Originally posted by Pantastic The dividing line between "Science Fiction" and "Fantasy" is not clear-cut, most of the time when someome lists what's supposedly the dividing line they end up excluding almost all of what most people consider science fiction. Any definition that exludes the Foundation Series, Lensman series, and Ringworld series, just to name three, to say nothing of pretty much all movie and TV SF (no Star Wars or Star Trek) is pretty clearly a flawed definition, and exluding psionics excludes those. Though Bluecoyote, spice in Dune was NOT just a geriatric drug, I don't see how you could possibly get that idea. Spice's biggest effect was on psionic powers, it's value as an anti-aging drug was secondary to the fact that the Navigator's guild needed its boost to prescient powers for space travel, and it's main effect in the story had nothing to do with its anti-aging properties.
I did not say that it was just a geriatric spice. And it doesn't grant "psionic powers." For one thing, "Psionic" is just a recycled cliche from generic fantasy games. The spice bolstered the already-inborn preciense in people. It allowed them to view possbile futures, based on action-reaction events. The spice chemically stimulated minds in a way that can't be explained. It's a textbook sci-fi device- an object or concept that doesn't exist in real life, that effects the entire plot. Classic science-fiction.
Another example of this kind of plot device is "atomic power" and robots in Asimov's books. When they were written, atomics and robots were things on the horizon, still out of reach to the scientists of the day.
The point is, Dune is quintessential science-fiction. It's not to be confused with the Fantasy genre, by any means.
The term 'psi' dates back at least to 1942, a bit before any 'generic fantasy games' which started in the 1970s with D&D. If the 'onic' is a recent (I wasn't able to find a reference to it in a brief search), then please accept my deepest apologies for offending you by using a form of a word with an 'onic' that I can't prove how old it is, I'll use 'psi' instead from here on. Other than my terrible use of 'psionic' instead of 'psi', I'm not really sure what you're arguing with me about.
Originally posted by Pantastic The term 'psi' dates back at least to 1942, a bit before any 'generic fantasy games' which started in the 1970s with D&D. If the 'onic' is a recent (I wasn't able to find a reference to it in a brief search), then please accept my deepest apologies for offending you by using a form of a word with an 'onic' that I can't prove how old it is, I'll use 'psi' instead from here on. Other than my terrible use of 'psionic' instead of 'psi', I'm not really sure what you're arguing with me about.
"Psionics" refers to mind-reading, telepathy, and telekinesis. The spice granted none of those. I know you've read the book, and I know you remember the specific part of the book that dealt with misconceptions about the melange and so-called "T-P." I don't care whether you use "psionic" or "psi," because that and any other variation have nothing to do with Dune. I suggest you look in a place other than a dictionary to confirm what I'm saying about the concept, because you won't find it there.
My vote........well I play EVE and am content, but my vote regarding the thread would be without a doubt:
The Night's Dawn Trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton. His 'universe' is so fleshed out and 'real'. Not to mention grand space opera, living ships, combat, and the dead coming back to infest the living just for grins.
I would love to see more sci-fi titles out there.. SWG was flushed.. Earth and Beyond, sadly flushed. I am looking forward to Star Trek. I also read a rumor about a Stargate mmo.. could be interesting.. I wonder if I could be a symbiot.. lol
Dune would be a good MMO and probably the most obvious choice but there are a few others that might make good MMO's as well. Consider the likes of Riverworld or Ringworld or even The Foundation during the decline of the Galactic Empire.
sci-fi is my style and i red some perfect novels(i know, nothing is perfect but i just wnna express that they are so cool!), not english, i really wanna film a sci-fi movie in my life, not a MMORPG . sorry for off topic.
Originally posted by Resetgun Dune doesn't feel scifi enough - it is more like adventure in desert. But you might get good game from it.
lol, you really are clueless as to what Sci-Fi is.
Most people view Sci-Fi to be like Star Wars and like you mentiond Bladerunner....such a shame. It has alot more to offer then that.
Dune is far more Sci-Fi then Bladerunner. Alot more. Bladerunner is on earth in the future. Dune is on different planets, with ALOT of different races and political combat, and religious issues. The TV series was bad, but good story wise. I suggest you see the movie and the TV series. Better yet, read the books.
Dune is massive.
"literary fantasy involving the imagined impact of science on society"
This is the description dictionary.com came up with and I don't really see how Blade Runner conflicts with that. In fact, your description of sci-fi ( ooh, lots of planets and aliens) differs from the norm. indeed, Blade Runner would be categorized more sci-fi than Dune because Blade Runner is based on our homeplanet and society - Dune is not. ResetGun 1 Axept 0
There was a Dune MMO in development some years ago ( Dune Generation ) by Cryo Networks, a French company. An old friend of mine was lead programmer & designer on it. Unfortunately, it got cancelled.
Of course, there's also my own independent MMO in development, Infinity. It is heavily inspired by Isaac Asimov's Foundation.
Originally posted by BlueCoyote "Psionics" refers to mind-reading, telepathy, and telekinesis. The spice granted none of those. I know you've read the book, and I know you remember the specific part of the book that dealt with misconceptions about the melange and so-called "T-P." I don't care whether you use "psionic" or "psi," because that and any other variation have nothing to do with Dune. I suggest you look in a place other than a dictionary to confirm what I'm saying about the concept, because you won't find it there.
