As much as people whine and complain about RNG, i'm pretty sure if you were to use ANY other system other than RNG, the result would be 10x more whining and complaining. I think players have to just resign themselves to the fact that they is no perfect or close to perfect system that would make "EVERYONE" happy/satisfied. If every system has flaws/faults, use the best of the worst theory.
RNG is the basis on which all of these games were generated. It is the dice roll. The thing that GM's have been arguing about with players since the first RPG. Forever there have been players who have accepted the dice roll for what it is and players who have done everything in their power to manipulate and overcome that dice roll. And forever that player who goes into all the books and studies all the rules ad-nauseum in order to come up with a Oriental Adventures Ninja that can kill a dragon at level 1 with throwing stars has been the guy that people have wished that they didn't invite to come play.
So first things first. Fuck that guy, nobody likes him. He is what we call where I come from, WEAK. He takes the fun out of a friendly game of skill and turns it into a bunch of hard feelings and emotional discomfort for everyone unlucky enough to be involved in anything that he or she is involved in.
We should not be building games for that guy or girl.
Thus, circumvent-able RNG is EXACTLY the game that we should not be playing or putting our money behind. It is the game for the aforementioned person above and it does nothing but promote said person or persons, as well as those persons who are willing to make money off of that type of personality i.e. hackers, botters, gold sellers, etc... into doing exactly the thing that makes everybody hate them in the first place.
Proper application of RNG then should
A. Not be able to be circumvented.
You should not be able to get around it by repetition. You should not be able to get around it by purchase. The system must be the same system for all and whatever that system is should be stated up front. In other words, if your game is pay to win then you shouldn't be out there lying and saying that it's not as though YOU the DEVELOPER don't realize that you have entered devices into your own product that allow people to circumvent the rules of the world that you created.
B. Should not be convoluted.
In other words, the old rules had mobs using what is called a "loot table". The loot table meant that if you killed that mob it was guaranteed to drop SOMETHING, and the RNG was applied to a list of possible items that it would drop.
Present day cash grab games have put that drop much farther out of reach of the player by applying RNG to the fact that the creature will drop something, applying RNG to what it will drop, making that drop only PART of something that needs other parts to complete, AND making the creation of THAT item subject to RNG as well.
The reason for doing this is quite simple. It is done in order to produce a time sink that the player will then choose to circumvent via a cash purchase. Proof of this is when you see items of equal or relatively close value for sale in the auction house or on the cash shop. One would have only to ask one's self, "Who would go through all of that work just to turn around and sell that item?" and be honest with one's self when the answer came to understand that of course these items aren't being worked for in the same fashion as the game would expect you to work for it but instead are being mass produced through either hacking, botting, or in some cases development. Because, after all, if it promotes the game making money, why not right?
C. Should be modifiable (via stats, in game items, and rewards) (and these are the details in which the Devil finds its home).
But those stats, in game items, and rewards must NOT be made sellable, i.e. tradeable. Nor should they be hackable, exploitable, or circumvent-able.
In order for stats to have worth they must be, as tradition would have it,
A. A sacrifice. Meaning that in order to be good at one thing one must be willing to not be so good at another. B. Rewarding. Meaning that being good at something should actually make doing something in that area EASIER for you. C. Somewhat fallible. Meaning not an "all the time" thing but, depending on the level of the item being produced or the action being attempted, a "most of the time" thing. D. Somewhat liquid. Meaning of value to more people than just yourself.
Proper RNG then should produce a system by which a player can achieve better results through hard work and perseverance but never be able to fully rely on that mastery in every situation. The failure produced by the RNG is meant to promote a feeling of adventure though, and so certain "punishing" RNG systems in which even a player who has worked at swinging that sword or building that piece of armor for over a year still stands a better chance at failure than at success, should be looked upon as just what they are, convoluted systems meant to force the player to spend money to (to coin a phrase from Hatsman) "stop the bleeding".
Finally, a proper RNG system should be....
D. Applied with care.
This means that you shouldn't just go throwing the shit all over the place and attaching it to every stupid thing beyond the point of it making sense. If I spend a week lifting weights it should not make me more pious. If I make clothes for a living I should not have to go into work every day wondering if I'm going to get it right. There should be absolutely NO REASON why it should be a gamble to go to the local gas station and buy a HOT DOG!! The hot dog is right there. You are the merchant, I am the customer, I want a HOT DOG, not a CHANCE at getting a hot dog!
That was dumb the very first time I ever saw it. That and the $150 ferret (some of you know exactly what I am talking about).
