[quote]Originally posted by Redmumba [b]First off, I think the players here are misinterpreting higher level raids like MC, BWL, etc.. Simply put, you don't need to be in a guild to do any of them... however, the one thing to remember is that you're going to need a lot of preparation, practice, and reliability, and you're not going to get this trying to make a pickup group with a bunch of strangers. That's where guilds come in.[/quote]
You started to touch on this, but I'll state it more plainly: What so many of us are complaining about is that in order *to have success* in end game content we are all but required to join a mega-guild.
But really, that's a false choice. There's no real reason why a group of smaller guilds couldn't get together, decide they want to do X raid instance at Y and Z times, and start hammering out the content until they're good at it. HOWEVER, coordinating on this scale is not an easy thing in-game. In fact, it's downright difficult. And many of us would like it if WoW had some kind of functionality that made it easier for us to put forth the effort to do this content with like-minded players without having to do a ton of work outside the game realm or feeling like we need to leave our small guild which otherwise excels at serving our needs.
... Here, your opposition is misplaced. This Article illustrates the problem your group ran into: miscommunication and lack of leadership. That's not the Guild system's fault, that's your guild's fault, plain and simple. Once again, running a large guild takes time and effort, and once again, you're requesting the benefits of group play without the hard work behind it.
Agreed on the miscommunication issue, but I strongly disagree with the bit about wanting the benefits without doing the hard work.
From what I have seen happen over and over again, many want to do the content, but they disagree as to how they were gonna do it. They choose (poorly, it appears) the clearest path available to having success in end-game: to become an uber-guild. But as happens more often than not, it all falls apart.
One would hope that the developers would prefer it if the game's shortcomings on social organization didn't lead to such levels of frustration and straining RL friendships.
For many of us, the ideal is something akin to a "regular pickup group," where you gather together regardless of guild affiliation (or lack thereof) to commit to a regular group to do X raid instance. I see people trying to do this on the LFG channel now, but it's all a manual process. It sure would be nice if WoW made it easier.
With those things being said, I'm perfectly able to get stuff done without a guild; like I mentioned before, MC is specifically made for guilds who can tough it out. If you can't find a guild you're happy with or that's capable of running MC, you can't go to MC, plain and simple. I mean, everybody is essentially saying, "I can't afford a Porsche, so instead of putting the effort into getting one, I want you to make the Porsche easier to get."
Again, not everyone is saying that. I'm more than willing to pay for the damn Porche. I just don't think I should have to take a crappy job working for a grade A arsehole in order to pay for it. There are plenty of good paying gigs out there. Just make it easier to find a boss and a regular crew to go out and do the job.
Overall, however, I hate to say it, but I think a lot of people are simply angry because they can't find groups or don't want to spend countless hours planning in order to get what they want. In fact--mirroring what I said in response to one of the posts above--it seems people want access to raid loot without the raid. Guild content is there for guilds only, like everybody has said previously. However, if there were no such thing as guilds, these instances would most likely not exist. Think of it that way.
Damn right some of us are angry because we can't find groups to do this. We're capable and are willing to put forth the time and effort. We just don't feel like we should necessarily have to give up our otherwise excellent guild in order to get there.
High end raid content does NOT require a guild. It requires a group of dedicated players willing to work together for an extended amount of time and effort to have success. Unfortunately, due to difficulties in getting such groups together in-game, the only readily available mechanism for creating such a group is a raiding guild. This is an artificial constraint, and one many of us do not want any part of.
IMO guilds ruin the games.Devs and players just don't see the whole picture.They turn into clans that totally ignore the rest of the players in the gaming world..is that suppose to be friendly?or is that interacting in an mmo? NOpe not in the least.
The second thing that really gets me is that ,why do people say there good to make friends and ect ect?Since when do you need a guild to form a friends list in any game?Since when do you need a guild to form an alliance to go out an fight end game mobs?
instead Guilds actually alienate players from one another.Reason is that these guild oriented games have content that pretty much have players forming STATIC parties,wich are needed to save the ridiculous waiting time of forming a party or alliance.I could see a much better scenario ,wheras players just gather outside an instance and start grabbing different players to form a party.This way you know every player waiting there is interested and would take no time at all.
I can spell out the simple reason why static parties don't work and guild raids dont work.
1 guild goes on raid ..some of the wanting to join members are working or have RL things to do that day and are left out ,leaving a bitter taste in there mouth.Guess what else happens>>>the ones who finished the quest or mission all of a sudden dont feel like helping the others ,and have RL things to do or so they say[believe me i have seen some real BS excuses ].This all of a sudden forms little guilds within the guild,seperating its own members from each other.
2 All of a sudden one member of static has to work outa town for 2 months.There not gonna wait ,now player with RL issues is left out to dry.What are chances of finding another static within your guild at same level?not too good.Now if you look outside the guild ,doesn't that defeat the purpose of being in the guild?I also see players leaving outside parties to go join there guild[gtg guild is calling],leaving there party hung out to dry saying WTF?IS that suppose to be friendly just because your dedicated to your guild ?i say not.it's being rude to the players you just left on the limb.
3 one of the most sickening things i see in guilds is this>>>DING level 50 ding level 51
if that's all that matters to a player paying his hard earned money is to see nothing more than a stupid number beside his/her name then they need help.Pay me the money and ill send you an EMAIL with any number you like beside your name.The other thing i see in guilds is nothing more than bragging players,turns my stomach when i see that in the chat steady.I have been in a ton of clans/guilds and they are ALWAYS the same,so don't even try to tell me how great your guild is.
