Originally posted by jswish Now that the PS3 has been postponed till November, the DEV's have time to do some handshaking and baby kissing while they fine tune the PS3 version of SWG. LOL
ROFLMAO
nah, they might have been dragged out of the all you can eat buffet at the sushi and taco bar (well, it was Firday afternoon for them) but there's less hanshaking and babykissing going on, more like hand me a grenade and kiss your ass goodbye.
No kidding. The man deserves a medal of honor for that summary. As for what happened today - I am in utter shock. That IS the most information ever given out by people on the SOE payroll. Something really must have happened today and I seriously doubt it was due to the goodness of thier hearts. We are on the edge of something big.
Originally posted by azhrarn Chriscao may have actually caused a serious trader/entertainer exodus the likes of which has not been seen since the first CU hit. This one dev's lack of impulse control when it came to insulting both professions was just AMAZING.
Can you respost some of those tidbits, especially the underlined ones, for those of us without access to the SOE boards?
"I'm not going to get into the argument of what is and what isn't a SW game. I will, however, state for the record that there are some elements that more clearly fit into the SW universe than others. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that there are some elements that are objectively more SW than others.
Note that we're also revamping those features that players find fun but that may not clearly be iconic SW activities. In Publish 28, we start to adapt Entertainers"
"By your logic, everything that was included as a setting element in the movies should be a profession. Every character who was in the background, every potential action taking place in view, everything that was in the movie should be a role in the game.
I disagree. I think the focus of the movie was on a set of heroic characters who had likewise heroic professions. "
We're going to focus on the roles that were defined first, the roles that were clearly represented and important to the stories told. Again, this isn't an issue of what could potentially be put in a SW game. The SW universe is just too large and robust to represent in a single game. "
"Non-combat GCW? I'm not even sure what that means. I'd rather focus on the fighting first."
---------------------
ChrisCao, IMO, is the greatest danger non-combat SWG players face in regards to their continued existence. It's fairly apparent to me that if it were his game, "heroic professions" would be all there is available and that he's just tolerating non-combat professions because people seem to enjoy them. The only positive remark I caught that he made in re: to traders was:
Originally posted by admriker444 This is truly an act of desperation to fend off the rumors. And what saddens me is the community over there actually seems dumb enough to fall for it. "Well Gee wiz, Smedley says the rumors are false so they must be." Meanwhile, Smed was busted flat out lying on the spot with the whole expansion BS. Personally, I dont care what he or LA's Torres say at this point. Im more inclined to believe this site.. http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/sony/shakeup-at-sony-online-entertainment-162338.php They got their other "rumors" right. SOE was denying Koster leaving right up until today. And SOE / LA arent about to admit anything until they have some good news to counter it with. Im betting E3 will be when they announce SWG2 along with the cancellation of SWG1
OMG...you just don't stop do you. You know I'm one of the biggest SOE/LA and SWG critics on this board and VN boards and I have to say you are doing a dis-service to us players by constantly posting BS. I knew it was BS before and I will say it again - you post BS. I wouldn't doubt it if it was you that was the so called "mole" that waw mentioned at that one website. Call it female intuition, or whatever, but I smell a serious rat.
Guys we players don't have to resort to BS in order to further hurt SOE/LA's reputation, as some people do, because SOE/LA's NGE debacle and continued screwing up of the game is enough to hurt SOE/LA's reputation all on their own and they sure don't need ex-players spreading petty rumors trying to hurt SOE/LA further. That's makes us ex-players look like we're the ones that made SWG bad - and we're not the repsonsible party here - SOE/LA are. So let's leave it at that. Let them hang themselves.
What i dont understand is how they can call theirselves game developers and not put what is most important to an mmo ahead of what was most popular in the movies.
I think it was Chriscao that kept saying how certain classes were just not seen as a pivitol role in the movie therefore they cant be in the game. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Does he know he's working in an mmo and not a single person rpg repeat of the movies?
Maybe if im playing an rpg on the playstation, i might not want to play a trader because hey, there's no one to sell to. But jesus put it into an mmo perspective and you've got one of the most important roles in the game. How can they just complelety ignore the aspect that is most important in an mmo with depth (the social aspect) by delegating the crafting and entertainment and any other non-combat professions into some forgoten novelty.
That is why the nge sucks so much, apart from the terrible clicking combat, they took the depth heart and soul out of the game and replaced it with...... iconic starwarsyness..
Well, after reading that whole thread (and it's still going, just no Devs around) on the SWG forums and reading all the commentary on varies other forums especially here. I have to say that that's it for me. Screw SWG/SOE. I loved that game very much in it's previous non-screwed form. Regardless of whether Smed is a lying piece of shit or not. That games dead to me and I suspect many others.
I know many hold onto the dream that SWG will somehow be pulled from the event horizon and be prevented from falling into the Black Hole that is SOE's moronic Devs and their fearless leader Smed. But it isn't. SWG isn't going to Bioware regardless of how many times someone may say it on a forum or blog. Bioware is probably making Jade Empire Online (God help us) for all we know and until there is some kind of announcement you won't know. All the speculation in the world won't change it.
I've held onto the hope that SWG would be pulled from SOE or atleast have the Pre-CU or Pre-NGE system put back. This is not going to happen. They may add little do-dads from the previous system but we are not getting Pre-CU/Pre-NGE, ever. Yes, it's sad. SWG had so much going for it, but money talks and they felt that making SWG function for the lowest common denominator would pull more players in. The old esoteric skill system was obviously to hard for brainless twits to use (even though, somehow, the brainless twits still played then). And no, I'm not saying that the all people playing SWG now are brainless twits.
Anyhow, for me it's done. I can't constantly hold out hope for this game anymore. It just breaks my heart to much to read Smed's egotistical rediculous ramblings of how he justifies raping a game to death. Even though in post after post he acknowledges that how screwed up the game was and that it was a mistake to make the changes. That they screwed crafters, entertainers, and jedi. That the game is a fucking disaster now. He still pushes the crappy system and praises what could posiibly be the worst coders ever.
