". Creating the same class, but a different gender, takes almost the same amount of resources as creating a completely new class.
This guy can`t be serious. Skill codes are done. Special effects are done. Models for clothes are done. Gender-lock is BS and should be dead in nowdays MMO's.
". Creating the same class, but a different gender, takes almost the same amount of resources as creating a completely new class.
This guy can`t be serious. Skill codes are done. Special effects are done. Models for clothes are done. Gender-lock is BS and should be dead in nowdays MMO's.
Are you a developer/Digital artist or animator?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
". Creating the same class, but a different gender, takes almost the same amount of resources as creating a completely new class.
This guy can`t be serious. Skill codes are done. Special effects are done. Models for clothes are done. Gender-lock is BS and should be dead in nowdays MMO's.
Are you a developer/Digital artist or animator?
I will add a +1 to your question.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Gender lock is supposed to add more identity to a class. Almost like they/you are you're own main character of a story.
I've said it before but games like Tomb Raider, and Witcher series are gender locked. Nobody complains because it is a specific character, but that is sort of how Asia see the classes in their games.
This has nothing to do with resources or laziness.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
So, there won't be any interesting races like Aman(Tera) / Argonian / etc coming...? Just your typical ones?
Doesn't bother me. I rarely ever play any of the "novelty" races. And when I do, I generally lose interest in them pretty quickly.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
". Creating the same class, but a different gender, takes almost the same amount of resources as creating a completely new class.
This guy can`t be serious. Skill codes are done. Special effects are done. Models for clothes are done. Gender-lock is BS and should be dead in nowdays MMO's.
Are you a developer/Digital artist or animator?
I will add a +1 to your question.
I thought everyone on this site was! O.O
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I think many ...MOST misunderstand the truth behind gender locking.
Now of course i am not a mind reader but i would bet 99% of the time the ONLY reason behind it is to save time and money on production costs.People seem to think they are doing because the yWANT to lock a gender or that they really care about gender locking,it is all a money saving reason.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
While gender locking makes sense in some of the classes, what the heck were they thinking with the archer? That completely blows their arguments out the window.
As for the nonsense that it takes almost as much time to make a new class than to change the sex, that is completely bonkers. None of the engines I have worked with have anything close to that issue.
Just an example of what poor developers they are, the only thing they are good at is graphics.
Very few players care about story lines in MMO's. Most players just fast click through the entire dialogue for each quest in attempt to hurry to max level and pvp/see end game content. So making classes that fit a certain story line as their focus is waste of time/energy/resources. Shouldnt be too hard to use the genders already in place to allow for choice of gender for each class. It seems they dont really listen to the playerbase and try to make a game we can all love, they are so fixed on their work they are too stubborn to change and give the US market what they need and want.
The few players who are for playing opposite sex on these forums are probably all "cross-dressers" in real life anyhow.
Gender lock is supposed to add more identity to a class. Almost like they/you are you're own main character of a story.
I've said it before but games like Tomb Raider, and Witcher series are gender locked. Nobody complains because it is a specific character, but that is sort of how Asia see the classes in their games.
This has nothing to do with resources or laziness.
This is an absurd argument in an MMO.
In The Witcher and Tomb Raider you are also playing a single player game in which the character you are playing is that character and there are no other Geralt's or Lara's running around in the world.
If Asia wants to make a game where there are thousands of Geralt's all running around at the same time, then that's their prerogative. It's also my prerogative to say "That's stupid and boring" and not give them my money.
It's not like there's a lack of games on the market, so having such an easily re-mediated design decision and then being incredibly inflexible about it, is just hard headed and idiotic. "Hey gais, all of these other dozens of MMO's will let you make the character that you want to make, but we're gonna take an inflexible step back two decades and gender lock your character!"
When games should be evolving to offer more and more choices, this one is holding it's toys tightly to it's chest like a bratty 12 year old and screaming "No no! I want it myyyy way! If you don't like it, you can leave!" OK, kid, no problem. I'll be back when you grow the fuck up.
Gender-locking should have stayed in the 90s where it belongs.
It's a little misleading in this case, as classes have planned counterparts
It still leaves a bitter taste. One version is going to be inevitably better than the other - as is the case with any two mechanically different things.
In Blade and Soul, for example, the Lyn race has an exclusive Blade Dancer variation on the Blade Master. The Blade Master is one of (if not the) worst classes in the current NA version of the game. The Blade Dancer is one of the best classes.
