I pity people who refuse to play characters of the opposite sex. Your loss.
When you think of it, many players spend most of their time trying to find reasons to not play a game, ranging from gender-locking, can't relate to a ship, has classes, has levels, has "forced PVP", has auto-pathing, doesn't allow them to jump, etc.
The list is endless and any one of them apparently is justification for throwing the entire game out the window, heck I've seen posts where people won't play games without reverse mouse look.
How about this folks, learn to play and master the game as it's presented by the developers, despite the hardships, your personal preferences, the UI, idiosyncrasies, etc.
You don't have time to spend on every single game out there. You have to narrow them down somehow. If you throw out games for not checking certain boxes for you, but still have plenty of games that you're willing to play, that's perfectly reasonable. It only becomes unreasonable when it leads to whining that there's nothing to play.
There are a number of characteristics that will lead me to avoid a game. Gender-locked classes aren't one of them for me. But requiring heavy mouse usage to play the game is, and that's something that most gamers on this site probably wouldn't even consider a negative point on a game, let alone something to rule it out completely.
When I re-read my original response I think I may not have been clear enough.
@ DEVS Please ignore the whining of the other posters. I want a return to great games that had distinction between races and classes. Please make more gender and race locked games.
If people will listen to people like you they will make less money in already harsh MMO industry ....keep ur genial marketing ideas to your self ^^ Also dev dont care as result I will never buy BDO which is a good think
I pity people who refuse to play characters of the opposite sex. Your loss.
When you think of it, many players spend most of their time trying to find reasons to not play a game, ranging from gender-locking, can't relate to a ship, has classes, has levels, has "forced PVP", has auto-pathing, doesn't allow them to jump, etc.
The list is endless and any one of them apparently is justification for throwing the entire game out the window, heck I've seen posts where people won't play games without reverse mouse look.
How about this folks, learn to play and master the game as it's presented by the developers, despite the hardships, your personal preferences, the UI, idiosyncrasies, etc.
You don't have time to spend on every single game out there. You have to narrow them down somehow. If you throw out games for not checking certain boxes for you, but still have plenty of games that you're willing to play, that's perfectly reasonable. It only becomes unreasonable when it leads to whining that there's nothing to play.
There are a number of characteristics that will lead me to avoid a game. Gender-locked classes aren't one of them for me. But requiring heavy mouse usage to play the game is, and that's something that most gamers on this site probably wouldn't even consider a negative point on a game, let alone something to rule it out completely.
If you're referring to BDO, I'd like to clarify that you aren't forced to use the mouse heavily, even if you use the mouse instead of the hotbar; it's not a click fest, it's more controlled than that.
But you also have the option to use the hotbar like a traditional MMO. Just slot the skills you want and do your 1-4 or whatever rotation like you would in other games.
If there's a good, in-lore reason for race and / or gender based class locking, then I don't mind it. If it's just thrown in arbitrarily or done to conform to some kind of real life gender role expectation, then it needs to die horribly.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
I pity people who refuse to play characters of the opposite sex. Your loss.
When you think of it, many players spend most of their time trying to find reasons to not play a game, ranging from gender-locking, can't relate to a ship, has classes, has levels, has "forced PVP", has auto-pathing, doesn't allow them to jump, etc.
The list is endless and any one of them apparently is justification for throwing the entire game out the window, heck I've seen posts where people won't play games without reverse mouse look.
How about this folks, learn to play and master the game as it's presented by the developers, despite the hardships, your personal preferences, the UI, idiosyncrasies, etc.
You don't have time to spend on every single game out there. You have to narrow them down somehow. If you throw out games for not checking certain boxes for you, but still have plenty of games that you're willing to play, that's perfectly reasonable. It only becomes unreasonable when it leads to whining that there's nothing to play.
There are a number of characteristics that will lead me to avoid a game. Gender-locked classes aren't one of them for me. But requiring heavy mouse usage to play the game is, and that's something that most gamers on this site probably wouldn't even consider a negative point on a game, let alone something to rule it out completely.
If you're referring to BDO, I'd like to clarify that you aren't forced to use the mouse heavily, even if you use the mouse instead of the hotbar; it's not a click fest, it's more controlled than that.
