WoD broke the community?? Uhmm Cata broke the community and it has been broken since. If it really took them this long to figure it out, that doesn't bode well for any changes they will make to address it.
It seems like post Cata they have been in panic mode, and just throwing stuff at the wall and praying that something sticks. Desperation doesn't breed good game design.
I really hope they aren't planning on going back to the days of bring the class, screw the player. Having class identity is great, but don't design shit around groups having certain abilities and then not give those abilities to some classes. If you can't guarantee a group will have an ability then don't severely handicap groups that are missing the "correct" class.
ANd this guy above is why WoW sucks nowdays
SO whats the freaking point of 10 druids doing 10 man raids.This is an MMORPG class diversion is the most important thing.Each groups can compensate in different way, enh shamans were sort of useless in PVE back tov anilla but we always picked 1 or due to their enhanced totems talent and we put em in the melee group, it wasnt just ''whos the most op class''. This diversion was the beauty of the game, no 10 freaking classes having the same buffs as it is now, which is beyond pathetic
EVeryone was feeling sort of special because it had some unique abilities. ''bring the player''? THere is no such thing as hard mechanics, its all about raid coordination and synergy between a raid, mechanics/reflexes is the CSGO
Apparently you weren't around in vanilla when they literally brought some classes to raids only for the buff. The player couldn't really contribute in a meaningful way. This design sucked, and they changed it. They hyped up what they called "bring the player, not the class". For mythic raiding you are expected to have all the buffs and that is fine. But like for example for 5 mans in Cataclysm you really need 2-3 CCs in your group to match the type of mobs you got in the dungeon and LFD regularly put you in groups without the required CC. That is just poor design. Either you design your content so you don't need it, or you make sure the groups going in will have it. They are basically going back to a design that already failed.
Apparently i played since classic beta which u obviously didnt, and there were many uses of each class specs even tho some were useless, for example SP's were being used as mana batteries enh as i explained before for some specific talents.
Who cares about LFD when the difficulty is so much downgraded after WoD, there is not even point discussing it, LFD is a pure mechanism to get geared and for people who dont raid to expierience a ''cheap''representation of the specific raid. It is not to actually raid.CC just makes your life easier, if your tank doesnt bother to mark prio targets then its not the design's fault
I'm perplexed by forced grouping while leveling. That one thing pushed me away from the GW2 expansion more than anything else. Group hero point unlocks was hard after starting a month late and by the time i found out there were some sort of group finders to help do them i had already uninstalled the game. It didn't help that the final boss fight of the story glitched and they didn't have checkpoints after the two long fights preceding it.
Its an MMO and working with other people as well as social skills are needed in the game. Anything else would just be a single player game like countless other MMOs out there. If you dont learn how to group as you level then when you get to end game and want to group you will be clueless. Why do you think FFXIV is going strong compared to every other MMO out there? YEP they force you to group up as you level so you learn your role as you level. This is where MMOs need to separate themselves from single player games as well as separate themselves from players who do not want to play together. Not every game should be everything to everyone and that is WOWs massive mistake.
Forced grouping is ass during leveling. I hate waiting 30 minutes to spend 15 minutes doing piss easy content so I can progress the storyline in FFXIV. It was even worse before dungeon finders became a thing. As a DPS in FFXI, where forced grouping was very much a thing, and when I was a kid with zero responsibility, waiting around for a PT was okay. Now? Not so much.
I agree @simsalabim77 ; - I simply don't have time to stand around in Dalaran screeching for a tank or a healer or waiting/hoping to be "chosen" for a dungeon or raid. I have so many other things IRL that demand time. I like to be able to get into my MMO, play a bit, accomplish a bit and get out so that I can get on with the other stuff.
Sure, I know the easy answer is, "Find a guild" but that honestly doesn't make it much better. I want to see the story and move on doing the things I want to do without being forced to be in a group to do it. I have a couple friends and we like to hang together to complete content. That's plenty for me.
Inb4 someone says "play Diablo 3". I do.
The bottom line is that Blizzard understands its subscribers - a probably largely "older" audience of gamers who have real life commitments and not the same number of hours of time they had 10 years ago. When you're a teen without anything to do, it was great. With kids, a full time job, ailing parents or whatever, the ability to stand idly by waiting around is gone and not a desirable game feature.
WIth other words u want to expierience the same stuff with someone who wants to invest more time than you in the game.SO people especially in MMORPG's shouldnt be rewarded for the amount of time they invest? if there is 1 type of game that investing time should be rewarded respectively this is the MMORPG genre.
