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Blizzard Responds to the Legacy Server Issue

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Thupli said:

    ^^

    Actually no. I paid for each of these as a separate game and signed agreements for each of them separately.

    I own windows NT, windows XP, windows 7. They are all seperate OS systems that I can use even though they have the same source code. No different with WoW.

    maybe you bought yours all bundled and signs one agreement for them all, but I did not.

    I bought them and didn't sign anything, all there was, was a EULA

    Seen my new cigarette lighter in the stores?

    You see.... buy purchasing it, you automatically agree to my EULA. the EULA is printed inside the box and you may not return the product if the box has been opened. You may however visit my website and view the EULA before your purchase.

    The lighter is called a cigarette lighter and is for the exclusive use of lighting a cigarette ONLY. If you use the product to light a cigar or god help you a Campfire... you are breaking the law and are infringing on my IP.

    You will then be a Thief and a Pirate.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • TanemundTanemund Member UncommonPosts: 154
    edited April 2016
    Must be an echo in here.



    We can't even agree among ourselves.  After reading several threads on this I'm not sure we even know what we're trying to convince Blizzard of anymore.  Terms like "Vanilla WoW", "Legacy Servers" and "Progression Servers" have been bandied about without any definition.  And when someone does actually define what they want, someone else will pipe up with a feature they want added to that.



    As for stating with certainty that there are untold millions who would suddenly return if "Vanilla WoW" servers were available because they quit WoW due to hatred of WoW in its current form and they yearn for Vanilla WoW, I don't think we can do that.  Why?  Well, let me use myself as an example.



    I played WoW at release on several servers (My first was Uther, one of the problem child servers that crashed every night between 7:00 PM and 8:00 PM EST and my first toon was a Paladin.  I messed up in every way possible) up through Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King.  I enjoyed the game and had a lot of fun playing it.  Then one day I decided I wasn't having fun and I quit playing WoW.  I don't even remember what it was that caused me to decide I wasn't having fun anymore.  I just remember unsubscribing and then I went and found another game to play.  I don't remember which game I adopted after WoW, honestly.  That's it really.  I wouldn't come back to play Vanilla WoW, Chocolate WoW or Rocky Road WoW.  I don't really have thoughts on which "phase" of WoW was best.  I had fun until I wasn't having fun anymore.  Period.  So I'm done spending my time on WoW.



    Maybe my perspective is different because WoW was my third major MMO.  Before that I'd played DAoC and CoH.  I remember quitting DAoC because I didn't want to do the Master Levels thing in Trials of Atlantis and I remember writing that in several places.  I hated ToA and knew it caused me to quit.  I knew others that quit because of it as well.  I still believe ToA damaged DAoC and caused players to quit, but I also acknowledge that there were several other factors that caused people to quit DAoC.  I could argue the relative weight of those factors, but those factors still existed.



    DAoC was my first game and I still remember it fondly.  But I also know that if Mythic suddenly reversed itself and reset the servers to what they were at launch I wouldn't go back.  Why?  Because it was the community in the game that made me love it and no matter what version of the game was on the servers, the community I loved had quit and moved on and they weren't coming back.  I knew when the "Classic Servers" came up that if I logged on and popped open my friends list, it would be empty and the names of people that had drifted away during my time in DAoC would never grace that list again. 



    At best it would be like a High School Reunion and we'd get together for a bit and share a few memories and then drift off again because we'd all moved on to other things.  The worst that could happen was my happy memories of DAoC would be tainted by trying to relive them and failing.  It wasn't just the game that had changed.  The gamers had changed as well and that sense of wonder and discovery wouldn't be there.  I know everything there was to know about the game and if I forgot some, well there were five websites with walk - throughs to consult.



    By the time I quit WoW I was a veteran MMO player.  I didn't get emotionally attached to WoW like I did to DAoC or even CoX.  I quit WoW like I would quit reading a book I wasn't enjoying.  I just put it down, walked over to the book shelf and got another book.  No long "goodbye" post, no "ragequit" feedback to Blizzard, no complaints on attenuated message boards.  I quit because it wasn't fun anymore and I don't remember what aspect of the game "caused" me to think that way.



    Now we can quibble about how many would come back and spin the evidence as we please, but I think if you asked the gamers who quit WoW or any other game their experience would be similar to mine.  They weren't having fun, they quit and now they won't come back because they have moved on to other things.  You might know twenty people who would resubscribe for so called "Vanilla WoW" (whatever that means) and I might know twenty people that will jump naked into a pit full of fire ants for fifty bucks.  That doesn't mean I can extrapolate that millions will do the fire ant pit for fifty bucks.  Things change and people move on.  Its the way of the world. 