Good bye SWG. Goodbye SOE (You're never getting a cent from me ever again) and hello <insert next awesome MMO here (Anything but Vanguard)>.
Originally posted by phosphoros Well, after reading that whole thread (and it's still going, just no Devs around) on the SWG forums and reading all the commentary on varies other forums especially here. I have to say that that's it for me. Screw SWG/SOE. I loved that game very much in it's previous non-screwed form. Regardless of whether Smed is a lying piece of shit or not. That games dead to me and I suspect many others. I know many hold onto the dream that SWG will somehow be pulled from the event horizon and be prevented from falling into the Black Hole that is SOE's moronic Devs and their fearless leader Smed. But it isn't. SWG isn't going to Bioware regardless of how many times someone may say it on a forum or blog. Bioware is probably making Jade Empire Online (God help us) for all we know and until there is some kind of announcement you won't know. All the speculation in the world won't change it.I've held onto the hope that SWG would be pulled from SOE or atleast have the Pre-CU or Pre-NGE system put back. This is not going to happen. They may add little do-dads from the previous system but we are not getting Pre-CU/Pre-NGE, ever. Yes, it's sad. SWG had so much going for it, but money talks and they felt that making SWG function for the lowest common denominator would pull more players in. The old esoteric skill system was obviously to hard for brainless twits to use (even though, somehow, the brainless twits still played then). And no, I'm not saying that the all people playing SWG now are brainless twits. Anyhow, for me it's done. I can't constantly hold out hope for this game anymore. It just breaks my heart to much to read Smed's egotistical rediculous ramblings of how he justifies raping a game to death. Even though in post after post he acknowledges that how screwed up the game was and that it was a mistake to make the changes. That they screwed crafters, entertainers, and jedi. That the game is a fucking disaster now. He still pushes the crappy system and praises what could posiibly be the worst coders ever.Good bye SWG. Goodbye SOE (You're never getting a cent from me ever again) and hello <insert next awesome MMO here (Anything but Vanguard)>. Yay!
Yeah, my only regret is my account finally expired on March 20 instead of March 24. That would have been a nice thread to go out on.
Yeah, that was probably the DB for a lot of accounts right there. If what a lot of ents and traders are saying on the thread in the aftermath of the great dev speak-out is true, they won't have too many people left hanging around to complain about what they're going to be doing to those classes.
I'm no public relations genius, but I DO know enough not to tell a group of people MY BOSS just acknowledged were not only pissed off, but rightfully pissed off, that not only weren't they high on my priority list, but that they didn't really have a place in my game as I saw it. This is exactly what Chriscao did. In front of his boss. In every job I've ever held, that's what's known as a "career-limiting action", which is a euphamism for giving indisputable grounds to be fired on the spot.
Adding even more insult to injury was his choice of wording in the following choice tidbit:
"You're right. We haven't supported Traders as we should. This is a key part of our publish plan going forward."
Considering the mood of the traders in that thread at that point in time, this was a VERY poorly worded statement. Many of them took this to imply that traders not being supported properly by the devteam was not only intentional, but that they planned to continue on this path. When directly questioned on this translation of his statement, neither Chriscao, nor any of the red names would say anything that could even remotely be construed as constructive. What they got was (and I believe this to be correctly) translated into "Later for you. We have better things to work on first."
When one of the more tenacious trader/entertainer players bluntly asked:
How come with 9 professions then, you can't come up with a single quest for Traders or Entertainers in the game?
And no, we don't want to do combat quests, we want material suitable to our profession.
Again, you guys make these arbitrary decisions with no backing, and it just feels hugely insulting to those of us who were told "Your playstyle is valid, and we will get to you as soon as we can," which has been replaced by "You are not really that important in the scheme of things, we will deal with Jedi and Bounty Hunters first."
They have a game to enjoy right now. We don't.
There was no answer. Much later on it was implied that Entertainers should think themselves lucky for having as much content as they had already and it was stated that they were in more of a state of completeness than any of the other classes. Needless to be said, there was a great deal of tooth-gnashing following that.
In short, the reds stated by both omission and implication that it was just fine that entertainers and traders felt that they didn't have a game to enjoy while SOE continued to concentrate primarily on Jedi and BH as the usual.
I was, at this point, amazingly glad that I had never given into temptation and gone back to give the NGE another try. Because frankly, I think if I had, today's thread of red would have made my head explode.
Even at his most charming, Smed was dismissive and so far off the mark that I was astounded that the forums version of a lynching didn't happen. And Smed was far less insulting than Chriscao.
I'm not judging anyone or saying you folks don't have a right to be...but damn you guys are bitter. lol. I mean no disrespect.
Am I the only one that thought all that was kind of cool. I mean obviously something was going on to incite that sort of red attention...hopefully Smed is kicking those guys into gear. Yeah I know, that's doubtfull...but even if Smed is terrible at what he does and he's responsible for running SWG into the ground, I'd like to hang with him sometime cause he seems to have a good sense of humor.
I don't know what's going on over there, but something sure is. I gotta say though, I like most of the ideas the devs were talking about. Ideas they have NEVER let the community in on. I mean, why is it so fucking hard for them to just talk to players once in awhile, announce what they are working on, what they might work on, get some opinions. If they did what they did today on a regular basis I would still be playing probably. Granted, the game won't be fun until this stuff happens and that might be a long way off, but at least the expertise system goes in with pub 29 (and maybe the xp thing with 28?).
I don't know, I'm a bit gullible and optimistic. I hope for the best for this game. I wanted so badly to believe in all the rumors about bioware because I wanted this game to be good. Now I want to believe so badly that these ideas the dev's say they are implementing are the real deal so the game is good. Most likely neither will come true and this game will get worse and worse till it's completely dead. But I hope not.
Originally posted by SyrikRonove I'm not judging anyone or saying you folks don't have a right to be...but damn you guys are bitter. lol. I mean no disrespect.
