Magic = SWG jedi grind?

Slapshot1188 · May 2016

whilan said: Anyway to be able to cast invisibility you'd probably either need an alchemist of some sort (if one exists) to buy or you can make your own potions to turn you invisible but you'd have to train yourself up for that first beforehand. Otherwise You'd have to use magic. To cast magic you'd first have to get somewhat lucky and do the right things to unlock the magic trait in your character. To what those are...are still unknown to me. Second you'd have to get the right ingredients (this isn't hard if you know what you are doing) then you'd have to cast the spell and from the way they make it sound that takes time and i'm not talking 3 or so seconds. I'm talking maybe a minute of solid casting. Being stuck in a location for even a minute is not good for an assassin that's trying to be careful, especially if that comes with any associated particle effects.

Granted between now and "launch" this is all subject to change but unless you have solid access to some kind of invisibility potion, it might be better just to wait until night or when no one is looking and be careful.

So I cut the above from another thread so as not to hijack it (emphasis mine above). I am intrigued but also concerned by the highlighted statement.

I love the idea of magic being rare BUT the SWG profession grind for jedi was a disaster, and this sounds very similar. Any other details on this?

This could be a GREAT selling point... or a stake through the heart if done wrong.

waynejr2 · May 2016

Slapshot1188 said:

whilan said: Anyway to be able to cast invisibility you'd probably either need an alchemist of some sort (if one exists) to buy or you can make your own potions to turn you invisible but you'd have to train yourself up for that first beforehand. Otherwise You'd have to use magic. To cast magic you'd first have to get somewhat lucky and do the right things to unlock the magic trait in your character. To what those are...are still unknown to me. Second you'd have to get the right ingredients (this isn't hard if you know what you are doing) then you'd have to cast the spell and from the way they make it sound that takes time and i'm not talking 3 or so seconds. I'm talking maybe a minute of solid casting. Being stuck in a location for even a minute is not good for an assassin that's trying to be careful, especially if that comes with any associated particle effects.

Granted between now and "launch" this is all subject to change but unless you have solid access to some kind of invisibility potion, it might be better just to wait until night or when no one is looking and be careful.
So I cut the above from another thread so as not to hijack it (emphasis mine above). I am intrigued but also concerned by the highlighted statement.

I love the idea of magic being rare BUT the SWG profession grind for jedi was a disaster, and this sounds very similar. Any other details on this?

This could be a GREAT selling point... or a stake through the heart if done wrong.

Oh, so you don't like it and you construct this odd argument equating this to the swg jedi system. I'd say that is a stretch. If you don't have fun putting in effort then perhaps it isn't for you.

whilan · May 2016

Slapshot1188 said:

whilan said: Anyway to be able to cast invisibility you'd probably either need an alchemist of some sort (if one exists) to buy or you can make your own potions to turn you invisible but you'd have to train yourself up for that first beforehand. Otherwise You'd have to use magic. To cast magic you'd first have to get somewhat lucky and do the right things to unlock the magic trait in your character. To what those are...are still unknown to me. Second you'd have to get the right ingredients (this isn't hard if you know what you are doing) then you'd have to cast the spell and from the way they make it sound that takes time and i'm not talking 3 or so seconds. I'm talking maybe a minute of solid casting. Being stuck in a location for even a minute is not good for an assassin that's trying to be careful, especially if that comes with any associated particle effects.

Granted between now and "launch" this is all subject to change but unless you have solid access to some kind of invisibility potion, it might be better just to wait until night or when no one is looking and be careful.
So I cut the above from another thread so as not to hijack it (emphasis mine above). I am intrigued but also concerned by the highlighted statement.

I love the idea of magic being rare BUT the SWG profession grind for jedi was a disaster, and this sounds very similar. Any other details on this?

This could be a GREAT selling point... or a stake through the heart if done wrong.

From what I understand and just to bear in mind I didn't play SWG before the whole Jedi class was already pickable at the start. From what I understand it's down to a few things, 1. If your soul has the ability to learn that trait. 2. How close you are to the story itself 3. if you've done the right thing. None of these are known to you and they make it sound like it's different for each person so you can't track down and repeat what player A did and do it so you can get it. I also seem to remember if you perma die (not just die in combat) you lose those traits..not sure if that's still a thing now though

They want magic to be very rare at the beginning and as time goes on in the next 10 years (RL time) magic becomes more prevalent.

