The guy had no point....obvious from making up a story. 2 clues that gave him away were obviously cant do AB agaisnt his faction and he cant even remember how many people are in a team for AB? A 3rd reason was ...he cant remember the palliy's name? Ater he got killed how many times , and even went through the time to find him and look at his gear? However your point is about the gear. And to an extent this is true , but skill far outweigh gear any day of players of the same level. Sure there are cases where this does not come into play but for the most part a well organized group will do well agaisnt most any team. Now when it gets down to a well prepared epic team vs a well prepared rare team....odds do favor epics. But most of the people complaining arent complaining cause they have a well prepared group.....they are complaining because they have to do a PUG agaisnt a well prepared epic team. Of course you stand no chance, you stood no chance when you joind the pug against a team on TS or ventrillo who do these BG's 24/7. Gear istn as big a problem as most make it out to be , its the unorganized pickup groups that is the real problem. NOw you are ifghting organization and gear....nto much of a chance there.
Yeah, you're right PUGS suck. Organization is important. Vent is important. Guild runs are important. But when it comes to 1 on 1... that's a different story. 1 epic geared rogue with full bloodfang vs a devilsaur rogue or something...no matter how quick this devilsaur rogue is, his attacks are gonna miss or dodged and parried by the other rogue because his agility far exeeds the non epic rogue. Therefore, gear still outweigh your skills. Although, it is true that skills are important...but most of the time you don't really need any skills because you'll be downloading so many add ons that help you in PVP. Add ons like cooldown timer and alerts. What they do is tell you exactly when to vanish for a rogue if you are that much of a noob or they tell you how long you can stun lock your opponent. Some tell you how long you are stun locked for so you know when the exact time you can put gouge on your opponent. Spell Alert tells you what your opponent is casting so you can prepare yourself in advance. But really, you have to admit gear is important. It is just skills + gear make you God. Gear but not a lot of skills makes you Elite. No gear and skills makes you noob. Well, if you want to match the status of other players you better start spending a lot of time raiding with guilds to get your gear otherwise you'll get WTFPWN.
Originally posted by ridenar Originally posted by Erethorn I quit WOW for the very same reason. You kids either don't want to understand or are unable to understand this: the people complaining about the time spent ingame / actual skill imbalance don't want to be uber without work. We want a game were you have a fair chance of being succesful because of our skill. In WOW you stand NO chance at succes in PVP unless you spend countless hours farming the instances. You know that, you just don't understand what it means. Unfortunately for you, you don't know what the taste of victory, the real taste, the real feeling of acomplishment is. It's the taste you get in GW after you manage to defeat the opposing team because of your skillful choice of builds, because of your teamwork, because of being able to anticipate and cleverly counter the opponent's build and tactics. In WOW the feeling is more like "woot, I'm so uber, I two shot that guy with my legendary uber sword of uberness, I'm so better than him". Let me ask you a question: what if blizzard changed the rules of PvP so that: 1. everyone enters the battlegrounds with the same equipment, standard armor and weapons, equal for all players. 2. The PvP ranking is based not on the total number of kills, but on the kill/deaths ratio, so that a guy who PvP-ed for an hour and had 30 kills and 5 deaths ranks better than the guy who played for 8 hours and had 300 kills and 250 deaths. Do you think the current PvP rankings would change ? Do you think the same guys would be on top of the server rankings ? What do you think, would YOUR ranking go up or down ?
Sorry guys all I see here is more I would have a chance to win in PVP as a casual player if gear was an even field... explain that one to me again... you play now and again and you come across someone who pvp's 40 hours a week, you both have the same gear and YOU are going to win cause you have a well thought out strategy... time to get a clue I think. I know 20 years olds hate kids in epics because they can farm gear 12 hours a day and wipe the floor with you in PVP has it even occured that playing the game that much might actually make them a good pvper? So for all your 'They only win because of the gear' comments, given a skill system, you play now and again and they play 40 hours a week who's gonna have the most skill? ain't gonna be you now is it. chances are they could take their epics off and still wipe the floor with you.
Well ridenar, here's your clue: WOW PvP requires no skill, only the right gear. Understanding how to play your class at level 60 is a matter of two weeks of casual play most. If it takes you longer than that you are retarded.
Your argument is that even with the same gear, the guy who plays 40 hours a week will still beat the one who plays 10 hours. Because, you say, playing a lot builds your skill. Which could be true for a lot of other games, but not for WOW in it's current state. You fail to realize that doing something that requires no skill for a long time doesn't improve your skill at it Siting on a chair 20 hours a day won't make you skilled in siting on a chair. Lifting a feather won't build your muscles, because it doesn't require any muscle - anyone can lift it. PvP-ing in WoW doesn't build your skills at PvP, because it requires less and less skill the more you do it. Once you get your epics it doesn't require skill at all.