Usually the players who like them are the players who have all day to play the game and never miss a thing or the players who get baby fed or pampered alot also like the ego boosting.Usually 50/50 half the members are leeches and the other half spend all there time helping and never get even a thank you.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
On a server, me and alot of RL friends started playing the game, some RL friends knew other RL friends who some didn't know, but we're all a bunch of young and old people, we formed a guild, half of us were Elitists ( the older guys ), while the younger guys are a bunch of crazy fellows who love new things and crazy social encounters.
it was a good experience, but there are somethings that realy bothered me, well, the whole thing actually did, the GM ( i didn't meet him in RL at that time ) put some strict rules, only speak in english, don't say where you're from, don't say, don't, don't.
so one day we were raiding Dartmoor ( waaaaaaaay before TOA, and maybe SI ), our whole guild, we were almost done when one guy asked in the allience about where we were from, me and another friend said, guess from where and i'll give you a candy, so the guy said, Kuwait ? , then we both said, come here and take your candy, after this Moment the GM assistance yelled my name in Anger, after that i had a little chat with the GM and i quit the guild. my point is, so much for friends' guild, of course he never did anything to my other friend who said the same thing, well i always get yelled by the same GM asst. for silly reasons such as speaking in my language when there're only kuwaitis on.
anyway, after sometime the guild scattered around, most of us quit and played on other servers.
when WoW came out, like half of those who played DAoC started playing with us, so we formed a guild and there was these rules, speak in english only, you're not obliged to help the guild, stay respctful and don't bring disgrace to the guild, do whatever you want into those rules, and few others i forgot.
the thing is, we all know each others, so we group with each others and help each others, but the problem is there was no planned Events and such that actually made us stick together like we should be, so me a paladin used to play with the same friend i mentioned who was playing a rogue, from level 1 to 60, after that he rolled a priest, at some point he joined another guild, then some people quit, the guild which used ot have like 20+ ppl now can barely get 8 ppl on, after PVP came out we all quit, again so much for friends' guilds.
but ok now i came back to WoW and tried to join my friend's guild which does all the MC and BWL raids, but he said that the guild don't need any paladins, and the raids are full and stuff, so i said to myself, why bother, quit again.
so in those big guilds when they have enough players, they won't need you, you won't get in, and you'll simply stay alone, and i don't want to join a smaller guild, i wanted to do the big things, and i realy don't like to play with ppl who DON'T know how to play, i don't mind if that person was lvl 20 or 25 and still didn't get the grasp of the game, but after lvl 30 and don't know what your class does, i simply either kick that person from the group or kick myself from that group, because why add more pressure, got enought of it, and big guilds only recruit whoever they wish, no one knows you ? you're not welcome.
but some other guilds do MASS invites, which will get you alot of kinds of people, and again i don't want the type of ppl who can't learn what and how to do things after getting into the high levels, i can't stand it.
so much for GUILDS only content, this is one person suffering his guild life, so what did i do ? in EVE online you can do everything solo, even if takes time, you can raid the toughest of complexes ( Dungeons ) if you have the right equipment, which are easily found on the market, i'm in a corp, of friends i got to know when i joined the game, the thing it's very different in EVE, you can solo raid a dungeon, you don't need more than yourself, and maybe your support ship, then a friend asks to join, he can hop in anytime he wants, there's no limit to how many ppl can get into the dungeon.
in DAOC i joined a very big guild and tried to do things there, but everything was static, still, wherever i go to join guilds it turns out the same.
basicly what i'm trying to say is, some small guilds have alot of noobs in there ( noob: is a person who don't and won't know how to play his class ), most small guilds can't get into the big raids, most of the very big guilds don't have alot of orgenization ( except for the very basic ppl who usually stick together and do things ), and the other bigger guilds won't just recruit anyone.
so they put alliences for guilds, well that won't solve anything, some ppl in guild A have that person in guild B, and the person in guild B who is grouped with some ppl from guild A finds himself unable to get the items he want from the raid, so person from guild B tell his GM and then big fight happen, allience split, no more allience, it happens and ALOT.
i've reached a level where i can't type anymore. good luck.
Originally posted by Redmumba Since I've only played World of Warcraft extensively, that's what I'll use as a basis for my post. So here goes...First off, I think the players here are misinterpreting higher level raids like MC, BWL, etc.. Simply put, you don't need to be in a guild to do any of them... however, the one thing to remember is that you're going to need a lot of preparation, practice, and reliability, and you're not going to get this trying to make a pickup group with a bunch of strangers. That's where guilds come in.
Sooo... you're saying you don't need a guild, but you won't be able to do it without the benefits of being in a guild?
The problem with most people's reasoning is that you do not have to complete these objectives in order to enjoy the game. Just as you don't have to do instances to reach level 60, you don't have to run high level, forty man raid instances. This is NOT required content;
Point. It's just the only top-end content, in a style of game marketted towards people who want their content presented to them. It's the content that all the fans hype as what makes or breaks the game; in the example of WoW, it's the stuff described as being where the game *really* begins.
So, sure: you don't need to do it to enjoy the game. But that's as empty a statement as saying you technically don't need to be in a guild to do it, when really you need the guild-benefits to actually do it. If the non-guilded don't have *something* offered to them, the game runs out of content for them.
And that's what we're talking about wrt guild favoritism: should the 'end-game' be "Everything past this point is guild-only; join a guild, or move on to another game"?
I recently got my first priest to 60 and my rogue to 44 without joining a single guild, and I've never had a problem finding a group--be it a 5 man or a 20 man. How am I going to get my epic gear, then? Simple: PVP, the single solution to just about everyone's problems.
Except the PvE player. Or the lone/small-group PvPer who gets ganked by the sheer numbers of the PvP guild. Or the guy who can`t compete against the folks who have their choice of the best Raid-rewards and PvP-rewards.
