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The trouble with zones
Archaos
Member Posts: 173
HJ-Illuminat(is) mentioned wanting a thread to discuss zones so here it is. Personally, even when the zone loads in a couple seconds, It still noticeably affects my enjoyment of the game. I begin to feel that the two seperated areas are in no way connected and my immersion in the game is reduced. Then I get subconsiously annoyed at the interruption and find myself avoiding zone borders and walking farther to something IN a zone than something right outside one.
What does everyone else think?
Comments
I agree, it feels like you're being shuffled from place to place, and the world seems closed..
I guess it feels like going through a building, and having to open and close every single door on the way, instead of them being open for you.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
WoW was seamless but also had dramatically different adjacent zones. You can go from snow to warm grassland in like 30 feet but they were clever about it and it never detracted from the immersion, at least for me. I suppose I don't understand what the artistic freedom you're talking about would allow you to do. I mean if it's really THAT different area to area, wouldn't that sort of ruin the immersion? Give me an example of what you mean.
When are you going to get an "official HJ GM" title under your name?
I understand not liking zones, especially when you have a static "loading" screen pop up but there are technical reasons for doing it.
Mainly having the world broken up into zones allows for more detail in those zones without having a huge impact on the frame rate - or requiring some $6000.00 monster machine to get a reasonable frame rate. This is especially true in the common areas of the world where the world builders not only have to take into account the amount of detail visible in the world itself but also have to account for the detail of the character models and the potential number of characters that can gather in a given area.
For those that say WoW didn't have zones, that's not completely true. There were loading screens for the boats/zepplins which were major zone shifts but there were also more seamless zones. These seamless zones allowed them to control visibilty somewhat by making most of the stuff in the other zone invisible until you crossed a certain line. The stuff near the zone might be rendered - though I can think of some instances where I was standing on one side of a stream and didn't see the monsters on the other shore until I had swam half way across and changed zones - but the stuff further in was turned off even though you should have been able to see it since there was nothing blocking your line of sight.
I realize that compared to say EQ2 WoW felt "zoneless" but you have to realize that WoW is a much less detailed world graphically speaking. It's not just the "cartoony" textures it's also the fact that all of their objects have low polygon counts. Take an up close look at a wagon wheel sometime, it's actually a solid object with a texture laid over it to simulate the gaps where spokes would be, heck it's not even a smooth circle. This isn't a knock on Blizzards art team, they were trying to create a 3D version of the WarCraft world and I think they did an amazing job of it. Their use of low detail models allowed them to create a more vibrant world and have that world accessable by lower end computers. They gave the players a consistent look and feel to the world and enough to do to keep them focused on playing the game and not sitting around staring at the models and textures.
I'll go into my whole "feature X of your game breaks my immersion" rant at a later time though
I guess it depends how you look at zones. For me when you zone between one region to a next is sorta like in a book. You read how they decide to go on a adventure. Then the next chapter theyre are describing they reached there goal, skipping the less meaty parts of the travel. Not a bad mechanism. Just not nescarry in all cases. For me its much more important that the zones have a effect on each other if there. You finish task in area one, npc in area 2 remembers. Thus a chain of effect is established and the world has a linear motion. Hehe sorry if this is poorly written, just woke up.
I suppose it's a matter of whether you'd prefer to sacrifice function for form (EQ2), or form for function (WoW). I'd greatly prefer to play a game with less-detailed environments if it meant a reduction in hard zone borders. I had quite a few issues with EQ2, but those borders were at the very top. I always felt as if I were two loading screens (or more) away from wherever I was going, and each time I found myself sitting and waiting to get on with what I was doing, my frustration with the game grew. This is not to say that borders can't be handled well, because they can. Dark Age of Camelot had zones, but they made more sense. You'd pass through a very quick zone when you went from "outside" to "inside," or vice versa, you'd pass through a portal zone when going from one part of the world to another, but you never had to zone when you were riding a horse from the northernmost section of the realm to the southernmost section of the realm.
