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I think if there is one thing that can be said about MMORPGs...
seeyouspacec0wboy
Member UncommonPosts: 714
It is that a fair amount of uphill battle is important. Now, I'm not trying to argue hardcore vs. casual, sandbox vs theme park etc. However, if you look around any number of MMORPG related web sites and forums it has been clear for years now that at least the general consensus is that the last great and truly memorable MMORPG was vanilla WoW. Now, I know it marked a departure from the style of the games that came before it and is different in many ways, but we can't deny it's success.
So games like Ultima Online, Final Fantasy XI, Everquest, DAoC, SWG, vanilla WoW and a handful of others from that era are the games we almost always see being eluded to as the good ol days. They are all different. Some are sandboxes, some really arent, some are pvp focused, some are not. They are all varying degrees of "hardcore". BUT, what they all shared was some core elements that kept you engaged in the leveling process for quite some time. Vanilla WoW was on the shorter end of this of course, but even then people spent a LOT of time exploring the game and getting involved in server stuff and open world PVP. It wasnt a straight rush to level cap in the beginning for everybody. People need to have a challenge that keeps them coming back, to always be able to see their character improving and to have new areas to explore. It needs to be a more drawn out and interesting process. There is this argument that always gets thrown around saying "people don't have that kind of time anymore". Jobs and schools structures haven't changed one bit in the last 15+ years. Where have peoples time gone? Make an MMORPG that hooks somebody and they will make the time for it, because they are hooked.
This just seems so damn obvious to me, because the one thing that every MMORPG has had in common since WoW started releasing expansions is that the goal was to get people to level cap more and more quickly. End game has come to define the MMO, but there is nothing engaging enough in MMORPG end games to keep people doing the same thing over and over again, ESPECIALLY when they don't even feel accomplished having gotten there. Its one thing to work really hard and spend a long time adventuring (whatever that means in your particular game) to get to the "end game" where it feels like a privileged to be able to be doing that end game stuff.
We're starting to see a small shift back towards these sorts of games as the big AAA developers are finally backing out of the genre and smaller devs are picking up the reigns. Hopefully we can go back to the magical concepts of older MMORPGs but with modern mechanics and implementations soon.
So games like Ultima Online, Final Fantasy XI, Everquest, DAoC, SWG, vanilla WoW and a handful of others from that era are the games we almost always see being eluded to as the good ol days. They are all different. Some are sandboxes, some really arent, some are pvp focused, some are not. They are all varying degrees of "hardcore". BUT, what they all shared was some core elements that kept you engaged in the leveling process for quite some time. Vanilla WoW was on the shorter end of this of course, but even then people spent a LOT of time exploring the game and getting involved in server stuff and open world PVP. It wasnt a straight rush to level cap in the beginning for everybody. People need to have a challenge that keeps them coming back, to always be able to see their character improving and to have new areas to explore. It needs to be a more drawn out and interesting process. There is this argument that always gets thrown around saying "people don't have that kind of time anymore". Jobs and schools structures haven't changed one bit in the last 15+ years. Where have peoples time gone? Make an MMORPG that hooks somebody and they will make the time for it, because they are hooked.
This just seems so damn obvious to me, because the one thing that every MMORPG has had in common since WoW started releasing expansions is that the goal was to get people to level cap more and more quickly. End game has come to define the MMO, but there is nothing engaging enough in MMORPG end games to keep people doing the same thing over and over again, ESPECIALLY when they don't even feel accomplished having gotten there. Its one thing to work really hard and spend a long time adventuring (whatever that means in your particular game) to get to the "end game" where it feels like a privileged to be able to be doing that end game stuff.
We're starting to see a small shift back towards these sorts of games as the big AAA developers are finally backing out of the genre and smaller devs are picking up the reigns. Hopefully we can go back to the magical concepts of older MMORPGs but with modern mechanics and implementations soon.
Originally posted by Scagweed22
is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life
Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.
Comments
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
So by listening to the desires of the masses, they managed to kill off (or horribly mutate) what was once a very fun genre for some of us.
It's OK, I've got a safe haven which is likely to last another 10 years, and who knows, one of these indie titles is likely to break out and who knows, I might even like it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I will certainly enjoy my PS4 moving forward, and I'm looking forward to getting into different types of games, like Overwatch and Single Player RPGs again, which tend to get decent amount of content expansions in this new era of connected gaming.