If you have the organization and the dedication to raid MC, you get the epics to carry with it. So what is it that you really want? Extremely high level equipment without the work? Like I said, its a lot of work to get people organized in a guild, and that work is paid off;
Gee, and it's not paid off enough by simply having a well-organized guild? Is the concept or implementation of guilds so bloody awful that you have to *bribe* people to partake in them with (technically) exclusive content and rewards?
It's a game. If the work isn't rewarding in itself, it shouldn't be part of the game. Risk vs Reward; not grind to your reward.
if everybody with a couple friends could raid these places and get great equipment, where would the honor be?
To answer your question with another: if the honour is so important, why do you need the great equipment *as well*?
I don't believe it's about the honour. It's about the equipment for most - which is simultaneously why people bitch about the exclusivity of the content and why it's so difficult to get a good guild; too many people joining the guilds for the content, rather than for the guild. You have to work twice as hard, either to weed them out of the guild or to work them in cohesively; and they have to put up with crap they don't particularly enjoy to get the little bits they do.
(BTW that last bit - putting up with unenjoyable crap in order to get to the enjoyable parts of the game - is the concept of grinding in a nutshell.)
Here, your opposition is misplaced. This Article illustrates the problem your group ran into: miscommunication and lack of leadership. That's not the Guild system's fault, that's your guild's fault, plain and simple. Once again, running a large guild takes time and effort, and once again, you're requesting the benefits of group play without the hard work behind it.
What I'm asking is that developers stop rewarding grind-behaviour in games. If being in a huge guild is so much bloody work that it needs *special* rewards to be worth it, then huge guilds should not be happening in games.
This ain't real life. This is what we do with the rewards we get for the work we've already done. To use your Porsche example: I've already plunked down my cash, and now you're telling me - and fourty others - we can only get our Porsches if we each sign a document stating we'll drive our Porsches together through an obstacle course every week.
I'm not sure how the other MMOs treat PVP, but I know that WoW does a good job of rewarding those who put in the time.
And that's exactly what I don't like about WoW and similar games: it rewards you for grinding, in both mechanical and social aspects.
Games are supposed to be things where the time put in is the reward. If I want something that rewards me for putting in the time, I'll get a second job.
Originally posted by _Seeker But in the developers defence. People will only group, and work co-operatively together, if there is a reason. The reason in this case is advancement. How else can they increase the difficulty without making it hardwork? What would you do if there were no "uber" hard dungeons with powerful items in them?
I suppose that's a consequence of the system. You make the dungeon that is supposed to be difficult for 5 people, and the socializer-achiever types decide the solution is to take 8 people in. So you make a dungeon that is difficult for 8 people, and they take 12 in. And so on, until you get to the 40-man raid scenario - at which point, the difficulty has become less about taking the dungeon and more about organizing the squad.
Wow lots of whiners here lol. If you don't like big guilds, then dont join them, there are many other ways to see some raid content. Only way End game content will ever be worth reaching is thru a big guild. I can think of a few right now that would be laughable to have a pick raid try. they would fail every attempt, they would have 0 chance of winning. That and the best gear in the game is kinda a shallow view of the game imo.
What happen to the fun of exploring, hanging out, role playing, and just having fun. I see so often people complain that the raiding guilds have better than me, they are wanted for grouping more than me, and all that junk. If you cant stand the raiding guilds on your server, the just worry about being a raider. true on some games like wow thats about it in end game. Personally wow was to spoon feed and dry for my tastes and bailed on it after only a short while.
Making alliances wiith other family guilds does work will take a while for everyone to get used to each others play style, and once agai nwill not be able to take on the hardest raid content. but they can get pretty far.
I like the way guilds are done now. if i want the high end content i check out the high end guilds find one with the people i like the most and join them. If im not bothering with th best stuff in the game i find a nice relaxing family guild to hang with and help them out. But to do as you guys wnat would be to lower the difficulty so pick up raids could do any raid mob /yawn!! I like the challenge, I like having a guild of pople that see raid calls and know what they are supposed to do at every second of the raid event. I like raids where one person does the slightest thing wrong the whole thing fails, Its call challenge something the newer mmo's as of late are missing.
Originally posted by skeezixs Wow lots of whiners here lol. If you don't like big guilds, then dont join them
Gee, yet another guy who doesn't quite get it. The issue isn't about liking or disliking big guilds; it's about whether big guilds should be favoured over small groups by the developers in general.
Now obviously some people say they shouldn't precisely because they dislike big uberguilds. But others are saying they shouldn't (in general) because it essentially forces you to either join an uberguild or accept that the game is now over for you; and that just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth regardless of how much I like or dislike big guilds.
I'm for higher end content = guilds and larger groups. Its an aspect of MMPORG, these aren't meant to be solo games. If you need an MMPORG you can solo with all the time, you can do that with some other game online or offline game.
On the other hand, I'm against closing off all avenues except through larger groups. Some soloing has to be retained at all levels or there will be a drop off as players leave for no other reason than that other players from their prior groups have left.
WoW gets special wacks here because, as a prior good poster wrote, you change gears at 60, from solo/small group play to large group play. Funneling your game experience into a different channel is a great way to po players.
On the other hand, if you don't give some greater reward for the hassle of getting a group together, larger groups won't happen. I think players in MMPORG have to get used to the idea that a given good game will give many different content avenues, and many of which you won't use, and not cater all to you. Leave play options and content available to other players and different playing styles. And if that means you aren't the uber character you think you need to be, but you aren't willing to put the effort into the character, that's just rl, grow up.
I am a casual player. By causal, I am referring to the attitude that the game is fun and to be enjoyed. I've seen way too many people where I work take the current MMOG they play and approach it as a job. I can't do that. I want to enjoy my gaming experiences.
Seems too many forget the definition of G A M E includes "An amusement or diversion."
With your healthy attitude SoliTear it is unlikely you will drop dead from a heartattack brought on by unnecessary stress. You are the kind of player I enjoy in any game! Keep on enjoying!!
My view is the debate isn't even barking up the right tree. The 800 pound gorilla (WoW) is coloring everyone's thinking. Guild related content is good if done right. Done like WoW, its a pretty bad thing. We are already seeing these effects in my guild and other guilds that I have friends in. The WoW version does rip small/medium guilds apart, no denying it.
So what would guild content done right look like? It would be QUESTS that require a skilled group of a dozen or less toons to solve the puzzles and kill the bosses in a reasonable amount of time. The short answer is a dozen toons in an hour or so, NOT 40 in 4 hours which is the mess WoW makes. I'm absolutely stunned folks do those and do them regularly. And the only reward is a chance at a purple item....DOH!!!
The WoW infatuation with MOB clutter in its instances is just felony stupid. It adds nothing to the experience and is a huge time sink.
i quit WoW because of elitist guilds you have to fight to get into. PVE stuff after lvl58 means you HAVE to have a group you can trust and it takes months for them to even acknowledge you exist. 40 people to get good gear? please spare me because all this does is make you continue your subscription until you feel you have accomplished something. WoW was easy to quit...VERY easy. PVP gear takes endless grinding to obtain which is months of gameplay in battlegrounds that is boring to say the least. I enjoyed the content in SWG (yeah..i know) because it was centered around groups of 8 or less. Yeah it used to take a group of 20 to clear DWB but at least it was possible to get in a group and most people were friendly and WANTED to meet new people. The best part about SWG was that you weren't guaranteed anything..(few exceptions) and the excitement came from PLAYING the game not in obtaining gear. The other nice thing about SWG was it is/was a skill based game and the difference between a lvl70 and a lvl80 wasn't very much. where as a lvl59 and lvl60 in WoW is monumental. It all comes down to people with power using it. I may be making a generalizatin about these uber-geeks but there is life outside of gaming...its fun to escape to your fantasy world and do some content..but for some people its all they think about and all they care about. So my vote is...guilds are fine just don't make the end game so hard to obtain. lower the requirements and more people will play longer because you don't have to spend 5 hours in MC to wipe 40 people because 1 person forgot to heal every 2 seconds, its rediculous for players...makes sense for the people collecting the $
Originally posted by isia I'm for higher end content = guilds and larger groups. Its an aspect of MMPORG, these aren't meant to be solo games. If you need an MMPORG you can solo with all the time, you can do that with some other game online or offline game.
I'm noticing a (hopefully inadvertant) tendency to view things in terms of Large Group vs Solo single-player style, with no regard for what's in between.
What's wrong with small to mid-sized groups, or informal associations (ie being a 'solo' player in a world with many other players in it)? These are things I can't do in an offline game, and am having an ever more difficult time of doing in any online game. Even FPS games have strayed towards the batallion model.
On the other hand, if you don't give some greater reward for the hassle of getting a group together, larger groups won't happen.
I disagree, but that may be optimism. Larger groups have formed in games where there was no special reward for being in one other than the inherent advantages of being in a large, organized group. Not as often, perhaps, but I guarantee the people are in them because they want to be in that group - rather than just because they feel (rightly or wrongly) that they need the big-group to see the rest of the game.
That makes for better groups *and* better games IMO.
I think players in MMPORG have to get used to the idea that a given good game will give many different content avenues, and many of which you won't use, and not cater all to you. Leave play options and content available to other players and different playing styles.
That's kind of my point as well. I'm just directing it at the folks who seem to think it's ok for the 'end-game' to be uberguild exclusive.
I get it you think the game ends if you dont join the uber guilds and go after the big targets. So what if you can't? If you can't find anything left in the game then yah its over then move on. I have done this in many games even before hitting max lvl in some. Wow just was horribly done i bailed on it pretty fast. Eq2 even worse, Lineage2 was fun for a while, DAoC also pretty good stayed with it for a while, Shadowbane, tutorial was fun but after that it went down hill fast. AO was pretty good to just way to repetitive. Eq 1 still the best out there imo, tons to do, lots of content, decent story line, challenging raids, and overall pretty well rounded.
Personally its not being favored its just makes sense. Why shouldn't the hardest creatures/ events in the a Massive Multi-player game take a Many people to complete? Why should a soloer, or group have access to everything?
I like the thought of working for my progression to the new challenging content. Personally I hate to see when they open it up for all to come in. It cheapens the game and takes away that sense of accomplishment.
You come off sounding like some of the people we just booted from our guild. They want everything but dont want to have work for it. Everytime raid is called seeing people camping, or swaping over to alts. Then later they whine cause they don't have a key, flag, access, gear, and so on. If big guilds is not for you then you better find a mmo with other avenues of entertainment. Such as Tradeskills, Helping train and teach lower lvl players, Host riads for thsoe not wishing to be in the raiding guild bt would like a shot at some of the higher content. Or hey here is a odd idea Roleplay in a Roleplaying game lol. Well whatever play how you like and find the game that works best for yah.
Originally posted by skeezixs I get it you think the game ends if you dont join the uber guilds and go after the big targets. So what if you can't? If you can't find anything left in the game then yah its over then move on.
Exactly. And unless you intended the game to be 'play for 1/2/6 months then abandon,' that sort of design is a failure for anyone who is not naturally attracted to the uberguilds.
