't control the responses, and don't get to
determine if they are on topic or not. Entirely too many good ideas
come from off-topic discussions, if you only listen.
Nor does it give you the authority to come in and dictate to me how I should treat hostile posters. You don't like it? Tough, learn to live with disappointment and go bother someone else with your pointless derailing of this thread.
As for your 'reasons' why you disagree, a good portion of these are
disrespectful to the recipient and the community at large. I referenced
you to take a look at your own posts on Page 4 of this thread if you
really need other examples. I chose not to quote bulk examples of your
indiscretions.
Now you are playing the victim fallacy, attempting to act as if my responses have been as such and you will cite any small thing to get offended at.
As for your other examples, you vaguely mentioned such about page 4 of the thread, am supposed to be able to read your mind? There is a reason I asked you to quote it, if that is too much trouble for you, then don't expect me to do the work for you and search for support for your own argument. Present it, or be shown to be lacking.
Let me also point out that my opinions about my observation is not
attacking you nor anyone else on this site, even though you have reacted
as though I did.
I think it is quite clear to anyone that your use of the victimization fallacy and your Alinksy attempts to put me on the defense is a defensive attack, not to serve any real discussion, which is why you refuse to quote any other accusations you make.
And that should be 'principle' rather than 'principal'. And if you try
to do as you claim, there appears to be disparity between your words and
your actions.
Another attempt to avoid the discussion by implying superiority through grammar/spelling correction, a sign of pretentiousness, and a fallacious attempt to make the opponent seem intellectually lacking.
I asked you to bring logic, not logical fallacies.
I think we are done, I will not let you or RallyD continue to derail this thread. Off to the troll bin you go (aka ignore).
You guys really just need to stop responding directly to him. Its pointless. He is not here to create solutions, he is here to "win" arguments. That's why he constantly changes his position, or nudges it one way or the other depending on the post he is replying to. There are some people who truly want to solve problems, and other people who argue to win arguments. He is not the former.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
@Sinist ; If this thread is about generating ideas for the developers of Pantheon, why do you insist on replying to every idea posted, frequently ridiculing or attacking the idea and/or poster? Doing so is tantamount to appointing yourself the filter for said developers. Constantly commenting on every post hurts any kind of creative flow that this thread might otherwise attain.
What do you think discussion is? Someone gives an idea, another comments on it, they respond back, and it keeps going. If people can't handle discussion, they have no business being on a discussion board.
By the way, care to point out specifically with a quote where I was "attacking and ridiculing" peoples suggestions or were you just "attacking and ridiculing" me personally with a false accusation?
You told me how to post several times !.....Your not in charge !!
Where? Please point out where I "told you how to post" several times. You can use the quote feature if you like and show exactly where you claim this happened. That way, I can see your point and make efforts if in fact your accusation is true and if it is not, then people can see the truth of your accusation.
Fair enough?
Proof !
I started a topic several weeks back called " Larger companies will be mad ".
Sure the topic heading it self was a bold statement, this is true.......However, The post was talking about how larger companies have full control of how we play. They dictate our feelings and pretend they are facts and pretend their research is what players asked for.
This is not true, just read General Discussion topics and see for your self how hostile the community is because of this.
VR is ignoring all the bad marketing and resetting mmos back to its original intent. This in my "opinion" will be welcome by all. Some don't even know it yet, because some never even had the opportunity to play a REAL mmo..........This, this post was appropriate and just the heading was bold.
Sinist response :
- Quote -
OP, this is a stupid thread. Honestly, I question your motives that you made it. Why on earth would you start such a stupid infantile thread with a taunt to the idiots who don't even give a crap about this game? What did you hope to accomplish? Why do you do such? WE don't need these idiots here, they don't help the game, they don't give a flying flip about the game.
If you think people like me are going to sit here and defend your ridiculous points, forget it. You argue with these idiots and keep in mind the old saying "Do not argue with fools lest you be mistaken for one", enjoy this idiotic thread, I am done with it.
@Sinist ; If this thread is about generating ideas for the developers of Pantheon, why do you insist on replying to every idea posted, frequently ridiculing or attacking the idea and/or poster? Doing so is tantamount to appointing yourself the filter for said developers. Constantly commenting on every post hurts any kind of creative flow that this thread might otherwise attain.
What do you think discussion is? Someone gives an idea, another comments on it, they respond back, and it keeps going. If people can't handle discussion, they have no business being on a discussion board.
By the way, care to point out specifically with a quote where I was "attacking and ridiculing" peoples suggestions or were you just "attacking and ridiculing" me personally with a false accusation?
