Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Where do you think 4.0 will take us?
LumiLumi
Member UncommonPosts: 48
Seeing that 3.0 took us to the skies, where will 4.0 lead us?
A few people are talking about the sea but I'm not to sure. That'd be a huge job and how would underwater maps truly work?
They've already near-confirmed that Ivalice-influence will play a bigger part in the new expansion. And a lot of people are sure that Viera will be the dead cert for the new introduction Race.
People have said Red Mage and Samurai are the upcoming jobs.
What do you all think?
I'd like to see another DPS/HEAL/TANK combo again. It really boosted the queues and having more diverse range of "tanks" is, to me, always a positive. We're desperate for tanks still - so it's wonderful to add to that.
Another healer would be difficult seeing that you already have both proactive and retroactive healers as well as one "in between". So... what could you really introduce now?
A few people are talking about the sea but I'm not to sure. That'd be a huge job and how would underwater maps truly work?
They've already near-confirmed that Ivalice-influence will play a bigger part in the new expansion. And a lot of people are sure that Viera will be the dead cert for the new introduction Race.
People have said Red Mage and Samurai are the upcoming jobs.
What do you all think?
I'd like to see another DPS/HEAL/TANK combo again. It really boosted the queues and having more diverse range of "tanks" is, to me, always a positive. We're desperate for tanks still - so it's wonderful to add to that.
Another healer would be difficult seeing that you already have both proactive and retroactive healers as well as one "in between". So... what could you really introduce now?
Comments
@puzupuzzle
Atm im at http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Where_the_Chocobos_Roam
- The better parts of the HW story line, with some real emotional highlights, involved close up interactions with humans/influenced humans.
Generally the most involving villains throughout movie/game/tv history have been humans(oid), bringing the battles to a closer, personal focus, rather than shouting at a 50ft beast. Even those, despite their capacity for destruction, assume the role of fond menace - Kong, Godzilla etc. Others can just appear faceless and somewhat characterless.
So a return to focusing on ARR's main antagonists will be very welcome - (as will a move away from some of the HW revised npc voice actors - this area was real hit and miss).
Classes - they have stated they're not going to release 3 new classes simultaneously again. It was just too much for them with all the other expansion work. I agree.
Astrologian for example showed the effects of this. Basically it's half a WHM with several of the abilities copy & paste identical, just renamed - far too similar.
As such, it gives nothing back to the other two healing classes in terms of new cross class skills, just ending up with more well trodden abilities being passed across to the Astro.
Maybe the other new classes showed greater differentiation, but as a player of healers the Astro seemed a stretched effort.
TL:DR:
1. Focus on-in-your-face villainy, not 50ft monsters.
2. Concentrate on putting real differentiation and depth into any new class.
As for setting, Ivalice is still my favorite FF setting, so anything along those lines would be awesome.
Jobs wise I want Samurai as a DPS with a strong TP management mechanic, e.g. big hits that burn a lot of TP and combos that regain TP. Red mage is also not a bad choice, but I think they should be a healer with a strong focus on buffs / debuffs.
Though you'll have to bust through patches 3.4 and 3.5 :proud:
I found getting through the story content really fun. I recently made an alt and decided to do another content clear character. You level so insanely fast o_O; I was level 56 before even touching any HW content.
Whatever direction they take it in, it'd be especially nice - to me - to see them cut the umbilical cord to WoW, get out of Blizzard's shadow, and actually take FFXIV in its own direction.
For example, FFXI's original design was heavily inspired by EQ1; it provided the foundation of the game. After that, though, they cut the umbilical cord, got out of EQ1's shadow, and took FFXI in its own direction. It would go on to be described as unlike anything else on the market, maintaining a healthy, active and incredibly supportive community for years.
By comparison, with FFXIV, Yoshida seems determined to cling to WoW, and even its players, as a major source of ideas and direction. He hasn't cut the umbilical cord, and he's clinging to WoW's shadow like a child to their security blanket.
