Computer RPGs & age(ing) and (permanent) death

Reizla · June 2016

I'm busy converting the d20 Modern RPG into code for my upcoming RPG (no date set, so won't give any further information on that), and right now I'm on finishing the starting occupations. One of the prerequisites of them is AGE.

Now I'm wondering if age and aging in a computer RPG is desirable. While age itself doesn't do a lot, other than the looks of your character (which can be influenced at character creation as well), aging is a different thing. Basically, aging also would imply that your character could reach old age and thus at a certain moment die permanently.

While at it, permanent death in a computer RPG, is that desirable as well? Personally I think not, because you as player should be able to play through the game and when your character dies, there should be a way to resurrect it (even in d20 Modern) and not start from scratch again. Of course, the game can include some kind of inheritance system allowing your new character to gain most (or all) of the items from the dead character.

I'd love to see thoughts on age/aging and (permanent) character death in computer RPGs.

DKLond · June 2016

As with most things, it depends on the execution. If you implement these features in a way that's meaningful and supportive of the game design - then they can work.

It's all about what you think is worthwhile, I suppose.

Take hunger and thirst in RPGs, for instance. I tend to think these features are more frustrating than fun - but it depends on the game. For instance, I thought having "food" as a thing in Might and Magic 6 was stupid, and didn't really fit the overall game much, because it's very much a fast-moving combat-driven game. It wasn't "realistic" or immersive to the extent that such a feature actually helped the game improve.

But I do appreciate such things in games with the kind of immersion and atmosphere to properly support them. Like in Fallout, for instance, where such features have a place - and they add to the sensation of the survival struggle. Having to find food and pure water supports the overall point of the game, as it were.

It depends, is the only answer I can give you.

sunandshadow · June 2016

I'd tie age to level if you want aging at all, personally. It would really fir best with the story that way. And in that event there's no need for people to reach old age, they could reach max level at age 40 or something if you calibrate it that way.

Reizla · June 2016

sunandshadow said:

I'd tie age to level if you want aging at all, personally. It would really fir best with the story that way. And in that event there's no need for people to reach old age, they could reach max level at age 40 or something if you calibrate it that way.

What you say there has nothing to do with aging at all, but it's yet an other level included in the game...

DKLond said:

As with most things, it depends on the execution. If you implement these features in a way that's meaningful and supportive of the game design - then they can work.

It's all about what you think is worthwhile, I suppose.

Take hunger and thirst in RPGs, for instance. I tend to think these features are more frustrating than fun - but it depends on the game. For instance, I thought having "food" as a thing in Might and Magic 6 was stupid, and didn't really fit the overall game much, because it's very much a fast-moving combat-driven game. It wasn't "realistic" or immersive to the extent that such a feature actually helped the game improve.

But I do appreciate such things in games with the kind of immersion and atmosphere to properly support them. Like in Fallout, for instance, where such features have a place - and they add to the sensation of the survival struggle. Having to find food and pure water supports the overall point of the game, as it were.

It depends, is the only answer I can give you.

Think you kinda nailed it there. IF I'd implement aging (and possibly perm death) it should make sense in the game AND it should be implemented well. No use for perm death when a player has to start all over again. Instead there has to be a successor character that'll keep playing for you. Same for aging, it has to be of use, and even optionally let the character quit his adventuring days and become some sort of NPC that has lore to tell to the new character the player uses.

As for food & hunger, I think the way EQ2 has implemented it was a good way. It's not overly bothersome if you didn't use it, but it would give advantages if you did.

...looks like I have a lot to think about on how I'll implement aging & death to the game, but I think I'll come up with something interesting ;-)

cameltosis · June 2016

Ageing and death are two mechanics that I've personally not seen done well, but I've also not really played many games with it.

My prerequisite for having ageing in a game is that the game needs to last long enough for ageing to be appropriate. For the vast majority of games, this isn't the case - you can complete the average RPG in 50-100 hours of gameplay which isn't enough to really see ageing come into play.

For MMOs, it could definitely work. For perma-death, what I think I'd do is have ageing and upon character creation, set a random age of death. Then, each time you "die" during normal gameplay, reduce the age of death by a day.

So, lets say I create a 20yo toon, the RNG gives me a hidden age of death of 65. I'm a dumb player who loves charging in, so I die 3650 times during normal gameplay. This means my character would actually die (permadeath) at age 55. Lets say 1 month elapsed = 10 years aging, so my toon would be playable for 3.5 months before dying. If I got lucky on RNG plus not many deaths, I might last 6 months.

Another major proviso would be horizontal progression. If average toon lifespan was 4 months elapsed time, I do not want to have to level up again every 4 months! So, I'd want horizontal progression in place so that you can do most content right from the start (you just wouldn't be as diverse / specialised so some content would be too hard) and unlocking full range of abilities should be quick. There should also be a mechanism in place to "hand down" skills. For example, if I max out warrior with my first toon, perhaps the second one starts with 25% progress completed, third one 50% etc.

Or perhaps, if I choose to, let me set up some sort of training centre in game. So, I can create my new toons in advance and add them to my training centre and have it as a mini-management type thing. The more effort I spend in training, the more progression is unlocked on new toons. But, if I start training too early then my new toon might be quite old by the time I finally gain possession. Could be some fun micro-management / meta-gaming to training new toons etc.

thark · June 2016

It depends on what kind of game it's suppose to be.