So, to play the more fun, superior version of this class, I have to pick a race that I despise. How is that mechanically good?
Uhh that's a horrid compassion as they aren't nearly the same class at all and it depends what you are referring to. PVP yes PVE so so argument there blade master can be somewhat more defensive and take more abuse while blade dancer dishes out more damage and knock downs.
There is always going to be a whine that one is better blah blah blah blah. There is lore behind the races/character etc and all that too..
Gender lock is supposed to add more identity to a class. Almost like they/you are you're own main character of a story.
I've said it before but games like Tomb Raider, and Witcher series are gender locked. Nobody complains because it is a specific character, but that is sort of how Asia see the classes in their games.
This has nothing to do with resources or laziness.
Except that's idiotic.
All gender-locking does is create a case of Vindictus-syndrome, in which you are playing the character that the developers want you to play instead of the character that you want to play. That is the very antithesis of an MMO, in which you are supposed to bring your own ideas to the table and integrate them into a larger world, as opposed to having not only your story, but also your very identity regurgitated to you at character select.
Character RPG's like the Witcher are fantastic, but they aren't massively multiplayer experiences for a reason.
Pearl's argument that copying an existing class to add the other sex would take almost as much time as creating a whole new class doesn't make any sense to me. What sort of screwed up system do they have where that would be such an internal mess? With the other sex, it's not like they would have to worry about adjusting for class balancing or anything.
Art work, animation, fitting armor, all of that comes into play. No class has a stock animation set like most mmorpgs do in black desert online. They take a lot of care in what they are doing and it would take the same amount of work to make the same race as a diff gender as it would to make a whole new class...
That is the very antithesis of an MMO, in which you are supposed to bring your own ideas to the table and integrate them into a larger world, as opposed to having not only your story, but also your very identity regurgitated to you at character select.
But, to play devil's advocate, is it?
This is an Asian mmo so "maybe" that isn't how they look at their characters.
For instance, if you ask some people about gender lock they will say "I don't play a girl because I'm a guy".
Clearly they see themselves in the character. But not everyone does see themselves as their character. And maybe in Asian mmo's it's about "playing another character" over playing "you".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
i am not a fan of gender locking characters, i am definitely not a fan of body type locking, if you want to be a wizard you are going to be old and wrinkled, and flabby,i am just not down for that
That is the very antithesis of an MMO, in which you are supposed to bring your own ideas to the table and integrate them into a larger world, as opposed to having not only your story, but also your very identity regurgitated to you at character select.
But, to play devil's advocate, is it?
This is an Asian mmo so "maybe" that isn't how they look at their characters.
For instance, if you ask some people about gender lock they will say "I don't play a girl because I'm a guy".
Clearly they see themselves in the character. But not everyone does see themselves as their character. And maybe in Asian mmo's it's about "playing another character" over playing "you".
If it were that simple. Ultimately, it's not even a matter of playing "you" versus "them." It's a matter of playing "who you want to play" versus "who you can play." It narrows the roleplaying field in a genre that does not provide a compelling enough personal or global narrative to justify it. And that really is the operative failing of these perspectives. Locked characters are the general rule for single player RPG's because they have (or at least attempt to have) the writing chops to create a character worth playing as.
And that isn't even accounting for the fact that the very nature of mass-scale play makes set characters not only impractical, but outright contradictory to the situation. How many identical brawlers with identical backstories, all based on the character template of "Karok" can possibly fit into one universe?
While gender locking makes sense in some of the classes, what the heck were they thinking with the archer? That completely blows their arguments out the window.
As for the nonsense that it takes almost as much time to make a new class than to change the sex, that is completely bonkers. None of the engines I have worked with have anything close to that issue.
Just an example of what poor developers they are, the only thing they are good at is graphics.
Working in an engine where you are probably not making clothing based off a polygonal object sitting on top of the character and having to essentially design a new clothing set entirely around it as well. The armors you pick up etc vary by class just because every class can wear them doesn't mean they are visually the same (they are for some but not all). Let's use the warrior as a for instance here, for them to make a female gender version of that class/race they have no armor sets made visually beyond the scope of some pieces that may look the same (don't typically). Take into account the actual visual aesthetic applied to each class then too. The tamer for instance is human but with a different figure than the Valkyrie, sorceress, or witch who all have different body frames.
