I had similar argument several years ago with a guild mate. (Boy...how everyone actually seen the writing on the wall)
Anyway, he advocated death of AAA MMOS as good thing and had high hopes for Indie scene.
I told him its lot of bull.
Why:
Indie can surely bring innovation. But indie company could never pull real quality content like for example BDO, SWTOR, Division..etc. They simply do not have manpower, budget, or even skill.
So what happens now.
We have lot of good ideas, but lack of skill or budget to do them. Best that can be produced in such case are MMOs that are very thin on content or quality.
MMOs that resemble Asherons Call (when it was released) or EVE (when it was released)
These games would be great if it was 2001, but it is 2016 now, and like it or not people want to play games with today quality standards.
This is why many Indie MMOs rise as ideas, but their developments are quickly shut down.
Its kind of lose - lose situation right now.
What is needed now are small veteran companies. Like for example ones that pulled Ark.
That have manpower and experience. And are set on innovative , but smaller projects.
Unfortunately projects of grand scope, like EQN, will not happen at least for next 10, maybe more years....
It's because of all of the traditional features. No one wants tab targeting, restricted economies, etc. But they still do it. So in the end, the players that supported that can hardly keep the game alive. Why do you guys think the most sought after upcoming MMOs (all indie btw) are sandboxish in nature at the very minimum? Because they are actually making a game not from 500 B.C. that's surprisingly fun to play.
While I appreciate that some of you like and desire action MMOs. I would appreciate it if you would stop passing that opinion off as if everyone feels the same way. Not everyone is into the twitchy street fighter combat of Blade and Soul.
Time of the indie mmo eh? 90% of what I've seen is either almost purely conceptual or looks like it was designed in 2000. This article doesn't surprise me as keeping hope alive keeps food on your table. Without disgruntled vets coming here to look in vain for their idea of fun, you'd not get your required hits to stay relevant. Most mainstream gamers I mention this site to have no idea what I'm referring to.
What you don't get about those of us who aren't happy with today's choices is that we aren't looking for filler in our lives. I'm trying to find an enriching experience that captures my imagination again. I can do that by reading a great book, hiking a trail and enjoying nature, listening to a hardcore history podcast or radio lab, or playing a great game. There is competition for my time.
P.s. Grow a pair and ask a hard question next time you have a daybreak ceo at your table. How about "you often times refer to SOEs past as "our history", but it true that the new major decision makers had nothing to do with the history of SOE farther back than a year? What creative endeavors do you think will brand your new company and give you the credentials formerly possessed by SOE?"
What's dying here isn't the genre, it's the WoW clone era. And it's about dang time !
Thanks to the crowd funding phenomenon game devs can now go back to making the game of their dreams without the greedy, unimaginative suits breathing down their neck and corrupting their vision.
This is absolutely wonderful for the MMO genre.
I'm very positive about the future of MMOs and like Bill I'm looking forward to all these crowd funded titles like Camelot Unchained and Crowfall.
Not interested in non-AAA MMORPGs. Even those with best ideas, I just don't accept bad or medicore quality, polish, support, amount of hand made content and other stuff anymore. It's not 2001 anymore. Top or nothing.
It's because of all of the traditional features. No one wants tab targeting, restricted economies, etc. But they still do it. So in the end, the players that supported that can hardly keep the game alive. Why do you guys think the most sought after upcoming MMOs (all indie btw) are sandboxish in nature at the very minimum? Because they are actually making a game not from 500 B.C. that's surprisingly fun to play.
I should remind lest people forget that Blizzard could release any idea you THINK is not accepted and it will have more players than if anyone else released the same product. Point is that it is not about that at all,there are MANY actual reasons that i have observed for many years now.
Something i have known for a long time is that people are traditionally followers.They follow the hype in the door and follow everyone else out the door.Just two days ago i watched a massive Twitch subscription towards BMKibler,many likely know him.
What i saw were a couple people said they just "wanted to be a part of something",which confirmed my thoughts on how people think.You know how can total strangers who know nothing of each other start handing money over and for those on the receiving end gladly take their money,it really shows a problem with the human psyche.
Even today i noticed a game i think will be the best moba yet "Paragon" hit top 5 in Twitch,so i took a look.Sure enough the only reason most were there is they were following their accustomed twitch streamers,in this case Lirik.Point being they will follow him around no matter what game he is streaming and MANY of those will jump on the bandwagon and buy the game as well,even though they likely never even heard of the game before. Point being ,people are buying games for all the wrong reasons,no wonder we see 2 million in and then 2 million out in such quick fashion,people don't know what they want.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Not interested in non-AAA MMORPGs. Even those with best ideas, I just don't accept bad or medicore quality, polish, support, amount of hand made content and other stuff anymore. It's not 2001 anymore. Top or nothing.