    YMMV

    Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Member UncommonPosts: 1,085
    edited April 2016
    Well, they responded, and that's what many of us wanted. While I'd love to play official vanilla servers again and would pay for the privilege, I think Blizzard's in a position where they believe creating these servers would be admitting to hubris, that their newest expansions have ultimately been a let down for at least half of their subscriber base garnered through progression to WotLK, and financially speaking, they don't really need the extra monetization that would come from opening them (if it could even be proved to be profitable).

    I'm not expecting this to happen, and I have no moral qualms about playing on private servers to have this experience if they're not willing to offer it.
    Post edited by Lawlmonster on

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • vwmafiavwmafia Member UncommonPosts: 21
    Let the game die in peace and get over it
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    This guy gets it.

    Of course all the "wow vanilla was awesome" groupies' melodramatic divas gets it!!
    His commentary is actually far more subdued and rational than most of the legacy detractors who post on this forum.
    "Blizzard's killing of nostalirus" and blah blah blah..right..very rational!!!
    Maybe I see it differently because I watched his first video on it.  That one is a lot longer, though; over a half hour.  He articulates his points well.  When I started watching it and saw the length I thought I wouldn't finish it but ended up watching the whole thing.


    I don't need to listen to his points, when he says Blizzard killed nostashit and paint a villainous picture of blizzard. When someone tries to make argument for piracy that is the point i want to tell them to  go fuck themselves.

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    This guy gets it.

    Of course all the "wow vanilla was awesome" groupies' melodramatic divas gets it!!
    His commentary is actually far more subdued and rational than most of the legacy detractors who post on this forum.
    "Blizzard's killing of nostalirus" and blah blah blah..right..very rational!!!
    Maybe I see it differently because I watched his first video on it.  That one is a lot longer, though; over a half hour.  He articulates his points well.  When I started watching it and saw the length I thought I wouldn't finish it but ended up watching the whole thing.


    I don't need to listen to his points, when he says Blizzard killed nostashit and paint a villainous picture of blizzard. When someone tries to make argument for piracy that is the point i want to tell them to  go fuck themselves.
    His argument is about Vanilla WoW, not Nastalrius

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Thupli said:

    Wrong on how other countries view EULA, wrong on people having purchased and paid for the game and software, and wrong that laws even in the US that are beginning to acknowledge that games are indeed subject to the consumer when the company no longer supports them.

    So again, you can name call about being a thief, but in actuality, you still refuse to argue about ownership for those that have purchased the game.
    Here's the thing though, they own a copy of the client, they can use that client to access the game's official live servers, not liking the current live version, is not grounds to take that product and create a free alternative to the service the creator is offering. That essentially creates a competitor who is using their own product against them, there is nothing legal about that, and it would take a crazy court system to side against blizzard in such a case, it just wouldn't happen. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ThupliThupli Member RarePosts: 1,318
    No, they don't have a client for vanilla, tbc, etc, the games that I purchased and signs agreements for. That is the whole problem.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Distopia said:
    Thupli said:

    Wrong on how other countries view EULA, wrong on people having purchased and paid for the game and software, and wrong that laws even in the US that are beginning to acknowledge that games are indeed subject to the consumer when the company no longer supports them.

    So again, you can name call about being a thief, but in actuality, you still refuse to argue about ownership for those that have purchased the game.
    Here's the thing though, they own a copy of the client, they can use that client to access the game's official live servers, not liking the current live version, is not grounds to take that product and create a free alternative to the service the creator is offering. That essentially creates a competitor who is using their own product against them, there is nothing legal about that, and it would take a crazy court system to side against blizzard in such a case, it just wouldn't happen. 
    Let me play Devil's Advocate

    It gets a little stickier than that.

    I have a legally purchased Vanilla Warcraft disk. I have a legal right to use that disk, I payed for it. I have a legal right to use the all assets on that disk for my own personal use and entertainment. I am not modifying or altering anything on that disk.

    Now if someone creates a server emulator written with there own code that lets me use my legally purchased disk for my own use and entertainment. The lines get pretty murky.

    "Fair Use" is not what a copyright holder declares it to be. 

    Consumers also have rights.

