I consider them "released' when: - they fulfill their promises of the Kickstarter - they are out of Early Access
I think it's a fallacy to claim they'll never be "done" or "released". That claim can only be made if they had never done the Kickstarter, to never have promised an Episodic set of adventures, to never have said they're going to deliver a "40-hour RPG" that is the spiritual successor to Ultima games, to never have promised to deliver "Episode 1" at launch -- then yes, I would agree with you.
But, they did make all those promises. They set the original goals for how the project was to be completed. If they had originally said "We will make a spiritual successor to the Ultima games with monthly releases" without promising any set of features, any length of gameplay in each monthly release, etc., that would have been an entirely different set of goals and promise to backers.
There are players who want a 40-hour single player RPG. There are players who want a sandbox MMO. They have to deliver both to claim they are "done" or "launched" or "released". The former is much more concrete to define. The latter is not and is more applicable to where they want to go.
Once that is done, they can reset expectations that moving forward, there are no more concepts of episodes. There will simply be monthly releases of "stuff". I'm not against the new paradigm shift. But I am going to call them out and make sure they deliver on their original promises.
I do wonder then, how they will manage to deliver "Episodes" 2 thru 5 and how they will redefine what that means to their original backers.
The first bullet is a completely valid point, and that's a fair benchmark to measure their progress by. I'll say that from my own ears, I've heard the debates on how they stack work leading up to the final wipe, and what's fairest for the players. I know without doubt that the Port folks would not take issue with anyone feeling the game isn't released until they've delivered on all the KS promises. They probably could do better representing it, but that's the benchmark they use in their internal conversations. I've been around the office enough to see emails and hear un-sanitized conversations, so I'm not going completely off the media-version of things.
I don't think final wipe is going to impact that though. If you take a look at they stuff coming post wipe ( https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/final-wipe-and-lot-selection.44430/ ), I don't think any of it is really the sort of thing that would require a wipe when it's added. None of it will really dramatically alter player-power in any great way, and it all builds on existing systems. The only two reasons to wipe are to implement major system overhauls, or because some system is changing that would dramatically impact player-balances.
I'd say they're on track to meet all their backer promises, and I don't think they'll have much of a problem moving on towards the next episodes. As larger projects go, I think they've been incredibly open with the community about what's happening and why all through the process. They've built up a solid reputation for integrity and for being careful with backer money. I don't think you can ask for much more than that.
Oh, and btw. There ARE concepts of episodes. Episodes are the major land masses and associated stories that exist in them. The monthly release is just a development system that follows the Agile framework a bit more closely than most developers do. After they feel the current continent is in a complete state and they've delivered all their promises from KS, you'll probably see a short down period, and then they'll announce a campaign for a new continent or something. That's just a guess on my part, but I think a good one.
Wow you are really drinking the kool aid if you are going to accept Portalarium Clinton'esque effort in trying to change the language of what pre-alpha, alpha, beta, open beta, release. There is no MMO in existence that is ever really done, so accepting and promoting Portalarium's spin on releasing a game in a pre-alpha state does no one any good service, including yourself. You gotta figure, even a couple weeks ago or sooner, you had Port reminding us that a game just reaching Alpha is when it is "feature complete" and that they were close to that point, and how we shouldn't judge the game in pre-alpha, yet on July 28th they will be not be feature complete yet will be "launched" in every way possible except for not using the actual language.
You of all people should not accept this kind of spin from any developer even if they are good guys, especially all those that took crowdfunding money. I have met them myself in Austin several times, they are good guys but even good guys make poor decisions. We should hold them to a proper standard and not accept this kind of spin doctoring.
Actually, I think it was MY attempt to change the language that may have crept into Starr's lexicon. A long time ago, I wrote an article for some other folks about what I called the "Cult of Perpetual Beta." That article came out several years ago, and I was blasting Mechwarrior Online at the time, I think. But plenty of other folks have done it. MWO, Neverwinter, and Crowfall is looking like it'll take advantage of the idea, as well. ...Firefall. Man, was Firefall bad about that. There are a boat load of smaller and indie projects out there that have been in "beta" for years. Is Minecraft even technically released yet?
So no, I'm not a fan of over-sweetened water in any form. Believe me, I call these guys out occasionally when I think they're wrong, and even make fun of them when they realize I was right all along, but this isn't one of those cases. I've been talking about the need to change how we talk about the development cycle in this industry for a very long time.
But you are correct that the Port guys have waved the "alpha" flag a few times, fairly or unfairly, and I doubt they'd have trouble admitting it. That's precisely why we need to look hard at these terms and realize their meanings have changed a bit, though. You can't be mislead by a term when you're looking beyond it to how it's being used. That's not me "spin doctoring," that's me trying to get folks to look beyond words and realize they don't really apply the same as they once did.
Wow you are really drinking the kool aid if you are going to accept Portalarium Clinton'esque effort in trying to change the language of what pre-alpha, alpha, beta, open beta, release. There is no MMO in existence that is ever really done, so accepting and promoting Portalarium's spin on releasing a game in a pre-alpha state does no one any good service, including yourself. You gotta figure, even a couple weeks ago or sooner, you had Port reminding us that a game just reaching Alpha is when it is "feature complete" and that they were close to that point, and how we shouldn't judge the game in pre-alpha, yet on July 28th they will be not be feature complete yet will be "launched" in every way possible except for not using the actual language.
You of all people should not accept this kind of spin from any developer even if they are good guys, especially all those that took crowdfunding money. I have met them myself in Austin several times, they are good guys but even good guys make poor decisions. We should hold them to a proper standard and not accept this kind of spin doctoring.
Actually, I think it was MY attempt to change the language that may have crept into Starr's lexicon. A long time ago, I wrote an article for some other folks about what I called the "Cult of Perpetual Beta." That article came out several years ago, and I was blasting Mechwarrior Online at the time, I think. But plenty of other folks have done it. MWO, Neverwinter, and Crowfall is looking like it'll take advantage of the idea, as well. ...Firefall. Man, was Firefall bad about that. There are a boat load of smaller and indie projects out there that have been in "beta" for years. Is Minecraft even technically released yet?