But you also have the option to use the hotbar like a traditional MMO. Just slot the skills you want and do your 1-4 or whatever rotation like you would in other games.
I was not referring to Black Desert in particular. It was a more general statement that it's reasonable to rule out games based on just one criterion that you really care about, even if other people think it's no big deal. But thanks for the information.
Your belief from your statement is that since we are in 2016 every game should support the politically correct idea of every men and woman having the capability of being equally good at everything. While this may be true in many cases it is not in all and we have a large history to prove it. The point I was trying to make is that having things in this manner removes cultural differences and uniqueness. Basically it removes the interesting intricacies of different cultures. Having one amazon culture where the women are all warriors or having a general American Indian culture where the people only fulfill specific classes makes them different and more interesting. If every culture in game is basically the same it's fairly generic and boring. Basically if every culture is going to mimic modern day society then that is quite boring. You might as well not having any cultures at all.
Again, it removes zero interesting intricacies. Any game effect which used to be part of choosing Orc or choosing Female can simply be offered as a character build choice: now you have exactly as many interesting intricacies but without implying race or gender is a limiting factor, perpetuating racism and sexism.
Your point about cultural uniqueness is both off-topic and wrong:
It's off-topic because detaching gameplay effects from race/gender choice (and adding them to build choice) has nothing to do with cultural uniqueness.
It's wrong because orcs will still have spiky buildings and elves will still have graceful ones. Each culture will still be unique, because the culture is entirely unrelated to racial/gender bonuses.
Your "it's not a unique culture unless there's racism or sexism involved" attitude is really bizarre.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
yeah seriously OP the devs making these games are in china and Korea not sure what you hope to accomplish here with posting this. Gender lock classes have been in almost all asian games since they started shipping their garbage to the west. Just stop playing asian games if you want it to stop.
Again, it removes zero interesting intricacies. Any game effect which used to be part of choosing Orc or choosing Female can simply be offered as a character build choice: now you have exactly as many interesting intricacies but without implying race or gender is a limiting factor, perpetuating racism and sexism.
Your point about cultural uniqueness is both off-topic and wrong:
It's off-topic because detaching gameplay effects from race/gender choice (and adding them to build choice) has nothing to do with cultural uniqueness.
It's wrong because orcs will still have spiky buildings and elves will still have graceful ones. Each culture will still be unique, because the culture is entirely unrelated to racial/gender bonuses.
Your "it's not a unique culture unless there's racism or sexism involved" attitude is really bizarre.
That's nice, but not really true.
Point of example in WoW and originally the entire reason Horde had no paladins initially. It did not fit to the individual races or cultures.
The Orcs had the lineage of being demonically cursed and since breaking free had turned towards the more tribal and shamanistic culture of their Troll and Tauren kin. The Undead were possessed of, well, unholy energy in the first place so being a holy warrior was pretty much out of the question.
When Burning Crusade came along Blizz introduced a new lore mechanic in order to allow the Blood Elves to gain access to the paladin class even though they do not "serve the light".
The later addition of Tauren paladins was even only excused by developing a lore component about their sun god.
Not all aspects of cultures are "good". Whitewashing them does in fact take away from the potential uniqueness and depth of the lore. Further more, the fact that there are things like that serves to highlight and generate the conflict in many games that ends up serving as the reason for players to be fighting across factions too.
Again a WoW example. There is/was racism out the wazoo between the humans and orcs. Undead are/were commonly hated for being walking talking abominations. Gnomes and goblins have/had longstanding feuds around technology. Worgen were/are perceived as flesh-changing monsters. Night elves and blood elves have one of the longest histories of hating each other. etc
Race and gender (gender less so) bias and privileges are the very reason for quite a lot of the lore and conflict seen in WoW and other games. It has quite a lot of depth that it's contributed by creating cultures that we can sometimes agree with but at other times find aspects that make us go "maybe they aren't so great". It gives reason to think, argue, fight, and grow.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The gender locked classes the OP was mentioning is a pretty common thing in Korean games. Often you are also extremely limited in appearance as well. (One class is always this big bulky guy, another one is so small & petite they look like or actually is a child, another is a buxom female, etc.) So, since he brought up BDO, is that game a Korean port?
Locking classes to gender cause of lore reasons is nothing but a very cheap and still very effective excuse.
Valkyrie is a female, not male. Witch is a female, a male witch isn't called a wtich. A wizard is a male, a female wizard isn't called a wizard.
Cheap? BDO devs would have saved themselves more money and time by just having a wizard and allowing it to be male or female instead of developing an entire class that is a witch and isn't a copy of the wizard.
They intend to add classes to the game. They could have saved themselves the trouble and not made a Valkyrie, which by definition must be a woman, and created a "paladin" and made it sexless. Instead they made a Valkyrie, which again by definition must be a woman, and later on down the road they could introduce a male equivalent called the paladin.
They wouldn't have bothered making male and female equivalents to most of their classes if they wanted to be cheap, because they have to come up with 2 classes now instead of just one, and they can't be complete copies they have to at least play slightly different or it's pointless to gender lock.
Seems like you misunderstand what my statement is about:
+ Cheap: You don't need a programming artist to delete, add or adjust a text paragraph of the lore to make it on par with the game's status.
+ Effective: In costs, in time, and to have a pretty good disguise for <"insert reason">.
On the other side:
- It means ignoring loads of potential players that are used to options like this and therefor giving up on a considerable amount of profit correspondingly.
The gender locked classes the OP was mentioning is a pretty common thing in Korean games. Often you are also extremely limited in appearance as well. (One class is always this big bulky guy, another one is so small & petite they look like or actually is a child, another is a buxom female, etc.) So, since he brought up BDO, is that game a Korean port?
Yes.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Your belief from your statement is that since we are in 2016 every game should support the politically correct idea of every men and woman having the capability of being equally good at everything. While this may be true in many cases it is not in all and we have a large history to prove it. The point I was trying to make is that having things in this manner removes cultural differences and uniqueness. Basically it removes the interesting intricacies of different cultures. Having one amazon culture where the women are all warriors or having a general American Indian culture where the people only fulfill specific classes makes them different and more interesting. If every culture in game is basically the same it's fairly generic and boring. Basically if every culture is going to mimic modern day society then that is quite boring. You might as well not having any cultures at all.
Again, it removes zero interesting intricacies. Any game effect which used to be part of choosing Orc or choosing Female can simply be offered as a character build choice: now you have exactly as many interesting intricacies but without implying race or gender is a limiting factor, perpetuating racism and sexism.
Your point about cultural uniqueness is both off-topic and wrong:
It's off-topic because detaching gameplay effects from race/gender choice (and adding them to build choice) has nothing to do with cultural uniqueness.
It's wrong because orcs will still have spiky buildings and elves will still have graceful ones. Each culture will still be unique, because the culture is entirely unrelated to racial/gender bonuses.
Your "it's not a unique culture unless there's racism or sexism involved" attitude is really bizarre.
It's all about uniqueness. I pointed out some instances where women were the ones who were the fighters.
Though I never said it in my post I don't believe it's sexist that to say that males are overall physically stronger, more suited to manual labor, and also better at physical violence. Most of this is chemical and has to do with testosterone levels. There is a reason that society was mostly male predominant during times where society was heavily dependent on war and physical labor. Likewise society has favored balance more when the important factor is intelligence. That doesn't mean women can't fight or hunt well or that some can do it better than some men.
Getting back on topic I do believe that these choices make a difference. As some pointed out the Amazon's are a cultural class from history that make sense as mostly women. Others have pointed out Valkyries who are also fighting women. These culture's would be fairly bland if they were all men and women exactly equal. I'm not against such a society in game, but I think there should be other societies that are different. In Everquest there was no gender lock, but you did have different societies with different beliefs. Other examples I've seen from people on this post are the Witcher and Tomb Raider. Both games are better off being gender locked as it adds to the game having a focus on certain things.
IMO there are a lot of issues in games that make them more interesting in a fantasy environment. Sometimes have people who are sexist or racist as a bad guy makes things more interesting. Having people who are racist in game can make things more interesting. Having things like people being forced into marriage can make things more interesting. From a story standpoint you have to have some bad things that need to be overcome and sometimes it makes sense for certain societies in a game to portray a more classical form. There is no need for every society in game to portray modern moral beliefs.
Comments
There are a number of characteristics that will lead me to avoid a game. Gender-locked classes aren't one of them for me. But requiring heavy mouse usage to play the game is, and that's something that most gamers on this site probably wouldn't even consider a negative point on a game, let alone something to rule it out completely.
Also dev dont care as result I will never buy BDO which is a good think
But you also have the option to use the hotbar like a traditional MMO. Just slot the skills you want and do your 1-4 or whatever rotation like you would in other games.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Your point about cultural uniqueness is both off-topic and wrong:
- It's off-topic because detaching gameplay effects from race/gender choice (and adding them to build choice) has nothing to do with cultural uniqueness.
- It's wrong because orcs will still have spiky buildings and elves will still have graceful ones. Each culture will still be unique, because the culture is entirely unrelated to racial/gender bonuses.
Your "it's not a unique culture unless there's racism or sexism involved" attitude is really bizarre."What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Point of example in WoW and originally the entire reason Horde had no paladins initially. It did not fit to the individual races or cultures.
The Orcs had the lineage of being demonically cursed and since breaking free had turned towards the more tribal and shamanistic culture of their Troll and Tauren kin. The Undead were possessed of, well, unholy energy in the first place so being a holy warrior was pretty much out of the question.
When Burning Crusade came along Blizz introduced a new lore mechanic in order to allow the Blood Elves to gain access to the paladin class even though they do not "serve the light".
The later addition of Tauren paladins was even only excused by developing a lore component about their sun god.
Not all aspects of cultures are "good". Whitewashing them does in fact take away from the potential uniqueness and depth of the lore. Further more, the fact that there are things like that serves to highlight and generate the conflict in many games that ends up serving as the reason for players to be fighting across factions too.
Again a WoW example. There is/was racism out the wazoo between the humans and orcs. Undead are/were commonly hated for being walking talking abominations. Gnomes and goblins have/had longstanding feuds around technology. Worgen were/are perceived as flesh-changing monsters. Night elves and blood elves have one of the longest histories of hating each other. etc
Race and gender (gender less so) bias and privileges are the very reason for quite a lot of the lore and conflict seen in WoW and other games. It has quite a lot of depth that it's contributed by creating cultures that we can sometimes agree with but at other times find aspects that make us go "maybe they aren't so great". It gives reason to think, argue, fight, and grow.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So, since he brought up BDO, is that game a Korean port?
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
+ Cheap: You don't need a programming artist to delete, add or adjust a text paragraph of the lore to make it on par with the game's status.
+ Effective: In costs, in time, and to have a pretty good disguise for <"insert reason">.
On the other side:
- It means ignoring loads of potential players that are used to options like this and therefor giving up on a considerable amount of profit correspondingly.
/sarcasm because people are dumb
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Though I never said it in my post I don't believe it's sexist that to say that males are overall physically stronger, more suited to manual labor, and also better at physical violence. Most of this is chemical and has to do with testosterone levels. There is a reason that society was mostly male predominant during times where society was heavily dependent on war and physical labor. Likewise society has favored balance more when the important factor is intelligence. That doesn't mean women can't fight or hunt well or that some can do it better than some men.
Getting back on topic I do believe that these choices make a difference. As some pointed out the Amazon's are a cultural class from history that make sense as mostly women. Others have pointed out Valkyries who are also fighting women. These culture's would be fairly bland if they were all men and women exactly equal. I'm not against such a society in game, but I think there should be other societies that are different. In Everquest there was no gender lock, but you did have different societies with different beliefs. Other examples I've seen from people on this post are the Witcher and Tomb Raider. Both games are better off being gender locked as it adds to the game having a focus on certain things.
IMO there are a lot of issues in games that make them more interesting in a fantasy environment. Sometimes have people who are sexist or racist as a bad guy makes things more interesting. Having people who are racist in game can make things more interesting. Having things like people being forced into marriage can make things more interesting. From a story standpoint you have to have some bad things that need to be overcome and sometimes it makes sense for certain societies in a game to portray a more classical form. There is no need for every society in game to portray modern moral beliefs.