    I'm sure these types of legalities will be fought over in the very near future. And what is illegal in one jurisdiction may be legal in another.

    There are valid arguments on both sides.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited April 2016
    Thupli said:
    No, they don't have a client for vanilla, tbc, etc, the games that I purchased and signs agreements for. That is the whole problem.

    Sure they do not have client for vanilla, tbc, etc. because they are just versions of one game, not different games...
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited April 2016
    laserit said:

    Let me play Devil's Advocate

    It gets a little stickier than that.

    I have a legally purchased Vanilla Warcraft disk. I have a legal right to use that disk, I payed for it. I have a legal right to use the all assets on that disk for my own personal use and entertainment. I am not modifying or altering anything on that disk.

    Now if someone creates a server emulator written with there own code that lets me use my legally purchased disk for my own use and entertainment. The lines get pretty murky.

    "Fair Use" is not what a copyright holder declares it to be. 

    Consumers also have rights.

    I'm sure these types of legalities will be fought over in the very near future. And what is illegal in one jurisdiction may be legal in another.

    There are valid arguments on both sides.
    I personally am only focusing on how things work in the US,  as it's a US based company/product... Things certainly get murky in other parts of the world, what happens there doesn't really apply to us here, and what happens here has little to no impact on what happens elsewhere. 

    In US law this isn't so murky, most of these types of laws favor the creator/corporation over the consumer, as it is their IP, creating a free alternative to a paid service (with their own IP as well as assets) would be a pretty open and shut case here in the US (as well as anywhere that would recognize/side with the law as it stands here). 

    That's the biggest issue in a nutshell, the live service and how it would compete with it. No court in the US is going to side with that premise, as no court would force a company into competing against their own product that is in the hands of someone who doesn't own it. That would go against the very nature of business in this country.

    It would really be no different than taking a print of a summer blockbuster and putting it up for public screenings for free while it's still in theaters, it just wouldn't be allowed, as it is unfair competition. You'd just open yourself up to all kinds of civil actions in doing so. 


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Distopia said:
    laserit said:

    Let me play Devil's Advocate

    It gets a little stickier than that.

    I have a legally purchased Vanilla Warcraft disk. I have a legal right to use that disk, I payed for it. I have a legal right to use the all assets on that disk for my own personal use and entertainment. I am not modifying or altering anything on that disk.

    Now if someone creates a server emulator written with there own code that lets me use my legally purchased disk for my own use and entertainment. The lines get pretty murky.

    "Fair Use" is not what a copyright holder declares it to be. 

    Consumers also have rights.

    I'm sure these types of legalities will be fought over in the very near future. And what is illegal in one jurisdiction may be legal in another.

    There are valid arguments on both sides.

    It would really be no different than taking a print of a summer blockbuster and putting it up for public screenings for free while it's still in theaters, it just wouldn't be allowed, as it is unfair competition. You'd just open yourself up to all kinds of civil actions in doing so. 


    I see it very differently.

    It would be like Disney selling me a DVD of the Classic Cartoon version of the Jungle Book and then telling me I'm not allowed to view it anymore because they have a new CGI version playing in the Theater.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    edited April 2016
    The whole thing seems to be summed up like this:

    Should they have legacy servers?  Yes.

    Do they have the right to do what they want with their game?  Yes.

    Is J. Allen Brack a jerk?  Yes.

    These things are not mutually exclusive, they are all true.  Arguing for one does not mean you can't agree with the others.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Baitness said:
    The whole thing seems to be summed up like this:

    Should they have legacy servers?  Yes.

    Do they have the right to do what they want with their game?  Yes.

    Is J. Allen Brack a jerk?  Yes.

    These things are not mutually exclusive, they are all true.  Arguing for one does not mean you can't agree with the others.
    So the first and third are as true as the 2nd one?

    Sorry, I forgot to check in my brain at the door. I should just leave now and come back when I'm as drunk as the rest of you.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    laserit said:
    Distopia said:
    laserit said:

    Let me play Devil's Advocate

    It gets a little stickier than that.

    I have a legally purchased Vanilla Warcraft disk. I have a legal right to use that disk, I payed for it. I have a legal right to use the all assets on that disk for my own personal use and entertainment. I am not modifying or altering anything on that disk.

    Now if someone creates a server emulator written with there own code that lets me use my legally purchased disk for my own use and entertainment. The lines get pretty murky.

    "Fair Use" is not what a copyright holder declares it to be. 