You told me how to post several times !.....Your not in charge !!
Where? Please point out where I "told you how to post" several times. You can use the quote feature if you like and show exactly where you claim this happened. That way, I can see your point and make efforts if in fact your accusation is true and if it is not, then people can see the truth of your accusation.
Fair enough?
Proof !
I started a topic several weeks back called " Larger companies will be mad ".
Sure the topic heading it self was a bold statement, this is true.......However, The post was talking about how larger companies have full control of how we play. They dictate our feelings and pretend they are facts and pretend their research is what players asked for.
This is not true, just read General Discussion topics and see for your self how hostile the community is because of this.
VR is ignoring all the bad marketing and resetting mmos back to its original intent. This in my "opinion" will be welcome by all. Some don't even know it yet, because some never even had the opportunity to play a REAL mmo..........This, this post was appropriate and just the heading was bold.
Sinist response :
- Quote -
OP, this is a stupid thread. Honestly, I question your motives that you made it. Why on earth would you start such a stupid infantile thread with a taunt to the idiots who don't even give a crap about this game? What did you hope to accomplish? Why do you do such? WE don't need these idiots here, they don't help the game, they don't give a flying flip about the game.
If you think people like me are going to sit here and defend your ridiculous points, forget it. You argue with these idiots and keep in mind the old saying "Do not argue with fools lest you be mistaken for one", enjoy this idiotic thread, I am done with it.
Like I say your not in charge !!!!!
It was a troll thread, plain and simple.
Look at the discussion it produced? It was designed to piss people off. It worked.
Now apparently, discussing player trade problems and solutions is comparable to a thread that taunted people who did not like this game and brought them in full force to an insult war? I explained exactly why your post was such, I dealt with the content of your post.
As for this thread I even moved to a new thread to avoid having to deal with the trolls in the previous one because I was tired of the constant attacks and dismissals by them.
You are welcome to attack the content of my discussion, but are you doing this? Nope... you are making childish arguments like saying "Don't tell me what to do!"
I didn't "tell you want to do", I pointed out the flaws of the discussion you provided in that thread you quoted and guess what, trolling posts are stupid. It would have been like me starting this thread and saying "All you player trade people will mad if Brad pulls out all your cheats in the game!"
You want to get upset, focus on the argument, not these fallacies of hurt feelings and childish tantrums with accusations of me trying to control you.
You can call my thread stupid all you like, but you had better do it with logical argument or your criticism is stupid. This is just reality. Don't like it, then lock yourself in a room away from the world. People will disagree, people will not cater to your feelings.
You guys really just need to stop responding directly to him. Its pointless. He is not here to create solutions, he is here to "win" arguments. That's why he constantly changes his position, or nudges it one way or the other depending on the post he is replying to. There are some people who truly want to solve problems, and other people who argue to win arguments. He is not the former.
Says the guy that walks into new threads and starts throwing accusations.
It is clear that you and your buddies from Pantheon are here to insure that you get a game where game play is not the focus, where Pantheons own Tenants are not the focus (as you defy them in your arguments), but playing a content bypass game where you can buy your way up the game without playing it.
You guys call yourself old school players, but you represent mainstream and everything that has destroyed "gaming" over the years.
You call out that my suggestions would "destroy" the game, that "trade is the only point of playing the game", and then completely ignore the damage trade has done to game systems over the years. You hide under a veil of ignorance and promote mainstream solutions.
I am sure Pantheon will do quite well with your suggestions... then it will progress fast into the problems I mentioned... but as you once basically said in a thread about changes to avoid lesser content becoming invalidated... "As long as the the release players get through it designed well, who cares about the rest". Your very comment betrays the locust mainstream mentality wanting what you want regardless of the results of it on the game. It is why you folks want trade to be the loophole that it is.
@Sinist ; Allow me to suggest that for the purposes of generating a discussion, insulting, bullying or ridiculing other posters is going to have the opposite effect -- it harms the discussion process by encouraging people to refrain from sharing their ideas lest they be attacked themselves. One of them may have otherwise expressed the idea that you would find 'perfect', yet your actions would have driven them away. You have a good vocabulary, but your use of that vocabulary isn't supporting your position.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
@Sinist ; Allow me to suggest that for the purposes of generating a discussion, insulting, bullying or ridiculing other posters is going to have the opposite effect -- it harms the discussion process by encouraging people to refrain from sharing their ideas lest they be attacked themselves. One of them may have otherwise expressed the idea that you would find 'perfect', yet your actions would have driven them away. You have a good vocabulary, but your use of that vocabulary isn't supporting your position.
