Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Level differences are killing me ...*
DuraheLL
Member Posts: 2,951
oh! no not in game, but my gaminge experiences.
The absolute #1 thing I disgrace about RPG games are the stupid level systems!
Levels are only made to tell noobs what they can kill and what they cannot kill.
RPG's are dead when it comes to skills... since otherwise why would they need levels? Levels are all about time and investing large amounts of time on something you probably doesn't like anyway, the grind!
I thought RPG's were made for some other purposes than slaying stuff 24/7... I'm loosing faith on this genre of games... RPG, Role Playing Game, or as it should be called imo, PUARAAPWMTKEOS (Pick Up A Role As A Psychotic Wild Murderer That Kills Everything On Sight). Wow! Let's play a PUARAAPWMTKEOS-RPG!
I thought RPG's existed as RPG's, and that other games as FPS were for those who just had to see pixels fall apart... But well now there's no escape!
The worst thing about levels are not that they simply just makes you better, it's that they makes you better whether you like it or not, the level differences! Which are automaticly activated when you have X levels higher or lower than target, you aren't better/worse because you have more lethal weapons or skills with the weapons, no, you are better/worse because you are levels higher...
One second you are slaughtering vicious Orcs as if you were making coffee, next second a cow walks by 5 levels above you, you accidentally hit the cow and in 5 hits you are gone, bye bye! See it's redicilous ...
Well I don't know about the upcoming RPG's that are released this year, but if any of them have theese kind of level noncense stuff I'm going to ignore them just like that without even testing them.
Why not make the combat like current SWG? Even though that game is at the bottom of fun the new combat system could have brought forward something special. And the progression of skills like in EVE online?
Why not make skills so much harder to get but when you get them you notice them much more? Or I'm thinking more like Jedi Knight Academy, you can have lots of skills but they will only be a little helpful, it's the true skills and coordination that counts.
While at it I have to criticise the item depending ones too, which also is just depressing. Here's a little funny story of how it is:
Merchant: Hi there, I've got some nice weapons for you, take a good look.
Adventurer: I'll take that one, the blue axe.
Merchant: Oh, don't mind that one it's a noob axe, everyone starts with it. You gotta buy the green axe.
Adventurer: But it looks identical but only green? *Checks sharpness* Yup they are identical too.
Merchant: Hahaha! Oh my oh my, no! This green one is calles "Axe of butthead", it has 200% more DPS than blue nooby axe.
Adventurer: But ... why not rename the blue axe into ... hell I don't know "Axe of butthead x2"?
Merchant: That would be called cheating and exploiting sir, now how is it going to be?
I don't understand RPG's ...
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Comments
I stopped reading your post after the first few lines. Your idea is idiotic, can you imagine an MMORPG with no leveling system? I mean how long do you think it would take you to get bored? How could they seperate content and how could you get any feeling of accomplishment after hours of play?
It's already been done! If not a couple of times already! EVE and pre-CU SWG are the top ones I can recall just now. Think outside the box, it's only idiotic when you don't.
Oh and MABY you should READ the WHOLE posts before answering them, thanks
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
you sir are totally and completely clueless, and before talking bulls*it out of your mouth you should at least read the entire post.
do you realize how stupid it makes you to speak like you did and even say you stopped reading after the first lines?
I am totally in favor of a game that doesn't have levels. I really hate this half a year grind to make a maxed out char (lvl and item max) that shit is for the birds. I would like to either see a mmorpg that actually takes some skill to play or see a game that doesn't have levels. I never played it but I have heard in UO you just simply got better at your skills and you could choose any combination of skills you wanted. It didn't take all that long to master a skill and with that one mastered skill it was possible to pvp and do fairly well.
In Pre-cu SWG there was still a grind but you could be very capable in pvp with a charactor that wasn't maxed out. If you sat and took the time to create the right combination of limbs on the charactor tree you had a superior charactor and I liked that.
Roflcopter.
Newb.
-----------------------------
Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
While I agree a skill system would be an improvement to act as though there is no time sink involved in them either is misleading. Most of these games still require you to "level" up those skills through repetition, combat etc. (ie. UO). Even EVE requires time to level them up just without grinding.