Psi is a term for mental powers in general, it also includes such things as prescience, clairvoyance (remote veiwing), object reading, and other informational abilities. Even in the "Generic Fantasy Games" you think spawned the terms covers more than TK and TP, I can dig out my old PHB from 1st ED AD&D or the psionics handbook from 2nd ED and list off the prescient and clairvoyant abilities from there. I suggest you use somethng other than a limited definition you constructed, I'm actually not aware of anywhere in fiction or nonfiction that limits either term the way you do.
Further, EVEN IF you limit psionics to telepathy and telekenesis, Dune still does have telepathy since Paul, his kids, Bene Gesserit reverend mothers, and a few others are able to communicate directly with the minds of their ancestors, in some cases being controlled by them and in others simply extracting information from them. In Children of Dune it's made quite clear that those aren't just static memories, there's a character completely controlled by the mind of another character who died in Dune (deliberately vague to avoid spoilers). Plus there's always the racial subconscious manipulating mass numbers of human minds to move events along, though I suppose you could find a way to argue that it's not telepathy.
I see Ghost in the shell has already been mentioned
On the same note, a perfect setting for a MMO would be William Gibson's Sprawl trilogy. Neuromancer, Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive. You might remember the movie Johnny Mnemonic- it's the same universe.
But with Neuromancer being my all time favorite science fiction book, I'm not sure I'd like to see them butcher it
Regarding the definition of science fiction: I know there's some "academic" definitions out there, but I choose to use my own criteria. To me, science fiction is any work that has a subject centered around a scientific concept, in the sense that it explores posible advances in science, their impact on the universe or mankind and so on. Acording to my definition, Star Trek is science fiction, because the main plot revolves around discovery of unknown planets and civilizations and interstelar travel. Star Wars is not science fiction, because the main plot is as old as the first recorded writings - good vs. evil, democracy vs. tyrany, temptation and redemption. The sci-fi in Star Wars (spaceships, robots, lasers and so on) only serves as an exotic back drop. None of it is made into a significant plot line. For example, although you have a ton of robots and computers, they are treated like ordinary characters - the story never focuses on aspects such as the nature of artificial inteligence, as opposed to organic inteligence. The robots are simply there, as good or bad characters (note that in the early drafts, C3PO and R2D2 where actualy human). Compare to Star Trek, where you have a lot of story about Data and his quest to understand human nature, compare to Terminator, compare to Asimov's books that explore the role of the robots in the future of mankind, compare to Ghost in the Shell where the whole movie analizes the edge between human and machine. Compare to Frankenstein, which is about the effort to produce an artificial human being. That is a science fiction novel, although it wasn't called that at the time.
Remember I'm a huge Star Wars fan, so I'm not tring to bash SW. It's just that I put it in a different basket from science fiction.
If you're tring to argue that "a sci-fi setting means science fiction", think about this: You've all seen the modern Romeo and Juliet, the one with de'Caprio as Romeo. It had guns and fast cars - would you call it a gangsta' movie ? What if they were to remake Romeo and Juliet in a space setting, would it be science fiction ? Of course not.
Comments
Another example of this kind of plot device is "atomic power" and robots in Asimov's books. When they were written, atomics and robots were things on the horizon, still out of reach to the scientists of the day.
The point is, Dune is quintessential science-fiction. It's not to be confused with the Fantasy genre, by any means.
For those who are having trouble reconciling "magical" like effects and advanced technologies remember...
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke
Ghost in the Shell would make an awesome MMOG, wouldn't it?!
The term 'psi' dates back at least to 1942, a bit before any 'generic fantasy games' which started in the 1970s with D&D. If the 'onic' is a recent (I wasn't able to find a reference to it in a brief search), then please accept my deepest apologies for offending you by using a form of a word with an 'onic' that I can't prove how old it is, I'll use 'psi' instead from here on. Other than my terrible use of 'psionic' instead of 'psi', I'm not really sure what you're arguing with me about.
I agree. Dune has alot to offer.
Seconded. Dune is my favorite sci-fi book, if not my favorite book overall. It would be a great setting for an MMORPG.
I also really love Asimov's work. It warms my heart to know that people still follow classic science fiction.
Thirded. The entire Dune series is one of my favorites. Would make an excellent MMO.
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Played: Age of Conan, DDO, Saga of Ryzom, SWG, DaOC, MxO, EQ2, and so on...
Wish List: Jumpgate Evolution, Star Wars: TOR, Star Trek
My vote........well I play EVE and am content, but my vote regarding the thread would be without a doubt:
The Night's Dawn Trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton. His 'universe' is so fleshed out and 'real'. Not to mention grand space opera, living ships, combat, and the dead coming back to infest the living just for grins.
heh heh.
Here's one not mentioned. I read it a long long time ago. I heard they made several otheres after it.
Heres a site with a rough sumary http://www.ender.com/ender/ , and apparantly they were/are trying to make a movie about it. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0400403/
Playing Fallen Earth.