Ideally, I know for a fact I'd prefer a game world like the one in Asheron's Call 1. I'm sure there are a million technical reasons why that's not possible today, but that game world was massive, and the only hard borders were portals. You could literally run for two hours straight from one end of the world to the other, pass through a half-dozen types of terrain, and never hit a single loading screen. That added immeasurably to immersion, and I certainly hope the technology exists somewhere in the future to return to such a system. At the moment, I find it a sad commentary on the industry that the "zone" technology of today feels so much like something from the dark ages of computer programming, and the "zone" technology of tomorrow is evident in a game created seven years ago.
All that said, it's probably too late in production to adopt a "lower-res, lesser zone" strategy, and I have no idea how many potential players would be happier with that than the strategy Simu is currently pursuing. Still, I urge you to make those borders as unobtrusive as possible. Having to zone four times in order to get from your crafting station to the outside of the city is enough to make even the most patient of players into crazed fiends, no matter how pretty the city appears, no matter how informative the loading screens are. If that's the price you have to pay for graphics like those in EQ2, then technology hasn't advanced to the point where those graphics should be used; I'd rather have an ugly cheetah than a painted cow any day of the week.
(I realize I come off as pretty heavily-opinionated here, but this is one of only two issues about the game that really gets under my skin. I know everyone at Simutronics is doing all they can and working very hard for very little material compensation, and I don't mean to just swoop in and throw rocks at what you're building. Feedback was requested, however, so I thought it best if I provided a blunt response rather than a filtered one. Cheers for the effort, and for asking this question at all.)
I had forgotten about Asherons Call. It did feel massive but the more I think about it it also felt empty. Sure you could run for hours but you didn't see a whole lot on the trip.
I think I speak for most of the GM's that come here when I say we value your - and everyone elses - opinions. Whether or not I personally agree with someones opinion doesn't make it less valuable, I get good ideas about designing new areas either way.
I just feel it's only fair to point out that some of the things that people ask for may seem perfectly reasonable but just not technically possible at this time.
Vanguard: SoH is going with a "seamless" world, so it can be done (but doesn't mean it will be better than HJ).
I most prefer a seamless world, with zones for "special areas" like dungeons, etc. This would be like the old Asheron's Call and the new Vanguard: SoH (maybe Darkfall also, not sure).
Second, I prefer a zoned system where the zones are contiguous (touching). This would be like the old EverQuest where you could look into the zone ahead but only inanimate objects were rendered. Anarchy Online also had that system where zone barriers would touch although you would only see inanimate objects in the next zone rendered (AO zone barriers could be seen when you got very close -- seemed to add a nice sci-fi feel.
Last of all, I dislike the "zoned and separate" (connected by whatever teleporting method you are using).
The EverQuest 2 system of zoned-and-separate with "ship bells" connecting the zones seemed the least immersive and never made me feel like I was traveling "far away." Everything just seemed two "ship bells" away -- and the zones, IMO, were said to be "large" yet I found them exceedingly small and able to be traversed -- one way -- in a few minutes with a mount, and faster with a griffon ride.
City of Villains also uses the old CoH system where you cannot actually leave a zone except by the various ferry boats or helicopters. Your ferry boat or helicopter (and all missions for that matter) are merely loading screens.
However, I have read the GM who responded to my post that the HJ world will be "similar to" the CoH/CoV gameworld with completely separate zones connected by some form of teleportation.
That is perhaps the ONLY news about HJ that I found somewhat discouraging.
On the other hand, the screenshots that I have seen of the gameworld look excellent, and seem to have a nice atmosphere and feeling to them. However, teleporting to separate zones which are neither seamless nor contiguous WILL decrease the feeling that you are in a large gameworld.
That doesn't mean I won't play HJ, but it does mean I will probably not get a sense of an expansive world that can be traversed and explored seamlessly.