I am not gonna flame you for speaking the truth. Yes, many of us are bitter. We spent a lot of time to build up characters and with no warning, the game was completely yank from underneath us, and the mis-representation has simply gotten worse.
Smedley's bussiness plan sucked. They were and are clearly wanting to keep subscribers. but they have gone about it completely the wrong way. If they truely have the _the_ product people would come to them for, then the should be able to make announcements such as the NGE months before doing deploying it knowing some would leave, but more would come. But, they know that don't have such a product so they engange in marketing management. And the situation was worse than they clearly predicted.
They also forget that MMO players, particularly ones that were drawn to the complexity of the original game, are likely to be more affluent and have 1-2 standard deviations of intelligence above the norm.
That means, basically, we smell BS, we taste BS, we see BS, we know it's BS and we call it BS.
Smedley and the DEVs, who are clearly no Havard Grads like Micheal Lynton, CEO of Sony Pictures, assumed they were smarter than his customer base.
Anyway, I appreciate the setiment in your post and I am glad you felt you could share it.
Either we end up being right about our ability to turn the ship around and make a game that's BETTER than it was before, or we were wrong and we fail.
Babe.. THAT SHIP HAS SAILED! Open your goddamn EYES smed!
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde Either we end up being right about our ability to turn the ship around and make a game that's BETTER than it was before, or we were wrong and we fail.
Babe.. THAT SHIP HAS SAILED! Open your goddamn EYES smed!
Shayde, I really respect ya man, but I gotta correct this.
Smedley still thinks he has a ship he can bring under control. The problem is, the ship is sinking, so there is no turning it around. And thus, there is no way to sail it any where... But unlike a respectible Captain, Smedley won't likely go down with his ship
Originally posted by SyrikRonove I'm not judging anyone or saying you folks don't have a right to be...but damn you guys are bitter. lol. I mean no disrespect.
I am not gonna flame you for speaking the truth. Yes, many of us are bitter. We spent a lot of time to build up characters and with no warning, the game was completely yank from underneath us, and the mis-representation has simply gotten worse.
Smedley's bussiness plan sucked. They were and are clearly wanting to keep subscribers. but they have gone about completely the wrong way. If they truely have the _the_ product people would come to them for, then the should be able to make announcements such as the NGE months before doing deploying it. But, they know that don't have such a product so they engange in marketing management.
They also forget that MMO players, particularly ones that were drawn to the complexity of the originaly game, are likely to be more affluent and have 1-2 standard deviations of intelligence above the norm.
That means, basically, we smell BS, we taste BS, we see BS, we know it's BS.
Smedley and the DEVs, who is clearly no Havard Grad like his boss Micheal Lynton, assumed he was smarter than his customer base.
Anyway, I appreciate the setiment in your post and I am glad you felt you could share it.
I hear ya man I do. I started SWG in June of '04. I had a Jedi, though it was a post pub 9 Village idiot lol. I've had all that yanked from me and I'm damn bitter too. Damn bitter. But, I gotta say, and please someone talk some sense into me...but I can understand Smed. Did he screw up? Absolutely in all the ways that he admitted today, and more. Did he do it on purpose to screw anyone over? Absolutely not. And I think he really drove that home today for me. I mean, I'm a forgiving dude by nature but still, the guy has a company to run. He obviously did what he thought was best for the game.
And to repeat, YES he royally screwed the pooch on it ALL. But I believe he was pretty much genuine in everything he said today. One thing that I thought was cool was his promotion of other games. BF2, Runescape and WoW come to mind. Not sure how many if any of those are produced by SOE but I don't think they are. He gave them free advertising lol. If nothing else he seemed like a real guy and admitted his mistakes, and yes, he's still going to push forward with those mistakes but I believe he's genuine in that he thinks it's better for the game that way. If that means that the game is going in a different direction than what interests me, I can be sad, but I won't hold it against him for doing his job (perhaps poorly) of making money for his company...at least in his opinion.
Basically one person in that huge thread said it well. I'd link but there's no way I'm wading through that thing again. They said something to the effect of, "Thanks Smed for at least letting us know the NGE is here to stay etc. Now I can quit hoping for the game to change I can make the decision that this game no longer interests me." I don't know, I'm still not gonna resub unless that stuff they were talking about gets put in soon and is actually fun, but I gained at least some respect for Smed and SOE today.
I feel as bad as the next guy/gal that the game I love is dead/dying, but really, I can't hold it against anyone for trying to make more money. That's the whole reason they made the game in the first place.
Syrik, no disrespect taken. I AM bitter. And I think I've just been joined by an entire new group of bitter, angry, disillusioned players.
Sure, some of what was revealed was marginally appealing. If I could even partway stand the FPSesque combat style, some of those ideas might even be kinda tantalyzing. But truth is, I literally, physically can't play under their new combat style. It hurts. Physically. I don't need to pay money to hasten a case of carpal tunnel that will eventually end my days as an IRL artist. Yes, I'm a Star Wars fangirl, but I just can't buy into a twitch-a-thon that doesn't incorporate virtual world elements into non-combat classes with the kind of reward and progression that OLD SWG once had but no longer can boast. And once these people continue their work of marginalizing and combatizing both Entertainer and Trader, neither profession will have anything that their current players want or need. And these are people who were far more easily satisfied than I was.
As someone who enjoyed both crafting and entertainment in SWG more than I have ever enjoyed anything in any game I have ever played, much of what was said by the reds was just atrocious. Chriscao in particular actually made me angry. After reading him, I really got to thinking that not only did this guy never actually "get" the noncombat aspects of SWG, he didn't "get" the movies either. This is patently a guy who missed 75% of Star Wars. Because 75% of Star Wars was character development, not combat. His responses and his statements offended me both as a lifetime Star Wars fan AND as an ex-SWG player because he dismissed nearly everything that I and many like me carried out of both experiences as important and inspirational.
So yes, I'm bitter. I hope you'll forgive me for being unable to forgive that.
Originally posted by Clackamas Originally posted by Shayde Either we end up being right about our ability to turn the ship around and make a game that's BETTER than it was before, or we were wrong and we fail.