RNG though is not the enemy here. The enemy is that one guy that we should have never invited to the party and that one guy who keeps inviting him because he knows that he can sell that guy exploits by which to ruin everyone else's fun.
Oh and maybe the parents of both of those guys because who raises a kid that doesn't understand, by the time they have the facilities to even sit down at one of these games, that cheating does not make you cool and only hurts everyone involved?
This dead horse again? This topic has been debated since the first implementation of RNG.
There shouldnt be an RNG at all. The only reason it was created was to create a vast time sink for players and its one of the worst aspects of MMOs. It makes no real world sense at all. When a person is making something, they dont randomly create things on it they werent trying for.
Seriously. The idea that a BP has an equal chance of having light, dark, energy, life protection on it would be like saying that someone making a jacket has a chance to accidentally make a jacket with stripes, sparklers, logos or rainbow colors...
Crafting should be dictated by crafting level. If you have the ability to make a damn BP, the chance of fail should be according to your level. Get to the point where you are far above the level you learned how to make it, chances of failure should be minimal.
You only need to have all the items have durability that degrades over time ensuring that all items will need to be replaced in order to keep the value of crafting alive, and the economy flowing.
And no, materials should never have to be gathered from raids...ever...my god. Crafting is a casual experience, not an elitist/hardcore experience. When you place materials in bosses/raid mobs, you turn the economy upside down and drive the costs of everything through the roof.
The idea that gear should be some kind of reward or a focus also needs to die. The focus of the game should be fun doing what you are doing and not shines...
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
The only problem with rng are players mentality thinking they deserve a standard valued reward for everything they do. What happens when you take out rng is that you also remove a very important excitement factor, that at every corner you may strike gold. There is nothing as devastating to a mmorpg than replacing rng drops with currency/badge/gems/whatever that the player can use at a vendor. Flat drop systems like that makes the grind painfully obvious, while rng makes grind interesting (unless offcourse you start to analyse it with a calculator, in which case I would ask "why are you playing a mmorpg?").
Problem is that progression in mmorpg's ends up being about loot and while RNG can be an issue the real issue is that endgame in themeparks is about hitting loot pinatas endlessly.
The solution would be to make progression more about the character and what they create instead of focusing on loot drops.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
"Oh my gosh. A world without RNG would mean I'd actually have to have some aptitude, do things well, and be able to solve problems. I wouldn't be able to swipe my credit card or spend 8-10hrs a day to be able to tell people to 'get gud'. Praise the almighty lord Gamblor and his first son RNGesus."
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
If you attach getting items to skill and aptitude you also reduce the number of players that are willing to play the game. There are probably more less skilled players than skilled players and by using a system guaranteeing their exclusion you will kill your game faster.
It's trivially easy to think of an alternative, but it's hard to implement one properly.
In my mind, the only way to do it is finite resources and items coupled with true dynamic AI, in a sophisticated simulation of a world. As in, have items exchange hands between NPCs and mobs. Have NPCs, players and mobs build castles, strongholds, dungeons, etc. - dynamically.
Finite resources means resources have intrinsic and tangible value. Once you start "generating" resource nodes and items - you take away the concept of limited resources, and that means taking away their value.
I absolutely hate the concept of items being generated. Right there, it makes them feel less tangible and worthwhile. So, I want all items based on a finite resource system - and I want epic items to be EPIC, meaning they should be handcrafted and evolve into magical items through acts and lore. So, when you finally find that legendary sword of dragon fire - it's the only one in the game. You'll have to fight hard to get it - and once you have it, it can be stolen or taken as a trophy.
That's my approach, anyway.
I thought about making dungeons dynamic. The main problem RNG solves is it makes people do things 100 times without "technically" making them do it 100 times, because there is that chance they could do it in 1 time. If everything was dynamic, there would be no need for RNG because there would be no need to have people run the same thing over and over. Every dungeon would be a new experience and carry different loot.
However, like you said, it's very hard to make things dynamic in an MMO.
The concept of a dynamic world with dynamic adaptive NPCs and Mobs and finite resources is even more interesting and would be even more difficult to implement.
I do REALLY like the idea of making epic items truly epic. There really should be only one "Excalibur" in the world and it would be exciting to wield it and also exciting to try to get it from the guy that has it. It would also be cool if maybe the guy that had it died fighting a difficult dragon- the dragon now carries the item but the only people that know that are the ones that were in the group with the guy that had it.
It's trivially easy to think of an alternative, but it's hard to implement one properly.