*Shrug* Oh well.
~ Ancient Membership ~
Personally I don't care. The only time it bothers me is when I have to do something like, be in a major city to craft, but have to go outside the city to get supplies. That's annoying, but zoneless vs zoned? I don't care.
Usually I look at it like this - If the Devs wanted Zoneless, great. If the Devs decided to have Zones, awesome.
On this point I will usually defer to the Devs. Mainly because it's an internal decision that is rooted in their hardware and coding and from what I've seen is usually decided early in the design stage.
I noticed that HJ-Sisca pointed out that a zoned world can be more detailed. I find that interesting and it seems logical. The zone can be isolated and not have to border anything that alters the design.
On a side note, but related. DAoC is about a 90% zoneless world except for dungeons, home cities, instances. You also zone to varies islands and such. With the last expansion (Catacombs and Darkness Rising) the richness of the zones have become very nice indeed. So, that's just a point of reference for further analysis.
For those of you that dislike load screens, how would you feel about cut sceens that make sense? For example: Lets say you are entering a major city and the guards always take time to inspect everyone entering. This could be presented as a cut sceen while the city data loads in the background. Or a cut sceen for when you board a ship and have to pay your fare. I am sure people can think of hundreds of examples.
I guess what I really want to know is, is it the DELAY that you don't like or just the fact that it's a load screen?
Jonny
So what I'm hearing isn't so much that you dislike the whole concept of zones but that you want them to make sense?
I can understand that point. I actually like the original EQ system of zones better than the bells of EQ2 or the fake trains of CoH - don't get me started on the fake trains or the cars/trucks that could push you out of the way but you couldn't jump on and ride.
So if we can build a system where the zone line makes some sort of sense - say a gate that you click on that transports you to the otherside of the gate - that would work even if there was a loading screen in between?
At first I liked the idea of the cutscene instead of a loading screen but thinking about it I worry that it would get old unless you were constantly updating the cutscenes. Players are also conditioned to press a key to make a cutscene go away and if they can't do that tend to get frustrated. As an occasional, special, kind of thing it might work though. Say you board a ship and you get a small cutscene of the ship sailing along the ocean before you appear in port.
What I would like to see, if possible, is a wide variety in the loading screens. EQ2 does an ok job of this but even there they get old after awhile. Apparently you can add some images to a folder in your EQ2 directory and those should show up as loading scenes but I haven't tried that. I'd think that something like that would be easier to implement than a lot of cutscenes and it should be easy enough to throw in new screens every once in awhile to keep them from getting old.
Just a note: in EQ2 it is possible to run from Freeport to Qeynos without using Griffs or bells and it's actually fun to try it at about level 10. Sadly that's really only 4 zones and you're right, I can do that whole run in the time it used to take me to just cross West Karana in EQ1.
For me, it's really the delay. While, I realize that some delay seems to be mandatory these days, I'd really prefer fewer load screens to more interesting load screens. There aren't many positive things I can say about SWG in its current state, but I enjoyed only having to look at load screens when entering/leaving "dungeons," going from planet to planet, or taking a shuttle. If I only have to look at one load screen an hour, it usually doesn't have much of an impact on my perception of the game at all.
Conversely, the more load screens I have to deal with in a given period of time, the more frustrated I become with the game. Even with a 100.0 Mbps cable connection, that two or three seconds of hangtime really makes me feel as if I'm in a piecemeal world, rather than a flowing landscape. Disguising borders as gates and whatnot certainly helps, but the inner-city borders in EQ2 were all doorways and gates, and I rate that among the worst experiences I've ever had in an online game. There were far too many in far too small an area. I felt like I was in rush hour traffic every time I did anything within Freeport or Qeynos- stop, go, stop, go, stop, go.
Actually I'm really curious to hear this. You disagree with people saying a certain feature can ruin their immersion? Or just dislike it?