Babe.. THAT SHIP HAS SAILED! Open your goddamn EYES smed!
Shayde, I really respect ya man, but I gotta correct this.
Smedley still thinks he has a ship he can bring under control. The problem is, the ship is sinking, so there is no turning it around. And thus, there is no way to sail it any where... But unlike a respectible Captain, Smedley won't likely go down with his ship
Nautical refrences aside..
What I'm saying is that he is saying that they're still waiting to see the results of what they have done. The results are staring them in the face. This was an abject failure. PERIOD.
And he's deluding himself to think in such a way.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Azhrarn, I forgive you hun And you bring to mind an interesting point I haven't seen mentioned yet. All the non-combat stuff you mentioned about old SWG (crafter, ents, etc) was a major reason a LOT of women played this game which is a demographic video games have been trying to capture forever. This new attitude of theirs to make SWG primarily combat/adventure based is killing their raport with nearly half of the worlds population...women. That aint a good thing
Originally posted by SyrikRonove Originally posted by ClackamasOriginally posted by SyrikRonoveI'm not judging anyone or saying you folks don't have a right to be...but damn you guys are bitter. lol. I mean no disrespect. ...but I can understand Smed. Did he screw up? Absolutely in all the ways that he admitted today, and more. Did he do it on purpose to screw anyone over? Absolutely not. And I think he really drove that home today for me. I mean, I'm a forgiving dude by nature but still, the guy has a company to run. He obviously did what he thought was best for the game. And to repeat, YES he royally screwed the pooch on it ALL.
Syrik
I certainly don't believe Smedley was malicious in the original intent. Certainly the most honest thing he has said, and I believe, is that he has a business to run and he has to have a business plan that works. And no one who really like the original game, complained that $15/month per character was too much despite the bugs in the game.
However, they clearly did screw over everyone purposely with the NGE because we didn't fit there business model using WoW as an example. And he continues to say how they are working the engineering of the game to make a viable business model out of SWG. He continues to deny that the disgruntled player base actually has the answers he needs. He failed to treat his player base as a asset to be used -- he treated us a liablity to be discarded. That that was wrong, that was intentional and it is now certainly personal for him and the outcome from him and the developers is now malicious.
Originally posted by SyrikRonoveI'm not judging anyone or saying you folks don't have a right to be...but damn you guys are bitter. lol. I mean no disrespect.
...but I can understand Smed. Did he screw up? Absolutely in all the ways that he admitted today, and more. Did he do it on purpose to screw anyone over? Absolutely not. And I think he really drove that home today for me. I mean, I'm a forgiving dude by nature but still, the guy has a company to run. He obviously did what he thought was best for the game. And to repeat, YES he royally screwed the pooch on it ALL.
Syrik
I certainly don't believe Smedley was malicious in the original intent. Certainly the most honest thing he has said, and I believe, is that he has a business to run and he has to have a business plan that works. And no one who really like the original game, complained that $15/month per character was too much despite the bugs in the game.
However, they clearly did screw over everyone purposely with the NGE because we didn't fit there business model using WoW as an example. And he continues to say how they are working the engineering of the game to make a viable business model out of SWG. He continues to deny that the disgruntled player base actually has the answers he needs. He failed to treat his player base as a asset to be used -- he treated us a liablity to be discarded. That that was wrong, that was intentional and it is now certainly personal for him and the outcome from him and the developers is now malicious.
Ok, I suppose technically I can conceed that they "purposely screwed the playerbase over". But I cannot agree that they did it maliciously or that any of their actions were malicious. They thought they needed a new game to survive, the side effect of that is that people got "screwed" out a lot of things. But in the end, it was not to hurt those people, nor is what they are doing now. Yes, we were and are being hurt, but the intent behind the hurtful actions is not to hurt us, merely a side effect for what, in their mind, was a better business plan. I can't fault them personally for that, even if I can fault their business decision.
[quote]Originally posted by Shayde [b][quote]Originally posted by Clackamas [b][quote]Originally posted by Shayde [b][quote][/b][/quote]
Nautical refrences aside..
What I'm saying is that he is saying that they're still waiting to see the results of what they have done. The results are staring them in the face. This was an abject failure. PERIOD.
And he's deluding himself to think in such a way.[/b][/quote]
We are on the same page I have been studing for the GRE/GMAT and so getting analogies correct is high on my list of personal deveoplment items. Sorry I was being a little too literal ......
Originally posted by SyrikRonove Azhrarn, I forgive you hun And you bring to mind an interesting point I haven't seen mentioned yet. All the non-combat stuff you mentioned about old SWG (crafter, ents, etc) was a major reason a LOT of women played this game which is a demographic video games have been trying to capture forever. This new attitude of theirs to make SWG primarily combat/adventure based is killing their raport with nearly half of the worlds population...women. That aint a good thing
Thanks.
About the women. There WERE a lot of us in SWG. More even than there were in AO, which had an unusually high number of female gamers subbed. Both of these games have or had many elements that members of my gender respond very well to without falling over onto the wrong side of the My Little Pony fence.
You see, women DO dig PvP, competing in lewtwars and the rest of those things most people traditionally assign to males, but we get tired of that very quickly if it isn't tempered by other, deeper and more esoteric content that many guys consider to be superfluous. We need both the adrenaline soaked rush of kicking someone's ass in PvP AND a completely unique and color-coordinated outfit. We need to compete AND socialize. We REQUIRE flexibility and the ability to personalize. And we STRONGLY object to being put in the back of the bus when it comes to our interests.
So the whole My Pretty Pony thing is more or less thoroughly insulting. We flocked to SWG because the game permitted us to do all the things we actually wanted to in a game, while being an integral and appreciated part of the player population. At one time, even Image Designers got a lot of respect and were valued by even the most mouthbreathing of leet dewds. But those days aren't just over, they're being bulldozed as parking space for a class of player we don't have much interest in becoming.