In my mind, the only way to do it is finite resources and items coupled with true dynamic AI, in a sophisticated simulation of a world. As in, have items exchange hands between NPCs and mobs. Have NPCs, players and mobs build castles, strongholds, dungeons, etc. - dynamically.
Finite resources means resources have intrinsic and tangible value. Once you start "generating" resource nodes and items - you take away the concept of limited resources, and that means taking away their value.
I absolutely hate the concept of items being generated. Right there, it makes them feel less tangible and worthwhile. So, I want all items based on a finite resource system - and I want epic items to be EPIC, meaning they should be handcrafted and evolve into magical items through acts and lore. So, when you finally find that legendary sword of dragon fire - it's the only one in the game. You'll have to fight hard to get it - and once you have it, it can be stolen or taken as a trophy.
That's my approach, anyway.
I thought about making dungeons dynamic. The main problem RNG solves is it makes people do things 100 times without "technically" making them do it 100 times, because there is that chance they could do it in 1 time. If everything was dynamic, there would be no need for RNG because there would be no need to have people run the same thing over and over. Every dungeon would be a new experience and carry different loot.
However, like you said, it's very hard to make things dynamic in an MMO.
The concept of a dynamic world with dynamic adaptive NPCs and Mobs and finite resources is even more interesting and would be even more difficult to implement.
I do REALLY like the idea of making epic items truly epic. There really should be only one "Excalibur" in the world and it would be exciting to wield it and also exciting to try to get it from the guy that has it. It would also be cool if maybe the guy that had it died fighting a difficult dragon- the dragon now carries the item but the only people that know that are the ones that were in the group with the guy that had it.
Yes, I've always dreamed of an MMO working like that.
Of course, it's a ton of work - and it's much more about simulating a worthwhile world than providing endless rides in a themepark.
But I'm convinced it can be done with the right team and mindset - given enough money.
Pretty much this... And honestly, RNG dates back to the late 60s/early 70s when Mr Gygax and his friends started to roll dice for their adventures.
Personally I think there are some good systems available to let RNG do a better job than most games do. I am very found of how (Advanced) Dungeons & Dragons has always used RNG where your skill level indeed DOES matter and a RNG is used on top of that to see if and how much of a success the use of the skill has been. I wish something similar would be used in many games, and not when you have maxed out your skill, you still have a RNG running from 0 to that max...
I just think it's a shame that since the 60s, we have developed incredibly powerful computers, but we are using them to essentially simulate throwing dice on a table like we did in the 60s.
You can get [item X] from a certain monster, you know that monster hangs out in a certain place, but if you can get to it, you will get the item.
Unfortunately implementing this succesfully is probably going to be quite complex, since difficulty in MMO's often just means higher level and more health/damage.
For raid drops where you often have a large variety of items you need from one or few enemies, the token system as you suggested yourself seems like a good alternative.
I also quite like the idea of just having resources drop so you can go craft the items yourself.
The only way is to remove random chance make everything based on 1 to 1 numbers and/or action based. No crits, no procs, loot is 100% same for each encounter and etc.
If you attach getting items to skill and aptitude you also reduce the number of players that are willing to play the game. There are probably more less skilled players than skilled players and by using a system guaranteeing their exclusion you will kill your game faster.
Always remember that 50% of MMORPG players are below average !
Yet 100% of them believe they are actually above average...
There tends to be three main areas where RNG comes into play and causes issues
1) Combat Lets say I have 90 accuracy, the enemy has 10 dodge, this means I have 80% chance to hit. The servers RNG is used to generate a number between 1 and 100 and if it is 80 or below, I hit.
This sort of RNG is in place to simulate real life. Like others have said, nobody is ever perfect 100% of the time, there is always a chance to fail, no matter how small. RNG in combat simulates these chances. At the moment, it is impossible to replace this type of RNG with something that is 100% based on player skill, because no input system exists that can capture the complexities of life.
For example, in real life there is a chance I might drop my sword due to sweaty hands, but no input system exists that can combine my swinging of my sword arm, my grip and my sweaty palms, so we must rely on RNG to simulate this.
If you did decide to remove RNG anyway then what you end up with is a very basic combat system based on a pretty static meta-game. Based on your stats, you'd know before a fight whether you would win or lose. You'd never need to react to changing situations (like crits, dodges etc) because they would never happen. So, until we get full VR, RNG is here to stay and I'm happy for it.