Dune would be a good MMO and probably the most obvious choice but there are a few others that might make good MMO's as well. Consider the likes of Riverworld or Ringworld or even The Foundation during the decline of the Galactic Empire.
sci-fi is my style and i red some perfect novels(i know, nothing is perfect but i just wnna express that they are so cool!), not english, i really wanna film a sci-fi movie in my life, not a MMORPG
. sorry for off topic.
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We are creating EBAY of MMORPG industry!
http://WWW.GOOGAM.COM
lol, you really are clueless as to what Sci-Fi is.
Most people view Sci-Fi to be like Star Wars and like you mentiond Bladerunner....such a shame. It has alot more to offer then that.
Dune is far more Sci-Fi then Bladerunner. Alot more. Bladerunner is on earth in the future. Dune is on different planets, with ALOT of different races and political combat, and religious issues.
The TV series was bad, but good story wise. I suggest you see the movie and the TV series. Better yet, read the books.
Dune is massive.
"literary fantasy involving the imagined impact of science on society"
This is the description dictionary.com came up with and I don't really see how Blade Runner conflicts with that. In fact, your description of sci-fi ( ooh, lots of planets and aliens) differs from the norm. indeed, Blade Runner would be categorized more sci-fi than Dune because Blade Runner is based on our homeplanet and society - Dune is not. ResetGun 1 Axept 0
There was a Dune MMO in development some years ago ( Dune Generation ) by Cryo Networks, a French company. An old friend of mine was lead programmer & designer on it. Unfortunately, it got cancelled.
Of course, there's also my own independent MMO in development, Infinity. It is heavily inspired by Isaac Asimov's Foundation.
Infinity: The Quest for Earth, space-sim MMO with a seamless procedural galaxy.
Psi is a term for mental powers in general, it also includes such things as prescience, clairvoyance (remote veiwing), object reading, and other informational abilities. Even in the "Generic Fantasy Games" you think spawned the terms covers more than TK and TP, I can dig out my old PHB from 1st ED AD&D or the psionics handbook from 2nd ED and list off the prescient and clairvoyant abilities from there. I suggest you use somethng other than a limited definition you constructed, I'm actually not aware of anywhere in fiction or nonfiction that limits either term the way you do.
Further, EVEN IF you limit psionics to telepathy and telekenesis, Dune still does have telepathy since Paul, his kids, Bene Gesserit reverend mothers, and a few others are able to communicate directly with the minds of their ancestors, in some cases being controlled by them and in others simply extracting information from them. In Children of Dune it's made quite clear that those aren't just static memories, there's a character completely controlled by the mind of another character who died in Dune (deliberately vague to avoid spoilers). Plus there's always the racial subconscious manipulating mass numbers of human minds to move events along, though I suppose you could find a way to argue that it's not telepathy.
[quote]Originally posted by Nyast
Of course, there's also my own independent MMO in development, Infinity. It is heavily inspired by Isaac Asimov's Foundation.
[/b][/quote]
Cool, I just check out the web site. I guess that knocks the Foundation off the list cause somebody's already doing it. Good luck and keep us posted.
The Millenium Lee
I see Ghost in the shell has already been mentioned
On the same note, a perfect setting for a MMO would be William Gibson's Sprawl trilogy. Neuromancer, Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive. You might remember the movie Johnny Mnemonic- it's the same universe.
But with Neuromancer being my all time favorite science fiction book, I'm not sure I'd like to see them butcher it
Regarding the definition of science fiction: I know there's some "academic" definitions out there, but I choose to use my own criteria. To me, science fiction is any work that has a subject centered around a scientific concept, in the sense that it explores posible advances in science, their impact on the universe or mankind and so on. Acording to my definition, Star Trek is science fiction, because the main plot revolves around discovery of unknown planets and civilizations and interstelar travel. Star Wars is not science fiction, because the main plot is as old as the first recorded writings - good vs. evil, democracy vs. tyrany, temptation and redemption. The sci-fi in Star Wars (spaceships, robots, lasers and so on) only serves as an exotic back drop. None of it is made into a significant plot line. For example, although you have a ton of robots and computers, they are treated like ordinary characters - the story never focuses on aspects such as the nature of artificial inteligence, as opposed to organic inteligence. The robots are simply there, as good or bad characters (note that in the early drafts, C3PO and R2D2 where actualy human). Compare to Star Trek, where you have a lot of story about Data and his quest to understand human nature, compare to Terminator, compare to Asimov's books that explore the role of the robots in the future of mankind, compare to Ghost in the Shell where the whole movie analizes the edge between human and machine. Compare to Frankenstein, which is about the effort to produce an artificial human being. That is a science fiction novel, although it wasn't called that at the time.
Remember I'm a huge Star Wars fan, so I'm not tring to bash SW. It's just that I put it in a different basket from science fiction.
If you're tring to argue that "a sci-fi setting means science fiction", think about this: You've all seen the modern Romeo and Juliet, the one with de'Caprio as Romeo. It had guns and fast cars - would you call it a gangsta' movie ? What if they were to remake Romeo and Juliet in a space setting, would it be science fiction ? Of course not.