If you wanted to do an article on the actual death of mmorpgs I would say consider the birth and death rate of the games much like a species of animal population. Pretty simple if your death rate is higher than your birth rate... well... it's dying or in a decline at best.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
The only MMOs that interest me right now are those that are coming to the console, Xbox One.
Why? Because the console players don't play around when it comes to quality. It either is great from the start or they lose money big time! That gives us a bit more control as players over the design of these games even for AAA titles.
You don't mess around on the console side of things and expect to survive. We actually believe one another when someone puts out a negative review and we hold onto our money when someone does that.
I got tired of the same old crap on the PC side illustrated in this article in which promise after promise was made from AAA studios where very little of those were actually developed or released only to find later on that they went back on everything to destroy the most famous of IPs out there. So it's exactly for those reasons I won't be back to the PC market anytime soon. Wake me when someone actually releases something that isn't A: a grind fest or B: a whales only club of a game.
The only MMOs that interest me right now are those that are coming to the console, Xbox One.
Why? Because the console players don't play around when it comes to quality. It either is great from the start or they lose money big time! That gives us a bit more control as players over the design of these games even for AAA titles.
You don't mess around on the console side of things and expect to survive. We actually believe one another when someone puts out a negative review and we hold onto our money when someone does that.
Nope.
None of that is right. Seriously trash on pc gets the same treatment as trash on the console. Also console mmos tend to get somewhat limited to what they can do by the hardware and most console mmos are also available on PC since an mmo's longevity is tied to the longevity of the console if its an exclusive so either the game isn't built to last or its gonna have to move to another machine which might not be worth it from a developers viewpoint.
It remains to be seen how successful any of these new indie MMOs will become. I'm hopeful for them. And, like many, am glad to see a change in design philosophies permeating the genre.
I'll tell you what I do know, though. As long as Bill Murphy keeps producing articles, people will keep coming here and hoping. BillMurphy4MMOPres.
I think the success of games like Destiny and The Division is going to influence more and more developers to add in MMO-like features and online play options, especially now that "always online" is really quite accepted in the console world.
I still think (as I always have) that there is ample room for more great console MMOs, maybe even one that is console only, designed for consoles from the start.
Yeah, and this is one I didn't even mention. Psuedo-MMO is like a gateway drug to real full world MMORPGs on consoles. And frankly, ESO is killing it on consoles. Likely will for some time.
I'd really like to see an MMO designed for console though. Games like ESO and FFXIV have done well on console and PC due to some very smart design choices that allowed the controls/gameplay to work in both environments, but having something designed from the ground up for the current generation consoles would be very interesting indeed.
I'd really like to see someone go all-in on a console MMO fully integrating something like Microsoft's Azure cloud too.
Not exactly the most popular MMO out right now, but DC Universe Online was originally design for the Playstation 3 and controllers from top to bottom, PC and mouse & keyboard controls was an after thought for DCUO. So yeah designing a MMO for a console has been done before.
When we get back from where we are going, we will return to where we were. I know people there!
I had similar argument several years ago with a guild mate. (Boy...how everyone actually seen the writing on the wall)
Anyway, he advocated death of AAA MMOS as good thing and had high hopes for Indie scene.
I told him its lot of bull.
Why:
Indie can surely bring innovation. But indie company could never pull real quality content like for example BDO, SWTOR, Division..etc. They simply do not have manpower, budget, or even skill.
So what happens now.
We have lot of good ideas, but lack of skill or budget to do them. Best that can be produced in such case are MMOs that are very thin on content or quality.
MMOs that resemble Asherons Call (when it was released) or EVE (when it was released)
These games would be great if it was 2001, but it is 2016 now, and like it or not people want to play games with today quality standards.
This is why many Indie MMOs rise as ideas, but their developments are quickly shut down.
Its kind of lose - lose situation right now.
What is needed now are small veteran companies. Like for example ones that pulled Ark.
That have manpower and experience. And are set on innovative , but smaller projects.
Unfortunately projects of grand scope, like EQN, will not happen at least for next 10, maybe more years....
The Indies will trial the innovations... and then the big fish will shamelessly pick and choose those that work in a AAA MMORPG a few years down the line.