Originally posted by SyrikRonove Azhrarn, I forgive you hun And you bring to mind an interesting point I haven't seen mentioned yet. All the non-combat stuff you mentioned about old SWG (crafter, ents, etc) was a major reason a LOT of women played this game which is a demographic video games have been trying to capture forever. This new attitude of theirs to make SWG primarily combat/adventure based is killing their raport with nearly half of the worlds population...women. That aint a good thing
Thanks.
About the women. There WERE a lot of us in SWG. More even than there were in AO, which had an unusually high number of female gamers subbed. Both of these games have or had many elements that members of my gender respond very well to without falling over onto the wrong side of the My Little Pony fence.
You see, women DO dig PvP, competing in lewtwars and the rest of those things most people traditionally assign to males, but we get tired of that very quickly if it isn't tempered by other, deeper and more esoteric content that many guys consider to be superfluous. We need both the adrenaline soaked rush of kicking someone's ass in PvP AND a completely unique and color-coordinated outfit. We need to compete AND socialize. We REQUIRE flexibility and the ability to personalize. And we STRONGLY object to being put in the back of the bus when it comes to our interests.
So the whole My Pretty Pony thing is more or less thoroughly insulting. We flocked to SWG because the game permitted us to do all the things we actually wanted to in a game, while being an integral and appreciated part of the player population. At one time, even Image Designers got a lot of respect and were valued by even the most mouthbreathing of leet dewds. But those days aren't just over, they're being bulldozed as parking space for a class of player we don't have much interest in becoming.
Missed demographic indeed.
You sound like my sister. She loved SWG because of the flexible skill based system that allowed her to kick ass as a TKM and then go to a cantina and do some tattoo work on her friends.
And she loved dabbling in clothing. Her best friend became the best known tailor on eclipse and together they ran a huge clothing store that was legendary. I used to go there from time to time and I was always amazed to see so many in there shopping like it was a real mall.
I found myself appreciating the fact that SWG was the only MMO game around where combat wasnt 100% of the gameplay's focus. And now its all gone.
And whats worse, most gamers dont realize such an animal can exist. Whenever I try a new MMO and ask the question "is there anything else besides combat" I get the same response "what the hell else would there be ?"
I sure miss my MDE / MA / 4xxx merchant / 2xxx musician / nov armorsmith
So the whole My Pretty Pony thing is more or less thoroughly insulting.
Was this directed at me? If so I apologize for the misunderstanding, that's not the tag I was trying to pin on female gamers. I was simply trying to say that the non combat areas of the game were an important aspect in bringing a lot of women to SWG. I don't think that's ALL they liked.
Comments
ROFLMAO
nah, they might have been dragged out of the all you can eat buffet at the sushi and taco bar (well, it was Firday afternoon for them) but there's less hanshaking and babykissing going on, more like hand me a grenade and kiss your ass goodbye.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=636613
A nice summary by Malica.
No kidding. The man deserves a medal of honor for that summary. As for what happened today - I am in utter shock. That IS the most information ever given out by people on the SOE payroll. Something really must have happened today and I seriously doubt it was due to the goodness of thier hearts. We are on the edge of something big.
Double post FTW
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=635427#M635427
"I'm not going to get into the argument of what is and what isn't a SW game. I will, however, state for the record that there are some elements that more clearly fit into the SW universe than others. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that there are some elements that are objectively more SW than others.
Example: Jedi vs. milking."
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=635455#M635455
Q. You believe Entertaining is a non-sw activity?
"Yes. The Entertainer in the movie got eaten.
Note that we're also revamping those features that players find fun but that may not clearly be iconic SW activities. In Publish 28, we start to adapt Entertainers"
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=635689#M635689
"I'll agree with you here. Droids are a key part of the SW fantasy. But droid engineers are not."
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=635793#M635793
"By your logic, everything that was included as a setting element in the movies should be a profession. Every character who was in the background, every potential action taking place in view, everything that was in the movie should be a role in the game.
I disagree. I think the focus of the movie was on a set of heroic characters who had likewise heroic professions. "
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=635822#M635822
"'Droid Engineers were IMPLIED. '
We're going to focus on the roles that were defined first, the roles that were clearly represented and important to the stories told. Again, this isn't an issue of what could potentially be put in a SW game. The SW universe is just too large and robust to represent in a single game. "
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=635855#M635855
"Non-combat GCW? I'm not even sure what that means. I'd rather focus on the fighting first."
---------------------
ChrisCao, IMO, is the greatest danger non-combat SWG players face in regards to their continued existence. It's fairly apparent to me that if it were his game, "heroic professions" would be all there is available and that he's just tolerating non-combat professions because people seem to enjoy them. The only positive remark I caught that he made in re: to traders was:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=635834#M635834
"You're right. We haven't supported Traders as we should. This is a key part of our publish plan going forward."
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
OMG...you just don't stop do you. You know I'm one of the biggest SOE/LA and SWG critics on this board and VN boards and I have to say you are doing a dis-service to us players by constantly posting BS. I knew it was BS before and I will say it again - you post BS. I wouldn't doubt it if it was you that was the so called "mole" that waw mentioned at that one website. Call it female intuition, or whatever, but I smell a serious rat.
Guys we players don't have to resort to BS in order to further hurt SOE/LA's reputation, as some people do, because SOE/LA's NGE debacle and continued screwing up of the game is enough to hurt SOE/LA's reputation all on their own and they sure don't need ex-players spreading petty rumors trying to hurt SOE/LA further. That's makes us ex-players look like we're the ones that made SWG bad - and we're not the repsonsible party here - SOE/LA are. So let's leave it at that. Let them hang themselves.
What i dont understand is how they can call theirselves game developers and not put what is most important to an mmo ahead of what was most popular in the movies.
I think it was Chriscao that kept saying how certain classes were just not seen as a pivitol role in the movie therefore they cant be in the game. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Does he know he's working in an mmo and not a single person rpg repeat of the movies?