So no, I'm not a fan of over-sweetened water in any form. Believe me, I call these guys out occasionally when I think they're wrong, and even make fun of them when they realize I was right all along, but this isn't one of those cases. I've been talking about the need to change how we talk about the development cycle in this industry for a very long time.
But you are correct that the Port guys have waved the "alpha" flag a few times, fairly or unfairly, and I doubt they'd have trouble admitting it. That's precisely why we need to look hard at these terms and realize their meanings have changed a bit, though. You can't be mislead by a term when you're looking beyond it to how it's being used. That's not me "spin doctoring," that's me trying to get folks to look beyond words and realize they don't really apply the same as they once did.
Whether it was your influence or theirs, I am glad you admit that there is an effort to control public perception of the game launching by changing the language. Hey, it could very well work and the game will be successful but I just don't think the general public is going to buy this kind of word play and game will suffer. I do want it do be successful.
Also, not sure why you keep repeating it but literally no online game, much less anything mmo related is ever "done" or "released" by the way your trying to spin it. Using that excuse explain why July 28th is not the launch of SotA simply doesn't work. Again, I doubt most people will buy it.
Lastly, if Portalarium really wants people to believe that July 28th is not the launch of the game, then they should not be launching every single major system as live, progressive, and persistent. For example:
1. Character advancement system launched
2. Entire housing system launched.
3. Lot placement system launched.
4. Player owned town system launched.
5. Lot taxation system launched.
6. Half completed storyline system launched.
7. Crafting creation and advancement system launched.
8. Barely completed PvP system launched.
So what I suggest is what Portalarium had for its current thinking in March 2014 at the Duke/LOTM roundtable in Austin. At that time the current thinking of "Final wipe" would mean that the entire Storyline would be available and ready and character and crafting advancement system would be persistent. However, the entire Housing and Lot system would be available a couple months later. This would allow for all players to play through the story line and explore the world without worry about placing houses etc. Obviously, it would allow Port to ensure probably the most important selling point would be good and ready. You could probably point the GTAV / GTA Online as a bit of an example to this, so you could say the game is Launched on July 28th without playing word games by trying changing the language like what the word "is" is.
The first bullet is a completely valid point, and that's a fair benchmark to measure their progress by. I'll say that from my own ears, I've heard the debates on how they stack work leading up to the final wipe, and what's fairest for the players.
I think this statement is 100% true for the MMO crowd and 0% true for the single player RPG crowd. Look at the official forums and how this decision has divided its community. This decision was a complete slap in the face of every backer who was looking for the spiritual successor to the single player Ultima games.
Whatever goodwill they earned since the KS has eroded away over time as they favored building the MMO over the RPG.
I personally don't care as I want the next UO and don't think they can recapture the magic of the single player Ultima games given what they're building, or rather, not building. I have plenty of other great single player RPGs out there to fulfill that need.
As larger projects go, I think they've been incredibly open with the community about what's happening and why all through the process. They've built up a solid reputation for integrity and for being careful with backer money. I don't think you can ask for much more than that.
Sorry, I think the kool-aid is talking again. Your opinion about them being open and having a solid rep for integrity is just that -- go visit their official forums or external ones and that statement is arguably not true for a large portion of their community. But I do agree that they've been very careful about how they spend back money. Just not everyone agrees with their priorities or decisions or, arguably, how open they actually are with their backers.
Oh, and btw. There ARE concepts of episodes. Episodes are the major land masses and associated stories that exist in them. The monthly release is just a development system that follows the Agile framework a bit more closely than most developers do. After they feel the current continent is in a complete state and they've delivered all their promises from KS, you'll probably see a short down period, and then they'll announce a campaign for a new continent or something. That's just a guess on my part, but I think a good one.
Yes, I'm familiar with each continent being the next "episode". But I only question how they plan on moving forward as far as uninterrupted content delivery goes once Episode 1 launches. Sure, it'll be monthly, but as there is no subscription, how will they "package" and sell Episode 2? Will they pull the same shady tactic of delivering an incomplete half-baked Episode 2 to future Ep2 backers and claim Episode 2 went "live" the very month after Ep1 "launched"? Given the fiasco happening now over this decision to favor the MMO crowd over the RPG one, I think they've pretty much defined who their future backers are anyways.
They've built a casual sandbox MMO, without the RPG currently, and certainly without the PvP. That's what they're going "live" with and declaring to the world that is what's important to them and the kind of game they want, and the kind of customers they want. They'd need a miracle to bring back the single player crowd, let alone the PvP crowd.
I think this statement is 100% true for the MMO crowd and 0% true for the single player RPG crowd. Look at the official forums and how this decision has divided its community. This decision was a complete slap in the face of every backer who was looking for the spiritual successor to the single player Ultima games. . . .
Sorry, I think the kool-aid is talking again. Your opinion about them being open and having a solid rep for integrity is just that -- go visit their official forums or external ones and that statement is arguably not true for a large portion of their community. But I do agree that they've been very careful about how they spend back money. Just not everyone agrees with their priorities or decisions or, arguably, how open they actually are with their backers.
Your point about the RPG aspect is well-taken. I hadn't really thought about it, but I'm not sure you could have ever really expected the single-player experience you're talking about. I need to go back and see if it was represented like that. They may have because the game actually started as an RPG for mobile devices (the overworld is sort of a hold over from that), and it's pretty possible that language from the original concept colored the early PC project.
The problem is that it's really an MMO, and a huge amount of effort goes into that piece. You can't really expect a Witcher experience in the offline mode of an MMO. It's just that of the MMO part, there are pieces that there's no reason you can't do on your own. I know from early conversations with Richard that they really wanted an MMO that you could play bits of while offline. While traveling was the example used most often, and there was always mention of re-connecting at the end of it. Not to say it wasn't represented otherwise in some cases, but that's how it was in my conversations. That was my expectations.
Interesting. I'm going to think on that a bit and do some reading.