I never managed to climb above Stone guard rank in vanilla and i also i never managed to clear ST BT and a few bosses from MH in TBC, but who cares?
I was in a middle -pack guild that we were raiding 3 times a week we cleared a few raids and everyone was happy and we took what we deserved, they were other guilds with 4 -5 raids per week with multyple raids that sometimes lasted over 5 hours, different issue, BUT THATS why they managed to clear content that the rest couldnt, thats the WHOLE point.
2Hours to form a group?Not true at all(unless it was estremely early ), especially from the 1-59 range. Not to mention that by the time u hit 60 u propably had a friend list full of people.The only time i remember myself struggling to find a group it was just for LBRS because it was not that popular / also huge(even tho u ahd the choise not to clear everything)..and Dire maul maybe.
Would removing the LFD would improve current wow? Hell no, current wow player-base is spoiled, it will never work.
@danwest58 ;I played WoW since Vanilla and was a hardcore raider from BC until Cata. I played FFXI from NA launch until mid-way through ToAU and was in an endgame linkshell. My LS leader would call me at 3 a.m. to go and camp a boss. There were times when I couldn't find a group to XP with for DAYS. All that stuff was okay at the time, but I will simply never go back to a game that does not have some system that facilitates quick and easy grouping for content. You might personally be okay with working 50 hours a week and taking care of a family while dealing with finding a group for content, but I will never go back to that again. It's much more relaxing for me to hop into a queue, and go kill some bosses.
It seems that the market has spoken and they want LFD in their games, and I honestly couldn't be happier because if it weren't for things like flex raiding, LFD, cross-server raids, etc. I would not be playing MMORPG's today.
Most of what you said only applies to FFXI. That whole linkshell system was awful as was the LFG system and half the classes were useless in groups, same with Everquest. But Vanilla WoW was super easy to group even before dungeon finder. The problem has always been with lack of quality LFG tool. Don't cater to brainless autodungeoneering, it destroys community & immersion.
How does shouting in chat for what can amount to hours break immersion and community anymore than queuing into LFD? I played Vanilla. I was a Rogue. It was not easy to find groups. You either got accepted into a guild and hoped the run had room for you or shouted in chat. I finally started raiding hardcore in BC, and I spent well over half of the expansion just doing heroics, Karazhan, and failed ZA bear runs. I finally got accepted to a raid guild after pugging a ton of Kara and ended up doing progression. It took an enormous amount of time to get to that point. I much prefer LFD.
Like I said they did need a better Group Finder tool to help find people who are looking for people for there groups. I do agree spamming a chat was not ideal and the WOW Raid Browser was crap, but LFD was no needed. I also would agree that a better Guild finder tool is needed than today's guild finder tool.
I am not saying hours of shouting in a chat can break immersion. However it can break a community and has broken a community. For example I ran very successful small and larger guilds during Vanilla WOW and TBC, I also had a successful guild in SWTOR before they put the LFD tool in there too. After these tools were made my guilds no longer became successful. Why? Because players stopped running together and relied solely on LFD not the guild, Yes my small group of friends from WOTLK on ran together normally but people stopped texting each other days and times we would run together. It became if we were on we would run together but if not who cares just queue. As time went by these people stopped feeling the love of MMOs because they didnt feel a part of something anymore it was just a log on jump in queue game for them even though they were not putting in effort to contact others to run. Its because it was EASIER to do LFD than to figure out times.
In my successful guilds people had fun got to do content, enjoyed talking on TS, and being a part of a group. Since LFD has become prominent in every game people now refuse to wait 5 to 10 minutes for someone, tell others to just queue up and stop trying to make a group, and bitch that there is no one ever to do anything with even if there are 30 people online in the guild they are in. Why? Because people got so use to easy access when they want it that taking a little extra time to find people to play with even if its waiting 15 minutes its too much for people.
This is how LFD has killed communities. Its overwhelmingly agree upon that LFD has and has made the community more Toxic. What you like kills MMOs.
Apparently you weren't around in vanilla when they literally brought some classes to raids only for the buff. The player couldn't really contribute in a meaningful way. This design sucked, and they changed it. They hyped up what they called "bring the player, not the class". For mythic raiding you are expected to have all the buffs and that is fine. But like for example for 5 mans in Cataclysm you really need 2-3 CCs in your group to match the type of mobs you got in the dungeon and LFD regularly put you in groups without the required CC. That is just poor design. Either you design your content so you don't need it, or you make sure the groups going in will have it. They are basically going back to a design that already failed.
Apparently i played since classic beta which u obviously didnt, and there were many uses of each class specs even tho some were useless, for example SP's were being used as mana batteries enh as i explained before for some specific talents.