There are only a few people here interested in discussion and if you have noticed, I have been discussing with them with no attacks, just simple discussion. You and the others here have spent your time being offended creating conflict then acting as if you are just trying to help. Again, notice I have no conflict with others who just want to discuss the topic? Think on that a bit.
People like RallyD had no intererst in this discussion, which you would know if you had read the past TLC discussion. His response here, as well as other attackers in that TLC thread have only come here to attack, dismiss, and continue on the flames they provided in the previous thread.
You continue to present an air of pretentiousness which is why you continue to insult by evaluating my intellectual ability. The fact is, you are no different than someone like RallyD who entered to create conflict, however the difference with your responses is that it carries a narcissistic need which is why you keep "assessing" me and then attempting to admonish me for my discussion.
Please don't. It would be best if you either attended to the discussion or left the thread. As it is right now, all you are doing is derailing it for your own attention.
however the difference with your responses is that it carries a narcissistic need which is why you keep "assessing" me and then attempting to admonish me for my discussion.
Oh, man, this, this is ripe. Thank you for the chuckle, the cognitive dissonance is strong.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
At this point i guess Sinist is just great at trolling us all with his spam posts. There is no discussion to he had here or any other topic he jumps on to.
And as some other people mentioned: This is going far enough to scare people away from the forum or even the game.
TL;DR: Please don't feed the troll.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
At this point i guess Sinist is just great at trolling us all with his spam posts. There is no discussion to he had here or any other topic he jumps on to.
And as some other people mentioned: This is going far enough to scare people away from the forum or even the game.
TL;DR: Please don't feed the troll.
Mission accomplished right?
You and your crew didn't like the discussion about player trade in the TLC thread and so you began attacking and dismissing over and over. I start a new thread, you move there attacking and dismissing over and over.
As I said, notice how I have no problems discussing with people who are adults, who do not get offended at every little thing and do not have a problem with disagreement?
If anything, what this discussion shows is that if you don't toe the line with the Pantheon players, they will attack, dismiss, accuse, and troll to get you to stop all discussion.
Your posts are hurting this game, as it shows you and the others are no different than the WoW players who swarm and attack anything that does not meet their expectations.
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https://discord.gg/brgbpvY
Item power can be handled with skill caps, focusing power off an item based on the players attribute, etc... so there really isn't a need to bar it based on power. Risk/reward balance is one of the points I was talking about.
Lore/attunement is a way to stop a lot of this, but in my opinion, it doesn't deal with the main issue which I think is the fact that player trade really isn't integrated into the games systems. It is just "there" and has no relation to the actual game structure and design which leaves the developers with little means to control abuses or the result of abuses because they have extremely limited means to affect it.
If they could create a trade system with mechanics that present obstacles following risk/reward design and choice/consequence behavior that is integrated into the rest of the game systems (factions, politics, lore, etc...) then the could implement means of influence without drastic tagging, flagging, etc... on items. It really just depends on what is done and how it is implemented.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
By the way, care to point out specifically with a quote where I was "attacking and ridiculing" peoples suggestions or were you just "attacking and ridiculing" me personally with a false accusation?
All the classics had it right. Let everything happen naturally.
Some like to adventure only, some like to craft only, some like to play the market only, some like to dungeons and raids only............Some take their time and do it all. Their should be cause and effect to everything you do, strength and weaknesses.
LEAVE THE SYSTEM ALONE !..... It's called freedom !!!!
Slightly off topic but not :
Remember Vanilla World of Warcraft where you needed 90 gold at level 40 to get your mount ?
Well, if you carelessly play with the intentions of getting to Max level 60, then you pay the price of not having enough gold to buy your mount at level 40............perfect !!
LEAVE THE SYSTEM ALONE !.... It's called freedom !!!!
You told me how to post several times !.....Your not in charge !!
So, in a game world, extra attention has to be put to those systems to achieve some form of balance in the reality of the game world.
For instance, take your WoW example. Why did people not have enough money if they carelessly played? Do you think that the developers just randomly assigned a value to the mount or how much you earned as you killed mobs? All of this is balanced to achieve a result of game play. So in your example, people had to be careful because the amount of money earned was designed to require the player to save for that purchase.