I think Crowfall will be much bigger in player number than we are anticipating. From what i can see from their features and ideas, this will pull a lot of casuals.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
THats because the latest MMO's are only made for casual gamers that want to spend 1-2 hours per day and at the same time have full expierience of all its features
People should invest time in MMOs and people SHOULD be awarded according to the time the they spent. You want the best armor? You want to reach rank1 on something? Then grind, and stop crying.
ANd that comes from someone who wasnt fully invested in MMORPGs, for example i didnt manage to clear all raids in TBC or never managed to become exalted with AD. But i was still ivnesting a lot of time and i was RESPECTING the fact that someone else invested more time to achieve something beyond me
Its not a coinsidence that the easterns MMOrpgs that we all used to bash(and rightfully in ther most occations) have upped their quality and find more popularity lately, B& S and BD are actually very good games that do require your time. WHat i hate is the lack of armor though / costumes are something that bothers me a lot.
Make MMORGP's more time consuming and social again.
It's because of all of the traditional features. No one wants tab targeting, restricted economies, etc. But they still do it. So in the end, the players that supported that can hardly keep the game alive. Why do you guys think the most sought after upcoming MMOs (all indie btw) are sandboxish in nature at the very minimum? Because they are actually making a game not from 500 B.C. that's surprisingly fun to play.
I think it's more to do with the fact that there a lot of decent theme parks out there. People don't demand something they already have.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can you fix the tittle to "MMORPG is dying , long live the RPG and MO" ?
They stop make massively multiplayer online RPG but the old MMORPG still here , they just dying . And now we have multiplayer online with some RPG element. No massively .
Big budget MMOs failing isn't necessarily a bad thing to me. SWTOR and Wilstar had huge budgets and took many years to develop- but I really did not like the results.
I don't think any of it means the end of MMOs, I think it just means that Devs need to realize you can't just throw money and time at an MMO and expect it to be great and successful.
I think the success of games like Destiny and The Division is going to influence more and more developers to add in MMO-like features and online play options, especially now that "always online" is really quite accepted in the console world.
I still think (as I always have) that there is ample room for more great console MMOs, maybe even one that is console only, designed for consoles from the start.
I kind of agree with this. I think the future of mmo's is more games like the division and destiny. I don't like it but i think that's the way its going.
I just can't bring myself to stick at any indie games. I want good graphics, great gameplay, music to make me feel I'm really in the atmosphere and the support of a company that is really working on new content and development.
Call me a snob, but every time I've played an indie game, it just feels cheap and not worth the value of my time.
I hope the big budget companies find a way to innovate and give us something we'll enjoy and stick at to make it worth their while - but when I look at indie games I have to wonder why we seem to be regressing in terms of quality and standards.
Comments
Anyway, he advocated death of AAA MMOS as good thing and had high hopes for Indie scene.
I told him its lot of bull.
Why:
Indie can surely bring innovation. But indie company could never pull real quality content like for example BDO, SWTOR, Division..etc. They simply do not have manpower, budget, or even skill.
So what happens now.
We have lot of good ideas, but lack of skill or budget to do them. Best that can be produced in such case are MMOs that are very thin on content or quality.
MMOs that resemble Asherons Call (when it was released) or EVE (when it was released)
These games would be great if it was 2001, but it is 2016 now, and like it or not people want to play games with today quality standards.
This is why many Indie MMOs rise as ideas, but their developments are quickly shut down.
Its kind of lose - lose situation right now.
What is needed now are small veteran companies. Like for example ones that pulled Ark.
That have manpower and experience. And are set on innovative , but smaller projects.
Unfortunately projects of grand scope, like EQN, will not happen at least for next 10, maybe more years....
While I appreciate that some of you like and desire action MMOs. I would appreciate it if you would stop passing that opinion off as if everyone feels the same way. Not everyone is into the twitchy street fighter combat of Blade and Soul.
What you don't get about those of us who aren't happy with today's choices is that we aren't looking for filler in our lives. I'm trying to find an enriching experience that captures my imagination again. I can do that by reading a great book, hiking a trail and enjoying nature, listening to a hardcore history podcast or radio lab, or playing a great game. There is competition for my time.
P.s. Grow a pair and ask a hard question next time you have a daybreak ceo at your table. How about "you often times refer to SOEs past as "our history", but it true that the new major decision makers had nothing to do with the history of SOE farther back than a year? What creative endeavors do you think will brand your new company and give you the credentials formerly possessed by SOE?"