But w/r to openenss... Man, they have been super open. Seeing it from a media point of view, you have no idea how much gets hidden from the public in these things. Star Citizen being a current good example, love or hate them, they are most definitely not open. Shroud is massively open. You know when they hire, who they hire, and you get all the scrum notes. Scrum notes are a BIG deal.
I know there are some dissenting voices, but I'm very confident that they're a vocal minority. Polls like the one I mentioned in the article would not sit at 90% in favor if there were community problems. I don't think there's another game I've ever covered that could poll their community asking that question about offline content and get even a 50% approval for the move.
You know, we may disagree a bit on a couple points, but it's definitely not because you're stupid. Thanks for bothering to post. I have a great deal of appreciation for folks who help me find holes in my positions. I either change my mind, or come out of it having found a possible weak point and shored it up. Helps me really troll the crap out of the nutters. lol
Wow you are really drinking the kool aid if you are going to accept Portalarium Clinton'esque effort in trying to change the language of what pre-alpha, alpha, beta, open beta, release. There is no MMO in existence that is ever really done, so accepting and promoting Portalarium's spin on releasing a game in a pre-alpha state does no one any good service, including yourself. You gotta figure, even a couple weeks ago or sooner, you had Port reminding us that a game just reaching Alpha is when it is "feature complete" and that they were close to that point, and how we shouldn't judge the game in pre-alpha, yet on July 28th they will be not be feature complete yet will be "launched" in every way possible except for not using the actual language.
You of all people should not accept this kind of spin from any developer even if they are good guys, especially all those that took crowdfunding money. I have met them myself in Austin several times, they are good guys but even good guys make poor decisions. We should hold them to a proper standard and not accept this kind of spin doctoring.
Actually, I think it was MY attempt to change the language that may have crept into Starr's lexicon. A long time ago, I wrote an article for some other folks about what I called the "Cult of Perpetual Beta." That article came out several years ago, and I was blasting Mechwarrior Online at the time, I think. But plenty of other folks have done it. MWO, Neverwinter, and Crowfall is looking like it'll take advantage of the idea, as well. ...Firefall. Man, was Firefall bad about that. There are a boat load of smaller and indie projects out there that have been in "beta" for years. Is Minecraft even technically released yet?
So no, I'm not a fan of over-sweetened water in any form. Believe me, I call these guys out occasionally when I think they're wrong, and even make fun of them when they realize I was right all along, but this isn't one of those cases. I've been talking about the need to change how we talk about the development cycle in this industry for a very long time.
But you are correct that the Port guys have waved the "alpha" flag a few times, fairly or unfairly, and I doubt they'd have trouble admitting it. That's precisely why we need to look hard at these terms and realize their meanings have changed a bit, though. You can't be mislead by a term when you're looking beyond it to how it's being used. That's not me "spin doctoring," that's me trying to get folks to look beyond words and realize they don't really apply the same as they once did.
Whether it was your influence or theirs, I am glad you admit that there is an effort to control public perception of the game launching by changing the language. Hey, it could very well work and the game will be successful but I just don't think the general public is going to buy this kind of word play and game will suffer. I do want it do be successful.
Also, not sure why you keep repeating it but literally no online game, much less anything mmo related is ever "done" or "released" by the way your trying to spin it. Using that excuse explain why July 28th is not the launch of SotA simply doesn't work. Again, I doubt most people will buy it.
Lastly, if Portalarium really wants people to believe that July 28th is not the launch of the game, then they should not be launching every single major system as live, progressive, and persistent. For example:
1. Character advancement system launched
2. Entire housing system launched.
3. Lot placement system launched.
4. Player owned town system launched.
5. Lot taxation system launched.
6. Half completed storyline system launched.
7. Crafting creation and advancement system launched.
8. Barely completed PvP system launched.
So what I suggest is what Portalarium had for its current thinking in March 2014 at the Duke/LOTM roundtable in Austin. At that time the current thinking of "Final wipe" would mean that the entire Storyline would be available and ready and character and crafting advancement system would be persistent. However, the entire Housing and Lot system would be available a couple months later. This would allow for all players to play through the story line and explore the world without worry about placing houses etc. Obviously, it would allow Port to ensure probably the most important selling point would be good and ready. You could probably point the GTAV / GTA Online as a bit of an example to this, so you could say the game is Launched on July 28th without playing word games by trying changing the language like what the word "is" is.
Well, now you're changing the argument, mate. Initially you accused me of "drinking the koolaid," to which I quite clearly demonstrated that I did no such thing. I've actually preached the evils of perpetual beta for quite some time.
I'm not trying to "spin" anything. A decade ago, MMOs and other games had very clear demarcations between "development" and "release." Yes, maintenance is part of the development life-cycle, but games once followed the same life cycle of any other software. That's not true anymore. You would never have released to the general public the horde of games like Space Engineers, H1Z1 (a major developer, btw), Mechwarrior Online, and tons of games now that allow persistent access in a state that is no where even remotely near complete.
So yeah, it's just a fact of the modern industry. It's not spin. Tons of developers are slapping the early access moniker on titles as get out of jail free cards, and you just can't use words like "beta" and "alpha" any more. Shroud has been "released" since they went Steam Early Access. They've just been using the pre-alpha banner to excuse periodic wipes.
There is no beta anymore. You either get to play a game, or you don't. When you do, what matters is the day they do their final wipe. Not what day they call "release."
Wow you are really drinking the kool aid if you are going to accept Portalarium Clinton'esque effort in trying to change the language of what pre-alpha, alpha, beta, open beta, release. There is no MMO in existence that is ever really done, so accepting and promoting Portalarium's spin on releasing a game in a pre-alpha state does no one any good service, including yourself. You gotta figure, even a couple weeks ago or sooner, you had Port reminding us that a game just reaching Alpha is when it is "feature complete" and that they were close to that point, and how we shouldn't judge the game in pre-alpha, yet on July 28th they will be not be feature complete yet will be "launched" in every way possible except for not using the actual language.
