Originally posted by Fadeus I don't see how anyone can say they think the game would rock pre-cu without the ham system being redone still. I can't think of a person that wasn't complaining back then about how screwed up combat was.
/wave
Not only me, but 90% of the people I played with didn't have major problems with the old HAM system. Sure, there was room for improvement, but we enjoyed it MUCH more than the level system of the CU.
The reason we would have loved RotW wih the old game was because it was the most content EVER introduced into the game. ToOW didn't even do half that. We were STARVED for content, and RotW would have had us going for months.
The most damaging thing to the community was the CU... the deathblow was the nge. If neither of those happened, and we still got RotW and ToOW, we'd not be talking about this game, we'd be playing it.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Fadeus I don't see how anyone can say they think the game would rock pre-cu without the ham system being redone still. I can't think of a person that wasn't complaining back then about how screwed up combat was.
/wave
Not only me, but 90% of the people I played with didn't have major problems with the old HAM system. Sure, there was room for improvement, but we enjoyed it MUCH more than the level system of the CU.
The reason we would have loved RotW wih the old game was because it was the most content EVER introduced into the game. ToOW didn't even do half that. We were STARVED for content, and RotW would have had us going for months.
The most damaging thing to the community was the CU... the deathblow was the nge. If neither of those happened, and we still got RotW and ToOW, we'd not be talking about this game, we'd be playing it.
I am sorry Shayde, but I jsut sat and went through pages 70 to the very first page of the SWG forums here and I don't see any perky happiness about the HAM system where people were saying it just needed a few revisions. I DO however remember the outrage people had when they delayed the CU because the game was "fundementally broken" and was broken at the core. I remember the slew of bad wrap JTL took on amazon.com because people were enraged that they had to continue playing a broken game.
That is what I remember. Now you can tell me you thought it was fine, but I have a real hard time beleiving it. And NOW after the NGE all the sudden everyone thought it was so great before and want it back that way.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I never had a problem with the HAM system or the combat system. I don't ever recall anyone I knew having a problem with the combat system.
The only issue I even remember repeatedly with HAM had to do with one thing... Mind bar. Seeing as how you couldn't heal it and for people who did pvp the huge influx of Combat Medic / Riflemen was no doubt a problem.
I didn't really pvp there but for those that did ya the issue had to be addressed.
However, with that being said...
I don't see how anyone could really belive that if they had done the following:
Taking the time involved, the peopole involved and the resources from:
1) The CU
2) The NGE
3) The last two expansions
Then applied it to fixing and finishing the existing game. That we wouldn't have all been better off in the end. They had a design that for the most part worked and some very loyal fan base. If they had just worked on the existing issues it would in my opinion definitely have been better for all.
I'm fine with the fact the game changed. I'll never be fine that they removed my two main professions... plus if the game had been level/class based at launch. I wouldn't have bought it.. let alone 9 copies by the time me and my roomie were done.
Originally posted by Fadeus I don't see how anyone can say they think the game would rock pre-cu without the ham system being redone still. I can't think of a person that wasn't complaining back then about how screwed up combat was.
And another to the contrary.
I never went higher than NovPistols back in the Classic age, because I was too busy being everything else at the same time. The HAM system didn't bother me at all, and combat worked fine. I had endless fun soloing red-cons with food buffs, a good Republic Blaster and a bit of armor. The CU and NGE just totally smashed the generalist play-style.
Originally posted by CasualMaker Originally posted by Fadeus I don't see how anyone can say they think the game would rock pre-cu without the ham system being redone still. I can't think of a person that wasn't complaining back then about how screwed up combat was.
And another to the contrary.
I never went higher than NovPistols back in the Classic age, because I was too busy being everything else at the same time. The HAM system didn't bother me at all, and combat worked fine. I had endless fun soloing red-cons with food buffs, a good Republic Blaster and a bit of armor. The CU and NGE just totally smashed the generalist play-style.
Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Fadeus Originally posted by CasualMaker Originally posted by Fadeus I don't see how anyone can say they think the game would rock pre-cu without the ham system being redone still. I can't think of a person that wasn't complaining back then about how screwed up combat was.
And another to the contrary.
I never went higher than NovPistols back in the Classic age, because I was too busy being everything else at the same time. The HAM system didn't bother me at all, and combat worked fine. I had endless fun soloing red-cons with food buffs, a good Republic Blaster and a bit of armor. The CU and NGE just totally smashed the generalist play-style.
Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
Most of the people screaming for an upgrade didn't realize the extent that SOE/LA would take it. I for one believed that all the game needed combatwise was a reduction in buffs. However I have to say that the CU did do one thing right, which was the changes made to armor and armorsmithing. If they had just kept out the certifications, the armor system would have been perfect.
Originally posted by Fadeus Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Fadeus Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
What the CU ended up being is a completely different arguement.
Interesting how for once instance you support the vocal minority theory, but you don't the rest of the times. Like perhaps the vocal minority here now posting about how great it was back then?
Sorry, my beleifs won't change on the SWG community, I was there just like you. I just am not one to sit and listen to everyone do an about face and say how great the old days were once change has happenned when I sat and listened to them bitch about the old days when they had them.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Fadeus Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Fadeus Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
What the CU ended up being is a completely different arguement.
Interesting how for once instance you support the vocal minority theory, but you don't the rest of the times. Like perhaps the vocal minority here now posting about how great it was back then?
Sorry, my beleifs won't change on the SWG community, I was there just like you. I just am not one to sit and listen to everyone do an about face and say how great the old days were once change has happenned when I sat and listened to them bitch about the old days when they had them.
Then look back and count all the posters from people wanting a combat upgrade... and compare that to the number of posters who said the CU blew.. or even the nge blew. You'd probably see a 20:1 ratio.
People complain when there is something wrong. There were MUCH less complaints before the CU then after.
Things were much better pre-cu. Is here anyone disputing this?
I'm not doing a 180 on this. Nobody I played with is doing a 180 on this. We ALL wanted pre-cu, we thought it was great. Sure, it could have used some work.. but what game couldn't.
The only thing we were wrong about this is we said "Well, it can't get any worse" after the CU.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Fadeus Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Fadeus Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
What the CU ended up being is a completely different arguement.
Interesting how for once instance you support the vocal minority theory, but you don't the rest of the times. Like perhaps the vocal minority here now posting about how great it was back then?
Sorry, my beleifs won't change on the SWG community, I was there just like you. I just am not one to sit and listen to everyone do an about face and say how great the old days were once change has happenned when I sat and listened to them bitch about the old days when they had them.
Then look back and count all the posters from people wanting a combat upgrade... and compare that to the number of posters who said the CU blew.. or even the nge blew. You'd probably see a 20:1 ratio.
People complain when there is something wrong. There were MUCH less complaints before the CU then after.
Things were much better pre-cu. Is here anyone disputing this?
I'm not doing a 180 on this. Nobody I played with is doing a 180 on this. We ALL wanted pre-cu, we thought it was great. Sure, it could have used some work.. but what game couldn't.
The only thing we were wrong about this is we said "Well, it can't get any worse" after the CU.
Your still fixated on that one bogus poll about the CU. You are still not focusing on my point. I do not agree with your ratio analysis either. I am sorry but I remember very well how loud the CU outcry was, all the way to big media. I remember the vocial minority statement Torres made which caused even more contraversy at the time when he said it was the vocal minority that weren't happy with the CU's timeline. And how appauled "the majority of the playerbase" according to most of the people complaining was that he considered them the vocal minority.
I agree with you on alot of stuff Shayde but I still think you have selective memory when it comes to the "good ole days" of SWG.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Fadeus I agree with you on alot of stuff Shayde but I still think you have selective memory when it comes to the "good ole days" of SWG.
I dunno.. I never bitched. None of the people I played with bitched. We all loved pre-cu and thought the game spiralled down the bowl since the CU.
More people bitched about the CU than the lack of one. Hell.. I can't think of ONE complaint I ever posted about the gameplay before the CU. EVER.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I believe the best possible solution would be to start from scratch.
Re-evaluate existing team Hire new developers, designers, Develop new engine Get rid of things that can remind community about original SWG as much as possible Release SWG-2
Everything else will be considered by players as a "fix for old failures".
Originally posted by bimmer I believe the best possible solution would be to start from scratch.Re-evaluate existing team Hire new developers, designers, Develop new engine Get rid of things that can remind community about original SWG as much as possible Release SWG-2Everything else will be considered by players as a "fix for old failures".just my opinion.
