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Targetting
nomadian
Member Posts: 3,490
I like bringing up stuff that bugs me in current mmorpgs and this one has come up recently. It does not seem right that with almost every spell in WoW you simply target whichever target you go for and press a button! You completely remove every element of skill there was, is or could be! I mean imagine a fps, you have someone targetted and you just press the fire button, that to me would be completely rubbish.
I'm not sure what games are like this but I know eq and DAoC were more or less the same. Would be good to see more non targettable abilities/spells.
Comments
I cannot remember because I only played a mage for a couple of days in WoW, but do their spells always hit? I know the targeting is always accurate, but the spell doesn't always do damage does it? I know this was not the case in City of Heroes at least. Many times I heard the repeated "whiffing" sounds of my shadow maul missing my opponent.
Sure this automatic targeting seems like easy mode to those of us who also play FPS, and live or die by our accuracy, but a lot of RPG players either don't like, or are not good at FPS games.
I'd love to see a better way that was a little more involving, but this is the one part of MMOs on which I'm short of ideas of how to improve it.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.
Exactly these are mmorpgs. Meaning they will try and duplicate RPG elements. One such element is that it isnt you who is making your character do stuff, its the dex rating or hit rating on the character. This is actually the fundamental basis of an Roleplaying game. Your playing a role so it shouldnt be dependant on your reaction time and stuff, it really is dependant on your characters reaction time.
they are correct targeting may be automatic but the spell/weapon hitting or even doing full damage are based on things such as attack ratings defense rating character movement ( best way to beat many spells in wow is to get behind the caster causing them to lose LoS ).
As for a good mix of fps/turn based I think NCsoft has come pretty close with Auto Assault, turrets target lock front and rear weapons are point and shoot, with the rpg style stats effect tohit and damage.
It may by no means be prefect but they seem to be on the right track.
There has also been the notion that the stats on paper and dice and such... were used because it was a somewhat tricky bussiness safely to translate your own swordmanship into something that could determine who won a fight.
And even if what rpg's tend to focus on is character stats over player skills, they still base their actions on player decisions. I see a lot of "this is rpg, this is not" when I read these boards, and it seems some people don't want new avenues to be tried out.
Not bashing anybody.
Just pointing out that if somebody made a roleplaying game that shifted a little more of the skill-burden to the player, it wouldn't ruin the genre, just create a game that isn't WoW in a new wrapper.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I agree I don't want a game based on reflexes asuch, nor am I talking about 'difficult' aiming. Something that was in WC3 as an example was simply a wave spell. You did damage to all mobs in a certain wave. All was required with that was aiming it towards the mob. In Pvp this would be much more welcome especially as you try to anticipate where the player will go. By the current systems you just don't and I just think its backwards.
As to the defence of its being 'rpg' well how many people play on roleplaying servers? Barely any on WoW, in fact a lot of the appeal seems to be around pvp so I would think that would be a lot more emphasis.
Additionally, I'm also not talking about 'reflex'. For example, imagine a heal that a shaman could cast in a set area that heals 2 opponents at once instead of it being directly targetted.
Dude i have no clue what your getting at?
Are you saying...i am fighting mob "a" but i want to pretend i have no clue what i am fighting ?What is wrong with auto target?you know what the heck you are aiming at don't you?So why make it any harder than it should be?The only way to add realism,is already in efect"its called hit/miss" or a roll of die like DnD uses.
Rifle games add a sort of realism by having the aim move/wander ,so that you have to decide when to pull the trigger,however beyond that i don't really see any other way to have realism in a computer program.
I really miss your point i guess,because in every game you DO have to target something,its not automatically targeted for you.Once you know what your going to target then auto target clicks in,i have no problem with that at all.Unlesss your saying you might forget what you targeted ? and need to re- target it again every time?I just don't get what your after?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Targetting is not the problem actually.
The problem is that, for example, ranged attacks are not projectile-ballistic in nature -- which gives rise to such absurdities as "guided missile" arrows or magic bolts chasing someone around the corner.
The same could be said for melee attacks where you could "face" and "stick" to a target, but actually hitting that target "where you swing" and having the target's movements, jumping backwards for example, come into play for hits and misses.
I have played games where melee attacks were very dependent on proximity to the target (if it moved away, you missed) and where ranged attacks would also miss due to the target's movements.
THAT is skill and strategy -- which seems to be often removed from modern, dumbed-down MMORPGs.
The skill part comes from making combat similar but not identical to FPS combat. Locking onto a target to "face" or "follow" it seems fine, it keeps you oriented towards your target to minimize the effects of "bunny-hopping" and "strafe-dancing."
But after the initial lock-on, it seems to make sense that "skill," e.g. leading or anticipating your target's movements in order to hit it or keeping a target in melee range, is the part that is sadly lacking from many games.
Also, by figuring in actual "archery" or "magic" or "melee" skill levels vs. your target, could provide damage variance as well as skill levels providing "improved pathing" (accuracy) for ranged attacks and faster, more lethal attacks in melee fighting.
So ... it's not so much the "targetting" per se -- it's what happens after you target that makes the combat complex and interesting where both "skill level" and "player skill" come into play.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Damn I wrote a reply earlier and thought it posted but it didn't but it was along the lines of aiming spells, for example simply targetting a person and then clicking a button seems not very fun. And yeah similar to what the above poster said esp. this
The game doesn't have to be a fps to have these qualities, wc3 had some of them and it wasn't a fps.
Well that is the main reason i liked playing FFXI,there battle system is by far the best there is.The ranged atttacks have a sweet spot,that if your not in it the damage and accuracy differ.You can even miss your target,and like i mentioned the only way to do that is by a random or die roll that is already common in most games.
The other part is the mobs AI.Since most mobs are designed to attck you once engaged they really wont be using ,much in the way of defensive tactics.There is a good reason for this.If mobs went into a defensive mode like moving outa range it would be way to easy to flee the battle if you cant win,this is why they kinda go all out attack.The other factor would be too easy to keep yourself healed if it went into say defensive modes.
The whole idea that people want more realism will NEVER happen in computer games.Mob AI are nothing more than input from a computer program and real players will always be plagued by ping/connection differences.Now it is possible to play on a LAN connection but even that is not perfect.There is so many factors that would be weighed into realism.Example...if it were real how would the weight of the weapon effect your aim,you could never make that perfect using a program,you only simulate or guess it.How would each players stamina change in real is another one.Imagine being totally exhausted,your aim would deffinately be off,but how you could you simulate this for each individual..answer its not possible and never will be.
Maybe when we are dead and they start using full hands on 3d machines that have wires hooked up to read your body responses,then you might see more realism,but i bet thats not until the year 2030+ or beyond.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Who said anything about realism? I just want combat that isn't boring.
When people will pay others to play a game for them it might be a sign the game isn't all that fun.