I've seen him cite what WoW does, or has, or what its players think, etc. so many times since 2.0's development, I've lost track. What's worse, is he's done this while ignoring/dismissing months' worth of well-reasoned requests, suggestions and concerns from players of his game, to add more depth and variety, more aggressive RMT measures, and so on. There seems to be a breakdown in Yoshida's priorities. I'm beginning to wonder if he wishes he was working on WoW, instead off FFXIV.
A recent example is the whole "jumping potion" thing. First of all, I predict they'll be added to the game at some point with 4.0, if not sooner. He's already started making the case for it in that recent interview/article, citing 1. It's already in the Chinese FFXIV, 2. WoW has them, and 3. WoW players have asked why he didn't add them with 3.0. In the same response, he dismisses a concern about it being, basically, a cash grab by SE. That he chose to get out in front of that particular concern is telling. He's already doing damage control for it. So, yeah... "Please look forward to it".
Of special note, going back to my remarks above: Yoshida talks up "what WoW has", and "what WoW players have to say" as arguments for an item his own game's community has not been asking for. Am I the only person who thinks that's screwed up?
Another thing I'd like is for Yoshida to stop diluting Eorzea with all the damn fan-service. FFXIV started off strong, with its own unique setting, story, characters, lore, world, etc. It stood apart as its own universe among the FF series, self-contained and internally consistent. However, over time, and especially since 3.0, it's becoming a Fan Service Simulator. Every time they turn around, there's some new feature or content being added pulled directly from another FF game. They could, without irony, call it World of Final Fantasy at this point.
And how about dungeons? What the hell is going on there? FFXIV's dungeons are becoming straight lines. We started off with interesting, thought-out dungeons, like this , this, this, and this. Recently, we've been getting crap like Sor Khai, and Antitower, which I can't even find a map for online - likely because you don't need one.
They're even getting lazier with mounts. At first, new mounts were specifically designed and animated to fly. Then they started recycling ground mounts as flying mounts (with some really ridiculous examples). For the latest Moogle mount, they've literally recycled a background prop.
Somewhere along the line, Yoshida lost the plot, and I've come to think he's not the right guy for the job anymore. I think he's hit the limit of what he's able, or willing to do, and it's beginning to show.
My two gil.
At least with AK back in 2.0, people would wipe at certain bits because they had to learn mechanics. No wonder the general playerbase are so useless when fun content like Mhach comes out. Mhach isn't hard... just people make it difficult by not opening their eyes and expecting to faceroll through it like everything else.
Fully expected that exact answer, regarding "all the maps are linear". Took longer than expected, but I knew someone would throw that one out.
Here's the thing, what I said was the dungeons were interesting and thought out. Of course making your way through a dungeon is going to, ultimately, be following a core path from A to Z. The entire point of a dungeon is "getting to the end and clearing all the bad guys".
The difference is, and what I said in my post, is there was more thought and creativity put into their layouts. They were more interesting places to go through. They felt like places that could actually exist. There were times where a group actually had to stop a moment and get our bearings because it wasn't just a straight line. There was more detail. There were more nooks and crannies scattered about, apart from the critical path; places to go off and check out to see if anything was there, find treasure, etc.
Look at Keeper of The Lake. It's really only 3 short-ish segments going up through the Agrius. However, the environment looks convincingly like you're going up through the inside of a wrecked ship, with the Garleans turning it into a base of sorts. It has a sense of place. It tells a story. Then look at Antitower. It's a series of rooms, corridors and jump-pads. That's it. Such an interesting concept for a dungeon, and that's all they could come up with. With fewer exceptions in each update, their dungeon designs are getting lazier and less inspired over time.
Incidentally, FFXIV 1.x had several dungeons that were not linear in design, and players did have multiple choices they could make on how to get through it, including instanced dungeons. For example, Toto Rak in 1.x had 3 possible end bosses you could choose from, depending on the path you took. Players had choice in how they experienced the content.