Nu uh, because LEC would still be calling the shots and when they look at the financial report and don't see what they like they will do the exact same thing they did with this one; change it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Fadeus ... sorry my friend ..... but I think you have selective memory.
A couple of months after SWG was released the account level was at about 500K. If you remember shortly after release the community started seeing MAJOR nerfs. EVERY time you turned around some profession was getting nerfed. CH was nerfed so bad about 3 months after launch that it was useless in PvP and could not be used on high level creatures in PvE. AND CH was never ever a viable profession after that. The problem with the nerfs was that they started making everyone pissed. People started leaving. So $OE, SONY, $LA figured they come up with the first CU. But prior to the CU we had JTL pushed out. JTL broke 50% of the ground game and in of itself wasn't finished either. So people left over that too.
The forum was filled with posts not to go forward with the CU. But $OE, $ONY, and $LA did anyways.
So SWG went from 500K playerbase to 200K- 250K playerbase after the CU. After the CU came the NGE where their playerbase is somewhere between 30 -40K.
Account levels in SWG have gone steadily down with EVERY nerf, expansion and publish. Now does this tell you something?
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Originally posted by Sago Fadeus ... sorry my friend ..... but I think you have selective memory. A couple of months after SWG was released the account level was at about 500K. If you remember shortly after release the community started seeing MAJOR nerfs. EVERY time you turned around some profession was getting nerfed. CH was nerfed so bad about 3 months after launch that it was useless in PvP and could not be used on high level creatures in PvE. AND CH was never ever a viable profession after that. The problem with the nerfs was that they started making everyone pissed. People started leaving. So $OE, SONY, $LA figured they come up with the first CU. But prior to the CU we had JTL pushed out. JTL broke 50% of the ground game and in of itself wasn't finished either. So people left over that too. The forum was filled with posts not to go forward with the CU. But $OE, $ONY, and $LA did anyways. So SWG went from 500K playerbase to 200K- 250K playerbase after the CU. After the CU came the NGE where their playerbase is somewhere between 30 -40K. Account levels in SWG have gone steadily down with EVERY nerf, expansion and publish. Now does this tell you something?
Umm, no. By the time the CU hit the community had already bottomed down to as low as 200k. I don't know where you are getting your fluffed numbers from but I think even Shayde and I have already agreed the game was dwindling by the time CU came out and the CU atleast gave it a short revival.
My memory is just fine, you however are trying to add timeline in that isn't even at question or in the discussion.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Sago Fadeus ... sorry my friend ..... but I think you have selective memory. A couple of months after SWG was released the account level was at about 500K. If you remember shortly after release the community started seeing MAJOR nerfs. EVERY time you turned around some profession was getting nerfed. CH was nerfed so bad about 3 months after launch that it was useless in PvP and could not be used on high level creatures in PvE. AND CH was never ever a viable profession after that. The problem with the nerfs was that they started making everyone pissed. People started leaving. So $OE, SONY, $LA figured they come up with the first CU. But prior to the CU we had JTL pushed out. JTL broke 50% of the ground game and in of itself wasn't finished either. So people left over that too. The forum was filled with posts not to go forward with the CU. But $OE, $ONY, and $LA did anyways. So SWG went from 500K playerbase to 200K- 250K playerbase after the CU. After the CU came the NGE where their playerbase is somewhere between 30 -40K. Account levels in SWG have gone steadily down with EVERY nerf, expansion and publish. Now does this tell you something?
Umm, no. By the time the CU hit the community had already bottomed down to as low as 200k. I don't know where you are getting your fluffed numbers from but I think even Shayde and I have already agreed the game was dwindling by the time CU came out and the CU atleast gave it a short revival.
My memory is just fine, you however are trying to add timeline in that isn't even at question or in the discussion.
Der ... I said it dwindled "steadily" by the time CU arrived the CU nade it worse. Tons of people left after CU. Try reading my post before jumping.
So either you are wrong or the server population dropped below 200K significantly and then came back up prior to the release of the NGE. So which is it? The numbers after CU went down ... they did not go up due to the CU. Account levels were estimated at 200K when NGE hit. So it looks like you have fuzzy math.
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Originally posted by Sago Der ... I said it dwindled "steadily" by the time CU arrived the CU nade it worse. Tons of people left after CU. Try reading my post before jumping. So either you are wrong or the server population dropped below 200K significantly and then came back up prior to the release of the NGE. So which is it? The numbers after CU went down ... they did not go up due to the CU. Account levels were estimated at 200K when NGE hit. So it looks like you have fuzzy math.