2) Loot This tends to be the most contentious area for RNG and is one I agree could do with changing. Basing loot drops off of RNG is a completely arbitrary decision, one not based on real life or anything like that. It is there to make things more exciting (unexpected shinies!) and to keep you coming back for more (getting lucky on drops). Implementation tends to be the key. Make the percentage too low and most will grumble, too high and the RNG becomes pointless.
My preference is loot tokens / crafting materials. Doesn't even have be that everyone gains a token. For example, LotRO for years dropped tokens. Kill a boss, a "Shoulders Gem" would drop, the person who wins it would trade that gem for their class-specific shoulders. It makes loot acquisition predictable whilst still requiring you to grind for a decent length of time. Crafting items is much the same, just instead of trading a gem for an item, you trade a crafting mat and (hopefully) receive an item from the crafter.
For other types of loot, it just comes down to where your personal line in the sand is. For me personally, I think if you are going to have a boss drop loot (example epic ring), then that boss should 100% drop epic loot, but for the loot itself to vary (e.g. 100% chance to drop epic ring, but 50% of the time it will be strength based, 50% of the time it will be magic based). Keep the ratios balanced so even if there were 5 possible items, you still have 20% chance to get it so average player won't have to grind too many times. There will still be some lucky and some unlucky players, but on the whole not too far off.
3) Crafting This really comes down to the game. Again, I'm happy for there to be some RNG to try to simulate real life, but it needs to be the other way round. For example, in original LotRO you had maybe 25% chance to crit-craft the best jewellery. This should be the other way round. If you *know* how to craft something, there should be a high chance to craft it with a small chance to fail. I also think crafting systems need to put more thought and effort into how players can grow and customise their crafting abilities.
For example, something like the AMP system from Wildstar, but adapted for crafting. So, lets say I was a "master" weaponsmith (i.e. maxed) but hadn't spent any AMPs. I'd have a 75% chance to create the best recipes, so lets say one of those was a sword with 100 damage.
Then, I can specialise with AMPs. Lets say I spent some AMPs down the proficiency side, so this might increase my chances from 75% to 85%. Then I'll spend some more in base stats, so instead of creating 100damage sword, I create 105damage sword. However, my friend is also a master weaponsmith but has decided to go balls-deep on creating epic items. He spends his AMPs differently, instead reducing his chance to create the item from 75% down to 50%, but now he can create 115 damage sword with +1 range.
This system still uses RNG, but gives the player more control over it and would also allow crafters to specialise more.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
There tends to be three main areas where RNG comes into play and causes issues
1) Combat Lets say I have 90 accuracy, the enemy has 10 dodge, this means I have 80% chance to hit. The servers RNG is used to generate a number between 1 and 100 and if it is 80 or below, I hit.
This sort of RNG is in place to simulate real life. Like others have said, nobody is ever perfect 100% of the time, there is always a chance to fail, no matter how small. RNG in combat simulates these chances. At the moment, it is impossible to replace this type of RNG with something that is 100% based on player skill, because no input system exists that can capture the complexities of life.
For example, in real life there is a chance I might drop my sword due to sweaty hands, but no input system exists that can combine my swinging of my sword arm, my grip and my sweaty palms, so we must rely on RNG to simulate this.
If you did decide to remove RNG anyway then what you end up with is a very basic combat system based on a pretty static meta-game. Based on your stats, you'd know before a fight whether you would win or lose. You'd never need to react to changing situations (like crits, dodges etc) because they would never happen. So, until we get full VR, RNG is here to stay and I'm happy for it.
In a tab-target game you can't really miss but if you can replace the statistics with player actions there is less need of RNG As an example, if you use your shield to block an attack it should be your action that determines your success while its the shield statistic that tells how much damage was avoided.
With more games utilizing active dodge, parry and block there is less need to use RNG to determine hits.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Randominity is going to be a feature of games where stuff isn't totally scripted and predictable. Of course, there's no reason to be a slave to it either. (RNG is just a command to generate random numbers in some programming languages.) So when you talk about random stuff, it's all over the game, you should probably specify what random event or table you've got a problem with. It seems like most of the people on this one are talking about loot tables.
I agree that the loot tables are pretty messed up in a lot of games, especially when it's a quest drop item. You have no idea how frustrated and pissed off I've gotten at blizzard over their zehvras that apparently have no hooves or heads, but only after I kill them. And then the other drops. I've gone for months with groups grinding for certain drops that are stupidly low, and never gotten one, though they've dropped many times. (It's always someone else that wins the roll, even if it's a mage doing a need on platemail armor! Have they ever fixed that bug in WoW?) This is not the way to encourage people. It's part of the reason why I haven't played WoW for about 3 years now. Having to luck out on a super unlikely roll just for the item to appear, and then have to win a second roll in a roll off with the other players in the group.