Eq 1 still the best out there imo, tons to do, lots of content, decent story line, challenging raids, and overall pretty well rounded.
I think that's a major dividing line. Most EQ fanbois seem to like uberguild favoritism; most old-school UO fanbois (like me) do not.
For me, Ultima Online was the best out there. I prefer what I guess is called the 'sandbox' approach - no devs handing you quests, just saying "Here's the world, make of it what you will."
When you do that, you get massively multiplayer without the need for Massive-Group Only content.
I like the thought of working for my progression to the new challenging content.
What work? Just join an uberguild, and let the leader of said uberguild do the work.
Maybe that's not what you do, but I'd be willing to bet well over half the folks in the uberguilds take that approach. Is that what you really want - a horde of 'team-mates' who are just there to access content they otherwise couldn't get to?
Doesn't their presence not only cheapen the 'work' you did, but add to it? That's what Uberguild-Only content does.
If big guilds is not for you then you better find a mmo with other avenues of entertainment.
No offence, but that gets a big "duh." I've got no illusions about convincing you that I'm right, since this is all just opinion about what makes the game enjoyable. I'm arguing here in hopes that the trend of MMO devs designing games around Uberguilds will not become universal, so that there *will* still be games that offer other avenues.
Or hey here is a odd idea Roleplay in a Roleplaying game lol. Well whatever play how you like and find the game that works best for yah.
You've just touched apon my major pet-peeve in all RPGs: design concepts that force me to choose between being effective or being in-character. Uberguild Favoritism is just one of those concepts that does that.
What work? Just join an uberguild, and let the leader of said uberguild do the work.
Maybe that's not what you do, but I'd be willing to bet well over half the folks in the uberguilds take that approach. Is that what you really want - a horde of 'team-mates' who are just there to access content they otherwise couldn't get to?
Doesn't their presence not only cheapen the 'work' you did, but add to it? That's what Uberguild-Only content does
You must not have done ome of the hard raids, where one person not doing it right and whole raid wipes. Lots of what we do, you need everyone doing the correct thing or its not gonna happen. For example Vish raid, You got to pop eggs before they hatch , tank the main dragon, kill mana mob for mana refresh, take care of adds, if any one dies an add will spawn, you can not hurt the adds or it will wipe raid, aoe Death touch dot wher you have to find a target mob to say a select phrase to to get rid of it or you die, and add spawns. There is no way someone could just sit back a try to let the leader do all the work. There are many more raids like this where one person in wrong spot at the wrong time and raid is over.
Personally i liked UO for a while but found it rather dry and lacking content. But even still if i get bored of the raids there is lots of stuff i can find to do. just all depends on what your goal is.
Comments
[quote]Originally posted by Redmumba
[b]First off, I think the players here are misinterpreting higher level raids like MC, BWL, etc.. Simply put, you don't need to be in a guild to do any of them... however, the one thing to remember is that you're going to need a lot of preparation, practice, and reliability, and you're not going to get this trying to make a pickup group with a bunch of strangers. That's where guilds come in.[/quote]
You started to touch on this, but I'll state it more plainly: What so many of us are complaining about is that in order *to have success* in end game content we are all but required to join a mega-guild.
But really, that's a false choice. There's no real reason why a group of smaller guilds couldn't get together, decide they want to do X raid instance at Y and Z times, and start hammering out the content until they're good at it. HOWEVER, coordinating on this scale is not an easy thing in-game. In fact, it's downright difficult. And many of us would like it if WoW had some kind of functionality that made it easier for us to put forth the effort to do this content with like-minded players without having to do a ton of work outside the game realm or feeling like we need to leave our small guild which otherwise excels at serving our needs.
Agreed on the miscommunication issue, but I strongly disagree with the bit about wanting the benefits without doing the hard work.
From what I have seen happen over and over again, many want to do the content, but they disagree as to how they were gonna do it. They choose (poorly, it appears) the clearest path available to having success in end-game: to become an uber-guild. But as happens more often than not, it all falls apart.
One would hope that the developers would prefer it if the game's shortcomings on social organization didn't lead to such levels of frustration and straining RL friendships.
For many of us, the ideal is something akin to a "regular pickup group," where you gather together regardless of guild affiliation (or lack thereof) to commit to a regular group to do X raid instance. I see people trying to do this on the LFG channel now, but it's all a manual process. It sure would be nice if WoW made it easier.
Again, not everyone is saying that. I'm more than willing to pay for the damn Porche. I just don't think I should have to take a crappy job working for a grade A arsehole in order to pay for it. There are plenty of good paying gigs out there. Just make it easier to find a boss and a regular crew to go out and do the job.
Damn right some of us are angry because we can't find groups to do this. We're capable and are willing to put forth the time and effort. We just don't feel like we should necessarily have to give up our otherwise excellent guild in order to get there.
High end raid content does NOT require a guild. It requires a group of dedicated players willing to work together for an extended amount of time and effort to have success. Unfortunately, due to difficulties in getting such groups together in-game, the only readily available mechanism for creating such a group is a raiding guild. This is an artificial constraint, and one many of us do not want any part of.
IMO guilds ruin the games.Devs and players just don't see the whole picture.They turn into clans that totally ignore the rest of the players in the gaming world..is that suppose to be friendly?or is that interacting in an mmo? NOpe not in the least.
The second thing that really gets me is that ,why do people say there good to make friends and ect ect?Since when do you need a guild to form a friends list in any game?Since when do you need a guild to form an alliance to go out an fight end game mobs?
instead Guilds actually alienate players from one another.Reason is that these guild oriented games have content that pretty much have players forming STATIC parties,wich are needed to save the ridiculous waiting time of forming a party or alliance.I could see a much better scenario ,wheras players just gather outside an instance and start grabbing different players to form a party.This way you know every player waiting there is interested and would take no time at all.