The numbers after the CU went down according to who? I have yet to see an official press release stating a loss of players after the CU and before the NGE.
And you did not state it that way the first time. You made it clear after the CU it was down too 200-250k. Write it properly and maybe I will read it properly.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
From my memory Fadeus is correct. I think in Dec 03? they started mentioning the CU/Revamp/Balance whatever they called it at the time because everyone was complaining how borked the combat system was (unbalanced, buffs, mind bar, stacking etc). For months they would answer every post with "It will be fixed in the combat balance". They strung people along for months like that and there was even a post of every Dev response on the forums about the combat balance.
Then they did publish 9 & 10 which were the jedi/village ones and people started getting angry about that and the suspiscion that they were pulling Devs to work on JTL instead of the Combat Balance, but they kept assuring everyone it would be done before JTL speed came out because they had 2 different teams. I think a month or so before the expansion was released they finally said they wouldn't have the Combat Balance done so alot more people got pissed and left.
They then flew out some Correspondents for damage control to go over the current Combat Balance with them to shut people up for awhile.
Originally posted by Sago Der ... I said it dwindled "steadily" by the time CU arrived the CU nade it worse. Tons of people left after CU. Try reading my post before jumping. So either you are wrong or the server population dropped below 200K significantly and then came back up prior to the release of the NGE. So which is it? The numbers after CU went down ... they did not go up due to the CU. Account levels were estimated at 200K when NGE hit. So it looks like you have fuzzy math.
The numbers after the CU went down according to who? I have yet to see an official press release stating a loss of players after the CU and before the NGE.
And you did not state it that way the first time. You made it clear after the CU it was down too 200-250k. Write it properly and maybe I will read it properly.
From my original post. What does steadily down mean?
"Account levels in SWG have gone steadily down with EVERY nerf, expansion and publish."
I had people in my friends list that were NOT around after JTL and CU. If I saw this and my nephew saw this and his friends saw this ... guess it didn't happen? You can also open your eyes and read. I have read many posts from people that said they quit after JTL and CU came out.
But your right ... it never occured.
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
"The numbers after the CU went down according to who? I have yet to see an official press release stating a loss of players after the CU and before the NGE."
Well I'll give my answer and perspective on that...
I played on Starsider from when the game went live... until well I still can go there as I have eq2 on station access.
Anyway I worked with 4 or 5 different player cities (I actually was a bio engineer and they used a lot of my pet projects for decorations).
I was fairly active in two different player associations as well (I personally ran 4 accounts my roomie ran 5 more).
Nobody I knew had even heard about the CU. I went to the SWG site and forums quite often. About 3 days before the CU was going to go live I mentioned something about it on teamspeak. People started going to test.
When the CU hit... every person I knew and all those cities went to 0 (yes that is zero population). My friends list was also 0.
Between the CU and NGE I saw 3 different people that logged in now and then before the NGE hit they left for good.
After the NGE hit two people who had been deployed in Iraq came back. They quickly left for good as well.
In that sense I think its quite fair to say the population went down at CU time as well as NGE time. Every player city I knew was dead before the NGE. The NGE finally killed the game for me in every way as well... not much was left after the CU for me.
If other servers and other people didn't have my experience that's fine. I doubt every server emptied out the way Starsider did. However, to say the population didnt' go down would be... wrong.
$OE used to report their numbers. MMORPGchart.com tracked it. It came from their quarterly reports.
I talked to the guy who ran it last year, and he said the last time they reported the numbers was when the CU was launched. What this last report included was not only the people who came back for the CU, but those who quit over the cu, but weren't factored out yet. So in a nutshell...
July 2003 - HIGHEST EVER was 300k there was a slight dip January 2004, but it went back up to 300k. July-Dec of 2004 it dipped to 250k.
Then the CU hit, and the magic number went to about 260k. That's when they stopped reporting.
Now according to that snapshot of server loads, it is estimated to be 20k GENEROUSLY.
There's your history.
