I think there are several choices I'd pick. This survey I don't think really works well. Be better to ask how important are each of those items on a scale from 1-5.
A lot of these aren't mutually exclusive. That observation notwithstanding, the most important thing should be everyone knowing their job and doing it. I also like the idea of requiring knowledge of the game. I don't like too much emphasis on twitch skill (reflexes). That is better for esport style competitive games that are exclusive; not the inclusive social experience of an MMORPG. I don't think you should need above average reflexes to raid at the top end.
I want more horizontal progression rather than simply vertical level and item upgrades. However, some level and gear requirements for the most difficult raids in the game are inevitable. It is important to prevent turning raid progression into a linear gear check nevertheless.
This is something I do not like in games, the fact that 1 person can make a mistake and ruin it for everyone else. This leads to animosity among guild members, and the ostracizing of lesser skilled players from top guilds. Back in the days you used to get players in your guild not just because they were skilled, but because they could communicate well, or maybe they had a lot of playtime but not a lot of skill, and they enjoyed helping others out in the guild even if they weren't the greatest.
One person making a mistake and ruining the groups position is key to team work game play. If one persons mistake can not have such an effect, than that persons role is irrelevant and not needed. This is the point of team oriented play.
You can't have a group focused game and then say group participation and role doesn't matter. It just doesn't work (which is why MMOs today are for idiots pushing buttons).
The entire point of a game is for players to learn to excel in their play. In an RPG, this means developing a character and learning how to apply that role properly in a given group environment.
If this does not exist, if there is no means for failure, there is no point in success. At the end of the day, ones performance MUST be measured in such a venue or it is just a useless exercise of people pushing buttons with no meaning (aka mainstream games today).
My hope would be that level isn't so much a factor in defeating an encounter, but would be for the encounter to do anything meaningful for the players such as yield experience.or good level appropriate items. In other words attacking anything too high a level is pointless and attacking anything too low a level doesn't get you anything worthwhile.
Having knowledge and skill be different categories implies knowledge means you just have to know what to do, but you don't need much skill to carry it out, execution is trivial.
Teamwork is just a combination of knowledge and skill of the team working together so to me, it doesn't really seem like separate from knowledge or skill.
Everything else being equal (i.e. appropriate gear, level, etc.) I feel that teamwork and everyone playing their role well (for the encounter*) should be the biggest factor.
Obviously knowledge of, and experience with, the encounter will play a part, but I hate encounters at are all about remembering the dance steps. Basically if you have a good team of good players you should have a good chance of passing an encounter first time... which is not to say you won't make a few mistakes, but they shouldn't be fatal if managed well and learned from on the fly.
One thing I don't want to see is gear being the deciding factor, yes great gear should help, but it should not let you ignore mechanics, and DPS races should be lenient or organic (i.e. boss ramps up over time).
* While the typical encounter would be tank, heal, DPS and CC, some encounters may have additional mechanics (e.g. usable objects) or be more about avoiding damage than simply healing through it.
This is something I do not like in games, the fact that 1 person can make a mistake and ruin it for everyone else. This leads to animosity among guild members, and the ostracizing of lesser skilled players from top guilds. Back in the days you used to get players in your guild not just because they were skilled, but because they could communicate well, or maybe they had a lot of playtime but not a lot of skill, and they enjoyed helping others out in the guild even if they weren't the greatest.
One person making a mistake and ruining the groups position is key to team work game play. If one persons mistake can not have such an effect, than that persons role is irrelevant and not needed. This is the point of team oriented play.
You can't have a group focused game and then say group participation and role doesn't matter. It just doesn't work (which is why MMOs today are for idiots pushing buttons).
The entire point of a game is for players to learn to excel in their play. In an RPG, this means developing a character and learning how to apply that role properly in a given group environment.
If this does not exist, if there is no means for failure, there is no point in success. At the end of the day, ones performance MUST be measured in such a venue or it is just a useless exercise of people pushing buttons with no meaning (aka mainstream games today).
Congratulations on cherry picking something, knowing what the person meant, then purposely twisting what they said in an attempt to make them look bad.
Nowhere did I say that one persons mistake should not EFFECT the rest, i said that it should not entirely ruin an encounter. Like Archimonde in WoW, where if 1 person makes a mistake the entire raid wipes. This is ludicrous and I'm very disappointed in you if you think that 1 person should be able to ruin it for everyone.
This is something I do not like in games, the fact that 1 person can make a mistake and ruin it for everyone else. This leads to animosity among guild members, and the ostracizing of lesser skilled players from top guilds. Back in the days you used to get players in your guild not just because they were skilled, but because they could communicate well, or maybe they had a lot of playtime but not a lot of skill, and they enjoyed helping others out in the guild even if they weren't the greatest.