Least that's the way I understand it. I haven't been in any IRC chats or talk to the dev directly so that's my current understanding as I've not seen any more info beyond it's hard to get and it's based on a trait...then they detail how getting traits work.

How well they implement that...remains to be seen.

Slapshot1188 · May 2016

waynejr2 said:

Oh, so you don't like it and you construct this odd argument equating this to the swg jedi system. I'd say that is a stretch. If you don't have fun putting in effort then perhaps it isn't for you.

Odd argument?

To cast magic you'd first have to get somewhat lucky and do the right things to unlock the magic trait in your character.

In SWG you had to grind skills to find the random ones that would unlock the jedi skill. If it's just EFFORT, like you need to learn and train skill X but it is a long and slow process, then that sounds GREAT!. if it's getting "lucky" and "doing the right things" that sounds like SWG was at release.

Help educate me. It was a question and a request for more details...

Slapshot1188 · May 2016

whilan said:

From what I understand and just to bear in mind I didn't play SWG before the whole Jedi class was already pickable at the start. From what I understand it's down to a few things, 1. If your soul has the ability to learn that trait. 2. How close you are to the story itself 3. if you've done the right thing. None of these are known to you and they make it sound like it's different for each person so you can't track down and repeat what player A did and do it so you can get it. I also seem to remember if you perma die (not just die in combat) you lose those traits..not sure if that's still a thing now though

They want magic to be very rare at the beginning and as time goes on in the next 10 years (RL time) magic becomes more prevalent.

Least that's the way I understand it. I haven't been in any IRC chats or talk to the dev directly so that's my current understanding as I've not seen any more info beyond it's hard to get and it's based on a trait...then they detail how getting traits work.

How well they implement that...remains to be seen.

Thanks for that info. It's the 3rd part that has me concerned and to a lesser extent the 1st one.

The 3rd part sounds an awful lot like the initial SWG jedi grind where you had to learn random skill to mastery to "unlock" the jedi...

The 1st part is concerning simply because souls are monetized and if a player wants to be a "mage" but his randomly assigned soul doesn't let him that could suck. I'd be willing to give it a shot though because there has to be SOME way to limit magic in games. I like this idea a lot better than the 3rd one.

whilan · May 2016

Slapshot1188 said:

whilan said:

From what I understand and just to bear in mind I didn't play SWG before the whole Jedi class was already pickable at the start. From what I understand it's down to a few things, 1. If your soul has the ability to learn that trait. 2. How close you are to the story itself 3. if you've done the right thing. None of these are known to you and they make it sound like it's different for each person so you can't track down and repeat what player A did and do it so you can get it. I also seem to remember if you perma die (not just die in combat) you lose those traits..not sure if that's still a thing now though

They want magic to be very rare at the beginning and as time goes on in the next 10 years (RL time) magic becomes more prevalent.

Least that's the way I understand it. I haven't been in any IRC chats or talk to the dev directly so that's my current understanding as I've not seen any more info beyond it's hard to get and it's based on a trait...then they detail how getting traits work.

How well they implement that...remains to be seen.

Thanks for that info. It's the 3rd part that has me concerned and to a lesser extent the 1st one.

The 3rd part sounds an awful lot like the initial SWG jedi grind where you had to learn random skill to mastery to "unlock" the jedi...

The 1st part is concerning simply because souls are monetized and if a player wants to be a "mage" but his randomly assigned soul doesn't let him that could suck. I'd be willing to give it a shot though because there has to be SOME way to limit magic in games. I like this idea a lot better than the 3rd one.

It's not always tied to skills. It's "random". As they detailed it. You could be a wood cutter all your life and suddenly you decide to have a beer or do something similar mundane and you unlock a trait.

Slapshot1188 · May 2016

whilan said:

It's not always tied to skills. It's "random". As they detailed it. You could be a wood cutter all your life and suddenly you decide to have a beer or do something similar mundane and you unlock a trait.

Seems kind of weak to me...