To further this... they sent out their crowing-memo of "selling a combined 1 million units" AFTER RotW shipped. That meant, core game + JTL + RotW shot them over the 1 mil mark. Which supports those numbers. If they had 500k subscribers at any time, they'd have caped that with JTL.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Can't remember where I saw it, a possible later deleted post at SOE forums perhaps, that the NGE actually was planned from the start of SWG (also in connection to a possible console version, which atm SOE definetly has admitted of not being in developement).
Oh, and to all some of the posters in the thread: great signature files - reminds me of the sigs in the MxO forums before SOE took over
Originally posted by docminus re: original post of this thread: /bumpCan't remember where I saw it, a possible later deleted post at SOE forums perhaps, that the NGE actually was planned from the start of SWG (also in connection to a possible console version, which atm SOE definetly has admitted of not being in developement).
Don't know where you might have saw that, but I don't believe that to be true. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they plan to do that during the beginning of SWG, if they just could have released that version first? Perhaps they planned a simpler version of pre-CU for the console, then they scrapped that plan. Later, when they needed to do something to revive SWG, they resurrected that plan and used it as the basis of the NGE.
That is all pure speculation of course. If you could find proof of that, I would be interested.
Originally posted by n2k3156 Originally posted by docminus re: original post of this thread: /bumpCan't remember where I saw it, a possible later deleted post at SOE forums perhaps, that the NGE actually was planned from the start of SWG (also in connection to a possible console version, which atm SOE definetly has admitted of not being in developement).
Don't know where you might have saw that, but I don't believe that to be true. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they plan to do that during the beginning of SWG, if they just could have released that version first? Perhaps they planned a simpler version of pre-CU for the console, then they scrapped that plan. Later, when they needed to do something to revive SWG, they resurrected that plan and used it as the basis of the NGE.
That is all pure speculation of course. If you could find proof of that, I would be interested.
Agree with ya n2k, there is no way the nge was planned from the start. It was extremely apparent it lacked anything more then a few months of coding and almost no pre-design planning.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Comments
/wave
Not only me, but 90% of the people I played with didn't have major problems with the old HAM system. Sure, there was room for improvement, but we enjoyed it MUCH more than the level system of the CU.
The reason we would have loved RotW wih the old game was because it was the most content EVER introduced into the game. ToOW didn't even do half that. We were STARVED for content, and RotW would have had us going for months.
The most damaging thing to the community was the CU... the deathblow was the nge. If neither of those happened, and we still got RotW and ToOW, we'd not be talking about this game, we'd be playing it.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
/wave
Not only me, but 90% of the people I played with didn't have major problems with the old HAM system. Sure, there was room for improvement, but we enjoyed it MUCH more than the level system of the CU.
The reason we would have loved RotW wih the old game was because it was the most content EVER introduced into the game. ToOW didn't even do half that. We were STARVED for content, and RotW would have had us going for months.
The most damaging thing to the community was the CU... the deathblow was the nge. If neither of those happened, and we still got RotW and ToOW, we'd not be talking about this game, we'd be playing it.
I am sorry Shayde, but I jsut sat and went through pages 70 to the very first page of the SWG forums here and I don't see any perky happiness about the HAM system where people were saying it just needed a few revisions. I DO however remember the outrage people had when they delayed the CU because the game was "fundementally broken" and was broken at the core. I remember the slew of bad wrap JTL took on amazon.com because people were enraged that they had to continue playing a broken game.
That is what I remember. Now you can tell me you thought it was fine, but I have a real hard time beleiving it. And NOW after the NGE all the sudden everyone thought it was so great before and want it back that way.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I never had a problem with the HAM system or the combat system. I don't ever recall anyone I knew having a problem with the combat system.
The only issue I even remember repeatedly with HAM had to do with one thing... Mind bar. Seeing as how you couldn't heal it and for people who did pvp the huge influx of Combat Medic / Riflemen was no doubt a problem.
I didn't really pvp there but for those that did ya the issue had to be addressed.
However, with that being said...
I don't see how anyone could really belive that if they had done the following:
Taking the time involved, the peopole involved and the resources from:
1) The CU
2) The NGE
3) The last two expansions
Then applied it to fixing and finishing the existing game. That we wouldn't have all been better off in the end. They had a design that for the most part worked and some very loyal fan base. If they had just worked on the existing issues it would in my opinion definitely have been better for all.
I'm fine with the fact the game changed. I'll never be fine that they removed my two main professions... plus if the game had been level/class based at launch. I wouldn't have bought it.. let alone 9 copies by the time me and my roomie were done.