From a development standpoint each class even in the same race would be the equivalent of an entirely NEW character in a typical game. This isn't just "ohh hey new skills + animation set for skills and armor using the same body type" approach that they are doing. You are calling them bad developers because they are putting care into design each class, appearance for each class etc essentially instead of taking broad stroke type bull shit that most mmorpgs do where everyone sorta looks the same if the same race. It is rather easy to make dumpy looking models and apply armor that is way to big for their body frames on top of texture based armor than it is to create 3d model based armor that has to flex and move.
It takes almost the same resources as you cannot just reuse the male animations for the female in the case of proper movement armor fittings etc. You have probably tinkered as a hobbyist with a game engine and have no real idea of any real workflows involved beyond what you "think" they are.
They also have all those clothing options,skin showing and all, so having to redo them must be a lot work which is probably why they are keeping the gender lock in place. My husband think the game looks great or should I say the female models in their clothes.
This game is going to have the same traction and longevity in the NA as ArchAge. It has plenty of things to like, but it has just as many problems. Give it a few months and it will be in the same place as ArchAge.
The only time I feel genderlocking is alright is if the game has a very heavy emphasis on story and each "class" is also a character. So you go in knowing that you're not playing as "yourself", you're playing a character's story like you would most other RPGs. Dragon Nest comes to mind pretty quickly. Not the best story in the world, but it was quirky and it let them give each "class" a distinct look and personality that was honestly fun to read between grind sessions.
In BDO though, it's clearly just a time and production cost saver. That's it. If you're going to make counterparts that aren't going to be that different from the original classes for the other gender, why wouldn't you just make the class available for both to begin with and expand on that one class to make it more interesting? Quality over quantity.
Really wish more games would try FF14's route and get rid of the idea of race-specific and gender-locked classes. Managing alts just isn't fun. Neither is having to make a bunch of test characters just to see which class is most fun to you. Never understood alt-oholics.
This looks like a great game; the kind I've been looking for in many ways. Great combat and a sandbox-style MMOG. I bought it and will be giving it a serious effort - despite the fact that I'm heavy into Blade & Soul right now.
That said, the statement that it takes almost as much effort to make a different gender from the same class as it does an entire new class makes me wonder about any PvP aspects of the game. PvP isn't a big deal to me - in fact I don't care for it in MMOGs in general because so much developer time has to be spent on "class balance" - but it matters to a lot of people and it takes a lot more effort to design and maintain a new class and keep it balanced with other classes than it does to create another gender in the same class. Art-wise, sure, not a whole lot of difference, but design-wise, I don't buy it.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
I'm amazed at the number of people who think they are developers in this thread. They said it takes almost as much time to do a second gender as a new class the key words being almost and time, not lines of code or ideas but time. Yes you do not have to rewrite the skills or balance them but anyone who has ever worked on any game project, whether it be indi, small project or even serious personal knows that writing game logic takes the least amount of time of all your tasks. Animations, art and engine level operations are what take the majority of your time, not basic logical action, that without even getting into how different armor looks between males and females of the same class in most games. If you have spent anytime in this game and seen the complexity and fluidity of the animations you could well understand why it would that task alone would take up most of the time of development.
Also note that the one class where the male and female wear very similar armor and thus can follow similar animation paths is the wizard and they did release a female version of this class, the witch, at the same time as the wizard, all the other male/female classes (Warrior/Valkyrie, Plum/Blader) have different animations, skills and armor.
This game is going to have the same traction and longevity in the NA as ArchAge. It has plenty of things to like, but it has just as many problems. Give it a few months and it will be in the same place as ArchAge.
Nuh uh, this time it's different. This time it actually is the best game ever! And a breath of fresh air! Hooray for best game!
Comments
This guy can`t be serious. Skill codes are done. Special effects are done. Models for clothes are done. Gender-lock is BS and should be dead in nowdays MMO's.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I've said it before but games like Tomb Raider, and Witcher series are gender locked. Nobody complains because it is a specific character, but that is sort of how Asia see the classes in their games.
This has nothing to do with resources or laziness.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
And when I do, I generally lose interest in them pretty quickly.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Now of course i am not a mind reader but i would bet 99% of the time the ONLY reason behind it is to save time and money on production costs.People seem to think they are doing because the yWANT to lock a gender or that they really care about gender locking,it is all a money saving reason.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As for the nonsense that it takes almost as much time to make a new class than to change the sex, that is completely bonkers. None of the engines I have worked with have anything close to that issue.
Just an example of what poor developers they are, the only thing they are good at is graphics.