I can spell out the simple reason why static parties don't work and guild raids dont work.
1 guild goes on raid ..some of the wanting to join members are working or have RL things to do that day and are left out ,leaving a bitter taste in there mouth.Guess what else happens>>>the ones who finished the quest or mission all of a sudden dont feel like helping the others ,and have RL things to do or so they say[believe me i have seen some real BS excuses ].This all of a sudden forms little guilds within the guild,seperating its own members from each other.
2 All of a sudden one member of static has to work outa town for 2 months.There not gonna wait ,now player with RL issues is left out to dry.What are chances of finding another static within your guild at same level?not too good.Now if you look outside the guild ,doesn't that defeat the purpose of being in the guild?I also see players leaving outside parties to go join there guild[gtg guild is calling],leaving there party hung out to dry saying WTF?IS that suppose to be friendly just because your dedicated to your guild ?i say not.it's being rude to the players you just left on the limb.
3 one of the most sickening things i see in guilds is this>>>DING level 50 ding level 51
if that's all that matters to a player paying his hard earned money is to see nothing more than a stupid number beside his/her name then they need help.Pay me the money and ill send you an EMAIL with any number you like beside your name.The other thing i see in guilds is nothing more than bragging players,turns my stomach when i see that in the chat steady.I have been in a ton of clans/guilds and they are ALWAYS the same,so don't even try to tell me how great your guild is.
Usually the players who like them are the players who have all day to play the game and never miss a thing or the players who get baby fed or pampered alot also like the ego boosting.Usually 50/50 half the members are leeches and the other half spend all there time helping and never get even a thank you.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In DAoC, here how it went for me...
On a server, me and alot of RL friends started playing the game, some RL friends knew other RL friends who some didn't know, but we're all a bunch of young and old people, we formed a guild, half of us were Elitists ( the older guys ), while the younger guys are a bunch of crazy fellows who love new things and crazy social encounters.
it was a good experience, but there are somethings that realy bothered me, well, the whole thing actually did, the GM ( i didn't meet him in RL at that time ) put some strict rules, only speak in english, don't say where you're from, don't say, don't, don't.
so one day we were raiding Dartmoor ( waaaaaaaay before TOA, and maybe SI ), our whole guild, we were almost done when one guy asked in the allience about where we were from, me and another friend said, guess from where and i'll give you a candy, so the guy said, Kuwait ? , then we both said, come here and take your candy, after this Moment the GM assistance yelled my name in Anger, after that i had a little chat with the GM and i quit the guild. my point is, so much for friends' guild, of course he never did anything to my other friend who said the same thing, well i always get yelled by the same GM asst. for silly reasons such as speaking in my language when there're only kuwaitis on.
anyway, after sometime the guild scattered around, most of us quit and played on other servers.
when WoW came out, like half of those who played DAoC started playing with us, so we formed a guild and there was these rules, speak in english only, you're not obliged to help the guild, stay respctful and don't bring disgrace to the guild, do whatever you want into those rules, and few others i forgot.
the thing is, we all know each others, so we group with each others and help each others, but the problem is there was no planned Events and such that actually made us stick together like we should be, so me a paladin used to play with the same friend i mentioned who was playing a rogue, from level 1 to 60, after that he rolled a priest, at some point he joined another guild, then some people quit, the guild which used ot have like 20+ ppl now can barely get 8 ppl on, after PVP came out we all quit, again so much for friends' guilds.
but ok now i came back to WoW and tried to join my friend's guild which does all the MC and BWL raids, but he said that the guild don't need any paladins, and the raids are full and stuff, so i said to myself, why bother, quit again.
so in those big guilds when they have enough players, they won't need you, you won't get in, and you'll simply stay alone, and i don't want to join a smaller guild, i wanted to do the big things, and i realy don't like to play with ppl who DON'T know how to play, i don't mind if that person was lvl 20 or 25 and still didn't get the grasp of the game, but after lvl 30 and don't know what your class does, i simply either kick that person from the group or kick myself from that group, because why add more pressure, got enought of it, and big guilds only recruit whoever they wish, no one knows you ? you're not welcome.
but some other guilds do MASS invites, which will get you alot of kinds of people, and again i don't want the type of ppl who can't learn what and how to do things after getting into the high levels, i can't stand it.
so much for GUILDS only content, this is one person suffering his guild life, so what did i do ? in EVE online you can do everything solo, even if takes time, you can raid the toughest of complexes ( Dungeons ) if you have the right equipment, which are easily found on the market, i'm in a corp, of friends i got to know when i joined the game, the thing it's very different in EVE, you can solo raid a dungeon, you don't need more than yourself, and maybe your support ship, then a friend asks to join, he can hop in anytime he wants, there's no limit to how many ppl can get into the dungeon.
in DAOC i joined a very big guild and tried to do things there, but everything was static, still, wherever i go to join guilds it turns out the same.
basicly what i'm trying to say is, some small guilds have alot of noobs in there ( noob: is a person who don't and won't know how to play his class ), most small guilds can't get into the big raids, most of the very big guilds don't have alot of orgenization ( except for the very basic ppl who usually stick together and do things ), and the other bigger guilds won't just recruit anyone.
so they put alliences for guilds, well that won't solve anything, some ppl in guild A have that person in guild B, and the person in guild B who is grouped with some ppl from guild A finds himself unable to get the items he want from the raid, so person from guild B tell his GM and then big fight happen, allience split, no more allience, it happens and ALOT.
i've reached a level where i can't type anymore. good luck.