Yeah, luck can really be against you. It can be against you 10,000 times in a row, even if you were supposed to be at 95%. Not likely, but it happens. So when that does happen, it totally sucks, and it's not right. Not because statistically it averages out, or because life isn't fair, but rather because this is supposed to be a game, and having to work 10 times as hard as other to still come up empty isn't fun.
That's something it seems a lot of people forget. These are games, and games are supposed to be fun. Frustration and failure time after time is NOT fun.
"2) Loot This tends to be the most contentious area for RNG and is one I agree could do with changing."
Yeah I'm pretty much just asking about loot/enchancements.
I really dislike token based systems as the primary gear mechanic. Its fine for an alternate method, or maybe good for an enchantment/gem type system or alternate slots. I still really prefer EQ's system. And its made even stronger because of AAs in EQ so gear isnt the only progression. You gain exp while you try to get your gear and grow stronger.
I could see a well implemented quest/task system for gear working reasonably well. Again, EQ had some good examples of this, although the risk/reward wasnt always there. In one of the later expansions there was a quest for an augment that required you to complete about 50 or so various tasks that took you all throughout a zone gaining different components to the final augment. EQ also often did long questlines where items gained in power as you went through the steps.
Probability distributions aren't intrinsically bad. Bad probability distributions are bad. The whole i.i.d. approach works fine for some things in games, but it's way overdone for loot.
1) There shouldnt be an RNG at all. The only reason it was created was to create a vast time sink for players and its one of the worst aspects of MMOs. It makes no real world sense at all. When a person is making something, they dont randomly create things on it they werent trying for.
Seriously. The idea that a BP has an equal chance of having light, dark, energy, life protection on it would be like saying that someone making a jacket has a chance to accidentally make a jacket with stripes, sparklers, logos or rainbow colors...
2) Crafting should be dictated by crafting level. If you have the ability to make a damn BP, the chance of fail should be according to your level. Get to the point where you are far above the level you learned how to make it, chances of failure should be minimal.
You only need to have all the items have durability that degrades over time ensuring that all items will need to be replaced in order to keep the value of crafting alive, and the economy flowing.
3) And no, materials should never have to be gathered from raids...ever...my god. Crafting is a casual experience, not an elitist/hardcore experience. When you place materials in bosses/raid mobs, you turn the economy upside down and drive the costs of everything through the roof.
The idea that gear should be some kind of reward or a focus also needs to die. The focus of the game should be fun doing what you are doing and not shines...
I agree and disagree with some of your points. 1) Disagree. Nobody ever succeeded 100% of the time, no matter their skill. Eventually, they will fail. Some of it was used a s a time-sink (Boss Drops), yes, but that is NOT the only reason, by far. I always wondered about hearing about a certain named boss having a specific item, only to find it is nowhere to be found after defeating it.
2) Disagree, as everyone knows even mastercrafters fail sometimes. The chance should be less, of course, but there will always be a chance that something could go wrong: Tools break; Minds wander; Someone sneezes; Materials break. Agree with the durability aspect, though.
3) Agreed 100%. Never place crafting mats within raids. That is mixing 2 very different playstyles where some players will enjoy doing both, but most will despise one or the other. Doing this means crafters HAVE to raid and Raiders get UNWANTED drops for their efforts.
Also agree with the "gear as a reward" mentality. The only exception is weapons/armor used by the opponent. If an orc uses a shortsword, I best get that sword after defeating it.
There tends to be three main areas where RNG comes into play and causes issues
1) Combat Lets say I have 90 accuracy, the enemy has 10 dodge, this means I have 80% chance to hit. The servers RNG is used to generate a number between 1 and 100 and if it is 80 or below, I hit.
This sort of RNG is in place to simulate real life. Like others have said, nobody is ever perfect 100% of the time, there is always a chance to fail, no matter how small. RNG in combat simulates these chances. At the moment, it is impossible to replace this type of RNG with something that is 100% based on player skill, because no input system exists that can capture the complexities of life.
For example, in real life there is a chance I might drop my sword due to sweaty hands, but no input system exists that can combine my swinging of my sword arm, my grip and my sweaty palms, so we must rely on RNG to simulate this.
If you did decide to remove RNG anyway then what you end up with is a very basic combat system based on a pretty static meta-game. Based on your stats, you'd know before a fight whether you would win or lose. You'd never need to react to changing situations (like crits, dodges etc) because they would never happen. So, until we get full VR, RNG is here to stay and I'm happy for it.