Maybe if im playing an rpg on the playstation, i might not want to play a trader because hey, there's no one to sell to. But jesus put it into an mmo perspective and you've got one of the most important roles in the game. How can they just complelety ignore the aspect that is most important in an mmo with depth (the social aspect) by delegating the crafting and entertainment and any other non-combat professions into some forgoten novelty.
That is why the nge sucks so much, apart from the terrible clicking combat, they took the depth heart and soul out of the game and replaced it with...... iconic starwarsyness..
For the Horde!
Well, after reading that whole thread (and it's still going, just no Devs around) on the SWG forums and reading all the commentary on varies other forums especially here.
I have to say that that's it for me. Screw SWG/SOE. I loved that game very much in it's previous non-screwed form. Regardless of whether Smed is a lying piece of shit or not. That games dead to me and I suspect many others.
I know many hold onto the dream that SWG will somehow be pulled from the event horizon and be prevented from falling into the Black Hole that is SOE's moronic Devs and their fearless leader Smed.
But it isn't. SWG isn't going to Bioware regardless of how many times someone may say it on a forum or blog. Bioware is probably making Jade Empire Online (God help us) for all we know and until there is some kind of announcement you won't know. All the speculation in the world won't change it.
I've held onto the hope that SWG would be pulled from SOE or atleast have the Pre-CU or Pre-NGE system put back. This is not going to happen. They may add little do-dads from the previous system but we are not getting Pre-CU/Pre-NGE, ever. Yes, it's sad. SWG had so much going for it, but money talks and they felt that making SWG function for the lowest common denominator would pull more players in. The old esoteric skill system was obviously to hard for brainless twits to use (even though, somehow, the brainless twits still played then). And no, I'm not saying that the all people playing SWG now are brainless twits.
Anyhow, for me it's done. I can't constantly hold out hope for this game anymore. It just breaks my heart to much to read Smed's egotistical rediculous ramblings of how he justifies raping a game to death.
Even though in post after post he acknowledges that how screwed up the game was and that it was a mistake to make the changes. That they screwed crafters, entertainers, and jedi. That the game is a fucking disaster now. He still pushes the crappy system and praises what could posiibly be the worst coders ever.
Good bye SWG. Goodbye SOE (You're never getting a cent from me ever again) and hello <insert next awesome MMO here (Anything but Vanguard)>.
Yay!
Yeah, my only regret is my account finally expired on March 20 instead of March 24. That would have been a nice thread to go out on.
Yeah, that was probably the DB for a lot of accounts right there. If what a lot of ents and traders are saying on the thread in the aftermath of the great dev speak-out is true, they won't have too many people left hanging around to complain about what they're going to be doing to those classes.
I'm no public relations genius, but I DO know enough not to tell a group of people MY BOSS just acknowledged were not only pissed off, but rightfully pissed off, that not only weren't they high on my priority list, but that they didn't really have a place in my game as I saw it. This is exactly what Chriscao did. In front of his boss. In every job I've ever held, that's what's known as a "career-limiting action", which is a euphamism for giving indisputable grounds to be fired on the spot.
Adding even more insult to injury was his choice of wording in the following choice tidbit:
"You're right. We haven't supported Traders as we should. This is a key part of our publish plan going forward."
Considering the mood of the traders in that thread at that point in time, this was a VERY poorly worded statement. Many of them took this to imply that traders not being supported properly by the devteam was not only intentional, but that they planned to continue on this path. When directly questioned on this translation of his statement, neither Chriscao, nor any of the red names would say anything that could even remotely be construed as constructive. What they got was (and I believe this to be correctly) translated into "Later for you. We have better things to work on first."
When one of the more tenacious trader/entertainer players bluntly asked:
How come with 9 professions then, you can't come up with a single quest for Traders or Entertainers in the game?
And no, we don't want to do combat quests, we want material suitable to our profession.
Again, you guys make these arbitrary decisions with no backing, and it just feels hugely insulting to those of us who were told "Your playstyle is valid, and we will get to you as soon as we can," which has been replaced by "You are not really that important in the scheme of things, we will deal with Jedi and Bounty Hunters first."
They have a game to enjoy right now. We don't.
There was no answer. Much later on it was implied that Entertainers should think themselves lucky for having as much content as they had already and it was stated that they were in more of a state of completeness than any of the other classes. Needless to be said, there was a great deal of tooth-gnashing following that.
In short, the reds stated by both omission and implication that it was just fine that entertainers and traders felt that they didn't have a game to enjoy while SOE continued to concentrate primarily on Jedi and BH as the usual.
I was, at this point, amazingly glad that I had never given into temptation and gone back to give the NGE another try. Because frankly, I think if I had, today's thread of red would have made my head explode.
Even at his most charming, Smed was dismissive and so far off the mark that I was astounded that the forums version of a lynching didn't happen. And Smed was far less insulting than Chriscao.
I think Chriscao kicks puppies as a hobby.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
I'm not judging anyone or saying you folks don't have a right to be...but damn you guys are bitter. lol. I mean no disrespect.
Am I the only one that thought all that was kind of cool. I mean obviously something was going on to incite that sort of red attention...hopefully Smed is kicking those guys into gear. Yeah I know, that's doubtfull...but even if Smed is terrible at what he does and he's responsible for running SWG into the ground, I'd like to hang with him sometime cause he seems to have a good sense of humor.
I don't know what's going on over there, but something sure is. I gotta say though, I like most of the ideas the devs were talking about. Ideas they have NEVER let the community in on. I mean, why is it so fucking hard for them to just talk to players once in awhile, announce what they are working on, what they might work on, get some opinions. If they did what they did today on a regular basis I would still be playing probably. Granted, the game won't be fun until this stuff happens and that might be a long way off, but at least the expertise system goes in with pub 29 (and maybe the xp thing with 28?).
I don't know, I'm a bit gullible and optimistic. I hope for the best for this game. I wanted so badly to believe in all the rumors about bioware because I wanted this game to be good. Now I want to believe so badly that these ideas the dev's say they are implementing are the real deal so the game is good. Most likely neither will come true and this game will get worse and worse till it's completely dead. But I hope not.