Who cares about LFD when the difficulty is so much downgraded after WoD, there is not even point discussing it, LFD is a pure mechanism to get geared and for people who dont raid to expierience a ''cheap''representation of the specific raid. It is not to actually raid.CC just makes your life easier, if your tank doesnt bother to mark prio targets then its not the design's fault
I use to love mana batteries during Kara runs. I had a Lock and SPriest in the run one day and never ran out of mana. The Lock increased Shadow Damage and Shadow Priest use to give mana back based on how much damage they threw.
The problem with LFD is it's just a poor design to a complex problem. MMOs should be focused on community and the social aspect of the game not on cheap representation of any content as well as a treadmill. This is why LFD has killed MMOs today. It turns a time investment game into a fast foot type of game and MMOs will continue to be stagnate with a Automated group finder tool.
I agree @simsalabim77 ; - I simply don't have time to stand around in Dalaran screeching for a tank or a healer or waiting/hoping to be "chosen" for a dungeon or raid. I have so many other things IRL that demand time. I like to be able to get into my MMO, play a bit, accomplish a bit and get out so that I can get on with the other stuff.
Sure, I know the easy answer is, "Find a guild" but that honestly doesn't make it much better. I want to see the story and move on doing the things I want to do without being forced to be in a group to do it. I have a couple friends and we like to hang together to complete content. That's plenty for me.
Inb4 someone says "play Diablo 3". I do.
The bottom line is that Blizzard understands its subscribers - a probably largely "older" audience of gamers who have real life commitments and not the same number of hours of time they had 10 years ago. When you're a teen without anything to do, it was great. With kids, a full time job, ailing parents or whatever, the ability to stand idly by waiting around is gone and not a desirable game feature.
WIth other words u want to expierience the same stuff with someone who wants to invest more time than you in the game.SO people especially in MMORPG's shouldnt be rewarded for the amount of time they invest? if there is 1 type of game that investing time should be rewarded respectively this is the MMORPG genre.
I never managed to climb above Stone guard rank in vanilla and i also i never managed to clear ST BT and a few bosses from MH in TBC, but who cares?
I was in a middle -pack guild that we were raiding 3 times a week we cleared a few raids and everyone was happy and we took what we deserved, they were other guilds with 4 -5 raids per week with multyple raids that sometimes lasted over 5 hours, different issue, BUT THATS why they managed to clear content that the rest couldnt, thats the WHOLE point.
2Hours to form a group?Not true at all(unless it was estremely early ), especially from the 1-59 range. Not to mention that by the time u hit 60 u propably had a friend list full of people.The only time i remember myself struggling to find a group it was just for LBRS because it was not that popular / also huge(even tho u ahd the choise not to clear everything)..and Dire maul maybe.
Would tthe LFD would improve current wow? hell no, current wow player-base is spoiled, it will never work.
@subxaero I have the same experience as you too Sub. I got into BWL which is as far as I got in Vanilla and did a little SSC in TBC but not much. I had a great time even though I personally didn't have enough time to raid more than 2 days a week when I did raid. I never once bitched that WOW needed to change to fix my schedule and still feel the same way because I hate what WOW has become today. Do I think things needed to be added to help out players like myself. Yep. Badges was a good add though they could have added other things like multiple tiers of heroic\normal dungeons at end game, shared loot tables between bosses for greater chance to get certain gear rather than farming 1 dungeon. A good LFG tool that was not a Automated cross realm LFD tool like we have today. Rank up in spell abilities from Dungeons vs QA20 spell scrolls.
All of these things would enhance the community not blow it up like LFD did. Heck even save spots for instances and dungeons just in case the tank had to leave because his kid just jumped out of a bunk bed and broke his foot. These are all major wins for people with limited time or time that might get cut down become of real time.
The problem with all of these ideas? They all needed to be built and development time spent on. Marketing managers thought it was easier for a cheap easy fix that would make more money. Well they were wrong.
I started playing Nostalrius (vanilla WoW) recently and it is glorious. I actually have a reason to explore and socialize again. It may not be for everyone, but my friends, family and I are hooked!
I last played WoW seriously in WotLK, since then I've subbed a month or two here or there. I start a new character, quest until I get to the main city and then spam LFD forever, never leaving the city again. Then, I start a new character, quest until I get to the main city and, you guessed it, spam LFD.
Obviously not everyone plays the same way, but for me, live WoW (at least in the state I last played it) might as well be free to play dungeon simulator 2016.