I think I've grown out of the fascination with the extended dependency of other players to have fun in a game that I pay for, and I have no will to spend extended periods of time in front of a computer to play a game, either. I like laying in my bed or sitting on my couch/in my recliner and being entertained.
And I really like buying one machine and never having to worry about system requirements for 4-6 years (unless it breaks and I need to replace it).
I don't care about challenge. I don't get feelings of accomplishment from a game, not in the manner some people seem to want. It's just not a serious thing for me anymore. It's a form of entertainment.
Raid Schedules, Quest Grind Burnout, "<Level> <Class> LFG for <Objective>, PST!", etc....
I'm over it, and time is too precious waiting for some angel developers to somehow reinvent a genre that, frankly, doesn't want to be reinvented no matter how loud the brutish minority screams on a forum.
So now we're caught in a dragon eating its own tail cycle of each game trying to out "easy" the next game.
It's like Dark Souls. Everyone talks about how hard that series of games are. I remember when that level of difficulty was simply called "gaming". Now, however, you release a challenging game and everyone throws their arms up and yells "Holy crap, this game is actually hard!"
How do you curb that mentality,impossible you won't they have it embedded in their heads.
The whole idea behind any sport or game is to challenge yourself,yet so many seem to want to break that idea,idk what their thought process is but i am sure they have no logical reasoning.
What i also see is that developers have no confidence in themselves,they seem to stick to the same over used formula that level 1-10 is not even remotely a challenge and 100% meaningless.I guess they are worried that if they don't give some early EASY mode levels everyone will find their game too hard and quit.Like i said your not going to change the lame mentality of those that need easy free handouts but for the others you just need to make a good fun game and they will stick around.
Of course FUN is way over used and for the most part BS,what people really want is lots to do,lots to discover and many just like nice challenging systems.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
But they used metrics as well. It starts with a dungeon that takes 4 hours with a loot dropping boss that N players running it. They try a similar dungeon that takes 2 hours and 2N run it. Next they try a 1 hour dungeon and get 4N running it. The numbers don't lie people love the 1 hour version! That's metrics!!!!
Wonder what N would go to if you setup a friendly NPC that you click on to get the same gear? Those numbers would be off the chart therefore they should remove dungeon and have friendly loot NPCs. Metrics don't lie.
Sure someone might say players want a challenge. They want to earn it. But people generally want the path of least resistance.
There is also the echo chamber problem where people in an insular group repeat the same things over and over again until they all believe. Why not, the group isn't challenging it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
A week at wow vanilla release? Is that over 7 days or /played 7 days? Something smells wrong.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Indie games have always been their own category and I don't see that changing. It's a completely different league and even very succesful projects like Minecraft can never hope to transcend. The only exception that might have a small chance of transcending the leagues might be Star Citizen, but only if it launches succesfully, secures a really huge community and Chris Roberts keeps investing hundreds of millions of dollars more into building and growing that franchise, developing many different aspects of it, spinning a web of related off-game projects etc.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
Part of what made the entire industry speed up the leveling process (although that was clearly already in progress, as evidenced by CoH and EQ2, both pre-WoW releases and both considerably less ponderous than EQ1).
The MUDs were fading fast, AOL was dead, and people were tiring of plodding along to support an hourly fee model that no longer existed.
Not coincidentally, the intentional time sinks were being ripped out of almost every title across the board. Even EQ.
When the child asks for some reward (such as chocolate, watching TV, going out to play with friends etc...) the parent should moderate their intake, set healthy goals for such rewards (like finish your homework, eat your vegetables, clean your room etc...).
Otherwise the parent ends up raising fat, unhealthy, lazy, selfish brats.
Welcome to 20 years of bad parenting!
This thread's title sums up MMOS: They don't deliver an ending and "..." comes all to fast.
You can only make the problems MMOs have with endgame worse by making levelling quicker, that is so obvious it seems impossible that designers could conclude otherwise. But an arms race in MMOs has occurred, one where quick levelling is seen as better and the only way to hold on to players. This is not the only design "solution" introduced that has led to the destruction of MMOs as we knew them. Sacrificing gameplay and systems for graphics development time has taken a huge toll.
No doubt, they certainly make money creating titles such as WOTs but I can't fathom the appeal as I'm not really a game player of the modern mold.