If it's a super action packed game and more/less modern created for the day and age , it's obviously also not a very realistic game, then the idea of perma Death and/or hunger and thirst require ments only will slow down the gameplay and make it less fun. Not having hardcore features but wild and crazy gameplay will make sure the game is good, this is the most popular version right now.

But if you are making a realistic take on fantasy universe or World, then players will Think it's fun with such features and will also account for them . Combat most certainly has to be slower , (so that you have time to act and Think of the consequenses, basically the whole game has to be designed around these features. These features among many will see to that it's these that makes the game good.

Ramajama · June 2016

So are there any existing games that have implemented ageing and death at decent level at all? Just asking, never heard of one.

Cleffy · June 2016

I'm not into perma-death. Aging might be a difficult concept for an RPG. Usually an RPGs story is not multi-year. Even playing something like Fallout 4 on survival, I was no where near 1 year playtime when I was 1/4 way through. Food, drink, rest could be interesting to implement, but if it's too frequent an upkeep, it will be a turnoff.

Sovrath · June 2016

If there is a story purpose to aging then "sure" why not.

But otherwise "why"?

If your story takes place over a vast amount of time then obviously you will have to age your character.

Is this single player or multi-player? Is this an mmo? That also might help inform what you are doing.

Distopia · June 2016

Ramajama said:

So are there any existing games that have implemented ageing and death at decent level at all? Just asking, never heard of one.

Fable?

Sovrath · June 2016

Distopia said:

Ramajama said:

So are there any existing games that have implemented ageing and death at decent level at all? Just asking, never heard of one.

Fable?

Does fable actually age the character? I'm only familiar with the first game but I seem to remember that there are just slices of the character's life, one when the character is a boy and one when the character is an adult. I do know that one's alignment effects how npc's react to the character (at least on a superficial level) and how the character looks.

blotz · June 2016

you could have a look at https://chroniclesofelyria.com/ and see how they plan to do it

sunandshadow · June 2016

Reizla said:

sunandshadow said:

I'd tie age to level if you want aging at all, personally. It would really fir best with the story that way. And in that event there's no need for people to reach old age, they could reach max level at age 40 or something if you calibrate it that way.

What you say there has nothing to do with aging at all, but it's yet an other level included in the game...

I didn't specify how the aging part would be implemented, but that's not at all the same as saying it has nothing to do with aging.

One would assume a character's appearance would change with age, and their age would also unlock new abilities or possibly remove old ones. Characters in different age ranges might have a different set of self-buffs or stat bonuses, which might be further modified by class. A character's age could affect their personal interaction and reputation with NPC individuals and factions. There are a lot of interesting ways age could affect gameplay.

Reizla · June 2016

Sovrath said:

If there is a story purpose to aging then "sure" why not.

But otherwise "why"?

If your story takes place over a vast amount of time then obviously you will have to age your character.

Is this single player or multi-player? Is this an mmo? That also might help inform what you are doing.

The WHY is simple - it's part of the d20 rules and part of life. Only problem I'll bump into is how to implement it in a meaningful way...
For the type of RPG, it'll become a multi-player one with a persistent world. Not sure if it'll become a (large scale) MMORPG or that I'll allow players to setup a local server for their friends. It'll be open world for sure...

cameltosis said:

For MMOs, it could definitely work. For perma-death, what I think I'd do is have ageing and upon character creation, set a random age of death. Then, each time you "die" during normal gameplay, reduce the age of death by a day.

So, lets say I create a 20yo toon, the RNG gives me a hidden age of death of 65. I'm a dumb player who loves charging in, so I die 3650 times during normal gameplay. This means my character would actually die (permadeath) at age 55. Lets say 1 month elapsed = 10 years aging, so my toon would be playable for 3.5 months before dying. If I got lucky on RNG plus not many deaths, I might last 6 months.

Another major proviso would be horizontal progression. If average toon lifespan was 4 months elapsed time, I do not want to have to level up again every 4 months! So, I'd want horizontal progression in place so that you can do most content right from the start (you just wouldn't be as diverse / specialised so some content would be too hard) and unlocking full range of abilities should be quick. There should also be a mechanism in place to "hand down" skills. For example, if I max out warrior with my first toon, perhaps the second one starts with 25% progress completed, third one 50% etc.

Or perhaps, if I choose to, let me set up some sort of training centre in game. So, I can create my new toons in advance and add them to my training centre and have it as a mini-management type thing. The more effort I spend in training, the more progression is unlocked on new toons. But, if I start training too early then my new toon might be quite old by the time I finally gain possession. Could be some fun micro-management / meta-gaming to training new toons etc.

Damn, you've got some very good ideas there on aging & perm death! Now only see how I can incorporate these into the d20 RPG system.

The thought of retiring a PC at one point and become a (NPC) mentor for the 'follow up PC' already crossed my mind, and along with a lineage system it might work out just fine!

@All - nothing definitive here yet on the creation of the actual game. I'm still working on coding the d20 Modern core rules. And while I'm already pretty far in that project (around 75-80% of the core rules and I'll include FX & psionics later on as well), I still have to run 100s of tests to see how the core rules behave in code. This includes building a basic PC (which is nearly done), equip the PC (still have to start on it, but all gear is already coded) and combat/skill/feat usage (Like equip the PC, code there but nothing build around it yet).

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Computer RPGs & age(ing) and (permanent) death

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