You of all people should not accept this kind of spin from any developer even if they are good guys, especially all those that took crowdfunding money. I have met them myself in Austin several times, they are good guys but even good guys make poor decisions. We should hold them to a proper standard and not accept this kind of spin doctoring.
Actually, I think it was MY attempt to change the language that may have crept into Starr's lexicon. A long time ago, I wrote an article for some other folks about what I called the "Cult of Perpetual Beta." That article came out several years ago, and I was blasting Mechwarrior Online at the time, I think. But plenty of other folks have done it. MWO, Neverwinter, and Crowfall is looking like it'll take advantage of the idea, as well. ...Firefall. Man, was Firefall bad about that. There are a boat load of smaller and indie projects out there that have been in "beta" for years. Is Minecraft even technically released yet?
So no, I'm not a fan of over-sweetened water in any form. Believe me, I call these guys out occasionally when I think they're wrong, and even make fun of them when they realize I was right all along, but this isn't one of those cases. I've been talking about the need to change how we talk about the development cycle in this industry for a very long time.
But you are correct that the Port guys have waved the "alpha" flag a few times, fairly or unfairly, and I doubt they'd have trouble admitting it. That's precisely why we need to look hard at these terms and realize their meanings have changed a bit, though. You can't be mislead by a term when you're looking beyond it to how it's being used. That's not me "spin doctoring," that's me trying to get folks to look beyond words and realize they don't really apply the same as they once did.
Whether it was your influence or theirs, I am glad you admit that there is an effort to control public perception of the game launching by changing the language. Hey, it could very well work and the game will be successful but I just don't think the general public is going to buy this kind of word play and game will suffer. I do want it do be successful.
Also, not sure why you keep repeating it but literally no online game, much less anything mmo related is ever "done" or "released" by the way your trying to spin it. Using that excuse explain why July 28th is not the launch of SotA simply doesn't work. Again, I doubt most people will buy it.
Lastly, if Portalarium really wants people to believe that July 28th is not the launch of the game, then they should not be launching every single major system as live, progressive, and persistent. For example:
1. Character advancement system launched
2. Entire housing system launched.
3. Lot placement system launched.
4. Player owned town system launched.
5. Lot taxation system launched.
6. Half completed storyline system launched.
7. Crafting creation and advancement system launched.
8. Barely completed PvP system launched.
So what I suggest is what Portalarium had for its current thinking in March 2014 at the Duke/LOTM roundtable in Austin. At that time the current thinking of "Final wipe" would mean that the entire Storyline would be available and ready and character and crafting advancement system would be persistent. However, the entire Housing and Lot system would be available a couple months later. This would allow for all players to play through the story line and explore the world without worry about placing houses etc. Obviously, it would allow Port to ensure probably the most important selling point would be good and ready. You could probably point the GTAV / GTA Online as a bit of an example to this, so you could say the game is Launched on July 28th without playing word games by trying changing the language like what the word "is" is.
Well, now you're changing the argument, mate. Initially you accused me of "drinking the koolaid," to which I quite clearly demonstrated that I did no such thing. I've actually preached the evils of perpetual beta for quite some time.
I'm not trying to "spin" anything. A decade ago, MMOs and other games had very clear demarcations between "development" and "release." Yes, maintenance is part of the development life-cycle, but games once followed the same life cycle of any other software. That's not true anymore. You would never have released to the general public the horde of games like Space Engineers, H1Z1 (a major developer, btw), Mechwarrior Online, and tons of games now that allow persistent access in a state that is no where even remotely near complete.
So yeah, it's just a fact of the modern industry. It's not spin. Tons of developers are slapping the early access moniker on titles as get out of jail free cards, and you just can't use words like "beta" and "alpha" any more. Shroud has been "released" since they went Steam Early Access. They've just been using the pre-alpha banner to excuse periodic wipes.
There is no beta anymore. You either get to play a game, or you don't. When you do, what matters is the day they do their final wipe. Not what day they call "release."
No change of subject at all. You admit that Portalarium is clearly trying to change the language of the launch of the game on July 28th. You admit, it might have been you that influenced them to try manipulate the language like that. So either you drank the koolaid, or you help make it yourself. Either way, by regurgitating Portalarium's attempt manipulate the language you are doing a great disservice to everyone out there who has or might spend their hard earned dollars on a game being launched in a pre-alpha state. This kind of activity is why we had so many horrible half made games lately, just as you identify. You are helping this kind of poor ethical behavior either by accident or on purpose and I encourage you to re-evaluate what you are doing if that matters to you at all.
Your point about the RPG aspect is well-taken. I hadn't really thought about it, but I'm not sure you could have ever really expected the single-player experience you're talking about. I need to go back and see if it was represented like that. They may have because the game actually started as an RPG for mobile devices (the overworld is sort of a hold over from that), and it's pretty possible that language from the original concept colored the early PC project.
The only single-player experience I'm talking about is to be the spiritual successor to the single-player Ultima games. Portalarium have continually marketed and clarified repeatedly that promise. I can point you to countless print and video interviews and forum postings by them that states this. There are several forum thread started by the devs about the single player game.
Having said that, they also promised the spiritual successor to Ultima Online, which I'm very excited about. But there in lies the problem...
The problem is that it's really an MMO, and a huge amount of effort goes into that piece.
...and what you just said points exactly at this problem. Your expectation is that it is an MMO. This is a very divisive topic in their community. There are many huge threads with this ongoing debate. I agree that a huge amount of effort does go into the MMO. But that does not mean there also isn't a huge amount of effort that needs to go into the RPG.
From their KS page: (They had to add this FAQ because it was so frequently asked)
Will this be a MMO? Can I play with my friends?
Yes, you will be able to play with your friends! Multiplayer games encourage social bonds that go far beyond what can be accomplished in a solo player game. I remember the depth of these bonds in players who met in-game only to get married in real life, how people who died in the real world were deeply mourned and celebrated by their online friends whom they may never have met face to face. Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game. We will be describing this in more detail in our upcoming community blogs.
From their About SotA page:
Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues is a new type of third person fantasy RPG that combines a single player narrative with a sandbox MMO.