After playing mmorpgs with zones and seamless world, I always find myself enjoying the ones with a seamless world alot more. It's not the waiting for the loading that bothers me, it's the break in the immersion, as Archaos described.
I find myself less interested in mmorpgs that have zones lately. It makes me feel like I am playing a single player RPG, especially when the zones are special instanced area for groups, or solo only. I'm more interested in seeing more mmorpgs come out with single, seamless worlds, perhaps with a few instances for special quests and a handful of instanced dungeons. Otherwise, I want to be in the same zone as everyone else.
This is a great idea. if loading screens are to be used, i'd much rather have them be logical cutscenes.
You mention you would worry about a cutscene getting old, but how could it possibly be worse than the static repetitive images of a normal loading screen? A moving picture is already a thousand times more visually stimulating. The best possible combination of loading screen entertainment would be a cinematic with randomized text overlaid on it somewhere talking about interesting facts or the history of the area you were going into. Heck, if the cutscenes were really logical, many people might not even realize it was loading.
If zones have to be used I definitely agree they should make sense. I also think the area or method you use to access the zones should make sense and look as seemless as possible.
CoH is a good example with their above ground subway system. So an access door, or portal type system to you need to use somehow in order to get to the zoned areas would work well. Even the way WoW does their boats and battlegrounds isn't bad. And the loading screen should also make sense with maybe tips or hints to the area that show at the bottom with the screen being pictures of things you'll see in the zone.
Overall, I prefer a seemless world, but appreciate the value of zones in creating content.
Paks
Weeee! My requested thread is already almost to 3 pages!
I'll post more later, but just wanted to pipe in something real quick.
If you've read the Lore that's been released you'll note that the world has essentially been blown up. Zones are going to be a must with that since there is no way to create seamless zones without giving everyone the ability to fly through space. Don't worry about losing immersion though. You'll like what the folks are doing with travel.
GM Illuminatis
World Builder
Hero's Journey
I like the idea of cut scenes to overlay loading into a zone. Someone made the comment that they thought that would get repetitive. Then someone else responded with how could it be more repetitive than a static screen. I agree. If there must be loading, and I haven't personally seen any games that didn't have it, wether that be online or single player, then my vote would go for a cut scene of some sorts.
It seems like the general gaming world pretty much hates loading screens. And so it goes without saying that the game developing community is aware of this perceived problem with gaming. If the decision was made to include loading between sections of the game, outside areas or the insides of homes and shops or where ever, then I find it hard to belive it wasn't needed. And because I have no knowledge of code writing, game design, or server networking I would be an idiot to say out right that a company was implementing these loading times just to save money or because they can't write code properly.
So that said...hopefully they will also be inventive in this area as well as other game aspects they have hinted at. I am going to stay hopeful. Either we are being handed a load of mer or this game is going to be as revolutionary as we hope.
When I am staring at a long or short loading screen I can't help but wonder what is going on behind the scenes. Is it so cpu or gpu intensive that I have to remain static? Or could I, say, open the gate to another part of the city and it load while I am walking down a short, hopefully short, tunnel?
Or like how emotes are set up using my Avatars character model. Could door opening between zoned rooms be done as an emote and use my Avatar in a door opening emote- like cut scene?
At the very least show my character twiddling his or her thumbs in frustration, or scuffing his shoes while waiting for the magic area to load.
Not sure if that is the same thing as a cut scene. And I realize if you had a door opening emote that people would complain about the doors in the cut scene being different than the door you were actually trying to open in the game.
Even if it took longer than it normally would for my avatar to compleat the animation of opening a door, I think that would be preferable to the standard static information or concept art screen.
Or even better yet, everyone in the game could randomly upon character creation have assigned to them a spirit guide, which we could name of course. This guide would only appear at these moments, any time loading to a zone was required. The possibilities of interaction between you and the guide are endless. Make it comic relief, game hints, comments on your playing style, letting you know if anyone on your friends list is in the zone you are about to enter, quest reminders, etc.