In a tab-target game you can't really miss but if you can replace the statistics with player actions there is less need of RNG As an example, if you use your shield to block an attack it should be your action that determines your success while its the shield statistic that tells how much damage was avoided.
With more games utilizing active dodge, parry and block there is less need to use RNG to determine hits.
I'm in the opposite corner here. I want MY skills as far away from my game character as possible. My character is the one who has training in shields and swords, not me. When they become experts in their crafts through skill leveling and *I* kill them with my inept reflexes, there is no reason for me to continue playing.
Comments
<QQ moar plz. kkthxbai.>
So first things first. Fuck that guy, nobody likes him. He is what we call where I come from, WEAK. He takes the fun out of a friendly game of skill and turns it into a bunch of hard feelings and emotional discomfort for everyone unlucky enough to be involved in anything that he or she is involved in.
We should not be building games for that guy or girl.
Thus, circumvent-able RNG is EXACTLY the game that we should not be playing or putting our money behind. It is the game for the aforementioned person above and it does nothing but promote said person or persons, as well as those persons who are willing to make money off of that type of personality i.e. hackers, botters, gold sellers, etc... into doing exactly the thing that makes everybody hate them in the first place.
Proper application of RNG then should
A. Not be able to be circumvented.
You should not be able to get around it by repetition. You should not be able to get around it by purchase. The system must be the same system for all and whatever that system is should be stated up front. In other words, if your game is pay to win then you shouldn't be out there lying and saying that it's not as though YOU the DEVELOPER don't realize that you have entered devices into your own product that allow people to circumvent the rules of the world that you created.
B. Should not be convoluted.
In other words, the old rules had mobs using what is called a "loot table". The loot table meant that if you killed that mob it was guaranteed to drop SOMETHING, and the RNG was applied to a list of possible items that it would drop.
Present day cash grab games have put that drop much farther out of reach of the player by applying RNG to the fact that the creature will drop something, applying RNG to what it will drop, making that drop only PART of something that needs other parts to complete, AND making the creation of THAT item subject to RNG as well.
The reason for doing this is quite simple. It is done in order to produce a time sink that the player will then choose to circumvent via a cash purchase. Proof of this is when you see items of equal or relatively close value for sale in the auction house or on the cash shop. One would have only to ask one's self, "Who would go through all of that work just to turn around and sell that item?" and be honest with one's self when the answer came to understand that of course these items aren't being worked for in the same fashion as the game would expect you to work for it but instead are being mass produced through either hacking, botting, or in some cases development. Because, after all, if it promotes the game making money, why not right?
C. Should be modifiable (via stats, in game items, and rewards) (and these are the details in which the Devil finds its home).
But those stats, in game items, and rewards must NOT be made sellable, i.e. tradeable. Nor should they be hackable, exploitable, or circumvent-able.
In order for stats to have worth they must be, as tradition would have it,
A. A sacrifice. Meaning that in order to be good at one thing one must be willing to not be so good at another.
B. Rewarding. Meaning that being good at something should actually make doing something in that area EASIER for you.
C. Somewhat fallible. Meaning not an "all the time" thing but, depending on the level of the item being produced or the action being attempted, a "most of the time" thing.
D. Somewhat liquid. Meaning of value to more people than just yourself.
Proper RNG then should produce a system by which a player can achieve better results through hard work and perseverance but never be able to fully rely on that mastery in every situation. The failure produced by the RNG is meant to promote a feeling of adventure though, and so certain "punishing" RNG systems in which even a player who has worked at swinging that sword or building that piece of armor for over a year still stands a better chance at failure than at success, should be looked upon as just what they are, convoluted systems meant to force the player to spend money to (to coin a phrase from Hatsman) "stop the bleeding".
Finally, a proper RNG system should be....
D. Applied with care.
This means that you shouldn't just go throwing the shit all over the place and attaching it to every stupid thing beyond the point of it making sense. If I spend a week lifting weights it should not make me more pious. If I make clothes for a living I should not have to go into work every day wondering if I'm going to get it right. There should be absolutely NO REASON why it should be a gamble to go to the local gas station and buy a HOT DOG!! The hot dog is right there. You are the merchant, I am the customer, I want a HOT DOG, not a CHANCE at getting a hot dog!
That was dumb the very first time I ever saw it. That and the $150 ferret (some of you know exactly what I am talking about).
RNG though is not the enemy here. The enemy is that one guy that we should have never invited to the party and that one guy who keeps inviting him because he knows that he can sell that guy exploits by which to ruin everyone else's fun.