Beyond that their is still the question of equipment, money etc. You can level up offline all you want in EVE but you are a nobody still without putting in time earning money for a ship. This requires time as well.
Now their are definite advantages to not having the level system but really it is almost the exact same thing as a skill system when you look at it closely. It's all window dressing. Customization of character is really the biggest benefit I can see, everything else is identical from what I can see (just that it has not been presented to us as such in games to date).
Imagine a level system where you could level up offline (ie. EVE). Or one where differences between the levels in terms of raw power were minimal such that a mid level character was almost as strong as one that was max'ed out (ie. UO). Isn't that just the same thing? If you remove the classes and add in all kinds of skill selection on level up you basically have the same system you describe no?
Using the idea of levels is just a convenience.... they aren't the problem in themselves.
What is the real difference between saying you are level 40 and 80% of the way to max (level 50) or that your main skills are at 40 and 80% of the way to max (50).????
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
agreed I would like to see more non level based games around. For example, people are talking about world pvp in WoW and saying how a load of ?? horde were attacking a base. How can that be fun to the lower leveller? when every hit you do does nothing, every you spell cast is resisted. To me it should be about an earlier player having basic spells and a later player have more advanced spells. For example early player may have 4 spells to choose from, each doing damage to the opposing player. But the later player will have more spells to choose from.
I wouldn't mind seeing a system where levels are eliminated altogether. I mean, seriously, I don't see why a person can have 10,000 HP at level 60 and I only have 50 at level 1. We're both human!
Rather, I'd like to see a game that's based on skill rather than your equip and your level. Sure, over time, you can improve your skills so that, say, you can take on 2 lower-skilled opponents at once. But start to add on more and your skill bonus goes away. There's just no way anyone can defend themselves against 3 people slashing at them with swords. Also, I want to see equipment be dealt with in a realistic manner. The last time I put on a shirt, I didn't all of a sudden become stronger, smarter, or faster. A shirt is a shirt and a chain mail is a chain mail. It takes a huge degree of ignorance to pretend that a high-level robe can actually protect you better than that lower-leveled suit of armor.
I can certainly see both sides of the fence here. Levels exist mainly due to convenience for the developers. It is sort of the status quo, so the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality plays in. Separating the world by levels is fairly easy for them from a programming side, and makes it fairly thoughtless from a players side. This can be good or bad depending on your perspective. If you don't want to think (or are new to gaming) this makes it easy to find what you can/can't fight. Hmmm, I'm a level 3 whatever....I see a level 20 bear....I think I'll pass. Oh, look, a level 2 bear cub...I know I can kill that. This type of system makes it too easy to KNOW what you can and can't kill...for the most part. I'm sure we have all died to things that we "just knew" we could take out....but not all fights go as planned.
A non-level based system could hold great potential. If you base a world on skills, then almost anything is possible. The more you work on and hone your skills, the better and more effective you become.
Some good examples of this in action....I'm sure all of us know how to make a fist and throw a punch, but do any of us stand a chance in a boxing ring with a Professional fighter? NO. Why? They are MUCH MUCH better than us in that skill. Could we do any harm to them? Sure, if we were to hit Evander Holyfield in the nose, he'd certainly feel it, but it would not phase him nearly as much as him hitting us in the nose, at which time he would proceed to pummel us. Putting this in game terms....I will use for the example the equivalant of a level 5 against a level 20 character (inexperience vs experience. You are an inexperienced Wizard fighting a more experienced foe....of any class. You cast your fireball. (In a level based system it would be resisted). Let's face it, fire is fire, you will burn! Your fireball is about as potent as a match however at this point and it takes ALOT of matches to burn up someone. In the meantime while you are matching something to death, it is whipping your backside severly and you'll most likely be on the losing end while the victor treats a couple of minor burn wounds. However as you process and start flinging Napalm around...you stand a much better chance against that same foe and will most likely incinerate the previously "unbeatable" foe.
The only game I've had experience with this type of system is an old RPG called Fantasy Hero. Hopefully others out there have played it....It's your typical D&D type fantasy game, but you had no levels involved. There were only skills. As you progressed through the game, you'd gain skill points/experience points. These points would then be used to "learn" new skills/abilities/characteristics in a slow, progressive manner. You truly could have character development and originality. You were truly at the control making your character exactly what you envisioned. If you wanted to master anything, like in real life, it would take time. A true master of his craft takes years or an entire lifetime to become an artisan....and even then they would tell you they are still learning and are not where they envision themselves.