Sooo... you're saying you don't need a guild, but you won't be able to do it without the benefits of being in a guild?
Point.
It's just the only top-end content, in a style of game marketted towards people who want their content presented to them. It's the content that all the fans hype as what makes or breaks the game; in the example of WoW, it's the stuff described as being where the game *really* begins.
So, sure: you don't need to do it to enjoy the game. But that's as empty a statement as saying you technically don't need to be in a guild to do it, when really you need the guild-benefits to actually do it. If the non-guilded don't have *something* offered to them, the game runs out of content for them.
And that's what we're talking about wrt guild favoritism: should the 'end-game' be "Everything past this point is guild-only; join a guild, or move on to another game"?
Except the PvE player.
Or the lone/small-group PvPer who gets ganked by the sheer numbers of the PvP guild.
Or the guy who can`t compete against the folks who have their choice of the best Raid-rewards and PvP-rewards.
Gee, and it's not paid off enough by simply having a well-organized guild? Is the concept or implementation of guilds so bloody awful that you have to *bribe* people to partake in them with (technically) exclusive content and rewards?
It's a game. If the work isn't rewarding in itself, it shouldn't be part of the game.
Risk vs Reward; not grind to your reward.
To answer your question with another: if the honour is so important, why do you need the great equipment *as well*?
I don't believe it's about the honour. It's about the equipment for most - which is simultaneously why people bitch about the exclusivity of the content and why it's so difficult to get a good guild; too many people joining the guilds for the content, rather than for the guild. You have to work twice as hard, either to weed them out of the guild or to work them in cohesively; and they have to put up with crap they don't particularly enjoy to get the little bits they do.
(BTW that last bit - putting up with unenjoyable crap in order to get to the enjoyable parts of the game - is the concept of grinding in a nutshell.)
What I'm asking is that developers stop rewarding grind-behaviour in games. If being in a huge guild is so much bloody work that it needs *special* rewards to be worth it, then huge guilds should not be happening in games.
This ain't real life. This is what we do with the rewards we get for the work we've already done. To use your Porsche example: I've already plunked down my cash, and now you're telling me - and fourty others - we can only get our Porsches if we each sign a document stating we'll drive our Porsches together through an obstacle course every week.
And that's exactly what I don't like about WoW and similar games: it rewards you for grinding, in both mechanical and social aspects.
Games are supposed to be things where the time put in is the reward. If I want something that rewards me for putting in the time, I'll get a second job.
I suppose that's a consequence of the system.
You make the dungeon that is supposed to be difficult for 5 people, and the socializer-achiever types decide the solution is to take 8 people in.
So you make a dungeon that is difficult for 8 people, and they take 12 in. And so on, until you get to the 40-man raid scenario - at which point, the difficulty has become less about taking the dungeon and more about organizing the squad.
Wow lots of whiners here lol. If you don't like big guilds, then dont join them, there are many other ways to see some raid content. Only way End game content will ever be worth reaching is thru a big guild. I can think of a few right now that would be laughable to have a pick raid try. they would fail every attempt, they would have 0 chance of winning. That and the best gear in the game is kinda a shallow view of the game imo.
What happen to the fun of exploring, hanging out, role playing, and just having fun. I see so often people complain that the raiding guilds have better than me, they are wanted for grouping more than me, and all that junk. If you cant stand the raiding guilds on your server, the just worry about being a raider. true on some games like wow thats about it in end game. Personally wow was to spoon feed and dry for my tastes and bailed on it after only a short while.
Making alliances wiith other family guilds does work will take a while for everyone to get used to each others play style, and once agai nwill not be able to take on the hardest raid content. but they can get pretty far.
I like the way guilds are done now. if i want the high end content i check out the high end guilds find one with the people i like the most and join them. If im not bothering with th best stuff in the game i find a nice relaxing family guild to hang with and help them out. But to do as you guys wnat would be to lower the difficulty so pick up raids could do any raid mob /yawn!! I like the challenge, I like having a guild of pople that see raid calls and know what they are supposed to do at every second of the raid event. I like raids where one person does the slightest thing wrong the whole thing fails, Its call challenge something the newer mmo's as of late are missing.
Gee, yet another guy who doesn't quite get it. The issue isn't about liking or disliking big guilds; it's about whether big guilds should be favoured over small groups by the developers in general.
Now obviously some people say they shouldn't precisely because they dislike big uberguilds. But others are saying they shouldn't (in general) because it essentially forces you to either join an uberguild or accept that the game is now over for you; and that just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth regardless of how much I like or dislike big guilds.
I'm for higher end content = guilds and larger groups. Its an aspect of MMPORG, these aren't meant to be solo games. If you need an MMPORG you can solo with all the time, you can do that with some other game online or offline game.
On the other hand, I'm against closing off all avenues except through larger groups. Some soloing has to be retained at all levels or there will be a drop off as players leave for no other reason than that other players from their prior groups have left.
WoW gets special wacks here because, as a prior good poster wrote, you change gears at 60, from solo/small group play to large group play. Funneling your game experience into a different channel is a great way to po players.
On the other hand, if you don't give some greater reward for the hassle of getting a group together, larger groups won't happen. I think players in MMPORG have to get used to the idea that a given good game will give many different content avenues, and many of which you won't use, and not cater all to you. Leave play options and content available to other players and different playing styles. And if that means you aren't the uber character you think you need to be, but you aren't willing to put the effort into the character, that's just rl, grow up.
SoliTear wrote:
Seems too many forget the definition of G A M E includes "An amusement or diversion."
With your healthy attitude SoliTear it is unlikely you will drop dead from a heartattack brought on by unnecessary stress. You are the kind of player I enjoy in any game! Keep on enjoying!!