From their FAQ:
Will this be an MMO?
Shroud of the Avatar is a new form of multiplayer online role playing game we are calling a Selective Multiplayer Game. This will allow players to choose how they want to play. Play options will include solo offline, solo online, friends only online, or open multiplayer online. For players who play in the default open multiplayer, Shroud of the Avatar will feel very much like a traditional MMO. However, Shroud of the Avatar also includes a full solo player story crafted by Richard Garriott and Tracy Hickman, best known for his best selling Dragon Lance series of books.
So while you can say it's an MMO all you want, you're only painting half the picture and it's a huge disservice to the wider gaming community to continue to do so. Granted, this is an MMORPG site, but you also cover single player RPGs and SotA should be represented not as one or the other, but as both. Merely calling it only an MMO is patently false as I just pointed out from SotA's own marketing material above.
You can't really expect a Witcher experience in the offline mode of an MMO. It's just that of the MMO part, there are pieces that there's no reason you can't do on your own. I know from early conversations with Richard that they really wanted an MMO that you could play bits of while offline. While traveling was the example used most often, and there was always mention of re-connecting at the end of it. Not to say it wasn't represented otherwise in some cases, but that's how it was in my conversations. That was my expectations.
Interesting. I'm going to think on that a bit and do some reading.
Anyone expecting a Witcher 3 level of experience is fooling themselves. But it's within reason to expect an Ultima 7 level of experience, as Richard (and others) have repeatedly said that's the baseline by which they're going to be measured with SotA as far as the single player experience goes.
And I'm very familiar with the origins of the game but you're only half right. The other side of the coin is that they've spinned this as a single player game with multiplayer capabilities. See my points above. so depending on who they talk to, they will spin it differently. Ultimately, they are promising both.
But w/r to openenss... Man, they have been super open. Seeing it from a media point of view, you have no idea how much gets hidden from the public in these things. Star Citizen being a current good example, love or hate them, they are most definitely not open. Shroud is massively open. You know when they hire, who they hire, and you get all the scrum notes. Scrum notes are a BIG deal.
I know there are some dissenting voices, but I'm very confident that they're a vocal minority. Polls like the one I mentioned in the article would not sit at 90% in favor if there were community problems. I don't think there's another game I've ever covered that could poll their community asking that question about offline content and get even a 50% approval for the move.
You know, we may disagree a bit on a couple points, but it's definitely not because you're stupid. Thanks for bothering to post. I have a great deal of appreciation for folks who help me find holes in my positions. I either change my mind, or come out of it having found a possible weak point and shored it up. Helps me really troll the crap out of the nutters. lol
I don't disagree with you regarding your experience with them. But your experience is not everyone's. I think they are quite open and transparent, much more so than other KS projects...but...YMMV. They are more open and transparent to some vs others. They've admitted as much too and this has caused some problems and rifts within their community. You have direct access to them, you visit them often in person and have interviewed them many times. So naturally you're going to feel that way. But as someone across the pond thousands of kilometers away, that openness and transparency can only go so far, especially when you're not a whale. And that's not a unique experience, it's a quite common one if you read more of their official forums.
I've been playing this game for a bit now. It's not bad. Still has some work to do and I supply my feedback to the forums in hopes they'll be seen.
It's not a prefect game, but it's playable and encouraging because as you play and then start to read the forums and keep up with the development, some of the things that make the game uncomfortable right now are things they have tagged.
Even in it's current state, I'd recommend this game. I've had fun with it.
There is no beta anymore. You either get to play a game, or you don't. When you do, what matters is the day they do their final wipe. Not what day they call "release."
And I think this is what I like the best. I read the email they sent me, had my moment of back assward 1998 economy thinking, then realized, hmm, this is actually a better way of doing it.
No change of subject at all. You admit that Portalarium is clearly trying to change the language of the launch of the game on July 28th. You admit, it might have been you that influenced them to try manipulate the language like that. So either you drank the koolaid, or you help make it yourself. Either way, by regurgitating Portalarium's attempt manipulate the language you are doing a great disservice to everyone out there who has or might spend their hard earned dollars on a game being launched in a pre-alpha state. This kind of activity is why we had so many horrible half made games lately, just as you identify. You are helping this kind of poor ethical behavior either by accident or on purpose and I encourage you to re-evaluate what you are doing if that matters to you at all.
No, _I_ am changing the language, not the developers. I'm saying those terms aren't worth using anymore because they've been neutered to the point of being meaningless. No developer wants to encourage a change in what those phrases mean because it'd be ridiculous. As long as people associate "beta" and "alpha" with periods of development when a game isn't formally released yet, then devs will get away with delivering a less polished experience to a crowd that's happy to pay for it.
Portalarium, like every other studio, would probably prefer I shut up about it. It's an industry conversation to have over drinks, it's not something they want folks openly discussing. Nothing I'm saying is even remotely helpful to any studio, you obviously are missing something here. It's like PR firms telling me X game isn't going to be pay-to-win... Of COURSE it's not going to be pay to win. There hasn't been a pay to win game made for a western audience... since maybe never. It's a phrase for idiots who like phrases, and don't bother to look any deeper to what is actually being said. Like beta, alpha, early access, and all the others, it's a waste of words.
If my suggesting people not apply worthless labels to games and instead understand what they're buying and what state of development they should expect rather than relying on randomly vague verbage is somehow part of a great industrial conspiracy to actually educate the consumer... well, I guess I'm guilty.
I don't disagree with you regarding your experience with them. But your experience is not everyone's. I think they are quite open and transparent, much more so than other KS projects...but...YMMV. They are more open and transparent to some vs others. They've admitted as much too and this has caused some problems and rifts within their community. You have direct access to them, you visit them often in person and have interviewed them many times. So naturally you're going to feel that way. But as someone across the pond thousands of kilometers away, that openness and transparency can only go so far, especially when you're not a whale. And that's not a unique experience, it's a quite common one if you read more of their official forums.