    Consumers also have rights.

    I'm sure these types of legalities will be fought over in the very near future. And what is illegal in one jurisdiction may be legal in another.

    There are valid arguments on both sides.

    It would really be no different than taking a print of a summer blockbuster and putting it up for public screenings for free while it's still in theaters, it just wouldn't be allowed, as it is unfair competition. You'd just open yourself up to all kinds of civil actions in doing so. 


    I see it very differently.

    It would be like Disney selling me a DVD of the Classic Cartoon version of the Jungle Book and then telling me I'm not allowed to view it anymore because they have a new CGI version playing in the Theater.
    On a personal level I can agree with that as there are worse cases of it in MMORPG land, at least they don't give you a plaque saying you survived the NGE :P...

    On the other-hand my point was looking at how I'd figure courts to rule on it. 


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Distopia said:
     No court in the US is going to...
    Apparently you have never stated to a sitting judge... "You can't do that"... because if you did, I can assure you, they will do exactly what you claim they can't do.  Now their decision may get overturned in an appeal, but in their courtroom, their decision is absolute.

    The law in the US is not as black and white as you think it is... on any given day a good lawyer can make a case for anything.  That's how new case law is made.  Because if it was as clear cut and black and white as you think it is, there would be no reason to argue a case against the established law.  

    Blizzard isn't taking anyone to court... they merely threatened to do it.  They also know the parties involved don't have the deep pockets to challenge them.  So in essence, Blizzard hasn't proven their case, they merely intimidated their opponent into no contest.  That's not the same thing as being in the 'right'.

    Find someone with the resources of Bill Gates to challenge the law and they could very well change it.  No one has tried... yet.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Pepeq said:
    Distopia said:
     No court in the US is going to...
    Apparently you have never stated to a sitting judge... "You can't do that"... because if you did, I can assure you, they will do exactly what you claim they can't do.  Now their decision may get overturned in an appeal, but in their courtroom, their decision is absolute.

    The law in the US is not as black and white as you think it is... on any given day a good lawyer can make a case for anything.  That's how new case law is made.  Because if it was as clear cut and black and white as you think it is, there would be no reason to argue a case against the established law.  

    Blizzard isn't taking anyone to court... they merely threatened to do it.  They also know the parties involved don't have the deep pockets to challenge them.  So in essence, Blizzard hasn't proven their case, they merely intimidated their opponent into no contest.  That's not the same thing as being in the 'right'.

    Find someone with the resources of Bill Gates to challenge the law and they could very well change it.  No one has tried... yet.

    Can you show me one example of anyone winning the right to use another person's intellectual property in such a manner? It's hard enough in many cases for folks to get control of property they had a hand in making for distribution purposes, there are plenty of examples of that in the movie business, where movies sit in limbo for years due to publisher vs creator cases ( monster squad as an example). 

    Sure a judge can get a wild-hair up their behind making an outlandish decision to do so, I can't imagine that ruling would last very long though, especially based on the premise you put forth (did it just cause they can)... You'd have a steep uphill climb to win a case like we're discussing, IE Joe Schmoe wants to offer a corporations actual product for free, while having no claim to that intellectual property what so ever.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ThupliThupli Member RarePosts: 1,318
    No need to repeat myself as I have answered that up thread a few posts.
  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Member RarePosts: 1,531
    Daily Reminder, that Pristine Servers are the same game, but slow.

    Blizzard is Nexon tier.
  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    edited April 2016
    Iselin said:
    Baitness said:
    The whole thing seems to be summed up like this:

    Should they have legacy servers?  Yes.

    Do they have the right to do what they want with their game?  Yes.

    Is J. Allen Brack a jerk?  Yes.

    These things are not mutually exclusive, they are all true.  Arguing for one does not mean you can't agree with the others.
    So the first and third are as true as the 2nd one?

    Sorry, I forgot to check in my brain at the door. I should just leave now and come back when I'm as drunk as the rest of you.
    Yes, they are all "as true" as each other, and really arguing against any of them is just silly at this point.  If you think Blizzard should ignore the hundreds of thousands of players interested in playing legacy, that is crazy - other devs would love to be in their situation.  If you think they are not entitled to do whatever they want anyway, you are just wrong.  If you think Brack isn't a jerk, then you probably are unaware how his recent letter to the community directly contradicts what he said at Blizzcon.

    Continuing to argue about any of these things is just bizarre.