Thanks to the crowd funding phenomenon game devs can now go back to making the game of their dreams without the greedy, unimaginative suits breathing down their neck and corrupting their vision.
This is absolutely wonderful for the MMO genre.
I'm very positive about the future of MMOs and like Bill I'm looking forward to all these crowd funded titles like Camelot Unchained and Crowfall.
Point is that it is not about that at all,there are MANY actual reasons that i have observed for many years now.
Something i have known for a long time is that people are traditionally followers.They follow the hype in the door and follow everyone else out the door.Just two days ago i watched a massive Twitch subscription towards BMKibler,many likely know him.
What i saw were a couple people said they just "wanted to be a part of something",which confirmed my thoughts on how people think.You know how can total strangers who know nothing of each other start handing money over and for those on the receiving end gladly take their money,it really shows a problem with the human psyche.
Even today i noticed a game i think will be the best moba yet "Paragon" hit top 5 in Twitch,so i took a look.Sure enough the only reason most were there is they were following their accustomed twitch streamers,in this case Lirik.Point being they will follow him around no matter what game he is streaming and MANY of those will jump on the bandwagon and buy the game as well,even though they likely never even heard of the game before.
Point being ,people are buying games for all the wrong reasons,no wonder we see 2 million in and then 2 million out in such quick fashion,people don't know what they want.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Why? Because the console players don't play around when it comes to quality. It either is great from the start or they lose money big time! That gives us a bit more control as players over the design of these games even for AAA titles.
You don't mess around on the console side of things and expect to survive. We actually believe one another when someone puts out a negative review and we hold onto our money when someone does that.
I got tired of the same old crap on the PC side illustrated in this article in which promise after promise was made from AAA studios where very little of those were actually developed or released only to find later on that they went back on everything to destroy the most famous of IPs out there. So it's exactly for those reasons I won't be back to the PC market anytime soon. Wake me when someone actually releases something that isn't A: a grind fest or B: a whales only club of a game.
None of that is right.
Seriously trash on pc gets the same treatment as trash on the console.
Also console mmos tend to get somewhat limited to what they can do by the hardware and most console mmos are also available on PC since an mmo's longevity is tied to the longevity of the console if its an exclusive so either the game isn't built to last or its gonna have to move to another machine which might not be worth it from a developers viewpoint.
Way to go against the grain Bill. Now can you guys finally sticky one "MMOs are dead" thread?
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I'll tell you what I do know, though. As long as Bill Murphy keeps producing articles, people will keep coming here and hoping. BillMurphy4MMOPres.
Not exactly the most popular MMO out right now, but DC Universe Online was originally design for the Playstation 3 and controllers from top to bottom, PC and mouse & keyboard controls was an after thought for DCUO. So yeah designing a MMO for a console has been done before.
When we get back from where we are going, we will return to where we were. I know people there!
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
People should invest time in MMOs and people SHOULD be awarded according to the time the they spent. You want the best armor? You want to reach rank1 on something? Then grind, and stop crying.
ANd that comes from someone who wasnt fully invested in MMORPGs, for example i didnt manage to clear all raids in TBC or never managed to become exalted with AD. But i was still ivnesting a lot of time and i was RESPECTING the fact that someone else invested more time to achieve something beyond me Its not a coinsidence that the easterns MMOrpgs that we all used to bash(and rightfully in ther most occations) have upped their quality and find more popularity lately, B& S and BD are actually very good games that do require your time. WHat i hate is the lack of armor though / costumes are something that bothers me a lot. Make MMORGP's more time consuming and social again.
I think it's more to do with the fact that there a lot of decent theme parks out there. People don't demand something they already have.
MMOs are not MMORPGS, and I would not say "plenty" are coming out, but really only need 1 or 2 to hit the mark so should be good.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They stop make massively multiplayer online RPG but the old MMORPG still here , they just dying .
And now we have multiplayer online with some RPG element. No massively .
I don't think any of it means the end of MMOs, I think it just means that Devs need to realize you can't just throw money and time at an MMO and expect it to be great and successful.
I kind of agree with this. I think the future of mmo's is more games like the division and destiny. I don't like it but i think that's the way its going.
Call me a snob, but every time I've played an indie game, it just feels cheap and not worth the value of my time.
I hope the big budget companies find a way to innovate and give us something we'll enjoy and stick at to make it worth their while - but when I look at indie games I have to wonder why we seem to be regressing in terms of quality and standards.