Syrik
I am not gonna flame you for speaking the truth. Yes, many of us are bitter. We spent a lot of time to build up characters and with no warning, the game was completely yank from underneath us, and the mis-representation has simply gotten worse.
Smedley's bussiness plan sucked. They were and are clearly wanting to keep subscribers. but they have gone about it completely the wrong way. If they truely have the _the_ product people would come to them for, then the should be able to make announcements such as the NGE months before doing deploying it knowing some would leave, but more would come. But, they know that don't have such a product so they engange in marketing management. And the situation was worse than they clearly predicted.
They also forget that MMO players, particularly ones that were drawn to the complexity of the original game, are likely to be more affluent and have 1-2 standard deviations of intelligence above the norm.
That means, basically, we smell BS, we taste BS, we see BS, we know it's BS and we call it BS.
Smedley and the DEVs, who are clearly no Havard Grads like Micheal Lynton, CEO of Sony Pictures, assumed they were smarter than his customer base.
Anyway, I appreciate the setiment in your post and I am glad you felt you could share it.
Babe.. THAT SHIP HAS SAILED! Open your goddamn EYES smed!
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Babe.. THAT SHIP HAS SAILED! Open your goddamn EYES smed!
Shayde, I really respect ya man, but I gotta correct this.
Smedley still thinks he has a ship he can bring under control. The problem is, the ship is sinking, so there is no turning it around. And thus, there is no way to sail it any where... But unlike a respectible Captain, Smedley won't likely go down with his ship
I am not gonna flame you for speaking the truth. Yes, many of us are bitter. We spent a lot of time to build up characters and with no warning, the game was completely yank from underneath us, and the mis-representation has simply gotten worse.
Smedley's bussiness plan sucked. They were and are clearly wanting to keep subscribers. but they have gone about completely the wrong way. If they truely have the _the_ product people would come to them for, then the should be able to make announcements such as the NGE months before doing deploying it. But, they know that don't have such a product so they engange in marketing management.
They also forget that MMO players, particularly ones that were drawn to the complexity of the originaly game, are likely to be more affluent and have 1-2 standard deviations of intelligence above the norm.
That means, basically, we smell BS, we taste BS, we see BS, we know it's BS.
Smedley and the DEVs, who is clearly no Havard Grad like his boss Micheal Lynton, assumed he was smarter than his customer base.
Anyway, I appreciate the setiment in your post and I am glad you felt you could share it.
I hear ya man I do. I started SWG in June of '04. I had a Jedi, though it was a post pub 9 Village idiot lol. I've had all that yanked from me and I'm damn bitter too. Damn bitter. But, I gotta say, and please someone talk some sense into me...but I can understand Smed. Did he screw up? Absolutely in all the ways that he admitted today, and more. Did he do it on purpose to screw anyone over? Absolutely not. And I think he really drove that home today for me. I mean, I'm a forgiving dude by nature but still, the guy has a company to run. He obviously did what he thought was best for the game.
And to repeat, YES he royally screwed the pooch on it ALL. But I believe he was pretty much genuine in everything he said today. One thing that I thought was cool was his promotion of other games. BF2, Runescape and WoW come to mind. Not sure how many if any of those are produced by SOE but I don't think they are. He gave them free advertising lol. If nothing else he seemed like a real guy and admitted his mistakes, and yes, he's still going to push forward with those mistakes but I believe he's genuine in that he thinks it's better for the game that way. If that means that the game is going in a different direction than what interests me, I can be sad, but I won't hold it against him for doing his job (perhaps poorly) of making money for his company...at least in his opinion.
Basically one person in that huge thread said it well. I'd link but there's no way I'm wading through that thing again. They said something to the effect of, "Thanks Smed for at least letting us know the NGE is here to stay etc. Now I can quit hoping for the game to change I can make the decision that this game no longer interests me." I don't know, I'm still not gonna resub unless that stuff they were talking about gets put in soon and is actually fun, but I gained at least some respect for Smed and SOE today.
I feel as bad as the next guy/gal that the game I love is dead/dying, but really, I can't hold it against anyone for trying to make more money. That's the whole reason they made the game in the first place.
Syrik
Syrik, no disrespect taken. I AM bitter. And I think I've just been joined by an entire new group of bitter, angry, disillusioned players.
Sure, some of what was revealed was marginally appealing. If I could even partway stand the FPSesque combat style, some of those ideas might even be kinda tantalyzing. But truth is, I literally, physically can't play under their new combat style. It hurts. Physically. I don't need to pay money to hasten a case of carpal tunnel that will eventually end my days as an IRL artist. Yes, I'm a Star Wars fangirl, but I just can't buy into a twitch-a-thon that doesn't incorporate virtual world elements into non-combat classes with the kind of reward and progression that OLD SWG once had but no longer can boast. And once these people continue their work of marginalizing and combatizing both Entertainer and Trader, neither profession will have anything that their current players want or need. And these are people who were far more easily satisfied than I was.
As someone who enjoyed both crafting and entertainment in SWG more than I have ever enjoyed anything in any game I have ever played, much of what was said by the reds was just atrocious. Chriscao in particular actually made me angry. After reading him, I really got to thinking that not only did this guy never actually "get" the noncombat aspects of SWG, he didn't "get" the movies either. This is patently a guy who missed 75% of Star Wars. Because 75% of Star Wars was character development, not combat. His responses and his statements offended me both as a lifetime Star Wars fan AND as an ex-SWG player because he dismissed nearly everything that I and many like me carried out of both experiences as important and inspirational.
So yes, I'm bitter. I hope you'll forgive me for being unable to forgive that.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
Babe.. THAT SHIP HAS SAILED! Open your goddamn EYES smed!
Shayde, I really respect ya man, but I gotta correct this.
Smedley still thinks he has a ship he can bring under control. The problem is, the ship is sinking, so there is no turning it around. And thus, there is no way to sail it any where... But unlike a respectible Captain, Smedley won't likely go down with his ship
Nautical refrences aside..
What I'm saying is that he is saying that they're still waiting to see the results of what they have done. The results are staring them in the face. This was an abject failure. PERIOD.
And he's deluding himself to think in such a way.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I certainly don't believe Smedley was malicious in the original intent. Certainly the most honest thing he has said, and I believe, is that he has a business to run and he has to have a business plan that works. And no one who really like the original game, complained that $15/month per character was too much despite the bugs in the game.
However, they clearly did screw over everyone purposely with the NGE because we didn't fit there business model using WoW as an example. And he continues to say how they are working the engineering of the game to make a viable business model out of SWG. He continues to deny that the disgruntled player base actually has the answers he needs. He failed to treat his player base as a asset to be used -- he treated us a liablity to be discarded. That that was wrong, that was intentional and it is now certainly personal for him and the outcome from him and the developers is now malicious.
I certainly don't believe Smedley was malicious in the original intent. Certainly the most honest thing he has said, and I believe, is that he has a business to run and he has to have a business plan that works. And no one who really like the original game, complained that $15/month per character was too much despite the bugs in the game.
However, they clearly did screw over everyone purposely with the NGE because we didn't fit there business model using WoW as an example. And he continues to say how they are working the engineering of the game to make a viable business model out of SWG. He continues to deny that the disgruntled player base actually has the answers he needs. He failed to treat his player base as a asset to be used -- he treated us a liablity to be discarded. That that was wrong, that was intentional and it is now certainly personal for him and the outcome from him and the developers is now malicious.
Ok, I suppose technically I can conceed that they "purposely screwed the playerbase over". But I cannot agree that they did it maliciously or that any of their actions were malicious. They thought they needed a new game to survive, the side effect of that is that people got "screwed" out a lot of things. But in the end, it was not to hurt those people, nor is what they are doing now. Yes, we were and are being hurt, but the intent behind the hurtful actions is not to hurt us, merely a side effect for what, in their mind, was a better business plan. I can't fault them personally for that, even if I can fault their business decision.
Syrik
[quote]Originally posted by Shayde
[b][quote]Originally posted by Clackamas
[b][quote]Originally posted by Shayde
[b][quote][/b][/quote]
Nautical refrences aside..
What I'm saying is that he is saying that they're still waiting to see the results of what they have done. The results are staring them in the face. This was an abject failure. PERIOD.
And he's deluding himself to think in such a way.[/b][/quote]
We are on the same page
I have been studing for the GRE/GMAT and so getting analogies correct is high on my list of personal deveoplment items. Sorry I was being a little too literal ......
Thanks.
About the women. There WERE a lot of us in SWG. More even than there were in AO, which had an unusually high number of female gamers subbed. Both of these games have or had many elements that members of my gender respond very well to without falling over onto the wrong side of the My Little Pony fence.
You see, women DO dig PvP, competing in lewtwars and the rest of those things most people traditionally assign to males, but we get tired of that very quickly if it isn't tempered by other, deeper and more esoteric content that many guys consider to be superfluous. We need both the adrenaline soaked rush of kicking someone's ass in PvP AND a completely unique and color-coordinated outfit. We need to compete AND socialize. We REQUIRE flexibility and the ability to personalize. And we STRONGLY object to being put in the back of the bus when it comes to our interests.
So the whole My Pretty Pony thing is more or less thoroughly insulting. We flocked to SWG because the game permitted us to do all the things we actually wanted to in a game, while being an integral and appreciated part of the player population. At one time, even Image Designers got a lot of respect and were valued by even the most mouthbreathing of leet dewds. But those days aren't just over, they're being bulldozed as parking space for a class of player we don't have much interest in becoming.
Missed demographic indeed.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
Thanks.
About the women. There WERE a lot of us in SWG. More even than there were in AO, which had an unusually high number of female gamers subbed. Both of these games have or had many elements that members of my gender respond very well to without falling over onto the wrong side of the My Little Pony fence.
You see, women DO dig PvP, competing in lewtwars and the rest of those things most people traditionally assign to males, but we get tired of that very quickly if it isn't tempered by other, deeper and more esoteric content that many guys consider to be superfluous. We need both the adrenaline soaked rush of kicking someone's ass in PvP AND a completely unique and color-coordinated outfit. We need to compete AND socialize. We REQUIRE flexibility and the ability to personalize. And we STRONGLY object to being put in the back of the bus when it comes to our interests.
So the whole My Pretty Pony thing is more or less thoroughly insulting. We flocked to SWG because the game permitted us to do all the things we actually wanted to in a game, while being an integral and appreciated part of the player population. At one time, even Image Designers got a lot of respect and were valued by even the most mouthbreathing of leet dewds. But those days aren't just over, they're being bulldozed as parking space for a class of player we don't have much interest in becoming.
Missed demographic indeed.
You sound like my sister. She loved SWG because of the flexible skill based system that allowed her to kick ass as a TKM and then go to a cantina and do some tattoo work on her friends.
And she loved dabbling in clothing. Her best friend became the best known tailor on eclipse and together they ran a huge clothing store that was legendary. I used to go there from time to time and I was always amazed to see so many in there shopping like it was a real mall.
I found myself appreciating the fact that SWG was the only MMO game around where combat wasnt 100% of the gameplay's focus. And now its all gone.
And whats worse, most gamers dont realize such an animal can exist. Whenever I try a new MMO and ask the question "is there anything else besides combat" I get the same response "what the hell else would there be ?"
I sure miss my MDE / MA / 4xxx merchant / 2xxx musician / nov armorsmith
Was this directed at me? If so I apologize for the misunderstanding, that's not the tag I was trying to pin on female gamers. I was simply trying to say that the non combat areas of the game were an important aspect in bringing a lot of women to SWG. I don't think that's ALL they liked.
hmm smed has like 128 posts.... sad part is it looks like most of them are from today XD
heh its interesting to see him post so much... they must be getting desperate for players if the SOE devs/other staff are actually listening :P