Oh and maybe the parents of both of those guys because who raises a kid that doesn't understand, by the time they have the facilities to even sit down at one of these games, that cheating does not make you cool and only hurts everyone involved?
There shouldnt be an RNG at all. The only reason it was created was to create a vast time sink for players and its one of the worst aspects of MMOs. It makes no real world sense at all. When a person is making something, they dont randomly create things on it they werent trying for.
Seriously. The idea that a BP has an equal chance of having light, dark, energy, life protection on it would be like saying that someone making a jacket has a chance to accidentally make a jacket with stripes, sparklers, logos or rainbow colors...
Crafting should be dictated by crafting level. If you have the ability to make a damn BP, the chance of fail should be according to your level. Get to the point where you are far above the level you learned how to make it, chances of failure should be minimal.
You only need to have all the items have durability that degrades over time ensuring that all items will need to be replaced in order to keep the value of crafting alive, and the economy flowing.
And no, materials should never have to be gathered from raids...ever...my god. Crafting is a casual experience, not an elitist/hardcore experience. When you place materials in bosses/raid mobs, you turn the economy upside down and drive the costs of everything through the roof.
The idea that gear should be some kind of reward or a focus also needs to die. The focus of the game should be fun doing what you are doing and not shines...
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
The solution would be to make progression more about the character and what they create instead of focusing on loot drops.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However, like you said, it's very hard to make things dynamic in an MMO.
The concept of a dynamic world with dynamic adaptive NPCs and Mobs and finite resources is even more interesting and would be even more difficult to implement.
I do REALLY like the idea of making epic items truly epic. There really should be only one "Excalibur" in the world and it would be exciting to wield it and also exciting to try to get it from the guy that has it. It would also be cool if maybe the guy that had it died fighting a difficult dragon- the dragon now carries the item but the only people that know that are the ones that were in the group with the guy that had it.
Of course, it's a ton of work - and it's much more about simulating a worthwhile world than providing endless rides in a themepark.
But I'm convinced it can be done with the right team and mindset - given enough money.
You can get [item X] from a certain monster, you know that monster hangs out in a certain place, but if you can get to it, you will get the item.
Unfortunately implementing this succesfully is probably going to be quite complex, since difficulty in MMO's often just means higher level and more health/damage.
For raid drops where you often have a large variety of items you need from one or few enemies, the token system as you suggested yourself seems like a good alternative.
I also quite like the idea of just having resources drop so you can go craft the items yourself.
RNG annoyances fixed.
Yet 100% of them believe they are actually above average...
1) Combat
Lets say I have 90 accuracy, the enemy has 10 dodge, this means I have 80% chance to hit. The servers RNG is used to generate a number between 1 and 100 and if it is 80 or below, I hit.
This sort of RNG is in place to simulate real life. Like others have said, nobody is ever perfect 100% of the time, there is always a chance to fail, no matter how small. RNG in combat simulates these chances. At the moment, it is impossible to replace this type of RNG with something that is 100% based on player skill, because no input system exists that can capture the complexities of life.
For example, in real life there is a chance I might drop my sword due to sweaty hands, but no input system exists that can combine my swinging of my sword arm, my grip and my sweaty palms, so we must rely on RNG to simulate this.
If you did decide to remove RNG anyway then what you end up with is a very basic combat system based on a pretty static meta-game. Based on your stats, you'd know before a fight whether you would win or lose. You'd never need to react to changing situations (like crits, dodges etc) because they would never happen. So, until we get full VR, RNG is here to stay and I'm happy for it.
2) Loot
This tends to be the most contentious area for RNG and is one I agree could do with changing. Basing loot drops off of RNG is a completely arbitrary decision, one not based on real life or anything like that. It is there to make things more exciting (unexpected shinies!) and to keep you coming back for more (getting lucky on drops). Implementation tends to be the key. Make the percentage too low and most will grumble, too high and the RNG becomes pointless.
My preference is loot tokens / crafting materials. Doesn't even have be that everyone gains a token. For example, LotRO for years dropped tokens. Kill a boss, a "Shoulders Gem" would drop, the person who wins it would trade that gem for their class-specific shoulders. It makes loot acquisition predictable whilst still requiring you to grind for a decent length of time. Crafting items is much the same, just instead of trading a gem for an item, you trade a crafting mat and (hopefully) receive an item from the crafter.