One person making a mistake and ruining the groups position is key to team work game play. If one persons mistake can not have such an effect, than that persons role is irrelevant and not needed. This is the point of team oriented play.
You can't have a group focused game and then say group participation and role doesn't matter. It just doesn't work (which is why MMOs today are for idiots pushing buttons).
The entire point of a game is for players to learn to excel in their play. In an RPG, this means developing a character and learning how to apply that role properly in a given group environment.
If this does not exist, if there is no means for failure, there is no point in success. At the end of the day, ones performance MUST be measured in such a venue or it is just a useless exercise of people pushing buttons with no meaning (aka mainstream games today).
Nowhere did I say that one persons mistake should not EFFECT the rest, i said that it should not entirely ruin an encounter. Like Archimonde in WoW, where if 1 person makes a mistake the entire raid wipes. This is ludicrous and I'm very disappointed in you if you think that 1 person should be able to ruin it for everyone.
Yes, I think that any single person making a mistake should wipe the raid. You did not specify how severe of a mistake, just that you didn't think one persons mistake should be able to wipe the raid.
In EQ, one persons mistake could wipe the raid. For instance, pull agro on the AoW mid enrage and it wipes out your entire raid force when he turns.
There were many encounters in EQ where a single error of significance by any player would result in the raid wipe. A raid should not be an event where a bunch of players are carried by a select few. A players lack of skill, inability to listen and follow orders SHOULD wipe a raid otherwise raiding just becomes a joke of less effort than that of group play.
I guess the example I used didn't really make it through, so I'll elaborate. Pulling aggro on AoW wasn't something that happened in a split second, it is something that is built up over time, I'm not against that wiping a raid. I am against something like Archimonde where the gimmick mechanic made it so if 1 player in your raid didn't react within a split second to a circle on the ground, your entire raid wiped, these are the retarded mechanics I was talking about.
Not saying bad players shouldn't be able to wipe raids, just that it shouldn't be so easy for a bad player to do so. Pulling aggro on AoW would never happen with a bad player in EQ, because bad players were shit at dps in the first place. It was generally a good player who made a slight error in judgement as to how many procs the tank had. If we want to remove all players except the elite from end-game raiding, I am against that. There were plenty of people in my EQ guilds who were not very good at the game, but could still be useful for buffing, healing, and porting.
I guess the example I used didn't really make it through, so I'll elaborate. Pulling aggro on AoW wasn't something that happened in a split second, it is something that is built up over time, I'm not against that wiping a raid. I am against something like Archimonde where the gimmick mechanic made it so if 1 player in your raid didn't react within a split second to a circle on the ground, your entire raid wiped, these are the retarded mechanics I was talking about.
Not saying bad players shouldn't be able to wipe raids, just that it shouldn't be so easy for a bad player to do so. Pulling aggro on AoW would never happen with a bad player in EQ, because bad players were shit at dps in the first place. It was generally a good player who made a slight error in judgement as to how many procs the tank had. If we want to remove all players except the elite from end-game raiding, I am against that. There were plenty of people in my EQ guilds who were not very good at the game, but could still be useful for buffing, healing, and porting.
Problem with WoW was that it was very twitch based, so that type of instant reaction play was always an issue. In EQ there were tasks where the players had to be timely (healing chains, intricate tank switches, etc...), but the arcade reflex type of play was not as prominent as it was in WoW.
I understand what you are saying, but I guess I never thought it was an issue. I knew of raid leaders who used to throw tantrums and act like imbeciles when they led raids, but I always thought it counter productive. I was blunt and to the point, but I was always fair and as long as someone was honestly trying (listening, paying attention, and following directions) I would take their errors in learning over a petulant child ringer who created drama any day. I have booted such types many times from raids in the past with little tolerance. I never minded the losses in learning, but I hated the asses who made issues out of it.
In a 40-70 man raid, requiring every person in the raid to be a key role is a disaster waiting to happen, but even EQ pushed that responsibility with groups at times. I think Pantheon will also push the limits and with only 12-24 man raids, I think it would be good if more responsibility is spread to the players. LoTRO had some very involved raids for much of the group. If you ever did The Rift, it was some of the most intricate raids I have seen, having even DPS doing more than just sitting dumbly pushing a button which naturally meant they had a much larger chance of wiping the raid.
Honestly, I have never met a player that was so bad that I could not get a successful function out of them. As I said, as long as they paid attention and made an honest effort, they would do fine, albeit with a share of some mistakes along the way.
In the end though, I would rather have raids where if someone isn't willing to take on such responsibility, they are unable to raid. A raid if designed right is to test the limits of group play entirely, not be a means to where players ride on the backs of others for easy rewards. There is nothing wrong with there being content that some do not complete because they didn't put the effort and have to wait or gain more power to finally complete it.
Think of it like Plane of Sky. Some could do certain mobs pre-Kunark while others had to wait post Kunark and beyond to be able to handle it. I don't see anything wrong with such, in fact... I think EQ was superior in this design as even if a guild had to wait for some more levels/gear/skills from a new expansion to do older raid content, the items that came from that raid were still valuable.
I just realized I was talking about raids. As it concerns "group" based play, I think everyone should be put to the test, stressed to their responsibility. There should be few cases where one or more people in a 6 man group can skate along. All should be pushed or they should cause the group to fail. This was key in EQ and why people demanded others learn their class. You couldn't get groups if you had a reputation of being a poor player.
All of them are important, but to me, gear is the most of all. Gear is achieved by a combination of time devoted and skill, which should be the 2 most important factors in progression. Of course, getting gear, as well as skill, requires all of the other choices.
I definitely don't think levels should determine as much as they have in the past. I think gear should be as important as levels. I think a level 20 in good gear should be stronger than a level 30 in junk. Making gear more important is actually crucial to thwarting the rush to end game mentality that plagues the MMO. Until people become unable to continue progressing until they've acquired better gear, people will continue ignoring the game itself, and the people playing it in order to reach the end.
In fact, gear (acquired by time and co-op play), is the only way to prevent good players from tearing through all content. Its also the only thing that promotes players actually experience the world. If skill or levels are the most important, a player could sit in just a few areas and power straight to the end. However, if gear is more important, your levels and your ability to gain knowledge and experience are all governed by what you've achieved (gear).
Skill should be rewarded, but when designing a long-term massively Multiplayer game, requiring things that take time and cooperative play is an absolute must.
I second this. Especially the bolded part is what's wrong in modern MMOs and what makes them such run-throughs as they are.
All of them are important, but to me, gear is the most of all. Gear is achieved by a combination of time devoted and skill, which should be the 2 most important factors in progression. Of course, getting gear, as well as skill, requires all of the other choices.
I definitely don't think levels should determine as much as they have in the past. I think gear should be as important as levels. I think a level 20 in good gear should be stronger than a level 30 in junk. Making gear more important is actually crucial to thwarting the rush to end game mentality that plagues the MMO. Until people become unable to continue progressing until they've acquired better gear, people will continue ignoring the game itself, and the people playing it in order to reach the end.
In fact, gear (acquired by time and co-op play), is the only way to prevent good players from tearing through all content. Its also the only thing that promotes players actually experience the world. If skill or levels are the most important, a player could sit in just a few areas and power straight to the end. However, if gear is more important, your levels and your ability to gain knowledge and experience are all governed by what you've achieved (gear).
Skill should be rewarded, but when designing a long-term massively Multiplayer game, requiring things that take time and cooperative play is an absolute must.
I second this. Especially the bolded part is what's wrong in modern MMOs and what makes them such run-throughs as they are.
Its encouraging to know at least one person understands this besides me. While making gear more important doesn't solve all of the woes of the modern MMORPG, I sincerely believe it can make a difference in a game that focuses on teamwork rather than soloing.
I don't want to see twitch skills as a primary factor in group content, I prefer the thinking man's game.
Build is a lousy mechanic - within a couple weeks after launch, optimal builds will be found and any deviation will turn the player into an outcast.
A knowledgeable and experienced group with good gear should be able to make non-standard groups work. Everquest had kite groups, pet groups, shamans that could CC or tank, etc...
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
My fear is that they'll follow the route of other "hard" encounters and make it so I'm just watching for some random thing to pop up over and over. As long as I counter that one random thing (or things) it's just as easy as anything else.
Comments
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Ethion
I want more horizontal progression rather than simply vertical level and item upgrades. However, some level and gear requirements for the most difficult raids in the game are inevitable. It is important to prevent turning raid progression into a linear gear check nevertheless.
You can't have a group focused game and then say group participation and role doesn't matter. It just doesn't work (which is why MMOs today are for idiots pushing buttons).
The entire point of a game is for players to learn to excel in their play. In an RPG, this means developing a character and learning how to apply that role properly in a given group environment.
If this does not exist, if there is no means for failure, there is no point in success. At the end of the day, ones performance MUST be measured in such a venue or it is just a useless exercise of people pushing buttons with no meaning (aka mainstream games today).
Having knowledge and skill be different categories implies knowledge means you just have to know what to do, but you don't need much skill to carry it out, execution is trivial.
Teamwork is just a combination of knowledge and skill of the team working together so to me, it doesn't really seem like separate from knowledge or skill.
So to me it all comes down to skill.
This amplifies skill and teamwork importance.
Obviously knowledge of, and experience with, the encounter will play a part, but I hate encounters at are all about remembering the dance steps. Basically if you have a good team of good players you should have a good chance of passing an encounter first time... which is not to say you won't make a few mistakes, but they shouldn't be fatal if managed well and learned from on the fly.
One thing I don't want to see is gear being the deciding factor, yes great gear should help, but it should not let you ignore mechanics, and DPS races should be lenient or organic (i.e. boss ramps up over time).
* While the typical encounter would be tank, heal, DPS and CC, some encounters may have additional mechanics (e.g. usable objects) or be more about avoiding damage than simply healing through it.
Nowhere did I say that one persons mistake should not EFFECT the rest, i said that it should not entirely ruin an encounter. Like Archimonde in WoW, where if 1 person makes a mistake the entire raid wipes. This is ludicrous and I'm very disappointed in you if you think that 1 person should be able to ruin it for everyone.
Except for WoW's LFR encounters that is..
In EQ, one persons mistake could wipe the raid. For instance, pull agro on the AoW mid enrage and it wipes out your entire raid force when he turns.
There were many encounters in EQ where a single error of significance by any player would result in the raid wipe. A raid should not be an event where a bunch of players are carried by a select few. A players lack of skill, inability to listen and follow orders SHOULD wipe a raid otherwise raiding just becomes a joke of less effort than that of group play.
Not saying bad players shouldn't be able to wipe raids, just that it shouldn't be so easy for a bad player to do so. Pulling aggro on AoW would never happen with a bad player in EQ, because bad players were shit at dps in the first place. It was generally a good player who made a slight error in judgement as to how many procs the tank had. If we want to remove all players except the elite from end-game raiding, I am against that. There were plenty of people in my EQ guilds who were not very good at the game, but could still be useful for buffing, healing, and porting.
I understand what you are saying, but I guess I never thought it was an issue. I knew of raid leaders who used to throw tantrums and act like imbeciles when they led raids, but I always thought it counter productive. I was blunt and to the point, but I was always fair and as long as someone was honestly trying (listening, paying attention, and following directions) I would take their errors in learning over a petulant child ringer who created drama any day. I have booted such types many times from raids in the past with little tolerance. I never minded the losses in learning, but I hated the asses who made issues out of it.
In a 40-70 man raid, requiring every person in the raid to be a key role is a disaster waiting to happen, but even EQ pushed that responsibility with groups at times. I think Pantheon will also push the limits and with only 12-24 man raids, I think it would be good if more responsibility is spread to the players. LoTRO had some very involved raids for much of the group. If you ever did The Rift, it was some of the most intricate raids I have seen, having even DPS doing more than just sitting dumbly pushing a button which naturally meant they had a much larger chance of wiping the raid.
Honestly, I have never met a player that was so bad that I could not get a successful function out of them. As I said, as long as they paid attention and made an honest effort, they would do fine, albeit with a share of some mistakes along the way.
In the end though, I would rather have raids where if someone isn't willing to take on such responsibility, they are unable to raid. A raid if designed right is to test the limits of group play entirely, not be a means to where players ride on the backs of others for easy rewards. There is nothing wrong with there being content that some do not complete because they didn't put the effort and have to wait or gain more power to finally complete it.
Think of it like Plane of Sky. Some could do certain mobs pre-Kunark while others had to wait post Kunark and beyond to be able to handle it. I don't see anything wrong with such, in fact... I think EQ was superior in this design as even if a guild had to wait for some more levels/gear/skills from a new expansion to do older raid content, the items that came from that raid were still valuable.
I just realized I was talking about raids. As it concerns "group" based play, I think everyone should be put to the test, stressed to their responsibility. There should be few cases where one or more people in a 6 man group can skate along. All should be pushed or they should cause the group to fail. This was key in EQ and why people demanded others learn their class. You couldn't get groups if you had a reputation of being a poor player.
You can be the level needed, have the knowledge and the skill, but if your teamwork is not up to par then you will fail.....
But this knowledge could and should also be gained from talking to npcs and reading books etc. in the game world.
Leaving level, which should be setting the bar for the content you are facing, aside.
Teamwork > Knowledge > Experience > Gear > Skill > Group Composition > Build
I don't want to see twitch skills as a primary factor in group content, I prefer the thinking man's game.
Build is a lousy mechanic - within a couple weeks after launch, optimal builds will be found and any deviation will turn the player into an outcast.
A knowledgeable and experienced group with good gear should be able to make non-standard groups work. Everquest had kite groups, pet groups, shamans that could CC or tank, etc...
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
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