I never went higher than NovPistols back in the Classic age, because I was too busy being everything else at the same time. The HAM system didn't bother me at all, and combat worked fine. I had endless fun soloing red-cons with food buffs, a good Republic Blaster and a bit of armor. The CU and NGE just totally smashed the generalist play-style.
I never went higher than NovPistols back in the Classic age, because I was too busy being everything else at the same time. The HAM system didn't bother me at all, and combat worked fine. I had endless fun soloing red-cons with food buffs, a good Republic Blaster and a bit of armor. The CU and NGE just totally smashed the generalist play-style.
Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I never went higher than NovPistols back in the Classic age, because I was too busy being everything else at the same time. The HAM system didn't bother me at all, and combat worked fine. I had endless fun soloing red-cons with food buffs, a good Republic Blaster and a bit of armor. The CU and NGE just totally smashed the generalist play-style.
Well then I will tell you like I tell everyone else. You had your chance to support it on the forums when everyone was in outcry for the combat upgrade.
Most of the people screaming for an upgrade didn't realize the extent that SOE/LA would take it. I for one believed that all the game needed combatwise was a reduction in buffs. However I have to say that the CU did do one thing right, which was the changes made to armor and armorsmithing. If they had just kept out the certifications, the armor system would have been perfect.
NGE Refugee.
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
What the CU ended up being is a completely different arguement.
Interesting how for once instance you support the vocal minority theory, but you don't the rest of the times. Like perhaps the vocal minority here now posting about how great it was back then?
Sorry, my beleifs won't change on the SWG community, I was there just like you. I just am not one to sit and listen to everyone do an about face and say how great the old days were once change has happenned when I sat and listened to them bitch about the old days when they had them.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
What the CU ended up being is a completely different arguement.
Interesting how for once instance you support the vocal minority theory, but you don't the rest of the times. Like perhaps the vocal minority here now posting about how great it was back then?
Sorry, my beleifs won't change on the SWG community, I was there just like you. I just am not one to sit and listen to everyone do an about face and say how great the old days were once change has happenned when I sat and listened to them bitch about the old days when they had them.
Then look back and count all the posters from people wanting a combat upgrade... and compare that to the number of posters who said the CU blew.. or even the nge blew. You'd probably see a 20:1 ratio.
People complain when there is something wrong. There were MUCH less complaints before the CU then after.
Things were much better pre-cu. Is here anyone disputing this?
I'm not doing a 180 on this. Nobody I played with is doing a 180 on this. We ALL wanted pre-cu, we thought it was great. Sure, it could have used some work.. but what game couldn't.
The only thing we were wrong about this is we said "Well, it can't get any worse" after the CU.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
"Everyone" is a strong word. You are highly exaggerating how many people demanded a complete revision. The "vocal minority" theory was actually true in this case... the few people on the forums harping on this was only a small percentage of the players. The people didn't start to really cry out about anything until the CU.
Yes, there were some PVP whiners who bitched about the mind pool, but they didn't demand it be eliminated, only asked that mind buffs be increased.
Or any other HAM related issues.. people wanted slight adjustments, not complete elimination.
There wasn't even an outcry for an "upgrade" until $OE came up with the idea. We wanted bug fixes, minor tweaks, a nerf maybe... but not a complete "upgrade".
And even those involved in the "upgrade" gave their ideas and feedback.... and it was summarily thrown out for the mess of the CU.
But NOBODY asked for the CU. As a matter of fact, 80% of the players asked for them to never push it. NOBODY asked for the nge... even more told them to shove that.
So don't blame any person on the forums for making this mess happen. They never listened to what we wanted EVER... how can we be blamed for the loss of the pre-cu game?
What the CU ended up being is a completely different arguement.
Interesting how for once instance you support the vocal minority theory, but you don't the rest of the times. Like perhaps the vocal minority here now posting about how great it was back then?
Sorry, my beleifs won't change on the SWG community, I was there just like you. I just am not one to sit and listen to everyone do an about face and say how great the old days were once change has happenned when I sat and listened to them bitch about the old days when they had them.
Then look back and count all the posters from people wanting a combat upgrade... and compare that to the number of posters who said the CU blew.. or even the nge blew. You'd probably see a 20:1 ratio.
People complain when there is something wrong. There were MUCH less complaints before the CU then after.