Gosh--these changes are just not good enough. Blizzard would be so much better off making a new WoW or "WoW like" game with a different story/theme. Old players would possibly come back. Making Expansion x100 does not insentivize anyone to come back or start new. The game was fun 12+ years ago... see that. 12 years ago. --Note people like to talk about WoW player populations but don't account for or like to talk about gold farmers, bots, and the 'probability' of an overwhelmingly large population of players being non-NA/EU. I look at "population" with a very leery eye. You think company's don't lie? ha!
" are perhaps the best ways to improve the aging game besides actually
putting some effort into a coherent story and frequent content updates
(which WoW has been notoriously bad at)."
I think they watched EQ crank out expansions and content and really burn out the player base...Im sure they are intentionally slow
In the first 2 years they cranked out a major content patch every 2 months; and then they released BC and followed with a more content patches. So no.
I wish they would take a turn toward vanilla, rather than toward simplification. The game was at its best when there were ongoing lively conversations on boards and guild chats where best to spend those talent points, which Stat to prioritize.
Eq has seen this (meaning, the idea that the game was at its best in its early stages ) with the insane success of the progression servers, it remains to be seen whether they take the lessons to any new content they make. Will wow learn too?
Does nobody remember leveling a Warrior in vanilla? We all had a rifle and a prayer that when we fired the damn thing, we only hit one creature at the end of the mob and that only 1 or 2 of his buddies would follow. Otherwise we learned how to ghost walk a lot by diving a mob killing as many as possible and then dying, running back, and doing it again. I don't know about you, but I sure like being able to have SOME self healing when fighting through a quest area, and have no intention of reliving 'the good ole days' because they weren't that good.
People bash group finder, and if you had a guild great, you could usually find a group if you signed on during prime time to run it. If you didn't it was LFG or Trade Chat in Undercity/Orgrimmar, than a rush to find a warlock who could summon, or some high level that had a mount to get there to use the summoning stone. Then you had to hope you got all the right classes and that somebody actually knew how the dungeon went. If not, it was Ghost Walk into Rage quit, and then repeat mission. Are people really nostalgic for this? I for one thought GroupFinder was a godsend and would never send it back, despite its problems.
I know lots of people site Cata as the downfall of the game, but Cata was the expansion where I actually spent most of my time playing this game, all the way through MoP to WoD. Even though I have been playing this since Vanilla/BC. I think it needs some improvements and a brush up since its competition got stiffer with SWTOR/TSW/ESO but this game has always been great, and the dev's really love it. Sign me up for Legion.
I really dont like them removing skills like that. There are enough 'action combat' MMOs with 5-6 skills on your bar, where you play a spammable gimmick, not a fully fledged class.
This "simplifying" takes away depth from the game. My favourite class was the hunter. But then they removed their melee attacks, took away some fun if not often used skills, like Eyes of the Beast. They took away quivers and ammo so I no longer needed to worry when I would be shooting my last arrow. Convenient for sure, but it took away from the experience.
In short they turned my axe-wielding survival hunter into just another dude with a bow. Made me stop the game. Argh! Still mad about it but on the upside I got my life back :P
Comments
Who cares about LFD when the difficulty is so much downgraded after WoD, there is not even point discussing it, LFD is a pure mechanism to get geared and for people who dont raid to expierience a ''cheap''representation of the specific raid. It is not to actually raid.CC just makes your life easier, if your tank doesnt bother to mark prio targets then its not the design's fault
I never managed to climb above Stone guard rank in vanilla and i also i never managed to clear ST BT and a few bosses from MH in TBC, but who cares?
I was in a middle -pack guild that we were raiding 3 times a week we cleared a few raids and everyone was happy and we took what we deserved, they were other guilds with 4 -5 raids per week with multyple raids that sometimes lasted over 5 hours, different issue, BUT THATS why they managed to clear content that the rest couldnt, thats the WHOLE point.
2Hours to form a group?Not true at all(unless it was estremely early ), especially from the 1-59 range. Not to mention that by the time u hit 60 u propably had a friend list full of people.The only time i remember myself struggling to find a group it was just for LBRS because it was not that popular / also huge(even tho u ahd the choise not to clear everything)..and Dire maul maybe.
Would removing the LFD would improve current wow? Hell no, current wow player-base is spoiled, it will never work.
I am not saying hours of shouting in a chat can break immersion. However it can break a community and has broken a community. For example I ran very successful small and larger guilds during Vanilla WOW and TBC, I also had a successful guild in SWTOR before they put the LFD tool in there too. After these tools were made my guilds no longer became successful. Why? Because players stopped running together and relied solely on LFD not the guild, Yes my small group of friends from WOTLK on ran together normally but people stopped texting each other days and times we would run together. It became if we were on we would run together but if not who cares just queue. As time went by these people stopped feeling the love of MMOs because they didnt feel a part of something anymore it was just a log on jump in queue game for them even though they were not putting in effort to contact others to run. Its because it was EASIER to do LFD than to figure out times.