I'll take a look. I'm actually talking about what I see them disseminate to the community verses what I see behind the scenes. But yeah, there IS a difference between "whales" and average backers. That said, I think it's more timing than content. They pitch a lot of things to Dev+ that general community never sees, but anything that makes it through to the game gets pushed all the way out. I honestly think that's rather fair. Dev+ folks have more to lose, and they're the folks who are more likely to stick around longer. Plus, it IS a business...
But I'll take a look. You're obviously seeing something that I haven't really caught on to, legitimate or not. It's worth looking into, because if I've been misrepresenting things, I definitely want to fix that. Negativity sells, so I'm sure I'll be able to get someone to run the article if something comes of it.
No change of subject at all. You admit that Portalarium is clearly trying to change the language of the launch of the game on July 28th. You admit, it might have been you that influenced them to try manipulate the language like that. So either you drank the koolaid, or you help make it yourself. Either way, by regurgitating Portalarium's attempt manipulate the language you are doing a great disservice to everyone out there who has or might spend their hard earned dollars on a game being launched in a pre-alpha state. This kind of activity is why we had so many horrible half made games lately, just as you identify. You are helping this kind of poor ethical behavior either by accident or on purpose and I encourage you to re-evaluate what you are doing if that matters to you at all.
No, _I_ am changing the language, not the developers. I'm saying those terms aren't worth using anymore because they've been neutered to the point of being meaningless. No developer wants to encourage a change in what those phrases mean because it'd be ridiculous. As long as people associate "beta" and "alpha" with periods of development when a game isn't formally released yet, then devs will get away with delivering a less polished experience to a crowd that's happy to pay for it.
Portalarium, like every other studio, would probably prefer I shut up about it. It's an industry conversation to have over drinks, it's not something they want folks openly discussing. Nothing I'm saying is even remotely helpful to any studio, you obviously are missing something here. It's like PR firms telling me X game isn't going to be pay-to-win... Of COURSE it's not going to be pay to win. There hasn't been a pay to win game made for a western audience... since maybe never. It's a phrase for idiots who like phrases, and don't bother to look any deeper to what is actually being said. Like beta, alpha, early access, and all the others, it's a waste of words.
If my suggesting people not apply worthless labels to games and instead understand what they're buying and what state of development they should expect rather than relying on randomly vague verbage is somehow part of a great industrial conspiracy to actually educate the consumer... well, I guess I'm guilty.
Well you may be surprised that Portalarium is using the same Clinton'esque manipulation of language in regards to launching the game on July 28th. The game will be launched in all ways in a pre-alpha state that is not feature complete and yet will be Live, Live, Live. So as you admit, you are trying to manipulate the language to make it more acceptable for games being launched in a pre-alpha state and so is Portalarium with this announcement. It is one thing for you, Red, who has not taken money from anyone to try to spin things like that but it is another thing for a company who has taken hard earned crowdfunding money and trying to pull this nonsense . Trying to change the language only hurts the consumer in this manner.
By the way, the PR bit is amusing since their job is to spin and manipulate the language in slight ways which are usually harmless. However, when you get deep into trying to social engineer consumers like that because your product is being launched in a pre-alpha state, the line is being crossed into a bad territory.
I hope Portalarium changes course on this and rights this wrong. Also, it is worth noting that my earlier post does include ideas on how they could possibly do just that. If they want July 28th to just be regarded only as "final wipe" and "early access", then they should postpone the launch of some systems, such as the entire housing system, for when they actually launch. If they don't, then their poor ethical behavior needs to be made noted loudly and publicly.
Comments
The first bullet is a completely valid point, and that's a fair benchmark to measure their progress by. I'll say that from my own ears, I've heard the debates on how they stack work leading up to the final wipe, and what's fairest for the players. I know without doubt that the Port folks would not take issue with anyone feeling the game isn't released until they've delivered on all the KS promises. They probably could do better representing it, but that's the benchmark they use in their internal conversations. I've been around the office enough to see emails and hear un-sanitized conversations, so I'm not going completely off the media-version of things.
I don't think final wipe is going to impact that though. If you take a look at they stuff coming post wipe ( https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/final-wipe-and-lot-selection.44430/ ), I don't think any of it is really the sort of thing that would require a wipe when it's added. None of it will really dramatically alter player-power in any great way, and it all builds on existing systems. The only two reasons to wipe are to implement major system overhauls, or because some system is changing that would dramatically impact player-balances.
I'd say they're on track to meet all their backer promises, and I don't think they'll have much of a problem moving on towards the next episodes. As larger projects go, I think they've been incredibly open with the community about what's happening and why all through the process. They've built up a solid reputation for integrity and for being careful with backer money. I don't think you can ask for much more than that.
Oh, and btw. There ARE concepts of episodes. Episodes are the major land masses and associated stories that exist in them. The monthly release is just a development system that follows the Agile framework a bit more closely than most developers do. After they feel the current continent is in a complete state and they've delivered all their promises from KS, you'll probably see a short down period, and then they'll announce a campaign for a new continent or something. That's just a guess on my part, but I think a good one.
Actually, I think it was MY attempt to change the language that may have crept into Starr's lexicon. A long time ago, I wrote an article for some other folks about what I called the "Cult of Perpetual Beta." That article came out several years ago, and I was blasting Mechwarrior Online at the time, I think. But plenty of other folks have done it. MWO, Neverwinter, and Crowfall is looking like it'll take advantage of the idea, as well. ...Firefall. Man, was Firefall bad about that. There are a boat load of smaller and indie projects out there that have been in "beta" for years. Is Minecraft even technically released yet?
So no, I'm not a fan of over-sweetened water in any form. Believe me, I call these guys out occasionally when I think they're wrong, and even make fun of them when they realize I was right all along, but this isn't one of those cases. I've been talking about the need to change how we talk about the development cycle in this industry for a very long time.
But you are correct that the Port guys have waved the "alpha" flag a few times, fairly or unfairly, and I doubt they'd have trouble admitting it. That's precisely why we need to look hard at these terms and realize their meanings have changed a bit, though. You can't be mislead by a term when you're looking beyond it to how it's being used. That's not me "spin doctoring," that's me trying to get folks to look beyond words and realize they don't really apply the same as they once did.