Things were much better pre-cu. Is here anyone disputing this?
I'm not doing a 180 on this. Nobody I played with is doing a 180 on this. We ALL wanted pre-cu, we thought it was great. Sure, it could have used some work.. but what game couldn't.
The only thing we were wrong about this is we said "Well, it can't get any worse" after the CU.
Your still fixated on that one bogus poll about the CU. You are still not focusing on my point. I do not agree with your ratio analysis either. I am sorry but I remember very well how loud the CU outcry was, all the way to big media. I remember the vocial minority statement Torres made which caused even more contraversy at the time when he said it was the vocal minority that weren't happy with the CU's timeline. And how appauled "the majority of the playerbase" according to most of the people complaining was that he considered them the vocal minority.
I agree with you on alot of stuff Shayde but I still think you have selective memory when it comes to the "good ole days" of SWG.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I dunno.. I never bitched. None of the people I played with bitched. We all loved pre-cu and thought the game spiralled down the bowl since the CU.
More people bitched about the CU than the lack of one. Hell.. I can't think of ONE complaint I ever posted about the gameplay before the CU. EVER.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I believe the best possible solution would be to start from scratch.
Re-evaluate existing team
Hire new developers, designers,
Develop new engine
Get rid of things that can remind community about original SWG as much as possible
Release SWG-2
Everything else will be considered by players as a "fix for old failures".
just my opinion.
Nu uh, because LEC would still be calling the shots and when they look at the financial report and don't see what they like they will do the exact same thing they did with this one; change it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Fadeus ... sorry my friend ..... but I think you have selective memory.
A couple of months after SWG was released the account level was at about 500K. If you remember shortly after release the community started seeing MAJOR nerfs. EVERY time you turned around some profession was getting nerfed. CH was nerfed so bad about 3 months after launch that it was useless in PvP and could not be used on high level creatures in PvE. AND CH was never ever a viable profession after that. The problem with the nerfs was that they started making everyone pissed. People started leaving. So $OE, SONY, $LA figured they come up with the first CU. But prior to the CU we had JTL pushed out. JTL broke 50% of the ground game and in of itself wasn't finished either. So people left over that too.
The forum was filled with posts not to go forward with the CU. But $OE, $ONY, and $LA did anyways.
So SWG went from 500K playerbase to 200K- 250K playerbase after the CU. After the CU came the NGE where their playerbase is somewhere between 30 -40K.
Account levels in SWG have gone steadily down with EVERY nerf, expansion and publish. Now does this tell you something?
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
Umm, no. By the time the CU hit the community had already bottomed down to as low as 200k. I don't know where you are getting your fluffed numbers from but I think even Shayde and I have already agreed the game was dwindling by the time CU came out and the CU atleast gave it a short revival.
My memory is just fine, you however are trying to add timeline in that isn't even at question or in the discussion.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Umm, no. By the time the CU hit the community had already bottomed down to as low as 200k. I don't know where you are getting your fluffed numbers from but I think even Shayde and I have already agreed the game was dwindling by the time CU came out and the CU atleast gave it a short revival.
My memory is just fine, you however are trying to add timeline in that isn't even at question or in the discussion.
Der ... I said it dwindled "steadily" by the time CU arrived the CU nade it worse. Tons of people left after CU. Try reading my post before jumping.
So either you are wrong or the server population dropped below 200K significantly and then came back up prior to the release of the NGE. So which is it? The numbers after CU went down ... they did not go up due to the CU. Account levels were estimated at 200K when NGE hit. So it looks like you have fuzzy math.
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
The numbers after the CU went down according to who? I have yet to see an official press release stating a loss of players after the CU and before the NGE.
And you did not state it that way the first time. You made it clear after the CU it was down too 200-250k. Write it properly and maybe I will read it properly.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
From my memory Fadeus is correct. I think in Dec 03? they started mentioning the CU/Revamp/Balance whatever they called it at the time because everyone was complaining how borked the combat system was (unbalanced, buffs, mind bar, stacking etc). For months they would answer every post with "It will be fixed in the combat balance". They strung people along for months like that and there was even a post of every Dev response on the forums about the combat balance.
Then they did publish 9 & 10 which were the jedi/village ones and people started getting angry about that and the suspiscion that they were pulling Devs to work on JTL instead of the Combat Balance, but they kept assuring everyone it would be done before JTL speed came out because they had 2 different teams. I think a month or so before the expansion was released they finally said they wouldn't have the Combat Balance done so alot more people got pissed and left.
They then flew out some Correspondents for damage control to go over the current Combat Balance with them to shut people up for awhile.
The numbers after the CU went down according to who? I have yet to see an official press release stating a loss of players after the CU and before the NGE.
And you did not state it that way the first time. You made it clear after the CU it was down too 200-250k. Write it properly and maybe I will read it properly.
From my original post. What does steadily down mean?
"Account levels in SWG have gone steadily down with EVERY nerf, expansion and publish."
I had people in my friends list that were NOT around after JTL and CU. If I saw this and my nephew saw this and his friends saw this ... guess it didn't happen? You can also open your eyes and read. I have read many posts from people that said they quit after JTL and CU came out.
But your right ... it never occured.
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
"The numbers after the CU went down according to who? I have yet to see an official press release stating a loss of players after the CU and before the NGE."
Well I'll give my answer and perspective on that...
I played on Starsider from when the game went live... until well I still can go there as I have eq2 on station access.
Anyway I worked with 4 or 5 different player cities (I actually was a bio engineer and they used a lot of my pet projects for decorations).
I was fairly active in two different player associations as well (I personally ran 4 accounts my roomie ran 5 more).
Nobody I knew had even heard about the CU. I went to the SWG site and forums quite often. About 3 days before the CU was going to go live I mentioned something about it on teamspeak. People started going to test.
When the CU hit... every person I knew and all those cities went to 0 (yes that is zero population). My friends list was also 0.
Between the CU and NGE I saw 3 different people that logged in now and then before the NGE hit they left for good.
After the NGE hit two people who had been deployed in Iraq came back. They quickly left for good as well.
In that sense I think its quite fair to say the population went down at CU time as well as NGE time. Every player city I knew was dead before the NGE. The NGE finally killed the game for me in every way as well... not much was left after the CU for me.
If other servers and other people didn't have my experience that's fine. I doubt every server emptied out the way Starsider did. However, to say the population didnt' go down would be... wrong.
$OE used to report their numbers. MMORPGchart.com tracked it. It came from their quarterly reports.
I talked to the guy who ran it last year, and he said the last time they reported the numbers was when the CU was launched. What this last report included was not only the people who came back for the CU, but those who quit over the cu, but weren't factored out yet. So in a nutshell...
July 2003 - HIGHEST EVER was 300k
there was a slight dip January 2004, but it went back up to 300k.
July-Dec of 2004 it dipped to 250k.
Then the CU hit, and the magic number went to about 260k. That's when they stopped reporting.
Now according to that snapshot of server loads, it is estimated to be 20k GENEROUSLY.
There's your history.
To further this... they sent out their crowing-memo of "selling a combined 1 million units" AFTER RotW shipped. That meant, core game + JTL + RotW shot them over the 1 mil mark. Which supports those numbers. If they had 500k subscribers at any time, they'd have caped that with JTL.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
re: original post of this thread:
/bump
Can't remember where I saw it, a possible later deleted post at SOE forums perhaps, that the NGE actually was planned from the start of SWG (also in connection to a possible console version, which atm SOE definetly has admitted of not being in developement).
Oh, and to all some of the posters in the thread: great signature files - reminds me of the sigs in the MxO forums before SOE took over
Don't know where you might have saw that, but I don't believe that to be true. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they plan to do that during the beginning of SWG, if they just could have released that version first? Perhaps they planned a simpler version of pre-CU for the console, then they scrapped that plan. Later, when they needed to do something to revive SWG, they resurrected that plan and used it as the basis of the NGE.
That is all pure speculation of course. If you could find proof of that, I would be interested.
NGE Refugee.
Don't know where you might have saw that, but I don't believe that to be true. It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they plan to do that during the beginning of SWG, if they just could have released that version first? Perhaps they planned a simpler version of pre-CU for the console, then they scrapped that plan. Later, when they needed to do something to revive SWG, they resurrected that plan and used it as the basis of the NGE.
That is all pure speculation of course. If you could find proof of that, I would be interested.
Agree with ya n2k, there is no way the nge was planned from the start. It was extremely apparent it lacked anything more then a few months of coding and almost no pre-design planning.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World