My view is the debate isn't even barking up the right tree. The 800 pound gorilla (WoW) is coloring everyone's thinking. Guild related content is good if done right. Done like WoW, its a pretty bad thing. We are already seeing these effects in my guild and other guilds that I have friends in. The WoW version does rip small/medium guilds apart, no denying it.
So what would guild content done right look like? It would be QUESTS that require a skilled group of a dozen or less toons to solve the puzzles and kill the bosses in a reasonable amount of time. The short answer is a dozen toons in an hour or so, NOT 40 in 4 hours which is the mess WoW makes. I'm absolutely stunned folks do those and do them regularly. And the only reward is a chance at a purple item....DOH!!!
The WoW infatuation with MOB clutter in its instances is just felony stupid. It adds nothing to the experience and is a huge time sink.
God help us when all the new MMORPG's copy WoW!
Buck
I'm noticing a (hopefully inadvertant) tendency to view things in terms of Large Group vs Solo single-player style, with no regard for what's in between.
What's wrong with small to mid-sized groups, or informal associations (ie being a 'solo' player in a world with many other players in it)? These are things I can't do in an offline game, and am having an ever more difficult time of doing in any online game. Even FPS games have strayed towards the batallion model.
I disagree, but that may be optimism. Larger groups have formed in games where there was no special reward for being in one other than the inherent advantages of being in a large, organized group. Not as often, perhaps, but I guarantee the people are in them because they want to be in that group - rather than just because they feel (rightly or wrongly) that they need the big-group to see the rest of the game.
That makes for better groups *and* better games IMO.
That's kind of my point as well. I'm just directing it at the folks who seem to think it's ok for the 'end-game' to be uberguild exclusive.
I get it you think the game ends if you dont join the uber guilds and go after the big targets. So what if you can't? If you can't find anything left in the game then yah its over then move on. I have done this in many games even before hitting max lvl in some. Wow just was horribly done i bailed on it pretty fast. Eq2 even worse, Lineage2 was fun for a while, DAoC also pretty good stayed with it for a while, Shadowbane, tutorial was fun but after that it went down hill fast. AO was pretty good to just way to repetitive. Eq 1 still the best out there imo, tons to do, lots of content, decent story line, challenging raids, and overall pretty well rounded.
Personally its not being favored its just makes sense. Why shouldn't the hardest creatures/ events in the a Massive Multi-player game take a Many people to complete? Why should a soloer, or group have access to everything?
I like the thought of working for my progression to the new challenging content. Personally I hate to see when they open it up for all to come in. It cheapens the game and takes away that sense of accomplishment.
You come off sounding like some of the people we just booted from our guild. They want everything but dont want to have work for it. Everytime raid is called seeing people camping, or swaping over to alts. Then later they whine cause they don't have a key, flag, access, gear, and so on. If big guilds is not for you then you better find a mmo with other avenues of entertainment. Such as Tradeskills, Helping train and teach lower lvl players, Host riads for thsoe not wishing to be in the raiding guild bt would like a shot at some of the higher content. Or hey here is a odd idea Roleplay in a Roleplaying game lol. Well whatever play how you like and find the game that works best for yah.
Exactly. And unless you intended the game to be 'play for 1/2/6 months then abandon,' that sort of design is a failure for anyone who is not naturally attracted to the uberguilds.
I think that's a major dividing line. Most EQ fanbois seem to like uberguild favoritism; most old-school UO fanbois (like me) do not.
For me, Ultima Online was the best out there. I prefer what I guess is called the 'sandbox' approach - no devs handing you quests, just saying "Here's the world, make of it what you will."
When you do that, you get massively multiplayer without the need for Massive-Group Only content.
What work? Just join an uberguild, and let the leader of said uberguild do the work.
Maybe that's not what you do, but I'd be willing to bet well over half the folks in the uberguilds take that approach. Is that what you really want - a horde of 'team-mates' who are just there to access content they otherwise couldn't get to?
Doesn't their presence not only cheapen the 'work' you did, but add to it?
That's what Uberguild-Only content does.
No offence, but that gets a big "duh." I've got no illusions about convincing you that I'm right, since this is all just opinion about what makes the game enjoyable. I'm arguing here in hopes that the trend of MMO devs designing games around Uberguilds will not become universal, so that there *will* still be games that offer other avenues.
You've just touched apon my major pet-peeve in all RPGs: design concepts that force me to choose between being effective or being in-character. Uberguild Favoritism is just one of those concepts that does that.
What work? Just join an uberguild, and let the leader of said uberguild do the work.
Maybe that's not what you do, but I'd be willing to bet well over half the folks in the uberguilds take that approach. Is that what you really want - a horde of 'team-mates' who are just there to access content they otherwise couldn't get to?
Doesn't their presence not only cheapen the 'work' you did, but add to it?
That's what Uberguild-Only content does
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You must not have done ome of the hard raids, where one person not doing it right and whole raid wipes. Lots of what we do, you need everyone doing the correct thing or its not gonna happen. For example Vish raid, You got to pop eggs before they hatch , tank the main dragon, kill mana mob for mana refresh, take care of adds, if any one dies an add will spawn, you can not hurt the adds or it will wipe raid, aoe Death touch dot wher you have to find a target mob to say a select phrase to to get rid of it or you die, and add spawns. There is no way someone could just sit back a try to let the leader do all the work. There are many more raids like this where one person in wrong spot at the wrong time and raid is over.
Personally i liked UO for a while but found it rather dry and lacking content. But even still if i get bored of the raids there is lots of stuff i can find to do. just all depends on what your goal is.