Originally posted by Erethorn I quit WOW for the very same reason. You kids either don't want to understand or are unable to understand this: the people complaining about the time spent ingame / actual skill imbalance don't want to be uber without work. We want a game were you have a fair chance of being succesful because of our skill. In WOW you stand NO chance at succes in PVP unless you spend countless hours farming the instances. You know that, you just don't understand what it means. Unfortunately for you, you don't know what the taste of victory, the real taste, the real feeling of acomplishment is. It's the taste you get in GW after you manage to defeat the opposing team because of your skillful choice of builds, because of your teamwork, because of being able to anticipate and cleverly counter the opponent's build and tactics. In WOW the feeling is more like "woot, I'm so uber, I two shot that guy with my legendary uber sword of uberness, I'm so better than him". Let me ask you a question: what if blizzard changed the rules of PvP so that: 1. everyone enters the battlegrounds with the same equipment, standard armor and weapons, equal for all players. 2. The PvP ranking is based not on the total number of kills, but on the kill/deaths ratio, so that a guy who PvP-ed for an hour and had 30 kills and 5 deaths ranks better than the guy who played for 8 hours and had 300 kills and 250 deaths. Do you think the current PvP rankings would change ? Do you think the same guys would be on top of the server rankings ? What do you think, would YOUR ranking go up or down ?
Sorry guys all I see here is more I would have a chance to win in PVP as a casual player if gear was an even field... explain that one to me again... you play now and again and you come across someone who pvp's 40 hours a week, you both have the same gear and YOU are going to win cause you have a well thought out strategy... time to get a clue I think. I know 20 years olds hate kids in epics because they can farm gear 12 hours a day and wipe the floor with you in PVP has it even occured that playing the game that much might actually make them a good pvper? So for all your 'They only win because of the gear' comments, given a skill system, you play now and again and they play 40 hours a week who's gonna have the most skill? ain't gonna be you now is it. chances are they could take their epics off and still wipe the floor with you.
Well ridenar, here's your clue: WOW PvP requires no skill, only the right gear. Understanding how to play your class at level 60 is a matter of two weeks of casual play most. If it takes you longer than that you are retarded.
Your argument is that even with the same gear, the guy who plays 40 hours a week will still beat the one who plays 10 hours. Because, you say, playing a lot builds your skill. Which could be true for a lot of other games, but not for WOW in it's current state. You fail to realize that doing something that requires no skill for a long time doesn't improve your skill at it Siting on a chair 20 hours a day won't make you skilled in siting on a chair. Lifting a feather won't build your muscles, because it doesn't require any muscle - anyone can lift it. PvP-ing in WoW doesn't build your skills at PvP, because it requires less and less skill the more you do it. Once you get your epics it doesn't require skill at all.
To be good and win constantly over your opponents....takes skill. I dont care what game you play.....it takes skill to be the best. And no Im not talkign about just playing hours andhours to rank up, im tlakign about having organized groups who can function well as a team. And a team who can ultimately lose to next to no one.
But yeah....no amount of time in the world gives a person skill. either you will have it or you wont. Like I said before the main enemy of the casual gamer is organization.
My son is 12, level 60, and decked. Took him a YEAR.
Now, he goes to school everyday for 7 hours, hangs out with friends now and again (and not on MMOs), is an A-student, has a set bedtime on school nights, and is allowed to play "x" amount of hours a day, MAX. Usually about 2-4 (occassionally 6 hours on a weekend if he is doing a long raid, but then he ahs to log). And he doesn't play everyday.
Took him a year to get level 60 and get decked. Took him a MONTH just to get the time and group that would last to get his Epic Charger.
And when I played WoW (he and I are currently trying out DAoC because even he is sick of the raid, raid, raid level 60 crap from Blizzard), he would own me in PvP.
I am 33, he is 12.
Don't always assume the "kids" sit home and play all day. Sure, some do. Some, like my son, don't.
Did it take that 13 year old 2-3 months to get all that, or a year like my son?
Sure, in the responsibilities of RL, a 12 or 13 year old will comparatively have more time to play than a 25 or 33 year old with bills to pay, food to buy, cars to maintain, et cetera.
Just as we had more time to play that Atari, Coleco Vision, Intellivision, Sega, Nintendo, Playstation, et cetera in our youth than we do now.
That's a great thing about childhood.
I find these: "OMFG, I quit because a kid beat me" to be extremely shallow and immature. Being older does not make you Uber at games.
I also find the blanketed claims that all these kids just sit at home and play, play, play without a life to be BS, unless you personally know said kid and can say it with truth.
Personally, I know more ADULTS than kids that sit around every spare moment and grind and live in these MMOs.
And for kids that do play ad nauseum, do you know why? Are they kids whose parents work all hours and after school they are left to their own devices at 12 or 13 or so? If so, I'm glad they play, then, as opposed to running the streets and potentially getting sucked into far worse!
Are they children of parents who believe TV and Video Games are a substitute for actually spending TIME with your children? Or parents who just don't care what their kids do? If so, complain about the lack of parenting.
WoW is a loot-is-king game. Period. It doesn't take a lot of effort to know that even before buying the game and logging in. Any number of sites expain that. If RL doesn't allow you to compete, as mine doesn't, either don't play WoW, or deal with it if you choose to do so.
But this is like hating a Little League Player because you LOVE baseball and he is better at it than you.
The OP started saying that minus gear his Dwarf Warrior would be exaclty the same as every other 60 Dwarf warrior. Struck me as amazing that he managed to make it all the way to 60 without learning anything about talent trees . . . .