I can just see it now. I am about to zone and my guide, or curse as some might think of them, pops in to tell me what a complete moron I was in bartering with merchant Bob. And how if he were still alive he would disown me. And if he had a foot he would...
I would spend all day zoning and would pine for the companionship of my crotchety old ancestral/magical/mythical/imaginary friend.
Heck, these little bothersome freaks might be so enjoyable and informative the game designers might have to give YOU a reminder that loading is done.
That is when I click on the button saying I am not done talking to Jiffy the Great...Or maybe Jiffy will get bored and tell me it's time to zone already.
Personally I will be petitioning the developers to allow Jiffy the Great to give me in zone hints as well. Like "Hey idiot, the Zoltar tower is in the 'other' West".
I miss Jiffy already...
"You mention you would worry about a cutscene getting old, but how could it possibly be worse than the static repetitive images of a normal loading screen? A moving picture is already a thousand times more visually stimulating. The best possible combination of loading screen entertainment would be a cinematic with randomized text overlaid on it somewhere talking about interesting facts or the history of the area you were going into. Heck, if the cutscenes were really logical, many people might not even realize it was loading."
It would be interesting if they used these cutscenes to introduce, hint at, world and local events. Instead of the text being random, GM's could use this as a way to drop hints about events they plan to run in the near future. So while you are paying your fee to ride the boat, you overhear two people talking about the new boot salesman that arrived in town last night.
Jonny
I forget what game it was. But there used to be one when you trasitioned to another screen youd get the time. General events for the area. Sorta like a breif newsclip. Takes alot of manpower to keep that sort of thing updated tho. In another thread I started I pointed out that involving people in there game world is often as simple as reporting whats happening in that game world. People know there going to be reported for what they do. Which leads to more events. Thriving communities require communication... also alot of time hehe. Anywho its a good idea addressing the loadscreens
[quote]Originally posted by HJ-Illuminat
[b]If you've read the Lore that's been released you'll note that the world has essentially been blown up. Zones are going to be a must with that since there is no way to create seamless zones without giving everyone the ability to fly through space. Don't worry about losing immersion though. You'll like what the folks are doing with travel.[/quote]
Sounds like the CoV approach to me. Of course that doesn't mean it can't be done well. The cutscenes people are talking about sound like they'd work nicely with the sort of transitions possible from one zone to the next.
Also, I want to point out that while WoW doesn't have loading times between areas, it does have zones. Almost all of these zones are divided into valleys, which were very common in EQ. You almost always have to travel between two impassable hills to get to the next area, while there's the occasional stream to traverse. Sometimes there's a big open area, but you can always see the zone-line because the dirt suddenly changes color. Think back to EQ. Zones were divided into valleys, a couple were split by rivers (not streams), and there were some zones with borders that extended all the way across them (like the desert).
Judging from what Illuminat said, it sounds like the zones will be (quite literally) disconnected. Hopefully we'll get something more creative than "ship bells".
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I was under the impression the world was sundered. Not blown apart into floating peices. Maybe im wrong. Anycase yeah deffinetly need a better mechanism then ship bells hehe. Heck id even stand for airships like in WoW. Didnt mind the load screens on those and had some fun parties on those airships hehe. Not to mention some sweat sea diving!
Yes, and regardless if I prefer seamless, contiguous zones or separate zones, I tend to trust the good folks over at Simutronics to create an immersive fantasy world.
Hmmm, also, now remembering that even EQ was able to integrate "separate" zones in a rather convincing way. The entrance to the Planes of Knowledge was through book on a lectern ... while teleportation spires were used to go to the moon ... and a magic gem hidden behind a waterfall took you to Surefall Glade. And, frankly, it seemed to make perfect sense to access those separate zones in the various manners.
So, overall, I'm just going to trust Simutronics to have looked into this area and come up with some good ideas -- and many thanks to the GMs who give us responses to these various topics.
~ Ancient Membership ~