In my successful guilds people had fun got to do content, enjoyed talking on TS, and being a part of a group. Since LFD has become prominent in every game people now refuse to wait 5 to 10 minutes for someone, tell others to just queue up and stop trying to make a group, and bitch that there is no one ever to do anything with even if there are 30 people online in the guild they are in. Why? Because people got so use to easy access when they want it that taking a little extra time to find people to play with even if its waiting 15 minutes its too much for people.
This is how LFD has killed communities. Its overwhelmingly agree upon that LFD has and has made the community more Toxic. What you like kills MMOs.
I use to love mana batteries during Kara runs. I had a Lock and SPriest in the run one day and never ran out of mana. The Lock increased Shadow Damage and Shadow Priest use to give mana back based on how much damage they threw.
The problem with LFD is it's just a poor design to a complex problem. MMOs should be focused on community and the social aspect of the game not on cheap representation of any content as well as a treadmill. This is why LFD has killed MMOs today. It turns a time investment game into a fast foot type of game and MMOs will continue to be stagnate with a Automated group finder tool.
@subxaero I have the same experience as you too Sub. I got into BWL which is as far as I got in Vanilla and did a little SSC in TBC but not much. I had a great time even though I personally didn't have enough time to raid more than 2 days a week when I did raid. I never once bitched that WOW needed to change to fix my schedule and still feel the same way because I hate what WOW has become today. Do I think things needed to be added to help out players like myself. Yep. Badges was a good add though they could have added other things like multiple tiers of heroic\normal dungeons at end game, shared loot tables between bosses for greater chance to get certain gear rather than farming 1 dungeon. A good LFG tool that was not a Automated cross realm LFD tool like we have today. Rank up in spell abilities from Dungeons vs QA20 spell scrolls.
All of these things would enhance the community not blow it up like LFD did. Heck even save spots for instances and dungeons just in case the tank had to leave because his kid just jumped out of a bunk bed and broke his foot. These are all major wins for people with limited time or time that might get cut down become of real time.
The problem with all of these ideas? They all needed to be built and development time spent on. Marketing managers thought it was easier for a cheap easy fix that would make more money. Well they were wrong.
I last played WoW seriously in WotLK, since then I've subbed a month or two here or there. I start a new character, quest until I get to the main city and then spam LFD forever, never leaving the city again. Then, I start a new character, quest until I get to the main city and, you guessed it, spam LFD.
Obviously not everyone plays the same way, but for me, live WoW (at least in the state I last played it) might as well be free to play dungeon simulator 2016.
In the first 2 years they cranked out a major content patch every 2 months; and then they released BC and followed with a more content patches. So no.
Does nobody remember leveling a Warrior in vanilla? We all had a rifle and a prayer that when we fired the damn thing, we only hit one creature at the end of the mob and that only 1 or 2 of his buddies would follow. Otherwise we learned how to ghost walk a lot by diving a mob killing as many as possible and then dying, running back, and doing it again. I don't know about you, but I sure like being able to have SOME self healing when fighting through a quest area, and have no intention of reliving 'the good ole days' because they weren't that good.
People bash group finder, and if you had a guild great, you could usually find a group if you signed on during prime time to run it. If you didn't it was LFG or Trade Chat in Undercity/Orgrimmar, than a rush to find a warlock who could summon, or some high level that had a mount to get there to use the summoning stone. Then you had to hope you got all the right classes and that somebody actually knew how the dungeon went. If not, it was Ghost Walk into Rage quit, and then repeat mission. Are people really nostalgic for this? I for one thought GroupFinder was a godsend and would never send it back, despite its problems.
I know lots of people site Cata as the downfall of the game, but Cata was the expansion where I actually spent most of my time playing this game, all the way through MoP to WoD. Even though I have been playing this since Vanilla/BC. I think it needs some improvements and a brush up since its competition got stiffer with SWTOR/TSW/ESO but this game has always been great, and the dev's really love it. Sign me up for Legion.
In short they turned my axe-wielding survival hunter into just another dude with a bow. Made me stop the game. Argh! Still mad about it but on the upside I got my life back :P
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Does it still make money? Yes
Will it continue to be king? For a couple more years max...
Should Blizz be working on the next WoW? If they aren't using those buckets of cash then they are short sighted fools.