Cause and effect have to be designed into the system or you end up with abuses, circumvention of play, etc... Trade currently has some issues because it is not beholden to any specific system of play. There is no natural law to its design. The player does not have to constantly feed/clothe/shelter themselves, there are not numerous costs of doing business, there are no systems of government in the markets or standards of behavior as it concerns natural laws of reality. There are none because the trade is not a "design" such as your example of earning money in WoW was, is just something people do and so there are no systems of consequence if people do not "play" trade properly. \
That is the point I was getting at in my OP.
Fair enough?
Also, it is nice that you are thoughtful enough to want to grammar check people, but unless you are going to commit and actually check all of the responses, you just come off as pretentious. /shrug
If you're interested, take a look at page 4 of this thread. There's quite a few more examples.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But I think he is trying to fix the wrong problem here. The real issue is that so much of your characters power comes from gear instead of stats and skill.
It is not a new problem, D&D always had the same issue, if the DM messes up and gives the players too much gold or too cool cool gear they are unbeatable, something that never happens in games like Runequest, Vampire, Shadowrun or Call of Cthulhu. The MMOs are based on D&D and inhereted this problem.
You can regulate it like many single player games do but there are always ways around it.
So basically: let the gear have about 25% of the impact they have on your character in most games and problem solved.
I sent the guy packing because he was attacking. Unless, you think civil discourse is telling people outright that their idea sucks?
At least I discuss with each person and provided my reason as to why I may disagree.
As for the others, go ahead... make your case. So far, your first example is to use a single post from a person who made no comment on the OP or the topics of the thread and simply stated the Ideas suck.
Then you have the audacity to claim I am the one attacking?
Look, I live by a principal of you get treated nicely if you act nicely. It is simple, if you don't want to be treated like an ass, then don't walk into a thread and act like one. Rallyd did just that and here you are defending him, trying to stretch some means of a defense because you don't like me or my comments.
Well next time bring some logical argument, leave the emotions at the door.
Gear can be a part of the problem, but I think if you go the other direction and make gear completely irrelevant, you kill a very key aspect of character development in a game.
Since gear is a part of the progression system, if you make it completely invaluable, tying all development to the character, why have it at all? As long as you have gear progression, there will always be the desire to use it as a means to excel. So it is something a progressive game system needs.I have played some games where items were not that important, and it was not as entertaining as games that provided item progression as power increases.
That is not to say that items should be massively overpowering, that is where reigning them in with skill/attribute tie ins and caps come into play.
As I said, though, as long as gear improves the character more than without it, there will be a market for players to trade/sell to buy such advantage.
My point though in the OP was that trade is the real issue here. I don't think removing desire is healthy for the game. People should want to search and find that better loot and that loot should give them some sense of worth for that effort. The issue is with people bypassing the content requirement to achieve it by not having the risk/reward of the player who actually seeks out and obtains the item personally.
Now if trade was made with equal levels of risk/reward in its process, then no specific option would be advantageous. It has always been easier for me to work the trade system to advance that it has been to seek out the loot myself. That is the issue that needs to find balance among the systems and what I was talking about in the OP.
Just because you create a thread doesn't give you some kind of special ownership or moderation privileges. You can edit your own words, not other contributors. You don't control the responses, and don't get to determine if they are on topic or not. Entirely too many good ideas come from off-topic discussions, if you only listen.
As for your 'reasons' why you disagree, a good portion of these are disrespectful to the recipient and the community at large. I referenced you to take a look at your own posts on Page 4 of this thread if you really need other examples. I chose not to quote bulk examples of your indiscretions.
Let me also point out that my opinions about my observation is not attacking you nor anyone else on this site, even though you have reacted as though I did.
And that should be 'principle' rather than 'principal'. And if you try to do as you claim, there appears to be disparity between your words and your actions.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Nor does it give you the authority to come in and dictate to me how I should treat hostile posters. You don't like it? Tough, learn to live with disappointment and go bother someone else with your pointless derailing of this thread.
Now you are playing the victim fallacy, attempting to act as if my responses have been as such and you will cite any small thing to get offended at.
As for your other examples, you vaguely mentioned such about page 4 of the thread, am supposed to be able to read your mind? There is a reason I asked you to quote it, if that is too much trouble for you, then don't expect me to do the work for you and search for support for your own argument. Present it, or be shown to be lacking.
I think it is quite clear to anyone that your use of the victimization fallacy and your Alinksy attempts to put me on the defense is a defensive attack, not to serve any real discussion, which is why you refuse to quote any other accusations you make.
Another attempt to avoid the discussion by implying superiority through grammar/spelling correction, a sign of pretentiousness, and a fallacious attempt to make the opponent seem intellectually lacking.
I asked you to bring logic, not logical fallacies.