Whether it was your influence or theirs, I am glad you admit that there is an effort to control public perception of the game launching by changing the language. Hey, it could very well work and the game will be successful but I just don't think the general public is going to buy this kind of word play and game will suffer. I do want it do be successful.
Also, not sure why you keep repeating it but literally no online game, much less anything mmo related is ever "done" or "released" by the way your trying to spin it. Using that excuse explain why July 28th is not the launch of SotA simply doesn't work. Again, I doubt most people will buy it.
Lastly, if Portalarium really wants people to believe that July 28th is not the launch of the game, then they should not be launching every single major system as live, progressive, and persistent. For example:
1. Character advancement system launched
2. Entire housing system launched.
3. Lot placement system launched.
4. Player owned town system launched.
5. Lot taxation system launched.
6. Half completed storyline system launched.
7. Crafting creation and advancement system launched.
8. Barely completed PvP system launched.
So what I suggest is what Portalarium had for its current thinking in March 2014 at the Duke/LOTM roundtable in Austin. At that time the current thinking of "Final wipe" would mean that the entire Storyline would be available and ready and character and crafting advancement system would be persistent. However, the entire Housing and Lot system would be available a couple months later. This would allow for all players to play through the story line and explore the world without worry about placing houses etc. Obviously, it would allow Port to ensure probably the most important selling point would be good and ready. You could probably point the GTAV / GTA Online as a bit of an example to this, so you could say the game is Launched on July 28th without playing word games by trying changing the language like what the word "is" is.
I think this statement is 100% true for the MMO crowd and 0% true for the single player RPG crowd. Look at the official forums and how this decision has divided its community. This decision was a complete slap in the face of every backer who was looking for the spiritual successor to the single player Ultima games.
Whatever goodwill they earned since the KS has eroded away over time as they favored building the MMO over the RPG.
I personally don't care as I want the next UO and don't think they can recapture the magic of the single player Ultima games given what they're building, or rather, not building. I have plenty of other great single player RPGs out there to fulfill that need.
Sorry, I think the kool-aid is talking again. Your opinion about them being open and having a solid rep for integrity is just that -- go visit their official forums or external ones and that statement is arguably not true for a large portion of their community. But I do agree that they've been very careful about how they spend back money. Just not everyone agrees with their priorities or decisions or, arguably, how open they actually are with their backers.
Yes, I'm familiar with each continent being the next "episode". But I only question how they plan on moving forward as far as uninterrupted content delivery goes once Episode 1 launches. Sure, it'll be monthly, but as there is no subscription, how will they "package" and sell Episode 2? Will they pull the same shady tactic of delivering an incomplete half-baked Episode 2 to future Ep2 backers and claim Episode 2 went "live" the very month after Ep1 "launched"? Given the fiasco happening now over this decision to favor the MMO crowd over the RPG one, I think they've pretty much defined who their future backers are anyways.
They've built a casual sandbox MMO, without the RPG currently, and certainly without the PvP. That's what they're going "live" with and declaring to the world that is what's important to them and the kind of game they want, and the kind of customers they want. They'd need a miracle to bring back the single player crowd, let alone the PvP crowd.
Your point about the RPG aspect is well-taken. I hadn't really thought about it, but I'm not sure you could have ever really expected the single-player experience you're talking about. I need to go back and see if it was represented like that. They may have because the game actually started as an RPG for mobile devices (the overworld is sort of a hold over from that), and it's pretty possible that language from the original concept colored the early PC project.
The problem is that it's really an MMO, and a huge amount of effort goes into that piece. You can't really expect a Witcher experience in the offline mode of an MMO. It's just that of the MMO part, there are pieces that there's no reason you can't do on your own. I know from early conversations with Richard that they really wanted an MMO that you could play bits of while offline. While traveling was the example used most often, and there was always mention of re-connecting at the end of it. Not to say it wasn't represented otherwise in some cases, but that's how it was in my conversations. That was my expectations.
Interesting. I'm going to think on that a bit and do some reading.
But w/r to openenss... Man, they have been super open. Seeing it from a media point of view, you have no idea how much gets hidden from the public in these things. Star Citizen being a current good example, love or hate them, they are most definitely not open. Shroud is massively open. You know when they hire, who they hire, and you get all the scrum notes. Scrum notes are a BIG deal.
I know there are some dissenting voices, but I'm very confident that they're a vocal minority. Polls like the one I mentioned in the article would not sit at 90% in favor if there were community problems. I don't think there's another game I've ever covered that could poll their community asking that question about offline content and get even a 50% approval for the move.
You know, we may disagree a bit on a couple points, but it's definitely not because you're stupid. Thanks for bothering to post. I have a great deal of appreciation for folks who help me find holes in my positions. I either change my mind, or come out of it having found a possible weak point and shored it up. Helps me really troll the crap out of the nutters. lol
Well, now you're changing the argument, mate. Initially you accused me of "drinking the koolaid," to which I quite clearly demonstrated that I did no such thing. I've actually preached the evils of perpetual beta for quite some time.
I'm not trying to "spin" anything. A decade ago, MMOs and other games had very clear demarcations between "development" and "release." Yes, maintenance is part of the development life-cycle, but games once followed the same life cycle of any other software. That's not true anymore. You would never have released to the general public the horde of games like Space Engineers, H1Z1 (a major developer, btw), Mechwarrior Online, and tons of games now that allow persistent access in a state that is no where even remotely near complete.
So yeah, it's just a fact of the modern industry. It's not spin. Tons of developers are slapping the early access moniker on titles as get out of jail free cards, and you just can't use words like "beta" and "alpha" any more. Shroud has been "released" since they went Steam Early Access. They've just been using the pre-alpha banner to excuse periodic wipes.
There is no beta anymore. You either get to play a game, or you don't. When you do, what matters is the day they do their final wipe. Not what day they call "release."