I'd rather they stick to the "you have it or you don't" concept. Drinking a beer to suddenly become a mage seems.. arbitrary and silly.

MikePaladin · May 2016

This is how I see from what I've read heard from Caspian . It all will be focused on 10 years lore . And traits will unlock depending how active you are in lore. If soul System will decide that you need this trait for the quest it will unlock it .. Yes all is very confusing now about this system .....but it's such a fresh idea love it....

Personally I plan to Create some kind of Paladin Order (guild) that will focus at beginning on Sword/shield Fighting and Heavy armor Wearing perfection and Alchemy for healing .
members will try to fight evil as often as possible and as often as possible to heal other people therefore hoping one day Holy magic trait will unlock to some one of us and hope that other member could learn from him slowly but surly .

from all the info I've heard read to me it looks like this ....

The more you play as an assassin kill steal the more chance that system will unlock stealth trait for you ....

The more you Heal other player higher chance you will unlock healing trait ...

>>>>>I think such a deep game concept should be discussed on their official Forum , because here with our assumptions we will only spread miss leading info <<<<<

GrumpyHobbit · May 2016

LOL the more I read about this game the more I wonder if they have access to my hard drive and some of my game ideas that I have been toying with for the past 15 years or so. So many idea's in this game are ones that I have always wanted to add into games.

My idea was to have sort of a collective inspiration for each society. So if lots of players engage in warfare then your society would progress with advances in warfare quicker then another society. If more people in your society use a sword then an axe then it is more likely that your people will be inspired to make better axes, fight better with axes and basically move up the axe tree of knowledge. As your society advances so does the possible limits of what someone can learn to do.

Anyway, I like to sound of it and look forward to more info.

Wizardry · May 2016

Without getting into all of it,i don't like any invisibility if pvp exists.However in saying that invis has worked nice with pve but if an aoe spell happens to hit you,the invis is lost.

like all O/P abilities/spells,long timers are needed as well perhaps several limitations and such example would be not able to cast invis in water nor does it work in water or rainy weather.

MikePaladin · May 2016

Wizardry said:

Without getting into all of it,i don't like any invisibility if pvp exists.However in saying that invis has worked nice with pve but if an aoe spell happens to hit you,the invis is lost.

like all O/P abilities/spells,long timers are needed as well perhaps several limitations and such example would be not able to cast invis in water nor does it work in water or rainy weather.

To be honest Realistic Dark Nights are best stealth .
My best experience ever with night stealth was in ARK survival
I made a Club good to KO people first tier armor and found my victims ...
2 dude with metal spear and armor .... guess what I crawled to their house when I saw they turned his back to me I ran and KO him after he started screaming and he called his friend I've hidden in their base because they had only one camp fire it was quite dark in some corners I sat there while his friend run in , confused and defiantly scared he was watching at his knocked friend . and Then again I ran and hit him in head 3 time and done ...

I took 1 set of metal armor metal tools and left didn't kill them ....after we begun to play together .

Why I'm telling this story ? Because I want to prove that "Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell " like stealth is much more fun and memorable and is skill based .
I Dislike stealth from WOW and GW2 ... wow time when rogues was bursting me in 3 4 seconds ....... and gw2 stealth where some thief drop at 50 % hp and hide and again again again and again .....

Vucar · May 2016

No no and no.

There is no guaranteed path to magic, not for anyone.

Even if your character is in the 5% that get talents, there's a good chance you won't get magic.
Even if you are close to the story, there is a good chance you won't get magic.
Even if you get a talent from being close to the story, there's a good chance it won't be magic.
Even if you have the magic talent, you will not know this, so there's a good chance you won't get magic.

Suffice to say, pretend it doesn't exist, be happily surprised if somehow you even see it.

drakeordanska · May 2016

Exactly what Vucar said. 5% will get a talent but only if they participate in the story otherwise that talent will be redistributed to someone who is active in the story.

Of that 5% who have a talent a lot less will have magic, one might get a talent to enchant a weapon (made up example), or to breathe in water (again made up).

Therefore think magic doesn't exist and when you see someone use it run up to them and....

stab stab stab the witch

Vucar · May 2016

drakeordanska said:

Exactly what Vucar said. 5% will get a talent but only if they participate in the story otherwise that talent will be redistributed to someone who is active in the story.