    But apparently you think it is brainless to argue the only positions that have any backing evidence at all.  If you still think any of those statements aren't true, you have not been paying attention.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Baitness said:
    Iselin said:
    Baitness said:
    The whole thing seems to be summed up like this:

    Should they have legacy servers?  Yes.

    Do they have the right to do what they want with their game?  Yes.

    Is J. Allen Brack a jerk?  Yes.

    These things are not mutually exclusive, they are all true.  Arguing for one does not mean you can't agree with the others.
    So the first and third are as true as the 2nd one?

    Sorry, I forgot to check in my brain at the door. I should just leave now and come back when I'm as drunk as the rest of you.
    Yes, they are all "as true" as each other, and really arguing against any of them is just silly at this point.  If you think Blizzard should ignore the hundreds of thousands of players interested in playing legacy, that is crazy - other devs would love to be in their situation.  If you think they are not entitled to do whatever they want anyway, you are just wrong.  If you think Brack isn't a jerk, then you probably are unaware how his recent letter to the community directly contradicts what he said at Blizzcon.

    Continuing to argue about any of these things is just bizarre.
    One and three are just opinions and biased, fringe ones at that. Like something a drunken sailor would say at closing time, usually preceded by "and another frigging thing..."  Only number two is true and undeniable.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    Iselin said:
    Baitness said:
    Iselin said:
    Baitness said:
    The whole thing seems to be summed up like this:

    Should they have legacy servers?  Yes.

    Do they have the right to do what they want with their game?  Yes.

    Is J. Allen Brack a jerk?  Yes.

    These things are not mutually exclusive, they are all true.  Arguing for one does not mean you can't agree with the others.
    So the first and third are as true as the 2nd one?

    Sorry, I forgot to check in my brain at the door. I should just leave now and come back when I'm as drunk as the rest of you.
    Yes, they are all "as true" as each other, and really arguing against any of them is just silly at this point.  If you think Blizzard should ignore the hundreds of thousands of players interested in playing legacy, that is crazy - other devs would love to be in their situation.  If you think they are not entitled to do whatever they want anyway, you are just wrong.  If you think Brack isn't a jerk, then you probably are unaware how his recent letter to the community directly contradicts what he said at Blizzcon.

    Continuing to argue about any of these things is just bizarre.
    One and three are just opinions and biased, fringe ones at that. Like something a drunken sailor would say at closing time, usually preceded by "and another frigging thing..."  Only number two is true and undeniable.
    Not really.  With Nostalrius alone we know there were 150,000 + players interested in playing legacy - from one server with no advertising.  The petition has over 200,000 players interested.  That is a huge playerbase for any game, especially one that does not need to be developed. 

    J. Allen Brack being a jerk is something the WoW community has been well aware of for years, but in this case I am specifically referring to him saying that they had never even thought about having vanilla servers at blizzcon, then turning around in this letter and claiming that they had been discussing it for years.  You can see his letter linked in the first post, and you can find what he said at blizzcon all over youtube.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    edited April 2016
    Pepeq said:
    Distopia said:
     No court in the US is going to...


    Blizzard isn't taking anyone to court... they merely threatened to do it.  They also know the parties involved don't have the deep pockets to challenge them.  So in essence, Blizzard hasn't proven their case, they merely intimidated their opponent into no contest.  That's not the same thing as being in the 'right'.

    Find someone with the resources of Bill Gates to challenge the law and they could very well change it.  No one has tried... yet.

    However the threat is enough for the servers to shut down so in effect Blizzard achieved their goal . There's no need to argue about what the court might decide since the mere threat  is more than enough. The proof is in the pudding. 

    There is also no proof that a large number of players will pay to play aside from individual assertions which is of little value since it furthers an agenda. The only evidence you have is that players will play the vanilla game when it's free. That is the only evidence you have and the number willing to support a server Blizzard sets up could not even reach a decent number in signatures.

    In effect , it only showed Blizzard what they already know that it is of little or perhaps no profit for them to pursue this player base.

    You can lambaste them for their greed or unwillingness to support a player base but they are a business not a charity and stealing from them will not strengthen your stand.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    They have a survey when you leave their game.  People have had their opportunity to voice their dissatisfaction .

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    edited April 2016
    I think ,cannot recall it has been some time since I left. There is a 'other reasons' and a space to answer. Every dedicated advocate of vanilla  interested in leaving feedback can take a subscription and leave a feedback even now. Like they say put your money where your mouth is.

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