I do believe the market for more traditional MMORPG game play is a bit larger than you think, and one day some of these indie titles will manage to cash in on it.
They likely won't be mega successes but a few will reach CCPs level I think.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Also the death of mandatory subscriptions and keeping players subbed as long as possible played a big part.
People are generally ok with being level 20, and doing level 20 content, when 1,000 other people are level 20 also. But they don't like being level 20 when most folks are level 80. So if there is a rapid path to max level, it sows discontent across the board. In the old days, at level 20 you had plenty of company.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Now a lot of them seems to be playing stuff on their IPADs instead and the PC market is once again more and more serious gamers but the games are still mainly cateering for the dwindling casual market.
So I think the gaming trend will move towards more challenging games in the next few years. Then again, that might just be wishful thinking.
I loved the technologies of the game which made it easy to play with the interface and flying, ect.
I loved the classes, which are the classes of old school RPG games.
I however did not like the fact I had no deep storylines or major side storylines which could offer me some sort of high adventure.
I din't like the fact that crafting was so simple and not hundreds of pages of items.
I wish it had more cutscenes like in FFXIV, even crafting side quests made you feel like you were on an adventure worth having.
So yes I liked Vanilla WoW, for gameplay and alot of things, but I did not like the shallow storylines and storytelling atleast to the level of LOTRO, or other games of that era.
LIke it yes, wish they would have taken the millions of dollars for the movie this summer and made a storyline that epic with technologies of cutscenes or ect inside the game to give me the ultimate storytelling of high adventure as good as the movie looks today.
When games have complete maps, with all the markers and even leading arrows on the ground where to find something, what's the challenge? I remember Istaria (formerly Horizons). You map was just empty and did not fill itself, but you could place markers yourself and name them. Meaning, if you did not saw a questgiver or target or ressource before, you just had to ask someone. That formed the best community I ever experienced in a game, just because you need help every day and pretty much everyone like to group up and help.
Furtheron: Characters. Man I am really really tired of playing humanoid characters. It soooooo boring to always see the same. Even worse: Predefined classes in the style of Tank, DD and healer. Come on, we had that thousands of times! Again Istaria is pretty unique by supporting dragons, dryads or saris, which were all quite different, yet powerful in their ways. Alien vs Predator for example was pretty cool, just because of the possibility to play alien and hav to think like one. Well... better not think, just be fast, and faster.
Useful crafting is another thing that makes a difference. Cut back loot will make people trade and play together. And that is, why there are MMORPGs, right? "Modern" MMOs are more like single player games to play through in a couple of hours. *yawn*
Any game fighting real humans will be harder then fighting mobs and games with lower powergaps means it is harder to see if you can just autowin a combat against someone or not as in most MMOs.
The problem though is that most devs think that just increasing the HP of a mob will make it harder but it does honestly just make it slower, not the same thing. Mobs need to become less predictable so you just can't skill rotate them to death.
And yes, marking out every single point on a map is a bit too much, that they mark out larger cities and lakes is one thing but they could leave some things for us to explore.
Being able to play weird races is a nice bonus but it really is no big deal for me (even though I wonder why TOR don't have wookies, they are the single most popular none human SW race). Gameplay is the important thing in my book.
What's obvious is that the subscriber numbers in the millions only happened after devs responded to frequent player requests to speed things up. That change took place not just in WoW, but across the entire industry, including EQ. Once they made that change, the mmo market (literally) exploded in profits and in size.
Will the pendulum swing back? Maybe, in a limited way.
But it's more likely that the new market now belongs to all of those millions of new players, and not to the handful of reactionary fossils who demand EQHumpty's reconstruction.
For example raiding in Molten Core wasn't really hard. It was more of a gear check. However the biggest challenge (and a rewarding) one was to have 40 like-minded players in 1 group. No bullshit going on about required classes. Okay you needed a main tank (and a hunter with tranq shot for 1 fight), but most slots could be filled by anyone. Sure some builds were blocked, like shadow priest, but no entire class was banned or limited to join the raid.
Horde and Alliance guilds had schedules on my server, when to turn in Onyxia Heads for a 2 hour buff. Meaningless battles for Tarren Mill or Cross Roads, just for fun and giggles.
Sometimes I have seen a glimpe of community in later games, but when a player got his item or personal goals fulfilled, he drops the guild and moves on to the next game.