Of that 5% who have a talent a lot less will have magic, one might get a talent to enchant a weapon (made up example), or to breathe in water (again made up).

Therefore think magic doesn't exist and when you see someone use it run up to them and....

stab stab stab the witch

Well if you have a talent but never activate it, it might be moved to another player (you won't even know you lost anything).

But if you've triggered your talent, your character has it for their lifetime regardless. It won't be taken from you after that.

There's no guarantee that talent is magic though.

Timberhick · May 2016

I still see no reason why they are implementing this whole talent thing for anyways.

It is a rather intensive undertaking, especially for a small indie publisher, that may affect 5% of the playerbase.

Vucar · May 2016

Timberhick said:

I still see no reason why they are implementing this whole talent thing for anyways.

It is a rather intensive undertaking, especially for a small indie publisher, that may affect 5% of the playerbase.

Its creative, its new and interesting and adds a dynamic element to the world. It also gives new players coming into an established game world the chance to have something almost no one has.

Directly it only affects 5% of the players, but indirectly it affects everyone.

drakeordanska · May 2016

Vucar said:

drakeordanska said:

Exactly what Vucar said. 5% will get a talent but only if they participate in the story otherwise that talent will be redistributed to someone who is active in the story.

Of that 5% who have a talent a lot less will have magic, one might get a talent to enchant a weapon (made up example), or to breathe in water (again made up).

Therefore think magic doesn't exist and when you see someone use it run up to them and....

stab stab stab the witch

Well if you have a talent but never activate it, it might be moved to another player (you won't even know you lost anything).

But if you've triggered your talent, your character has it for their lifetime regardless. It won't be taken from you after that.

There's no guarantee that talent is magic though.

Any reason you repeated exactly what I had said just in your own words?

Hellmoon1500 · May 2016

Slapshot1188 said:

whilan said:

It's not always tied to skills. It's "random". As they detailed it. You could be a wood cutter all your life and suddenly you decide to have a beer or do something similar mundane and you unlock a trait.

Seems kind of weak to me...

I'd rather they stick to the "you have it or you don't" concept. Drinking a beer to suddenly become a mage seems.. arbitrary and silly.

Yes that could be rather mundane, but I think the point he wants to make is that getting a talent is individualized and also connected to the story that's currently going on. You first have to have been one of the lucky few who might be attuned to a particular talent, and then also end up doing whatever thing, mundane or no, that awakens said talent in you (trigger). We have also been told that talents have the ability to shift, so say someone has a talent meant for the story but they aren't playing anymore (though their character is still in the world) or they aren't the least bit interested in participating in the story, then the talent can shift to someone else. We also know that a person is more likely to gain a talent while participating in a story...to that end...actions that are involved in the story might be actions that might activate a talent. Looking back at the first dev journal that talks about talents they define triggers as: "...anything from killing a specific type of beast, to coming in contact with their soul mate, to falling from a great height, to being crushed to death, to drowning, etc… The more severe and unusual the trigger, often the more powerful the Talent will be. And a player won’t know they have a Talent until it’s activated the first time."

I unfortunately am not all that familiar with SWG jedi but from what I understood, there was an unknown way of becoming a jedi but it was open to everyone, people found out how to do it, and then everyone became one...which then led to nerfs/problems/etc. Luckily, from what we have been told, talents won't be open to everyone and even if people post that "OMGSH I just activated a talent from doing such and such thing!" that such-and-such thing won't be universal.

Hopefully that helps!

Archlyte · May 2016

If it is at all like the original intended way of unlocking jedi then it will be awesome. They originally didn't want min maxers to be the unlocked people but I think it was Lucasarts who pressured them to get some jedi into the population way ahead of schedule.

If they make it so you can't just throw bland time and webby knowledge at it then I think the unlock method will be great.

Kyleran · May 2016

An odd concept, but this title has several, so probably best to roll with it and see what one day comes out.

whilan · May 2016

Hellmoon1500 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

whilan said:

It's not always tied to skills. It's "random". As they detailed it. You could be a wood cutter all your life and suddenly you decide to have a beer or do something similar mundane and you unlock a trait.

Seems kind of weak to me...