No change of subject at all. You admit that Portalarium is clearly trying to change the language of the launch of the game on July 28th. You admit, it might have been you that influenced them to try manipulate the language like that. So either you drank the koolaid, or you help make it yourself. Either way, by regurgitating Portalarium's attempt manipulate the language you are doing a great disservice to everyone out there who has or might spend their hard earned dollars on a game being launched in a pre-alpha state. This kind of activity is why we had so many horrible half made games lately, just as you identify. You are helping this kind of poor ethical behavior either by accident or on purpose and I encourage you to re-evaluate what you are doing if that matters to you at all.
Having said that, they also promised the spiritual successor to Ultima Online, which I'm very excited about. But there in lies the problem...
...and what you just said points exactly at this problem. Your expectation is that it is an MMO. This is a very divisive topic in their community. There are many huge threads with this ongoing debate. I agree that a huge amount of effort does go into the MMO. But that does not mean there also isn't a huge amount of effort that needs to go into the RPG.
From their KS page: (They had to add this FAQ because it was so frequently asked)
Will this be a MMO? Can I play with my friends?
Yes, you will be able to play with your friends! Multiplayer games encourage social bonds that go far beyond what can be accomplished in a solo player game. I remember the depth of these bonds in players who met in-game only to get married in real life, how people who died in the real world were deeply mourned and celebrated by their online friends whom they may never have met face to face. Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game. We will be describing this in more detail in our upcoming community blogs.
From their About SotA page:
Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues is a new type of third person fantasy RPG that combines a single player narrative with a sandbox MMO.
From their FAQ:
Will this be an MMO?
Shroud of the Avatar is a new form of multiplayer online role playing game we are calling a Selective Multiplayer Game. This will allow players to choose how they want to play. Play options will include solo offline, solo online, friends only online, or open multiplayer online. For players who play in the default open multiplayer, Shroud of the Avatar will feel very much like a traditional MMO. However, Shroud of the Avatar also includes a full solo player story crafted by Richard Garriott and Tracy Hickman, best known for his best selling Dragon Lance series of books.
So while you can say it's an MMO all you want, you're only painting half the picture and it's a huge disservice to the wider gaming community to continue to do so. Granted, this is an MMORPG site, but you also cover single player RPGs and SotA should be represented not as one or the other, but as both. Merely calling it only an MMO is patently false as I just pointed out from SotA's own marketing material above.
Anyone expecting a Witcher 3 level of experience is fooling themselves. But it's within reason to expect an Ultima 7 level of experience, as Richard (and others) have repeatedly said that's the baseline by which they're going to be measured with SotA as far as the single player experience goes.
And I'm very familiar with the origins of the game but you're only half right. The other side of the coin is that they've spinned this as a single player game with multiplayer capabilities. See my points above. so depending on who they talk to, they will spin it differently. Ultimately, they are promising both.
I don't disagree with you regarding your experience with them. But your experience is not everyone's. I think they are quite open and transparent, much more so than other KS projects...but...YMMV. They are more open and transparent to some vs others. They've admitted as much too and this has caused some problems and rifts within their community. You have direct access to them, you visit them often in person and have interviewed them many times. So naturally you're going to feel that way. But as someone across the pond thousands of kilometers away, that openness and transparency can only go so far, especially when you're not a whale. And that's not a unique experience, it's a quite common one if you read more of their official forums.
But this game growing , and growing start look interresing to me
It's not a prefect game, but it's playable and encouraging because as you play and then start to read the forums and keep up with the development, some of the things that make the game uncomfortable right now are things they have tagged.
Even in it's current state, I'd recommend this game. I've had fun with it.
And I think this is what I like the best. I read the email they sent me, had my moment of back assward 1998 economy thinking, then realized, hmm, this is actually a better way of doing it.
Portalarium, like every other studio, would probably prefer I shut up about it. It's an industry conversation to have over drinks, it's not something they want folks openly discussing. Nothing I'm saying is even remotely helpful to any studio, you obviously are missing something here. It's like PR firms telling me X game isn't going to be pay-to-win... Of COURSE it's not going to be pay to win. There hasn't been a pay to win game made for a western audience... since maybe never. It's a phrase for idiots who like phrases, and don't bother to look any deeper to what is actually being said. Like beta, alpha, early access, and all the others, it's a waste of words.
If my suggesting people not apply worthless labels to games and instead understand what they're buying and what state of development they should expect rather than relying on randomly vague verbage is somehow part of a great industrial conspiracy to actually educate the consumer... well, I guess I'm guilty.
But I'll take a look. You're obviously seeing something that I haven't really caught on to, legitimate or not. It's worth looking into, because if I've been misrepresenting things, I definitely want to fix that. Negativity sells, so I'm sure I'll be able to get someone to run the article if something comes of it.
Well you may be surprised that Portalarium is using the same Clinton'esque manipulation of language in regards to launching the game on July 28th. The game will be launched in all ways in a pre-alpha state that is not feature complete and yet will be Live, Live, Live. So as you admit, you are trying to manipulate the language to make it more acceptable for games being launched in a pre-alpha state and so is Portalarium with this announcement. It is one thing for you, Red, who has not taken money from anyone to try to spin things like that but it is another thing for a company who has taken hard earned crowdfunding money and trying to pull this nonsense . Trying to change the language only hurts the consumer in this manner.
By the way, the PR bit is amusing since their job is to spin and manipulate the language in slight ways which are usually harmless. However, when you get deep into trying to social engineer consumers like that because your product is being launched in a pre-alpha state, the line is being crossed into a bad territory.
I hope Portalarium changes course on this and rights this wrong. Also, it is worth noting that my earlier post does include ideas on how they could possibly do just that. If they want July 28th to just be regarded only as "final wipe" and "early access", then they should postpone the launch of some systems, such as the entire housing system, for when they actually launch. If they don't, then their poor ethical behavior needs to be made noted loudly and publicly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/shroudoftheavatar/comments/45luyp/banning_continues_to_hide_problems/
So that's why Red always gives SotA glowing reviews. Protecting his investment.
~~ postlarval ~~