The few players who are for playing opposite sex on these forums are probably all "cross-dressers" in real life anyhow.
In The Witcher and Tomb Raider you are also playing a single player game in which the character you are playing is that character and there are no other Geralt's or Lara's running around in the world.
If Asia wants to make a game where there are thousands of Geralt's all running around at the same time, then that's their prerogative. It's also my prerogative to say "That's stupid and boring" and not give them my money.
It's not like there's a lack of games on the market, so having such an easily re-mediated design decision and then being incredibly inflexible about it, is just hard headed and idiotic. "Hey gais, all of these other dozens of MMO's will let you make the character that you want to make, but we're gonna take an inflexible step back two decades and gender lock your character!"
When games should be evolving to offer more and more choices, this one is holding it's toys tightly to it's chest like a bratty 12 year old and screaming "No no! I want it myyyy way! If you don't like it, you can leave!" OK, kid, no problem. I'll be back when you grow the fuck up.
There is always going to be a whine that one is better blah blah blah blah. There is lore behind the races/character etc and all that too..
All gender-locking does is create a case of Vindictus-syndrome, in which you are playing the character that the developers want you to play instead of the character that you want to play. That is the very antithesis of an MMO, in which you are supposed to bring your own ideas to the table and integrate them into a larger world, as opposed to having not only your story, but also your very identity regurgitated to you at character select.
Character RPG's like the Witcher are fantastic, but they aren't massively multiplayer experiences for a reason.
Art work, animation, fitting armor, all of that comes into play. No class has a stock animation set like most mmorpgs do in black desert online. They take a lot of care in what they are doing and it would take the same amount of work to make the same race as a diff gender as it would to make a whole new class...
This is an Asian mmo so "maybe" that isn't how they look at their characters.
For instance, if you ask some people about gender lock they will say "I don't play a girl because I'm a guy".
Clearly they see themselves in the character. But not everyone does see themselves as their character. And maybe in Asian mmo's it's about "playing another character" over playing "you".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And that isn't even accounting for the fact that the very nature of mass-scale play makes set characters not only impractical, but outright contradictory to the situation. How many identical brawlers with identical backstories, all based on the character template of "Karok" can possibly fit into one universe?
From a development standpoint each class even in the same race would be the equivalent of an entirely NEW character in a typical game. This isn't just "ohh hey new skills + animation set for skills and armor using the same body type" approach that they are doing. You are calling them bad developers because they are putting care into design each class, appearance for each class etc essentially instead of taking broad stroke type bull shit that most mmorpgs do where everyone sorta looks the same if the same race. It is rather easy to make dumpy looking models and apply armor that is way to big for their body frames on top of texture based armor than it is to create 3d model based armor that has to flex and move.
It takes almost the same resources as you cannot just reuse the male animations for the female in the case of proper movement armor fittings etc. You have probably tinkered as a hobbyist with a game engine and have no real idea of any real workflows involved beyond what you "think" they are.
"We might however provide a counterpart that offers a similar look and feel such as Valkyrie vs. Warrior with slight adjustments to fit its nature."
Where does it say they have planned counterparts? Seems they aren't sure if they want to go that route or not.
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In BDO though, it's clearly just a time and production cost saver. That's it. If you're going to make counterparts that aren't going to be that different from the original classes for the other gender, why wouldn't you just make the class available for both to begin with and expand on that one class to make it more interesting? Quality over quantity.
Really wish more games would try FF14's route and get rid of the idea of race-specific and gender-locked classes. Managing alts just isn't fun. Neither is having to make a bunch of test characters just to see which class is most fun to you. Never understood alt-oholics.
That said, the statement that it takes almost as much effort to make a different gender from the same class as it does an entire new class makes me wonder about any PvP aspects of the game. PvP isn't a big deal to me - in fact I don't care for it in MMOGs in general because so much developer time has to be spent on "class balance" - but it matters to a lot of people and it takes a lot more effort to design and maintain a new class and keep it balanced with other classes than it does to create another gender in the same class. Art-wise, sure, not a whole lot of difference, but design-wise, I don't buy it.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
Also note that the one class where the male and female wear very similar armor and thus can follow similar animation paths is the wizard and they did release a female version of this class, the witch, at the same time as the wizard, all the other male/female classes (Warrior/Valkyrie, Plum/Blader) have different animations, skills and armor.
Nuh uh, this time it's different. This time it actually is the best game ever! And a breath of fresh air!
Hooray for best game!
Philosophy of MMO Game Design