I think we are done, I will not let you or RallyD continue to derail this thread. Off to the troll bin you go (aka ignore).
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Proof !
I started a topic several weeks back called " Larger companies will be mad ".
Sure the topic heading it self was a bold statement, this is true.......However, The post was talking about how larger companies have full control of how we play. They dictate our feelings and pretend they are facts and pretend their research is what players asked for.
This is not true, just read General Discussion topics and see for your self how hostile the community is because of this.
VR is ignoring all the bad marketing and resetting mmos back to its original intent. This in my "opinion" will be welcome by all. Some don't even know it yet, because some never even had the opportunity to play a REAL mmo..........This, this post was appropriate and just the heading was bold.
Sinist response :
- Quote -
OP, this is a stupid thread. Honestly, I question your motives that you made it. Why on earth would you start such a stupid infantile thread with a taunt to the idiots who don't even give a crap about this game? What did you hope to accomplish? Why do you do such? WE don't need these idiots here, they don't help the game, they don't give a flying flip about the game.
If you think people like me are going to sit here and defend your ridiculous points, forget it. You argue with these idiots and keep in mind the old saying "Do not argue with fools lest you be mistaken for one", enjoy this idiotic thread, I am done with it.
Like I say your not in charge !!!!!
Look at the discussion it produced? It was designed to piss people off. It worked.
Now apparently, discussing player trade problems and solutions is comparable to a thread that taunted people who did not like this game and brought them in full force to an insult war? I explained exactly why your post was such, I dealt with the content of your post.
As for this thread I even moved to a new thread to avoid having to deal with the trolls in the previous one because I was tired of the constant attacks and dismissals by them.
You are welcome to attack the content of my discussion, but are you doing this? Nope... you are making childish arguments like saying "Don't tell me what to do!"
I didn't "tell you want to do", I pointed out the flaws of the discussion you provided in that thread you quoted and guess what, trolling posts are stupid. It would have been like me starting this thread and saying "All you player trade people will mad if Brad pulls out all your cheats in the game!"
You want to get upset, focus on the argument, not these fallacies of hurt feelings and childish tantrums with accusations of me trying to control you.
You can call my thread stupid all you like, but you had better do it with logical argument or your criticism is stupid. This is just reality. Don't like it, then lock yourself in a room away from the world. People will disagree, people will not cater to your feelings.
It is clear that you and your buddies from Pantheon are here to insure that you get a game where game play is not the focus, where Pantheons own Tenants are not the focus (as you defy them in your arguments), but playing a content bypass game where you can buy your way up the game without playing it.
You guys call yourself old school players, but you represent mainstream and everything that has destroyed "gaming" over the years.
You call out that my suggestions would "destroy" the game, that "trade is the only point of playing the game", and then completely ignore the damage trade has done to game systems over the years. You hide under a veil of ignorance and promote mainstream solutions.
I am sure Pantheon will do quite well with your suggestions... then it will progress fast into the problems I mentioned... but as you once basically said in a thread about changes to avoid lesser content becoming invalidated... "As long as the the release players get through it designed well, who cares about the rest". Your very comment betrays the locust mainstream mentality wanting what you want regardless of the results of it on the game. It is why you folks want trade to be the loophole that it is.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
People like RallyD had no intererst in this discussion, which you would know if you had read the past TLC discussion. His response here, as well as other attackers in that TLC thread have only come here to attack, dismiss, and continue on the flames they provided in the previous thread.
You continue to present an air of pretentiousness which is why you continue to insult by evaluating my intellectual ability. The fact is, you are no different than someone like RallyD who entered to create conflict, however the difference with your responses is that it carries a narcissistic need which is why you keep "assessing" me and then attempting to admonish me for my discussion.
Please don't. It would be best if you either attended to the discussion or left the thread. As it is right now, all you are doing is derailing it for your own attention.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
There is no discussion to he had here or any other topic he jumps on to.
And as some other people mentioned: This is going far enough to scare people away from the forum or even the game.
TL;DR:
Please don't feed the troll.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
You and your crew didn't like the discussion about player trade in the TLC thread and so you began attacking and dismissing over and over. I start a new thread, you move there attacking and dismissing over and over.
As I said, notice how I have no problems discussing with people who are adults, who do not get offended at every little thing and do not have a problem with disagreement?
If anything, what this discussion shows is that if you don't toe the line with the Pantheon players, they will attack, dismiss, accuse, and troll to get you to stop all discussion.
Your posts are hurting this game, as it shows you and the others are no different than the WoW players who swarm and attack anything that does not meet their expectations.