This could carry over well into a MMORPG, there would still be everything that exists in most games today, but could certainly be much more instance/quest based. The "hack and slash, kill everything in sight" mentallity can be tossed out the window. Hey let's go save the captured princess, I hear there is a huge reward. First you would have to THINK and look for clues. This would require SKILLS. This would certainly make grouping essential and fun. I, as a warrior, know nothing about this "clue gathering" to me it just looks like the princess is gone. Hmmm, I need some help from a sneaky type person, I'll look for a rogue type. I think I'll ask around and see if I can find someone who can help me out. To make a long story short, you find a rogue that can tell there are minor things in her room that was disturbed (since he is skilled in knowing what to look for ie: perception) and helps determining that several people were involved to pull off such an operation, getting past guards, picking locks, etc. Now you two need a tracker to follow the trail and decide to harness the skills of a ranger, and while you are at it another fighter type a healer and some magical backup (since the rogue already sensed several people involved, you realize you will need the help of several).
Anyway, you gather your group, and are sucessful and returning the princess. At the end of the day, you all have used your skills....The rogue uses his perception, lockpicking, stealth, etc; the fighters used their Strength and fighting prowess; the ranger tracked and used his ranged fighting abilities, the priest used his healing and prayers; the magic users cast their spells, etc. ALL of which made each of them a little better in their abilities.
Now down the road, my warrior wants to work out (spend a skill point in strength) to become stronger.
The rogue goes to his guild master and spends time learning the art of stealth from a master (spend a point in stealth)
The wizard does some research & practice on his fireball, it's now equivalant to the entire book of matches instead of a single match.(spends a point in his fireball spell, now rank 2), etc
Anyway you get the idea....it can & does work.
As for armor, I totally agree with some of the previous comments. A shirt isn't going to protect you like a chain vest. This could easily be dealt with by calling it a "Magic" shirt. We are in a magical realm so that could be lived with.
If you want to add more realism, then that could be dealt with too. Again I'll refer to Fantasy Hero....
The more armor you wear, the EASIER you are to hit. Yes, I said EASIER. NO I'm not crazy, but I realize this goes against what almost every game has in place. Most games make you almost impossible to hit and you get "better and better" armor. But, consider this. Who is more mobile: A ninja in light cloth armor, a thief in leather armor, a fighter in chain, or a knight in full plate? Certainly the ninja could run cirlces around the knight wearing 200lbs of steel. So YES, the more/heavier armor you wear makes you easier to hit. However, what would you rather be wearing when a sword is being swung at you? The cloth of the plate? Here is where the armor makes the difference...yes you are easier to hit wearing steel, but you can take a hell of a beating and walk away. Someone is going to have a VERY HARD time killing you due your superior protection. The downside is you move slow...you won't be running the 40yd in record time for sure. On the other side, if you wear cloth, you are a nimble little minx. You are HARD TO HIT, but when someone does land a blow, you FEEL IT! So it all balances out and is more realistic. Everquest tried to bring weight into the equation and just made you move slow, but they were at least thinking along those lines....but failed to complete the vision.
Developers need to take a step back and put the ROLE PLAYING back into their "Role Playing" games. The Massive Multiplayer Online experience can be great, but let's not make a dozen games that have the same theme....good graphics and walk around killing everything. Players want to develop their characters, quest, quest, & quest, THINK, group, and yes, kill stuff too, but that isn't the sole purpose.
Take the best elements of the current games and blend them together and we'll be on the right track. Everything doesn't revolve around just killing something, sometimes it is just gathering an item or information (WoW does a good job of this). Make the rewards worth spending the time and effort. Let professions truly be professions. Last I checked a profession is something you can make a living at. Let players craft GREAT items. If you want some of the best items in the world, go to the best crafters in the world. HIGH end mobs should not be the only place to get high end gear.
Anyway, I've rambled on enough, thanks for your time.
JAttractive wrote:
While I agree a skill system would be an improvement to act as though there is no time sink involved in them either is misleading. Most of these games still require you to "level" up those skills through repetition, combat etc. (ie. UO). Even EVE requires time to level them up just without grinding.
Yes, you would have to work on skills in order to improve their "levels", but the grind would actually be less since you could break up your time improving different skills. This works especially well in games where there are a large number of non-combative skills to work with. Tired of killing monsters? go craft some iteams. When you're tired of that, you can go fishing or working on your tracking skills. Grind is defined by the monotony of the activity. A level based system could help defeat the boredom by giving the player something to do other than whack mobs with a sharp pointy thing all day.
There's a lot of good points in this thread. One thing I'd like to add, is that levels also have a divisive problem. Most MMOs are built to require - or at least encourage - grouping, and playing together with friends is one of the best things about online gaming.
But then, if you join a game later than your friends (I ran into this when I tried out WoW this week) - they're higher level than you, and if you can even survive grouping with them, it won't be a whole lot of fun. Even if you turbo-grind (solo or in pick-up groups) to catch up to them, you then have to play about the same amount per week as them - not too much, not too little - to stay in sync. That problem of staying in sync applies equally to friends you meet in the game, even if you're the same level at the point you first meet. When you add classes to the mix, and you need at least one tank, at least one healer, at least one nuker, etc., a game which is all about grouping actually limits your grouping options, so it's often difficult or impossible to group with friends.
Dasharr Eandall, SWG, Smuggler/Pistoleer (retired after 2.5+ years)
True, True. All points are valid. No matter how you slice it or what you want to call it, everything still comes down to level of some sort...whether character level, or skill level. There just isn't a way around that. A skill based system does allow anyone to group with anyone and be somewhat effective. If you pick up a weapon for the first time, or the 1,000th time....if you put the blade through the heart, you'll get a kill. Just your chances are higher for this to happen if it's the 1,000th time. That would help take the "in sync" part out to a point. The combat systems well, I guess I should say the aggro system in most games is lacking. You can't tell me that a wild bear 10 levels above me will darn near run across the zone to kill me, but the same ferocious beast will all but ignore me when I am 10 levels above it. Level should not play a factor into how far away something attacks you. Unless I have some sort of skill, I shouldn't be able to get within X distance of something that is an aggressive creature. Either someone can stand 10yards away from it or they can't. It shouldn't be, OK, you guys that I'm grouped with stand back because you have a larger aggro range...let me pull it.
Bottom line is, there is no ONE answer. The best we can hope for is a blend of all the best elements. Everyone has different tastes and styles of gameplay and what they like. This will never change. There is no one game that can please everyone, or address all every issue. Such is life. There is no "perfect" system. But it is frustrating to see cookie cutter games jumping into the market. It would be nice if the developers would sit back and take the time and do it "right" Bring in the best elements that gamers want and make a diverse world. If you want to run around and stab stuff to death with a sharp object, its in there. If you want to be a skilled character, it's in there. If you want to master everything in the game, it's in there....it'll just take you a LONG time to do. Which is fine if you want a game that is in it for the long haul and not just the quick buck for being the hot new item that fades out. Make a game that will challege the player for the long term and you have a customer for the long term.
Hell I played EQ from day 1 for years. Sure it wasn't perfect, but at the time there was no competition either. Well, we all now what path EQ has taken, it's just sad to see these games that have so much potential fall short of what they could become.
Anyway, enough ranting. Let's play!
Levels are what people have come to expect from RPGs, and there is very little incentive for new games to challenge that concept.
Unfortunately the nature of MMOs highlights the weaknesses of a level system instead of playing to its strengths.
Level systems work fine in pen and paper games in which one group moves through a world basically constructed for them by the game master, and the same is true for single player video game RPGs because the developers of the game essentially act as the game master for the player. Everything syncs up nicely.
In an MMO with thousands of people playing in a wide open world levels only serve to stratify the population, and break the world into sections relevant to only a certain range of players who are the proper level for that region.
Levels are the easy way to track a character's advancement just as classes are the easy way to define roles. Personally I'm sick to death of both concepts.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
First of all I totally agree with everything RoadRash said, full plate would slow you down. Like 20% slower attack speed and 20% slower movement and avoidance. Also the heavier the weapon the slower the attack speed. The more strenght the lower the penalties wearing heavy stuff (makes sence).
3boy you have missed out ALOT of things, SWG was revolutionary in too many ways, that's the top reason why everyone misses it, it could have been the absolutely best game on the market. Since it had everything.
Non level based systems works way better and are absolutely more innovative than level based ones.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Levels at the origins are intended to replace skill with intelligence.
Where your success or failure don't relly on reflex and coordination like any outdoor game, but on thinking, on decisions, on choices.
Now what each game made with their levels and how you progress is really up to them, some require more intelligence than other, some require more time, but all in all, as long as they are fun.
I never really understand why someone enjoying "skills" games play on computer, you can go play squash, tennis and so many other games. If you enjoy computer games with skills, fine, I can respect that. But if you denigrate the main reason why computer games exists and are popular IMO, well, you are in for some troubles.
Not to mention that with a computer, you can use all your wits, all your advantages, press every edges you get and there is no reason to feel bad, you are not hurting anyone feelings in anyway.
Go play Counterstrike or Battlefield 1942 if all you care about is skill, they look to be nice games, but I honestly don't care about them nor I will even consider playing them unless to please someone in RL. But you really should play a sport if you focus on skills, sports help your health. While non-skill related game which are based mostly around intelligence are extremely tenuous and limited, sports are varied and complexs. See, outside of the computers I can play chess, but it mean I need to meet with someone, we need to set the board and we only have 1 difficulty setting and we can't adjust it or fine tune it so we learn and progress. On the computer, the options are there and you have far many more options than chess.
Levels replace skills, you are right about that (except in DDO, but that is a weird exception). However levels don't necessarily equal time and downtime, off course it will take time, but it might require you to think and adapt...depending on the game.
Really, if you don't like levels, you should go on sites that have games which don't focus on levels...here, in case you didn't read it, it is a RPG site...and RPGs have levels or "skills" (who work like levels but in precise fields, not skills like actual skill). Otherwise, it is not called a RPG, it is called an ACTION game...RPG and ACTION are not the same type of games and may mix a little, but DDO don't seem to be doing well at all for been the first MMOACTION game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The argument is not about the grind persay because in any thing that you want to learn you need to practice it a lot to get good at it.
The problem i think people are starting to feel is that making a player grind to a certain level to then ending having to force fed certain choices is loosing its appeal.
We are getting tired of the Next *DING*. We have done it mastered it and suppassed it. We are ready and willing now to take the next step in being responsible for the progression of our character for good or bad.
Developers will slowly learn that making games with levels will just not cut it any more.
Since NPC's cant be level restricted as players in a game like this. They will also have to evolve as well.
If i can gain experience and my skill increase with ever kill so should theirs. You cant do this with every NPC but maybe with named Bosses you could.
Faranthil Tanathalos
EverQuest 1 - Ranger
Star Wars Galaxies - Master Ranger
Everquest2 - Ranger WarhammerOnline - Shadow Warrior
WOW - Hunter
That's right I like bows and arrows.
I don't think you got my point truly Anofalye.
I'm pointing out that there are much that could improve in level+time+item dependant MMORPGs.
It has been done without them and it has been done good, and when it has been done it has been experiences above the other ones.
Games without these elements will advance in different ways, it requires thinking from the devs to advance them or take them to a new level. The level+item+time (Lets just call them LIT games) games never advances, when they are supposed to the devs already know what to add anyways, more of the LIT... that way those games never gets anywhere, they simply can't.
LIT games are made as a road, you walk it, you reach the end. At the end you only stay with whatever's left, which would be farming new items.
Anyway, my true point here, are that levels are lame, they automaticly puts you on new higher grounds without you doing anything to earn it truly.
Truly if there are no skills whatsoever in a game it's no point at even playing it. Skills are always the key in whatsoever game, LIT games lacks it so much it hurts. To call "adapting" which you do in LIT games skills is even more scary.
I would not go play BF or CS, there can be skills of that kind in MMORPG's too, they just have to learn how to implement it.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Imo, Eve is the rare exception among skill based games.
SWG had a good system conceptually, but it blew chunks in practice. Certainly you could blame that on SOE ineptness, but I don't see too many other games on the market fairing any better. Skill systems seem to be too ambitious atm.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.