I'd rather they stick to the "you have it or you don't" concept. Drinking a beer to suddenly become a mage seems.. arbitrary and silly.

Yes that could be rather mundane, but I think the point he wants to make is that getting a talent is individualized and also connected to the story that's currently going on. You first have to have been one of the lucky few who might be attuned to a particular talent, and then also end up doing whatever thing, mundane or no, that awakens said talent in you (trigger). We have also been told that talents have the ability to shift, so say someone has a talent meant for the story but they aren't playing anymore (though their character is still in the world) or they aren't the least bit interested in participating in the story, then the talent can shift to someone else. We also know that a person is more likely to gain a talent while participating in a story...to that end...actions that are involved in the story might be actions that might activate a talent. Looking back at the first dev journal that talks about talents they define triggers as: "...anything from killing a specific type of beast, to coming in contact with their soul mate, to falling from a great height, to being crushed to death, to drowning, etc… The more severe and unusual the trigger, often the more powerful the Talent will be. And a player won’t know they have a Talent until it’s activated the first time."

I unfortunately am not all that familiar with SWG jedi but from what I understood, there was an unknown way of becoming a jedi but it was open to everyone, people found out how to do it, and then everyone became one...which then led to nerfs/problems/etc. Luckily, from what we have been told, talents won't be open to everyone and even if people post that "OMGSH I just activated a talent from doing such and such thing!" that such-and-such thing won't be universal.

Hopefully that helps!

This was pretty much what I was trying to get at with my example. It can be anything from the smallest mundane thing to a large feat but you won't know what the trigger will be until you do it. In which case it's not tied to just training all your skills and you've got all the talents. You have to do stuff in the world and keep experimenting until you get "lucky" enough to find the one that gives you a talent. Assuming that's what you are after of course.

Sevala · May 2016

Sounds like an awesome mechanic to me. Hope its completely random somewhat too so people can't just wiki everything. Have to play the game, figure things out, do work, talk to other people, no one getting a trophy for free...ya know...an actual MMO.

Narendur1 · May 2016

Timberhick said:

I still see no reason why they are implementing this whole talent thing for anyways.

It is a rather intensive undertaking, especially for a small indie publisher, that may affect 5% of the playerbase.

There's a reason talents are going to be a stretch goal for sure (confirmed in a DM21 video a while ago). It's not an important mechanic for the game, even if it's a nice addition. And they can always add it later. The fact that we know about its existence means they can implement it anytime and we won't be blasted away from the surprise.

Vucar · May 2016

drakeordanska said:

Vucar said:

drakeordanska said:

Exactly what Vucar said. 5% will get a talent but only if they participate in the story otherwise that talent will be redistributed to someone who is active in the story.

Of that 5% who have a talent a lot less will have magic, one might get a talent to enchant a weapon (made up example), or to breathe in water (again made up).

Therefore think magic doesn't exist and when you see someone use it run up to them and....

stab stab stab the witch

Well if you have a talent but never activate it, it might be moved to another player (you won't even know you lost anything).

But if you've triggered your talent, your character has it for their lifetime regardless. It won't be taken from you after that.

There's no guarantee that talent is magic though.

Any reason you repeated exactly what I had said just in your own words?

You don't need to be in the story to have a talent, its just one way of improving your chances of getting them. Your original quote said "5% will get a talent but only if they participate in the story", which is not entirely true.

Some characters will just be born with them. If they figure out they have it - great, they can keep it, and they don't necessarily need to contribute to the overarcing story. It won't be removed after being triggered for not participating because that would be a real awful bait-and-switch mechanic.

Again, this is all after the talent system is implemented, which may be after release.

drakeordanska · May 2016

Your right and that's why I shouldn't go on forums when doing other stuff i misread your forum post.

So sorry for coming across as a cock....
my bad

Archlyte · May 2016

The way they make it sound in the video, it seems like they want talents to connect you to a possible destiny. I don't know if that amounts to a special quest to get you going, or something bigger. I would hope they are going for a more player driven thing like wanting to kill The Red Mage of SmallOak (Player) because he has terrorized the local forest (killed some of your guildies who were trying to steal the Mages gold).

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Magic = SWG jedi grind?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV