Why not? Not chill/relaxed enough? That'd be the nr 1 reason ofc.. for me at least. Getting PKed means you're risking a heartattack(no matter the age)..
uh well sometimes i play while drunk.. and i don't want to come back to find my characters dead with 0 gear etc the day after :P
This was the good thing about the early days of MMORPGs. There were no other options so if you chose to play there were harsh death penalties. Those who made it through felt something of accomplishment. I don't think many people would care to experience such a game now. Especially the main component of today's games which is very casual mainstream.
To be honest,I cannot argue for any "Extreme" penalty at death..as a player being asked by devs i'd probably say what DAOWAce said:
"Maybe if I was a kid again when gaming was new.
Don't have the
time or patience for anything like that nowadays. Too many games and too
little time to play them. I now find games that take away things when
you lose are just extremely disrespectful to your time, barring some
exceptions (roguelikes)."
But if I were to chose between 0 death-penalty(WoW) and too much(old Tibia) i'd probably pick too much..
And yes, I was one of the lucky few that was lucky enough to PK more than I got PKed myself ofcourse. As said, it got extremely competitive and "power-abuse" was the norm. So yeah, ofcourse the majority of players(the losers in the battle for power ) want less/no death-penalty and in the end it's the $$(majority of players) the devs listen to.
www.Argardh.com F2P, Open-source with low-req/graphic MMORPG launching Open-Beta on 23rd August. Based on Tibia 8.6 Follow us: www.facebook.com/Argardh Youtube-channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNmxHWGpO790r-4wn4AEeSA
I recommend the OP watch Balancing an MMO Ecosystem - Getting a Mix of Player Types - Extra Credits. Tibia was a Killer friendly game, because it prayed on Achievers. This is explained in the video. The OP is a real world example of the facts expressed in the video. I hope everyone who watches this video enjoys it and possibly learns something.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I recommend the OP watch Balancing an MMO Ecosystem - Getting a Mix of Player Types - Extra Credits. Tibia was a Killer friendly game, because it prayed on Achievers. This is explained in the video. The OP is a real world example of the facts expressed in the video. I hope everyone who watches this video enjoys it and possibly learns something.
Nice video. Very applyable to Tibia. Killers abused and lived on achievers and all other kind of players and to a really extreme extent. As said power-abuse was more or less norm for the mightiest 1-3 guilds(But no, not me mate. I was a pureblooded Killer The "power-abuse" was more Guildbased and wasnt so much about killing as it was about gaining worship and blackmailing people.. ) so in many ways everyone in the top 1-3 guilds were basically living off the money and energy the bottom 95% provided.
Today though, it's 99% against the 1% of devs.. as I said in a previous post it's the developers/producers market. Players pay for everything even if its real shit.. they won't know it until they've tasted it(ah right, the Demo-thread)
www.Argardh.com F2P, Open-source with low-req/graphic MMORPG launching Open-Beta on 23rd August. Based on Tibia 8.6 Follow us: www.facebook.com/Argardh Youtube-channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNmxHWGpO790r-4wn4AEeSA
It's meaningful and fun group activities that create living communities. Harsh negative reinforcement has nothing to do with it.
Someone has never understood the purpose of hazing and what results from forcing a group of unconnected strangers to face and survive negative reinforcement.
You build amazingly strong bonds and loyalty with it. Works in MMORPGs as well, see EVE.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
xp/level loss is fine. Item loss is a non-starter. Even item degradation with eventual item death is a non-starter. Item degradation with repair is possible so long as the repair is 100% and the item is never actually destroyed.
Maybe that's why Tibia had it to start with.. they knew the 100 players they first started with had to make strong bonds and engage personal vendettas in order to keep playing.. while "positive reinforcement" was probably harder to play with using graphics of the 70s(they had really crappy graphics and they started same time as Diablo came.. a year before/after. Dibalo being a game with excellent graphic).
www.Argardh.com F2P, Open-source with low-req/graphic MMORPG launching Open-Beta on 23rd August. Based on Tibia 8.6 Follow us: www.facebook.com/Argardh Youtube-channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNmxHWGpO790r-4wn4AEeSA
Having started MMOs when there were death penalties and item loss, I admit they made the games challenging but on the whole I don't really miss them. However I see no reason why games couldn't have a hardcore mode or even server for those players who enjoy the extra challenge.
Like you I started when MMORPGs had consequences for death, which is a big factor why I play EVE today.
The key is getting the risk vs the reward correct and making sure the player has a lot of control over the risk they take on.
I feel CCP has done the best in this regard, rewarding players for smart game play and punishing (sometimes severely) for mistakes.
Others will disagree as we all have varying tolerance levels for discomfort and challenge, and all are not looking for the same thing.
In the OPS Tibia example no way do I want to play that, a bit too much pain in that model, but I do agree it builds a different sort of community when there are consequences viewed as more than just "its only pixels"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
the most excirement , edge my fuggin seat fun i have ever had in any game all came in games with death penalties that matter...... UO , AC, EQ ... Really brings the danger and immersion to a much more enjoyable lvl when there is something on the line ... Most MMos today are boring because .. ... There is no risk ......
It's meaningful and fun group activities that create living communities. Harsh negative reinforcement has nothing to do with it.
Someone has never understood the purpose of hazing and what results from forcing a group of unconnected strangers to face and survive negative reinforcement.
You build amazingly strong bonds and loyalty with it. Works in MMORPGs as well, see EVE.
You're confusing a boring game mechanic from the old sub days designed simply to slow down advancement with some sort of bonding through shared misery.
Who exactly are you bonding with when you are losing progression due to a solo death brought on by a lag spike?
You bond because you group and share experiences, not because those experiences are negative or positive but because they are meaningful or difficult to accomplish. Harsh death penalties doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's meaningful and fun group activities that create living communities. Harsh negative reinforcement has nothing to do with it.
Someone has never understood the purpose of hazing and what results from forcing a group of unconnected strangers to face and survive negative reinforcement.
You build amazingly strong bonds and loyalty with it. Works in MMORPGs as well, see EVE.
You're confusing a boring game mechanic from the old sub days designed simply to slow down advancement with some sort of bonding through shared misery.
Who exactly are you bonding with when you are losing progression due to a solo death brought on by a lag spike?
You bond because you group and share experiences, not because those experiences are negative or positive but because they are meaningful or difficult to accomplish. Harsh death penalties doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.
I think part of this is that only a few people will make it to the top. It's been explained before, but there is more to it than a lag spike. If execution level isn't at a certain point you won't progress. It's a hard truth that few people will accept IMO.
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
seriously man .. wtf , if a person is afraid do try some content in a video game because your pixels might die , i would wonder how they can ever to succeed at any thing at all in life .. .. Lol scared of game content .. wow words cant describe ....
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
This is true, but it also has the effect of making things more valuable and exciting. If only a few people have dared to venture to and complete x area then it's something that is talked about in game and those players who did it are admired and sought after for advice. If everyone can do it then there is no excitement there.
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
seriously man .. wtf , if a person is afraid do try some content in a video game because your pixels might die , i would wonder how they can ever to succeed at any thing at all in life .. .. Lol scared of game content .. wow words cant describe ....
try some pvp. the second you got the upper hand people will run away as if they'd die IRL if you killed them in game. now slap these penalties onto that and watch what happens.
Oh yes i am all for extreme penalties however i am not a big fan of combat direction that i am seeing for example FFXIV or even WS.
What i don't like is sequences,linear combat where you remember a sequence then the combat becomes trivial.I also do NOT like needing special gear or tier of gear to win a battle,i want combat to be competitive but not ridiculously hard,just keep it challenging and fun. I NEVER want to see RAID fights or any kind of needing 24 players or 32 players or even 12 players,i like nice neat and tidy 5-6 man groups.That way you have 1-2 healer,1 tank,couple dps and a all around class,people mess up it is noticeable and problems should arise.
How far would i go with penalties?Lose an entire level or 25% of level and a loss of stats for perhaps 15 minutes,so you can keep fighting but extremely risky as a weakened player.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
seriously man .. wtf , if a person is afraid do try some content in a video game because your pixels might die , i would wonder how they can ever to succeed at any thing at all in life .. .. Lol scared of game content .. wow words cant describe ....
No they're not scared of game content, they simply don't want to waste their time, it's best to wait until the risk is minimal. Where do you think the "forced" socialization factor comes from? It's born of the want to negate the risk.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
seriously man .. wtf , if a person is afraid do try some content in a video game because your pixels might die , i would wonder how they can ever to succeed at any thing at all in life .. .. Lol scared of game content .. wow words cant describe ....
No they're not scared of game content, they simply don't want to waste their time, it's best to wait until the risk is minimal. Where do you think the "forced" socialization factor comes from? It's born of the want to negate the risk.
Dont want to waste there time .. why ... ? They might fail ... ?
No they're not scared of game content, they simply don't want to waste their time, it's best to wait until the risk is minimal. Where do you think the "forced" socialization factor comes from? It's born of the want to negate the risk.
Dont want to waste there time .. why ... ? They might fail ... ?
Who knows? All I know is I've seen the behavior time and time again. One really good example would be those who played Jedi early on in pre-cu SWG. Most wouldn't go anywhere without an entourage. Another example would be the many players who won't leave a safe spot until they have a zerg behind their back in PVP games. That's the type of crap these harsh games result in. It destroys the fun of playing the game in many cases.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
This is true, but it also has the effect of making things more valuable and exciting. If only a few people have dared to venture to and complete x area then it's something that is talked about in game and those players who did it are admired and sought after for advice. If everyone can do it then there is no excitement there.
I get that it makes a world more foreboding. I don't agree it is the only path to excitement, nor that it's absence equates to no thrill..
I'd say it can be just the opposite in PVP, as the more risk involved in losing, the less people actually PVP outside of zergs, making nail bitingly close even encounters few and far between.
Post edited by Distopia on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No they're not scared of game content, they simply don't want to waste their time, it's best to wait until the risk is minimal. Where do you think the "forced" socialization factor comes from? It's born of the want to negate the risk.
Dont want to waste there time .. why ... ? They might fail ... ?
Who knows? All I know is I've seen the behavior time and time again. One really good example would be those who played Jedi early on in pre-cu SWG. Most wouldn't go anywhere without an entourage. Another example would be the many players who won't leave a safe spot until they have a zerg behind their back in PVP games. That's the type of crap these harsh games result in. It destroys the fun of playing the game in many cases.
Exactly that Jedi was afraid of dying , He knew the end result.... Those players that wait for the zerg are afraid of getting ganked and dying etc ..the funny thing now tho is there is nothing to lose , So why be afraid .. (just such strange behavior).. Embrace it ,welcome it.... you just may surprise yourself and succeed and find it a helluva lot more satisfying than hiding in a corner ... But this confirms my original thought they are afraid (scared) of failing ....
I think in most cases harsh penalties really do nothing but force most players to avoid actively playing. Which is counter productive IMO. If people are only adventuring when the circumstances negate the possibility of dying, and in turn suffering the consequence. What's the point in having those consequences in the first place?
This is true, but it also has the effect of making things more valuable and exciting. If only a few people have dared to venture to and complete x area then it's something that is talked about in game and those players who did it are admired and sought after for advice. If everyone can do it then there is no excitement there.
I get that it makes a world more foreboding. I don't agree it is the only path to excitement, nor that it's absence equates to no thrill..
I'd say it can be just the opposite in PVP, as the more risked involved in losing, the less people actually PVP outside of zergs, making nail bitingly close even encounters few and far between.
That could also be looked at in a positive light. I find a lot of the PvP in modern games includes respawning quickly and go at it endlessly until time runs out (instance) or in open world PvP it can go on endlessly. I never really enjoyed that aspect of World of Warcraft. I actually prefer the dueling system which may be even more casual in a way. Discouraging PvP from happening all the time might be a good thing. I guess it depends on who is playing the game.
Remember first playing Asheron's Call and carefully acquiring "death items" that I wouldn't be afraid to lose. I have to admit that it was fun going after my Greater Shadow Armor to craft non drop stuff. It kept me happily occupied for months if not years. AC did keep me on my toes and was a nice introduction to MMOs. I remember some spectacular deaths like the one where my husband tried following some guildmates and jumped into some lava pit. They spent hours trying to help him recover his poor body lol. With that said though, I'm generally not a big fan of overly punitive games. I know there are some players that really enjoy this challenge but it isn't me. I played EQ2 a few years later and admit that corpse runs were not enjoyable for me. There wasn't anything fun about having a death deep in some dungeon with a group, looking at the clock and seeing that it was well past my bed time and I had to go to work the next day and knowing that a corpse recovery wasn't possible. A few of those deaths caused me to leave for WoW and abandon EQ2 right at launch. I did return to EQ2 a bit later after it was toned down a bit and really enjoyed my time there.
Real life for me is stressful enough. I don't enjoy harsh games all that much. Kudos to those who love them though. Ya'll are much better gamers that I am. I do know my limitations though and try to gravitate to games that I know I will enjoy.
Comments
I had fun once, it was terrible.
"Maybe if I was a kid again when gaming was new.
Don't have the time or patience for anything like that nowadays. Too many games and too little time to play them. I now find games that take away things when you lose are just extremely disrespectful to your time, barring some exceptions (roguelikes)."
But if I were to chose between 0 death-penalty(WoW) and too much(old Tibia) i'd probably pick too much..
And yes, I was one of the lucky few that was lucky enough to PK more than I got PKed myself ofcourse. As said, it got extremely competitive and "power-abuse" was the norm. So yeah, ofcourse the majority of players(the losers in the battle for power
Follow us: www.facebook.com/Argardh Youtube-channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNmxHWGpO790r-4wn4AEeSA
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Nice video. Very applyable to Tibia. Killers abused and lived on achievers and all other kind of players and to a really extreme extent. As said power-abuse was more or less norm for the mightiest 1-3 guilds(But no, not me mate. I was a pureblooded Killer
Today though, it's 99% against the 1% of devs.. as I said in a previous post it's the developers/producers market. Players pay for everything even if its real shit.. they won't know it until they've tasted it(ah right, the Demo-thread)
Follow us: www.facebook.com/Argardh Youtube-channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNmxHWGpO790r-4wn4AEeSA
You build amazingly strong bonds and loyalty with it. Works in MMORPGs as well, see EVE.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't fall for modern psycho babble.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Follow us: www.facebook.com/Argardh Youtube-channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNmxHWGpO790r-4wn4AEeSA
The key is getting the risk vs the reward correct and making sure the player has a lot of control over the risk they take on.
I feel CCP has done the best in this regard, rewarding players for smart game play and punishing (sometimes severely) for mistakes.
Others will disagree as we all have varying tolerance levels for discomfort and challenge, and all are not looking for the same thing.
In the OPS Tibia example no way do I want to play that, a bit too much pain in that model, but I do agree it builds a different sort of community when there are consequences viewed as more than just "its only pixels"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Who exactly are you bonding with when you are losing progression due to a solo death brought on by a lag spike?
You bond because you group and share experiences, not because those experiences are negative or positive but because they are meaningful or difficult to accomplish. Harsh death penalties doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I had fun once, it was terrible.
What i don't like is sequences,linear combat where you remember a sequence then the combat becomes trivial.I also do NOT like needing special gear or tier of gear to win a battle,i want combat to be competitive but not ridiculously hard,just keep it challenging and fun.
I NEVER want to see RAID fights or any kind of needing 24 players or 32 players or even 12 players,i like nice neat and tidy 5-6 man groups.That way you have 1-2 healer,1 tank,couple dps and a all around class,people mess up it is noticeable and problems should arise.
How far would i go with penalties?Lose an entire level or 25% of level and a loss of stats for perhaps 15 minutes,so you can keep fighting but extremely risky as a weakened player.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd say it can be just the opposite in PVP, as the more risk involved in losing, the less people actually PVP outside of zergs, making nail bitingly close even encounters few and far between.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Real life for me is stressful enough. I don't enjoy harsh games all that much. Kudos to those who love them though. Ya'll are much better gamers that I am. I do know my limitations though and try to gravitate to games that I know I will enjoy.