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Originally posted by ridenar I think he may have been refering to warrior having a 'build of the month' . so most PVP warriors at 60 have pretty much the same PVP talents (going by the PVP warriors I know). It weird when I think about this. SWG had it so right. No levels, no fixed classes, the ability to dable... and they changed it all to try to become a WOW clone. Imagine coming up against a master warrior (no levels) and then thinking ok where does this guy dable? has he got a warrior/rogue build? a warrior druid? warrior priest? a warrior/priest/mage combo build? imagine how different we would all be.....
Nah in SWG ....youd know he was a TK/sword/fencer/medic of some sort and you were fucked if you werent too. And If he wasnt, you knew it was pwn time. All SWG had to do to that damn game though was balance it up a bit, not allow everyone to get the best of each tree.....what do they do? Turn the game upside down in to teh suck. Personaly I havent played since the space expansion but after 2+ years of no balance....said screw it.
Even with the varied skill trees, you still had the majority of combat players going into 2 to 3 builds. If it wasn't some TKM build, it was Fencer/x or Rifleman/CM. Conceptually, SWG had a good idea. In practice, there really wasn't that much difference from a class system. And, it only resulted in the mountains of bugs, imbalances, and varied issues.
I'll take WoW's class system any day over SWG.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by ridenar I'd just like to see the class choices mixed up a bit. would be alot better than frost spec mage shadow spec priest every time I encounter another class in end game PVP I know pretty much 100% what their spc is gonna be. I'd like to have more (???) in my mind through class dabiling. I shouldn't be able to read a player like a book from 30 feet but we all can.
Yeah, I agree it would more fun....like ico said though pvp ends up destroying any kind of balance. If you did add more options , In the end it still wouldnt matter, you would meet the same players due to the uber template at the time unfortunately.
SWG, CoH, DAoC....each of these games give you exceptional customization of your character's abilities. And yet 95% of players follow a "cookie cutter" build for whatever they plan to do with their character (PvP, traditional PvE, AoE PvE grinding, crafting, whatever). Is it really the fault of the designers that most of their players are mindless sheep that are unwilling to try anything different? Yes, and no.
The reason that cookie cutter builds become established is that they are proven to be effective at something. They are also generally build that a player of average skill can do well with. Innovative builds sometimes take far more skill to do well with, and when two players of the highest skill levels go head to head in some cases the one with the cookie cutter build will consistently do better. So in some cases the game designers are to blame for not balanciing the options well against eachother.
However, the community is also often to blame. If you are the type of player that likes to try out different builds and tinker around, you know that there are many more viable builds than most players realize in any given game (at least in the ones I'm familar with, that has always been the case). However, often if you play an uncommon build high end guilds or groups don't want to give you a chance. The ones that do will often express amazement that you can do so well with a "gimpy" build. So there is often a lot of potential for character customization that is untapped by the majority of players in any given game, and real community inertia in favour of common builds.
More on topic, a Warrior can be quite effective in PvP with either an Arms heavy or Fury heavy build. I've seen it happen. Most protection warriors I know are more into Raiding than PvP, but I would imagine that even a protection warrior could do well in PvP versus certain opponents. Just because most players use the same build doesn't mean it's the only one that's viable.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Originally posted by ridenar I'm kind of sick of posts that goOMG I lost because kids in the game have all the time in the world to play and farm epic gear"......<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Lets say Bliz take pity on your kind and hand out Epic's and Legendary items like toffees so gear is essentially a level playing field. The players that pvp 40 hours a week are still going to pawn players that pvp 5 hours a week and always will. You dont play 40 hours a week and not learn a thing or two. It's not unfair it's a reflection of real life..... If myself and a friend start playing Pool at the same time, and I practice for 5 hours a week and he practices for 40 hours a week, and after 3 months we have a few matches. He's going to pawn me every time... Look at it in reverse... Why should a player who only plays now and again be able to beat a player that lives and breaths the game? Now that would be unfair and unbalanced.
As a casual gamer thats constantlly getting pawned on the battlefields i have to agree with you. The ones that spend the time and effort deserve the rewards although.....there should be fun for the casual gamers as well.
Games like wow shouldn't cater to one type of player considering the reality that there are so many different types. But to be honest...as a lvl 29 unter with pretty average equiptment there hasn't been any lack of it. The out of instance pvp has made up for it and not every visit to a BF ends with getting killed 10 times in a row.....plenty of days even with average skill and equiptment i do my share of killing.
Guess the op is just sick of it for whatever reason. prolly because there's nothing new and exciting to take a break to.
- Quests were broke. Rites of Vision and other quests were broke in nearly every server, even the new servers.
- Nearly every creature became a "creep" to easily. If that get stock on the log or something, they automatically start recovering health and evading.
- Quest were made harder like the Gnomeregan. There use to be 2 to 3 Dark Irons Dwarves, now they are 4 and it nearly impossible to beat them thanks to their mines that do +600 damage. Sometimes, there will be 3 Dark Iron Dwarves and 1 Peacebot standing with them. WTF?!
- Many of areas are half-empty. Places like Red Ridge no longer have have huge amount of people in that area like to use to in the past.
- Few people are doing Endgame instance. Yep, that's right. Less people are doing endgame content due to class pigeonholing and unfairness of item disturbing. PUGs and Guilds on the Alliance side telling Paladins they can't roll on certain items. While I understand paladin's shouldn't be rolling on Warrior Gear, but denying a Paladin from rolling on Azure Mageblade by a mage is insult.
- Lastly, class imbalance. Blizzard has tried to pigeonhole Paladins as backline healers, buffers and cleansers with no intention of making them tanks. A good chunk of paladin players left, especially Paladins of the Protection tree, which got nerfed to hell. After the paladin population took a good blow, a Blizzard executive appear telling us we are going to get improvements to our tanking (even thought they said they weren't going to make any more changes to the Paladin class.), but this still didn't go well because noted that a Druid will be a better tank then a paladin. Now the Paladins are arguing over how bad the seal and judgment system is. (which it is mind you.) Come patch 1.10, paladin will be inferior the other class that can heal as they are getting an update to their healing.
PvP
- Twinks have ruin lower level pvp. With no level restriction on enchantments, a character can go in PvP and lay waste to several players before being taken down him/herself. Some of the twinked players have achieved high ranks such as Master Sergeants at level 29.
- The level margin needs to be narrow. A level 10 can co-exist in BG with level 19 players. This is also one of the reason why the Alliance loses so much because they have a greater number of low level players.
- They killed off World PvP by having civilians attack players now, ensuring Dishonorable Kills.
- Players sometimes DK during BG raids, making players wary of PUG raid groups
- Ganking has become such a huge problem since I left the first time, many PvP servers have had an exodus of players leave their servers for green pastures. (They left to play on PvE and RP server.) Now most of the PvP servers have a low populations.
- The PvP Gear is inferior to the gear obtained in PvE. Paladin's Field Marshal Set is worse than his Judgment Armor set. The PvP Paladin armor set offers more critical hit, strength and stamina then intellect or spell bonus. It's nigh identical to the Warrior's PvP set in status. The only thing that separates them is their set bonuses.
- Except for the PvP gear, none of the pvp goodies appeal to any of the class except maybe the warrior, rogue, or hunter. There are no strength, intellect or agility capes.
- PvP gear and goodies are not free. You have to have your money ready when you finally reach your highest rank. Even if you reach FM rank at level 30, you still need 20g pieces to buy a weapon or piece of equipment.
- PvP Battleground endorses unhealth lifestyles. You have to spend 20 hours a day pvping to prevent your players from lowering in rank. Many players have relieve they had to spend a whole week vacation with very few sleep trying to achieve the FM rank only to be disappointed by the bad pvp gear. Also like PvE, once you've done everything and gotten everything, there isn't much to look forward too.
- Lastly, class imbalance. This is still an issue. Paladins, Warlocks and Hunters are the three new overpowered class in the game. The Shaman ckass hasn't changed for those wondering. Come Patch 1.10 Priest will be "rejoining" the rank of the elite class. Mage are said to be getting a major make over to their talents as well.
You can see why I left from the looks of things. Blizzard is still updating their content, but not fixing it. They are angrying their player base pigeonholing or ignoring the needs of players leaving a lot matter unresolved, people bitter and accounts cancelled. There isn't enough staff to maintain the growing problems of the game, yet they still continue to move forwards and make the world larger. Blizzard really does need to take a time out, wait till they get more hands on staff and fix current issue with the game. While they are at, they need to listen to players and compromise a way to bring balance to class because right now the class imbalance issue is a huge problem plaguing the classes of WoW over bugs and achieving high dps.
Originally posted by Yeebo SWG, CoH, DAoC....each of these games give you exceptional customization of your character's abilities. And yet 95% of players follow a "cookie cutter" build for whatever they plan to do with their character (PvP, traditional PvE, AoE PvE grinding, crafting, whatever). Is it really the fault of the designers that most of their players are mindless sheep that are unwilling to try anything different? Yes, and no.The reason that cookie cutter builds become established is that they are proven to be effective at something. They are also generally build that a player of average skill can do well with. Innovative builds sometimes take far more skill to do well with, and when two players of the highest skill levels go head to head in some cases the one with the cookie cutter build will consistently do better. So in some cases the game designers are to blame for not balanciing the options well against eachother.
I agree that it is the faults of the designers for the cookie cutter gameplay we experiencing. The Warrior's stance system, Beserker Stance, Overpowered, Tactical Mastery and the Arms and Fury tree talent tree is big good example of how several key factors involving Warrior skills and talent influence players decision to make certain builds. Because of the pros and cons of the stance system, Warriors use one stance that favors their gameplay.
Unfortunately, the stance system isn't flexible towards skills, the rage gauge, or talent trees. Warriors cannot be tanks and dps at the same time nor can they switch stances without losing all or some of their rage, decrease their dps. Stances are the biggest hinder to Warriors. Stance should be like the Aspects are to the Hunter, but free to use. Skills should be universal and have more of an impact based on what stance you are in. For example, Mongoose strike increase dodging chance, thus ensure more Mongoose Bites, but this didn't stop the Hunter from using Mongoose strike when the Hunter wasn't using Aspect of the Monkey.
By end game most Warrior go directly from PvE to PvP so most Warriors decide it better to start making a pvp spec from the get go, instead of wasting money on respeccing later. When consider what the warrior will have to face in pvp and what the talent trees have to offer. a warrior knows he/she will need to increase their physical damage out, modify his/she overpower so it'll be more effective against Hunters or Rogues (two classes known for dodging a lot.) and increase their critical hits. The only two trees that is Arms, which is increase weapon damage and Fury tree, which talent increases criticals and modify berserker stance skills. Protection only increases the threat produced and if they want to increase their Defensive stance skills as well survivalbility.
Because Two weapons do the most damage on criticals, Warrior choose to use Berseker Stance most of the time because it adds to criticals and it allows for them to use Intercept, which is like charge minus that it doesn't lose it usefulness after being used. Berserker stance also comes with anti-fear sklls like Berserker Rage. Warrior will only use Battle Stance to perfom a Overpower when up against frequent dodgers, but they'll need tactical mastery. Unfortunately, in return, Warriors lose survivalibility, produce mediocre threat when in Defensive stance in PvE and versatility of stances. A Protection Warrior loses out equal as he does less White damage, but increase his tanking abilities and slight increase survivalibility, but the biggest reason why Protection Warriors and Defensive stance are so under used in PvP is because they can't use hamstring with Defensive stance to reduce the opponent mobility while at the same time they can use charge or intercept to mobilize themselves. Most of the class in the game have advantage at range and will stand to fight a warrior with a shield.
Thus, you end up having a lot people using Arms/Fury to increase their white damage, using axes to increase their critical chance and use Berserker stance for mobility. In order for people to stop making less cookie cutter builds, they need make the skills universal, take out the rage gauge penalty for changing stances, remove tactical mastery and change the talent trees to increase: Weapon damage, support skills (shouts and trigger talents) and surivability.
Originally posted by Yeebo However, the community is also often to blame. If you are the type of player that likes to try out different builds and tinker around, you know that there are many more viable builds than most players realize in any given game (at least in the ones I'm familar with, that has always been the case). However, often if you play an uncommon build high end guilds or groups don't want to give you a chance. The ones that do will often express amazement that you can do so well with a "gimpy" build. So there is often a lot of potential for character customization that is untapped by the majority of players in any given game, and real community inertia in favour of common builds.More on topic, a Warrior can be quite effective in PvP with either an Arms heavy or Fury heavy build. I've seen it happen. Most protection warriors I know are more into Raiding than PvP, but I would imagine that even a protection warrior could do well in PvP versus certain opponents. Just because most players use the same build doesn't mean it's the only one that's viable.
Nope, a Arms/Fury warrior will have trouble holding aggro or steal aggro a Protection Paladin. A Protection warrior has no mobility or no way to reduce his/her opponent so in battle so can't keep the margin between them and the opponent for long. So not just any warrior build can perfom well in all aspects.
[quote]Originally posted by CaptainRPG [b][quote] Nope, a Arms/Fury warrior will have trouble holding aggro or steal aggro a Protection Paladin. A Protection warrior has no mobility or no way to reduce his/her opponent so in battle so can't keep the margin between them and the opponent for long. So not just any warrior build can perfom well in all aspects.[/b][/quote]
I never said a protection spec warrior could do as well in PvP as a high damage build, that's just silly. "Do OK versus some opponents" is a pretty limted statement if you think about it.
No not all builds are just as good at everything, I agree. That's the entire point of talent trees after all. And the entire misunderstanding that we are having just further illustrates that the OP is on crack. Not all 60 dwarf warriors are identical except for gear.
Someone else argued that what he meant to say was that all warriors that do PvP have identical builds and thus are effectivley identical except for gear. Even if it were true, that wouldn't really be the fault of the game designers since I've seen both Arms and Fury warriors do quite well in PvP (that's all I was trying to say). Of course since the OP never said that in the first place, I'm not sure why I even bothered to respond.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Comments
Yeah, you're right PUGS suck. Organization is important. Vent is important. Guild runs are important. But when it comes to 1 on 1... that's a different story. 1 epic geared rogue with full bloodfang vs a devilsaur rogue or something...no matter how quick this devilsaur rogue is, his attacks are gonna miss or dodged and parried by the other rogue because his agility far exeeds the non epic rogue. Therefore, gear still outweigh your skills. Although, it is true that skills are important...but most of the time you don't really need any skills because you'll be downloading so many add ons that help you in PVP. Add ons like cooldown timer and alerts. What they do is tell you exactly when to vanish for a rogue if you are that much of a noob or they tell you how long you can stun lock your opponent. Some tell you how long you are stun locked for so you know when the exact time you can put gouge on your opponent. Spell Alert tells you what your opponent is casting so you can prepare yourself in advance. But really, you have to admit gear is important. It is just skills + gear make you God. Gear but not a lot of skills makes you Elite. No gear and skills makes you noob. Well, if you want to match the status of other players you better start spending a lot of time raiding with guilds to get your gear otherwise you'll get WTFPWN.
WoW = Ultimate n00b Fest
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What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Game On!
Well ridenar, here's your clue: WOW PvP requires no skill, only the right gear. Understanding how to play your class at level 60 is a matter of two weeks of casual play most. If it takes you longer than that you are retarded.
Your argument is that even with the same gear, the guy who plays 40 hours a week will still beat the one who plays 10 hours. Because, you say, playing a lot builds your skill. Which could be true for a lot of other games, but not for WOW in it's current state. You fail to realize that doing something that requires no skill for a long time doesn't improve your skill at it Siting on a chair 20 hours a day won't make you skilled in siting on a chair. Lifting a feather won't build your muscles, because it doesn't require any muscle - anyone can lift it. PvP-ing in WoW doesn't build your skills at PvP, because it requires less and less skill the more you do it. Once you get your epics it doesn't require skill at all.
Well ridenar, here's your clue: WOW PvP requires no skill, only the right gear. Understanding how to play your class at level 60 is a matter of two weeks of casual play most. If it takes you longer than that you are retarded.
Your argument is that even with the same gear, the guy who plays 40 hours a week will still beat the one who plays 10 hours. Because, you say, playing a lot builds your skill. Which could be true for a lot of other games, but not for WOW in it's current state. You fail to realize that doing something that requires no skill for a long time doesn't improve your skill at it Siting on a chair 20 hours a day won't make you skilled in siting on a chair. Lifting a feather won't build your muscles, because it doesn't require any muscle - anyone can lift it. PvP-ing in WoW doesn't build your skills at PvP, because it requires less and less skill the more you do it. Once you get your epics it doesn't require skill at all.
To be good and win constantly over your opponents....takes skill. I dont care what game you play.....it takes skill to be the best. And no Im not talkign about just playing hours andhours to rank up, im tlakign about having organized groups who can function well as a team. And a team who can ultimately lose to next to no one.
But yeah....no amount of time in the world gives a person skill. either you will have it or you wont. Like I said before the main enemy of the casual gamer is organization.
My son is 12, level 60, and decked. Took him a YEAR.
Now, he goes to school everyday for 7 hours, hangs out with friends now and again (and not on MMOs), is an A-student, has a set bedtime on school nights, and is allowed to play "x" amount of hours a day, MAX. Usually about 2-4 (occassionally 6 hours on a weekend if he is doing a long raid, but then he ahs to log). And he doesn't play everyday.
Took him a year to get level 60 and get decked. Took him a MONTH just to get the time and group that would last to get his Epic Charger.
And when I played WoW (he and I are currently trying out DAoC because even he is sick of the raid, raid, raid level 60 crap from Blizzard), he would own me in PvP.
I am 33, he is 12.
Don't always assume the "kids" sit home and play all day. Sure, some do. Some, like my son, don't.
Did it take that 13 year old 2-3 months to get all that, or a year like my son?
Sure, in the responsibilities of RL, a 12 or 13 year old will comparatively have more time to play than a 25 or 33 year old with bills to pay, food to buy, cars to maintain, et cetera.
Just as we had more time to play that Atari, Coleco Vision, Intellivision, Sega, Nintendo, Playstation, et cetera in our youth than we do now.
That's a great thing about childhood.
I find these: "OMFG, I quit because a kid beat me" to be extremely shallow and immature. Being older does not make you Uber at games.
I also find the blanketed claims that all these kids just sit at home and play, play, play without a life to be BS, unless you personally know said kid and can say it with truth.
Personally, I know more ADULTS than kids that sit around every spare moment and grind and live in these MMOs.
And for kids that do play ad nauseum, do you know why? Are they kids whose parents work all hours and after school they are left to their own devices at 12 or 13 or so? If so, I'm glad they play, then, as opposed to running the streets and potentially getting sucked into far worse!
Are they children of parents who believe TV and Video Games are a substitute for actually spending TIME with your children? Or parents who just don't care what their kids do? If so, complain about the lack of parenting.
WoW is a loot-is-king game. Period. It doesn't take a lot of effort to know that even before buying the game and logging in. Any number of sites expain that. If RL doesn't allow you to compete, as mine doesn't, either don't play WoW, or deal with it if you choose to do so.
But this is like hating a Little League Player because you LOVE baseball and he is better at it than you.
Pathetic.
The OP started saying that minus gear his Dwarf Warrior would be exaclty the same as every other 60 Dwarf warrior. Struck me as amazing that he managed to make it all the way to 60 without learning anything about talent trees . . . .
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I think he may have been refering to warrior having a 'build of the month' .
so most PVP warriors at 60 have pretty much the same PVP talents (going by the PVP warriors I know).
It weird when I think about this. SWG had it so right.
No levels, no fixed classes, the ability to dable... and they changed it all to try to become a WOW clone.
Imagine coming up against a master warrior (no levels) and then thinking ok where does this guy dable?
has he got a warrior/rogue build?
a warrior druid?
warrior priest?
a warrior/priest/mage combo build?
imagine how different we would all be.....
I'd just like to see the class choices mixed up a bit.
would be alot better than
frost spec mage
shadow spec priest
every time I encounter another class in end game PVP I know pretty much 100% what their spc is gonna be.
I'd like to have more (???) in my mind through class dabiling.
I shouldn't be able to read a player like a book from 30 feet but we all can.
Lol, SWG. Yeah, that was a great game.
Even with the varied skill trees, you still had the majority of combat players going into 2 to 3 builds. If it wasn't some TKM build, it was Fencer/x or Rifleman/CM. Conceptually, SWG had a good idea. In practice, there really wasn't that much difference from a class system. And, it only resulted in the mountains of bugs, imbalances, and varied issues.
I'll take WoW's class system any day over SWG.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Many quit WoW , but, they all come back! Mainly there is nothing out there worth playing anymore
SWG, CoH, DAoC....each of these games give you exceptional customization of your character's abilities. And yet 95% of players follow a "cookie cutter" build for whatever they plan to do with their character (PvP, traditional PvE, AoE PvE grinding, crafting, whatever). Is it really the fault of the designers that most of their players are mindless sheep that are unwilling to try anything different? Yes, and no.
The reason that cookie cutter builds become established is that they are proven to be effective at something. They are also generally build that a player of average skill can do well with. Innovative builds sometimes take far more skill to do well with, and when two players of the highest skill levels go head to head in some cases the one with the cookie cutter build will consistently do better. So in some cases the game designers are to blame for not balanciing the options well against eachother.
However, the community is also often to blame. If you are the type of player that likes to try out different builds and tinker around, you know that there are many more viable builds than most players realize in any given game (at least in the ones I'm familar with, that has always been the case). However, often if you play an uncommon build high end guilds or groups don't want to give you a chance. The ones that do will often express amazement that you can do so well with a "gimpy" build. So there is often a lot of potential for character customization that is untapped by the majority of players in any given game, and real community inertia in favour of common builds.
More on topic, a Warrior can be quite effective in PvP with either an Arms heavy or Fury heavy build. I've seen it happen. Most protection warriors I know are more into Raiding than PvP, but I would imagine that even a protection warrior could do well in PvP versus certain opponents. Just because most players use the same build doesn't mean it's the only one that's viable.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
As a casual gamer thats constantlly getting pawned on the battlefields i have to agree with you. The ones that spend the time and effort deserve the rewards although.....there should be fun for the casual gamers as well.
Games like wow shouldn't cater to one type of player considering the reality that there are so many different types. But to be honest...as a lvl 29 unter with pretty average equiptment there hasn't been any lack of it. The out of instance pvp has made up for it and not every visit to a BF ends with getting killed 10 times in a row.....plenty of days even with average skill and equiptment i do my share of killing.
Guess the op is just sick of it for whatever reason. prolly because there's nothing new and exciting to take a break to.
I quit too for a number of reasons.
PvE
- Quests were broke. Rites of Vision and other quests were broke in nearly every server, even the new servers.
- Nearly every creature became a "creep" to easily. If that get stock on the log or something, they automatically start recovering health and evading.
- Quest were made harder like the Gnomeregan. There use to be 2 to 3 Dark Irons Dwarves, now they are 4 and it nearly impossible to beat them thanks to their mines that do +600 damage. Sometimes, there will be 3 Dark Iron Dwarves and 1 Peacebot standing with them. WTF?!
- Many of areas are half-empty. Places like Red Ridge no longer have have huge amount of people in that area like to use to in the past.
- Few people are doing Endgame instance. Yep, that's right. Less people are doing endgame content due to class pigeonholing and unfairness of item disturbing. PUGs and Guilds on the Alliance side telling Paladins they can't roll on certain items. While I understand paladin's shouldn't be rolling on Warrior Gear, but denying a Paladin from rolling on Azure Mageblade by a mage is insult.
- Lastly, class imbalance. Blizzard has tried to pigeonhole Paladins as backline healers, buffers and cleansers with no intention of making them tanks. A good chunk of paladin players left, especially Paladins of the Protection tree, which got nerfed to hell. After the paladin population took a good blow, a Blizzard executive appear telling us we are going to get improvements to our tanking (even thought they said they weren't going to make any more changes to the Paladin class.), but this still didn't go well because noted that a Druid will be a better tank then a paladin. Now the Paladins are arguing over how bad the seal and judgment system is. (which it is mind you.) Come patch 1.10, paladin will be inferior the other class that can heal as they are getting an update to their healing.
PvP
- Twinks have ruin lower level pvp. With no level restriction on enchantments, a character can go in PvP and lay waste to several players before being taken down him/herself. Some of the twinked players have achieved high ranks such as Master Sergeants at level 29.
- The level margin needs to be narrow. A level 10 can co-exist in BG with level 19 players. This is also one of the reason why the Alliance loses so much because they have a greater number of low level players.
- They killed off World PvP by having civilians attack players now, ensuring Dishonorable Kills.
- Players sometimes DK during BG raids, making players wary of PUG raid groups
- Ganking has become such a huge problem since I left the first time, many PvP servers have had an exodus of players leave their servers for green pastures. (They left to play on PvE and RP server.) Now most of the PvP servers have a low populations.
- The PvP Gear is inferior to the gear obtained in PvE. Paladin's Field Marshal Set is worse than his Judgment Armor set. The PvP Paladin armor set offers more critical hit, strength and stamina then intellect or spell bonus. It's nigh identical to the Warrior's PvP set in status. The only thing that separates them is their set bonuses.
- Except for the PvP gear, none of the pvp goodies appeal to any of the class except maybe the warrior, rogue, or hunter. There are no strength, intellect or agility capes.
- PvP gear and goodies are not free. You have to have your money ready when you finally reach your highest rank. Even if you reach FM rank at level 30, you still need 20g pieces to buy a weapon or piece of equipment.
- PvP Battleground endorses unhealth lifestyles. You have to spend 20 hours a day pvping to prevent your players from lowering in rank. Many players have relieve they had to spend a whole week vacation with very few sleep trying to achieve the FM rank only to be disappointed by the bad pvp gear. Also like PvE, once you've done everything and gotten everything, there isn't much to look forward too.
- Lastly, class imbalance. This is still an issue. Paladins, Warlocks and Hunters are the three new overpowered class in the game. The Shaman ckass hasn't changed for those wondering. Come Patch 1.10 Priest will be "rejoining" the rank of the elite class. Mage are said to be getting a major make over to their talents as well.
You can see why I left from the looks of things. Blizzard is still updating their content, but not fixing it. They are angrying their player base pigeonholing or ignoring the needs of players leaving a lot matter unresolved, people bitter and accounts cancelled. There isn't enough staff to maintain the growing problems of the game, yet they still continue to move forwards and make the world larger. Blizzard really does need to take a time out, wait till they get more hands on staff and fix current issue with the game. While they are at, they need to listen to players and compromise a way to bring balance to class because right now the class imbalance issue is a huge problem plaguing the classes of WoW over bugs and achieving high dps.
I agree that it is the faults of the designers for the cookie cutter gameplay we experiencing. The Warrior's stance system, Beserker Stance, Overpowered, Tactical Mastery and the Arms and Fury tree talent tree is big good example of how several key factors involving Warrior skills and talent influence players decision to make certain builds. Because of the pros and cons of the stance system, Warriors use one stance that favors their gameplay.
Unfortunately, the stance system isn't flexible towards skills, the rage gauge, or talent trees. Warriors cannot be tanks and dps at the same time nor can they switch stances without losing all or some of their rage, decrease their dps. Stances are the biggest hinder to Warriors. Stance should be like the Aspects are to the Hunter, but free to use. Skills should be universal and have more of an impact based on what stance you are in. For example, Mongoose strike increase dodging chance, thus ensure more Mongoose Bites, but this didn't stop the Hunter from using Mongoose strike when the Hunter wasn't using Aspect of the Monkey.
By end game most Warrior go directly from PvE to PvP so most Warriors decide it better to start making a pvp spec from the get go, instead of wasting money on respeccing later. When consider what the warrior will have to face in pvp and what the talent trees have to offer. a warrior knows he/she will need to increase their physical damage out, modify his/she overpower so it'll be more effective against Hunters or Rogues (two classes known for dodging a lot.) and increase their critical hits. The only two trees that is Arms, which is increase weapon damage and Fury tree, which talent increases criticals and modify berserker stance skills. Protection only increases the threat produced and if they want to increase their Defensive stance skills as well survivalbility.
Because Two weapons do the most damage on criticals, Warrior choose to use Berseker Stance most of the time because it adds to criticals and it allows for them to use Intercept, which is like charge minus that it doesn't lose it usefulness after being used. Berserker stance also comes with anti-fear sklls like Berserker Rage. Warrior will only use Battle Stance to perfom a Overpower when up against frequent dodgers, but they'll need tactical mastery. Unfortunately, in return, Warriors lose survivalibility, produce mediocre threat when in Defensive stance in PvE and versatility of stances. A Protection Warrior loses out equal as he does less White damage, but increase his tanking abilities and slight increase survivalibility, but the biggest reason why Protection Warriors and Defensive stance are so under used in PvP is because they can't use hamstring with Defensive stance to reduce the opponent mobility while at the same time they can use charge or intercept to mobilize themselves. Most of the class in the game have advantage at range and will stand to fight a warrior with a shield.
Thus, you end up having a lot people using Arms/Fury to increase their white damage, using axes to increase their critical chance and use Berserker stance for mobility. In order for people to stop making less cookie cutter builds, they need make the skills universal, take out the rage gauge penalty for changing stances, remove tactical mastery and change the talent trees to increase: Weapon damage, support skills (shouts and trigger talents) and surivability.
Nope, a Arms/Fury warrior will have trouble holding aggro or steal aggro a Protection Paladin. A Protection warrior has no mobility or no way to reduce his/her opponent so in battle so can't keep the margin between them and the opponent for long. So not just any warrior build can perfom well in all aspects.
[quote]Originally posted by CaptainRPG
[b][quote]
Nope, a Arms/Fury warrior will have trouble holding aggro or steal aggro a Protection Paladin. A Protection warrior has no mobility or no way to reduce his/her opponent so in battle so can't keep the margin between them and the opponent for long. So not just any warrior build can perfom well in all aspects.[/b][/quote]
I never said a protection spec warrior could do as well in PvP as a high damage build, that's just silly. "Do OK versus some opponents" is a pretty limted statement if you think about it.
No not all builds are just as good at everything, I agree. That's the entire point of talent trees after all. And the entire misunderstanding that we are having just further illustrates that the OP is on crack. Not all 60 dwarf warriors are identical except for gear.
Someone else argued that what he meant to say was that all warriors that do PvP have identical builds and thus are effectivley identical except for gear. Even if it were true, that wouldn't really be the fault of the game designers since I've seen both Arms and Fury warriors do quite well in PvP (that's all I was trying to say). Of course since the OP never said that in the first place, I'm not sure why I even bothered to respond.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.