For other types of loot, it just comes down to where your personal line in the sand is. For me personally, I think if you are going to have a boss drop loot (example epic ring), then that boss should 100% drop epic loot, but for the loot itself to vary (e.g. 100% chance to drop epic ring, but 50% of the time it will be strength based, 50% of the time it will be magic based). Keep the ratios balanced so even if there were 5 possible items, you still have 20% chance to get it so average player won't have to grind too many times. There will still be some lucky and some unlucky players, but on the whole not too far off.
3) Crafting
This really comes down to the game. Again, I'm happy for there to be some RNG to try to simulate real life, but it needs to be the other way round. For example, in original LotRO you had maybe 25% chance to crit-craft the best jewellery. This should be the other way round. If you *know* how to craft something, there should be a high chance to craft it with a small chance to fail. I also think crafting systems need to put more thought and effort into how players can grow and customise their crafting abilities.
For example, something like the AMP system from Wildstar, but adapted for crafting. So, lets say I was a "master" weaponsmith (i.e. maxed) but hadn't spent any AMPs. I'd have a 75% chance to create the best recipes, so lets say one of those was a sword with 100 damage.
Then, I can specialise with AMPs. Lets say I spent some AMPs down the proficiency side, so this might increase my chances from 75% to 85%. Then I'll spend some more in base stats, so instead of creating 100damage sword, I create 105damage sword. However, my friend is also a master weaponsmith but has decided to go balls-deep on creating epic items. He spends his AMPs differently, instead reducing his chance to create the item from 75% down to 50%, but now he can create 115 damage sword with +1 range.
This system still uses RNG, but gives the player more control over it and would also allow crafters to specialise more.
With more games utilizing active dodge, parry and block there is less need to use RNG to determine hits.
This tends to be the most contentious area for RNG and is one I agree could do with changing."
Yeah I'm pretty much just asking about loot/enchancements.
Any effort to take the rng out of combat would just exclude people without good hand/eye-coordination/skill.
I'd love to see a combat system like Chivalry in an MMO but first of all I'm not sure it can be done, and secondly it would turn a lot of people away.
So when you talk about random stuff, it's all over the game, you should probably specify what random event or table you've got a problem with. It seems like most of the people on this one are talking about loot tables.
I agree that the loot tables are pretty messed up in a lot of games, especially when it's a quest drop item. You have no idea how frustrated and pissed off I've gotten at blizzard over their zehvras that apparently have no hooves or heads, but only after I kill them. And then the other drops. I've gone for months with groups grinding for certain drops that are stupidly low, and never gotten one, though they've dropped many times. (It's always someone else that wins the roll, even if it's a mage doing a need on platemail armor! Have they ever fixed that bug in WoW?) This is not the way to encourage people. It's part of the reason why I haven't played WoW for about 3 years now. Having to luck out on a super unlikely roll just for the item to appear, and then have to win a second roll in a roll off with the other players in the group.
Yeah, luck can really be against you. It can be against you 10,000 times in a row, even if you were supposed to be at 95%. Not likely, but it happens. So when that does happen, it totally sucks, and it's not right. Not because statistically it averages out, or because life isn't fair, but rather because this is supposed to be a game, and having to work 10 times as hard as other to still come up empty isn't fun.
That's something it seems a lot of people forget.
These are games, and games are supposed to be fun.
Frustration and failure time after time is NOT fun.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
I could see a well implemented quest/task system for gear working reasonably well. Again, EQ had some good examples of this, although the risk/reward wasnt always there. In one of the later expansions there was a quest for an augment that required you to complete about 50 or so various tasks that took you all throughout a zone gaining different components to the final augment. EQ also often did long questlines where items gained in power as you went through the steps.
1) Disagree. Nobody ever succeeded 100% of the time, no matter their skill. Eventually, they will fail. Some of it was used a s a time-sink (Boss Drops), yes, but that is NOT the only reason, by far. I always wondered about hearing about a certain named boss having a specific item, only to find it is nowhere to be found after defeating it.
2) Disagree, as everyone knows even mastercrafters fail sometimes. The chance should be less, of course, but there will always be a chance that something could go wrong: Tools break; Minds wander; Someone sneezes; Materials break. Agree with the durability aspect, though.
3) Agreed 100%. Never place crafting mats within raids. That is mixing 2 very different playstyles where some players will enjoy doing both, but most will despise one or the other. Doing this means crafters HAVE to raid and Raiders get UNWANTED drops for their efforts.
Also agree with the "gear as a reward" mentality. The only exception is weapons/armor used by the opponent. If an orc uses a shortsword, I best get that sword after defeating it.
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