For the record as a guy (me) who is baised toward indie games I think the OPs description is fair.
To others, yeah its 'sandboxy' but come on lets give the AAA market some slack. at least the OP is saying AAA game instead of all games. Although I am not a fan of ArcheAge (and yes I played) and I dont think I would be a fan of this one, I think both are going in the right general direction for AAA games
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well, like I said I try to use the word "sandboxy" when talking about games like BDO and Archeage to specifically avoid this kind of digression. Surely you'd agree that BDO is different from a WoW-clone themepark.
If I wanted to get technical, I could say that Eve isn't a true sandbox either. That literal sandbox you mentioned for kids is just a box with sand in it. Eve has systems and thus limitations in place as far as what you can and cannot do in the game.
Until there comes a time when players themselves are making the graphics, physics, animations, and content of the game themselves, none of these games are technically sandboxes.
Since that day will never come I find it more useful to call games like BDO a sandbox, rather than reserving that genre category for 1 single game currently running.
There was a pretty long thread on this forum not too long ago proposing that the site have 2 separate sections for sandboxes and theme parks. It would be a little silly if only Eve was allowed to go into that section for sandboxes.
I agree sandboxy is a good word, and people do seem to get overly hung up on sandbox/themepark. Like you suggest above these words become virtually meaningless if people try and apply too strict a definition to them.
I know I'm having a lot of fun and most of it involves stepping off the rails. A lot of MMOs these days don't let you step off the rails. Label it whatever, I'm enjoying it. A lot.
Its an exercise in futility trying to convince others into what one personally defines to be a sandbox. Everyone has a different interpretation of what a sandbox is based on their own game preferences and expectations. My definition of a sandbox is a game in which developers give players the freedom to pick and choose what to do with the many features and tools they put in the sandbox to be played with. In that respect, the only requirement needed is a seamless world to explore (being the sandbox) and a lot of features to engage in (being the toys in the sandbox). The more features to play with, the greater definition of being a sandbox that is met. BDO has that seamless world to explore and its vast variety of features gives a player the ability to pick and chose what they want to do, when they want to do it.
The best argument to make for the game to not be considered an on-rails theme park is the many different ways that players have stated that they have taken in the game. With an on-rails themepark game this would not be possible because you are being led from one hub to the next without much to do but combat, leveling, and the odd end crafting. This is not the case with BDO because there is so much to pick and choose to do in the game, and any one of those things can be a game in and of themselves without having to engage in anything else if you chose not to.
The requirements needed for the classification of a sandbox by many posters in this thread and others is simply unrealistic. Some of you would only classify it a sandbox if the player was able to not only play in the sand freely, but to have to design and create all of the toys in that sandbox. That would be like children in a sandbox not only playing in the sandbox but designing and creating the little play buckets, shovels, swings, monkey bars, etc. Not only that but be allowed to do whatever they want in that sandbox including pushing and bullying every other kid in the sandbox.
BDO is a sandbox in that it gives a player the sand to play in, and gives the player a vast variety to toys to choose and play with in that sandbox. The options referred to by many posters that prevents BDO from being their interpretation of a sandbox are omitted from the game by design. It is understood that no game will satisfy 100% of the player base. The ultimate objective is to strive for the game play in the sandbox to reach a happy medium and satisfy the majority of the players in that sandbox. This will ensure a more populated sandbox being enjoyed by a majority as opposed to a largely empty sandbox being enjoyed by the few.
You clearly did not read all that I said.....my point was this.....BDO is a hybrid, mash up the words however you want....sad truth is there is only one sandbox currently running, I mean, I don't want it to be that way. These hybrids, are just that a mix of the 2....there is history of what I speak, and precedence. Just because you think it is silly to use sandbox for the only one currently successfully running is your issue....heh
I am not hung up, it is just that there are sandbox games, they just never stayed up and running, this argument is old hat. If folks would get behind a true sandbox, you would probably feel different, who knows....but if you can't look back, and understand the timeline, and breakthroughs, and industry changes that have happened, you are doing yourself an injustice.....
Pssst....if CIG (Roberts Space Industries) can actually pull off even 3/4 of promised features, they will be breaking the mold in the industry, it will be some genre changing shit.....
You have valid points in your replies....I just think that folks for some reason tend to forget the past, and what is and what isn't
Again, I obviously think BDO is different then a themepark.....but WoW clone....who brought up that dirty word?! ROFL....I mean.....talk technical we shall.....there are actually a handful of WoW-clones....I mean REAL clones....adopting a mechanic, or improving on, mixing them up, doesn't make it a WoW-clone, actually emulating look, feel, lore, gameplay so it is familiar, no innovation, I.E. copying Blizzards monster title, that would be cloning
Recore, plz....it is a hybrid, FFS......it is a GOOD game man, with ALOT of potential.....but BDO , I hate to say it, because I was SO hoping, is not a sandbox, much less, THE sandbox
Radix, right on!! That's what it is about, having fun....I am def not trying to spoil anyones fun....I gave a real reply to the actual topic....but the OP, having listed the 'titles' they think this game should take a crown for or whatever are misguided......
My definition of a sandbox is a game in which developers give players the freedom to pick and choose what to do with the many features and tools they put in the sandbox to be played with. In that respect, the only requirement needed is a seamless world to explore (being the sandbox) and a lot of features to engage in (being the toys in the sandbox). The more features to play with, the greater definition of being a sandbox that is met. BDO has that seamless world to explore and its vast variety of features gives a player the ability to pick and chose what they want to do, when they want to do it.
That certainly falls within my definition.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What mmos are sandbox in your definition of the word?
"If not WoW clone then sandbox" is just false logic. No need to discuss this further...
With the same note, lengthy post by LacedOpium is also flawed. Just the sheer number of features does not make the game sandbox either, it just make it feature rich themepark.
There are several misconception/terms misuse that mostly prevent any constructive discussion on topic. I guess the most frequent is the inability to distinguish the difference between feature and design.
Feature is a component, same component can be used in various designs - ie. quests are considered themepark feature/element while OW-FFA-PVP is supposed to be sandbox feature. There is no such thing as themepark or sandbox feature. This way of thinking is false.
A feature can be a part of sandbox game as well as themepark - ie. EVE got quests so WoW got quests, EVE is FFA PVP so WoW got PVP servers. What matters is how the features are implemented, how they interact with each, players and environment, what is the role and purpose of the feature - that is what sets a design, a themepark or sandbox.
It is not the feature itself or their list but the scheme how they are organized, how the game actually works.
In that regard, BDO is just the same power treadmill we see in any other game, and that is what makes it a themepark. And once again, that's nothing wrong nor negative.
I just wish people let go those silly connotations...
What mmos are sandbox in your definition of the word?
"If not WoW clone then sandbox" is just false logic. No need to discuss this further...
With the same note, lengthy post by LacedOpium is also flawed. Just the sheer number of features does not make the game sandbox either, it just make it feature rich themepark.
There are several misconception/terms misuse that mostly prevent any constructive discussion on topic. I guess the most frequent is the inability to distinguish the difference between feature and design.
Feature is a component, same component can be used in various designs - ie. quests are considered themepark feature/element while OW-FFA-PVP is supposed to be sandbox feature. There is no such thing as themepark or sandbox feature. This way of thinking is false.
A feature can be a part of sandbox game as well as themepark - ie. EVE got quests so WoW got quests, EVE is FFA PVP so WoW got PVP servers. What matters is how the features are implemented, how they interact with each, players and environment, what is the role and purpose of the feature - that is what sets a design, a themepark or sandbox.
It is not the feature itself or their list but the scheme how they are organized, how the game actually works.
In that regard, BDO is just the same power treadmill we see in any other game, and that is what makes it a themepark. And once again, that's nothing wrong nor negative.
I just wish people let go those silly connotations...
Sorry, I thought it was a simple question. I appreciate the page long response, but you must have misunderstood, let me try and rephrase:
What are the names of mmos you consider to be a sandbox?
Sorry, I thought it was a simple question. I appreciate the page long response, but you must have misunderstood, let me try and rephrase:
What are the names of mmos you consider to be a sandbox?
Didn't misunderstand your question, just do not want to derail the thread, yet I sort of elaborated on my previous reply which I consider to be more helpful as an answer.
/shrugs
I do not see how relevant it is but I do consider EVE Online to be a sandbox - should be apparent from my post.
A sandbox with the most restrictions because of cowtowing to the fear of goldsellers and scammers at the expense of gameplay.
gender locking, no trade between players, AH limits, energy limits,instanced housing, barely any variety in armor sets, over the top Karma penalties in normal pvp. Why does 'Sandbox' = ' open world Pvp' most of the time anyways?
Look , I am having fun and enjoying it for some time now,..but I do not consider this 'next' gen or sandbox. it's just the better of the newer MMO's out there right now, imho.
I could care less what box you want to put it in.Sand or otherwise. If the game is fun and has lots for me to do other than Murder.Death.Kill. I am probably going to like it. I like BDO.
Awesome!
Me, I look at the features of Black Desert and I shudder. The crafting and the combat don't even look like fun activities.
I could care less what box you want to put it in.Sand or otherwise. If the game is fun and has lots for me to do other than Murder.Death.Kill. I am probably going to like it. I like BDO.
I was going to call the game a Toster Oven. I mean Toasters get hot, I am sure there are some hot players..so...toaster oven seems reasonable label to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Could not get sold to buy the game during beta myself. The game has some good features but is missing player conflict in the market place and in cargo travel. The combat is glitzy but just did not do it for me.
What mmos are sandbox in your definition of the word?
"If not WoW clone then sandbox" is just false logic. No need to discuss this further...
With the same note, lengthy post by LacedOpium is also flawed. Just the sheer number of features does not make the game sandbox either, it just make it feature rich themepark.
There are several misconception/terms misuse that mostly prevent any constructive discussion on topic. I guess the most frequent is the inability to distinguish the difference between feature and design.
Feature is a component, same component can be used in various designs - ie. quests are considered themepark feature/element while OW-FFA-PVP is supposed to be sandbox feature. There is no such thing as themepark or sandbox feature. This way of thinking is false.
A feature can be a part of sandbox game as well as themepark - ie. EVE got quests so WoW got quests, EVE is FFA PVP so WoW got PVP servers. What matters is how the features are implemented, how they interact with each, players and environment, what is the role and purpose of the feature - that is what sets a design, a themepark or sandbox.
It is not the feature itself or their list but the scheme how they are organized, how the game actually works.
In that regard, BDO is just the same power treadmill we see in any other game, and that is what makes it a themepark. And once again, that's nothing wrong nor negative.
I just wish people let go those silly connotations...
Sorry, I thought it was a simple question. I appreciate the page long response, but you must have misunderstood, let me try and rephrase:
What are the names of mmos you consider to be a sandbox?
According to his lengthy post you quoted here, no MMORPG is a sandbox, because all have a "power threadmill", or to use more appropriate and precise words, a progression system that makes your character more powerful.
Hell, even Minecraft isn't a sandbox if we go with that definition.
Arguing for the sake of arguing.
His is a perfect example of what I meant by this ...
The requirements needed for the classification of a sandbox by many posters in this thread and others is simply unrealistic.
He takes it to an extreme just for argument's sake. It doesn't have to be that complicated because it really isn't. Justification for that is clearly delineated in my post.
If u ever played UO, SW Galaxies and game like these u will know what sandbox is supposed to be! Instanced housing, Instanced dungeons means the game is far away from full freedom of the sandbox games
If u ever played UO, SW Galaxies and game like these u will know what sandbox is supposed to be! Instanced housing, Instanced dungeons means the game is far away from full freedom of the sandbox games
There is only so much code you can put into a game before it starts becoming a tangled buggy mess. Not to mention the amount of dollars and necessary required resources. Whereas there may have been many sandbox features in UO and SWG that BDO doesn't have, there are many more in BDO that UO and SWG did not have. Even a game like minecraft and EVE, that is considered to be the gold standard when it comes to being a sandbox, are lacking in many of the quality features that a game like BDO offers. Sacrifices have to be made. While minecraft makes huge sacrifices in its visual presentation of the game, Eve is nothing more than a database strategy game in space. Its simply boils down to the priorities a developer wants to make in their game. A matter of picking your poison, if you will.
And instanced housing in cities was a wise choice, the houses are actually in the real world but there's no ugly cluttering like you had in UO and SWG, and the cities are kept alive.
I actually liked the SWG housing. Instancing goes against 'sandbox' imho.
I found it so immersive and cool to turn a corner and find a small community of houses and shops. Discovering new player made villages in the open world that wasn't there yesterday. It feeds to the 'living' world a sandbox should have. As opposed to static buildings with instanced apartment style magic rooms.
BDO has some cool weather, topographical overlays on the map. Reminds me of SWG and the hunt for the juicy resource spots that constantly changed. BDO should use this. real world harvesting, guilds protecting hot spots, hotspots that change.
BDO is yet another mmo that people want to be 'next-gen' and yet they go backwards are more things than not, imho. Especially in terms of defining 'sandbox' elements. Not even that,..screw the term sandbox,...just in terms of pushing the boundaries of the genre.
Comments
To others, yeah its 'sandboxy' but come on lets give the AAA market some slack. at least the OP is saying AAA game instead of all games. Although I am not a fan of ArcheAge (and yes I played) and I dont think I would be a fan of this one, I think both are going in the right general direction for AAA games
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I like ur new avatar btw.
What mmos are sandbox in your definition of the word?
Its an exercise in futility trying to convince others into what one personally defines to be a sandbox. Everyone has a different interpretation of what a sandbox is based on their own game preferences and expectations. My definition of a sandbox is a game in which developers give players the freedom to pick and choose what to do with the many features and tools they put in the sandbox to be played with. In that respect, the only requirement needed is a seamless world to explore (being the sandbox) and a lot of features to engage in (being the toys in the sandbox). The more features to play with, the greater definition of being a sandbox that is met. BDO has that seamless world to explore and its vast variety of features gives a player the ability to pick and chose what they want to do, when they want to do it.
The best argument to make for the game to not be considered an on-rails theme park is the many different ways that players have stated that they have taken in the game. With an on-rails themepark game this would not be possible because you are being led from one hub to the next without much to do but combat, leveling, and the odd end crafting. This is not the case with BDO because there is so much to pick and choose to do in the game, and any one of those things can be a game in and of themselves without having to engage in anything else if you chose not to.
The requirements needed for the classification of a sandbox by many posters in this thread and others is simply unrealistic. Some of you would only classify it a sandbox if the player was able to not only play in the sand freely, but to have to design and create all of the toys in that sandbox. That would be like children in a sandbox not only playing in the sandbox but designing and creating the little play buckets, shovels, swings, monkey bars, etc. Not only that but be allowed to do whatever they want in that sandbox including pushing and bullying every other kid in the sandbox.
BDO is a sandbox in that it gives a player the sand to play in, and gives the player a vast variety to toys to choose and play with in that sandbox. The options referred to by many posters that prevents BDO from being their interpretation of a sandbox are omitted from the game by design. It is understood that no game will satisfy 100% of the player base. The ultimate objective is to strive for the game play in the sandbox to reach a happy medium and satisfy the majority of the players in that sandbox. This will ensure a more populated sandbox being enjoyed by a majority as opposed to a largely empty sandbox being enjoyed by the few.
I am not hung up, it is just that there are sandbox games, they just never stayed up and running, this argument is old hat. If folks would get behind a true sandbox, you would probably feel different, who knows....but if you can't look back, and understand the timeline, and breakthroughs, and industry changes that have happened, you are doing yourself an injustice.....
Pssst....if CIG (Roberts Space Industries) can actually pull off even 3/4 of promised features, they will be breaking the mold in the industry, it will be some genre changing shit.....
You have valid points in your replies....I just think that folks for some reason tend to forget the past, and what is and what isn't
Again, I obviously think BDO is different then a themepark.....but WoW clone....who brought up that dirty word?! ROFL....I mean.....talk technical we shall.....there are actually a handful of WoW-clones....I mean REAL clones....adopting a mechanic, or improving on, mixing them up, doesn't make it a WoW-clone, actually emulating look, feel, lore, gameplay so it is familiar, no innovation, I.E. copying Blizzards monster title, that would be cloning
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
With the same note, lengthy post by LacedOpium is also flawed. Just the sheer number of features does not make the game sandbox either, it just make it feature rich themepark.
There are several misconception/terms misuse that mostly prevent any constructive discussion on topic. I guess the most frequent is the inability to distinguish the difference between feature and design.
Feature is a component, same component can be used in various designs - ie. quests are considered themepark feature/element while OW-FFA-PVP is supposed to be sandbox feature. There is no such thing as themepark or sandbox feature. This way of thinking is false.
A feature can be a part of sandbox game as well as themepark - ie. EVE got quests so WoW got quests, EVE is FFA PVP so WoW got PVP servers. What matters is how the features are implemented, how they interact with each, players and environment, what is the role and purpose of the feature - that is what sets a design, a themepark or sandbox.
It is not the feature itself or their list but the scheme how they are organized, how the game actually works.
In that regard, BDO is just the same power treadmill we see in any other game, and that is what makes it a themepark. And once again, that's nothing wrong nor negative.
I just wish people let go those silly connotations...
What are the names of mmos you consider to be a sandbox?
/shrugs
I do not see how relevant it is but I do consider EVE Online to be a sandbox - should be apparent from my post.
A sandbox with the most restrictions because of cowtowing to the fear of goldsellers and scammers at the expense of gameplay.
gender locking, no trade between players, AH limits, energy limits,instanced housing, barely any variety in armor sets, over the top Karma penalties in normal pvp. Why does 'Sandbox' = ' open world Pvp' most of the time anyways?
Look , I am having fun and enjoying it for some time now,..but I do not consider this 'next' gen or sandbox.
it's just the better of the newer MMO's out there right now, imho.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Me, I look at the features of Black Desert and I shudder. The crafting and the combat don't even look like fun activities.
TSW, LotRO, EQ2, SWTOR, GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO, BDO, SotA, B&S, ESO,
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
His is a perfect example of what I meant by this ...
The requirements needed for the classification of a sandbox by many posters in this thread and others is simply unrealistic.
He takes it to an extreme just for argument's sake. It doesn't have to be that complicated because it really isn't. Justification for that is clearly delineated in my post.
There is only so much code you can put into a game before it starts becoming a tangled buggy mess. Not to mention the amount of dollars and necessary required resources. Whereas there may have been many sandbox features in UO and SWG that BDO doesn't have, there are many more in BDO that UO and SWG did not have. Even a game like minecraft and EVE, that is considered to be the gold standard when it comes to being a sandbox, are lacking in many of the quality features that a game like BDO offers. Sacrifices have to be made. While minecraft makes huge sacrifices in its visual presentation of the game, Eve is nothing more than a database strategy game in space. Its simply boils down to the priorities a developer wants to make in their game. A matter of picking your poison, if you will.
I found it so immersive and cool to turn a corner and find a small community of houses and shops. Discovering new player made villages in the open world that wasn't there yesterday. It feeds to the 'living' world a sandbox should have. As opposed to static buildings with instanced apartment style magic rooms.
BDO has some cool weather, topographical overlays on the map. Reminds me of SWG and the hunt for the juicy resource spots that constantly changed. BDO should use this. real world harvesting, guilds protecting hot spots, hotspots that change.
BDO is yet another mmo that people want to be 'next-gen' and yet they go backwards are more things than not, imho. Especially in terms of defining 'sandbox' elements. Not even that,..screw the term sandbox,...just in terms of pushing the boundaries of the genre.