Under Yoshida's direction, all that choice was removed. He decided it was better to dictate exactly which way players go, and give no choice in the matter - which is right in line with many of his "philosophies" with this game. He's an unabashed fan of linearity and hand-holding, and it becomes more apparent with time. He's repeatedly dismissed or ignored requests for more depth, more variety, more interesting content, even within systems that already exist. Time and again, he favors the more linear, grindier path. The result has been exactly as Lumi Lumi says, among other things. I believe the game is, and continues to be worse off for it.
As for Diadem, well, that's a different system entirely. Bringing that up as a response to my and Lumi's remarks on the degrading creativity in dungeon design seems more like an attempt to deflect. It's irrelevant. It's like a produce merchant responding to complaints about their apples by saying "Well, I have a great looking shipment of potatoes coming in!".
And besides, having a more interesting Diadem setup (whose first incarnation sounded far cooler in concept than it was in execution), and more interesting, thought-out dungeons, are not mutually exclusive. You can have both at the same time. If the best response to "why are FFXIV's dungeons becoming more like straight lines?" is "well, go do the new Diadem", that's a failure of the design team to create compelling, interesting dungeons, and underscores my point. It also demonstrates a rather discouraging degree of complacency from the player base.
Originally posted by Scagweed22
is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life
Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.
If you are going to respond to me, please stop ignoring what I say. If you're going to continue to do so, then please don't bother replying.
Regarding your remark about "... it was a totally different game from 2.0 and onward". That's a complete non-sequitur. It's a silly argument. Having a rebuilt game, and having dungeons with more open, multi-path designs are not mutually exclusive. One does not preclude the other. Toto Rak could very well have been brought into 2.0 with the same setup. Consistent with his penchant for making things linear and guided, Yoshida chose to strip it down to what it is now.
As for Diadem making way for more open dungeons and raids... Well, wishful thinking is nice and all. Just remember to temper your dreams of "what could be" with the reality of "what is and has been". Precedent, and Yoshida's own remarks in the past, points toward a game that will continue being highly instanced and compartmentalized.
He's shown a clear preference for "playing it safe". For example, he's explained how they decided against open world dungeons very early on in ARR's development, citing reasons that, really... make me wonder if he has any idea that other MMORPGs have somehow made them work just fine for over a decade now - including FFXI. He really seems to have very limited vision when it comes to certain things.
For example, here's a response he gave when asked about open world dungeons in FFXIV. It's taken from here: Live Letter XVII
So there you have it, in his own words. For all that explanation, all he does is demonstrate how short-sighted he is. Reading that response is as astounding to me now as it was back when it was first posted.
The only way he can relate to dungeon content is as instanced, loot-corridors. He can't conceive of any other way dungeons can be implemented, even though myriad other MMORPGs before it - including FFXI - have pulled it off beautifully for over a decade.
He's concerned about population density... Again, a problem that was solved, or just plain avoided, over a decade ago by other MMOs, including FFXI. You control population density by making the zones huge with a broad level range and numerous different goals/objectives spread throughout. This way people aren't all concentrated in the same small area. They're spread out by level range, by content, by goal, etc. A place like Garliage Citadel could have many people in it at the same time, with xp camps spread out across and between the two floors, some people working their way to the banishing gates to find their coffer, doing a quest task, etc. "Over crowding" was never an issue technically speaking.
He's the Produce/Director of a MMORPG, and has been playing them himself for many years, but he doesn't grasp that?
Or, NM because you realize everything I've posted is backed up with actual in-game content, and/or Yoshida's own words/actions, and is all readily verifiable by any who wish to see the game for what it is, unclouded by what they want it to be?
Again, this isn't just me hating on the game. I've supported this game since Alpha of 1.0. I stuck with it through all the crap it went through before and while Yoshida was trying to turn it around, right on up through the final moments of 1.23b. I was there all through the development of ARR, straight into Alpha and Beta testing, into launch, and right up to the present.
Point is, when I say what I have, it's not me "trolling a game I don't like". It's me addressing verifiable things about the game's direction that I find troublesome and, frankly, annoying. My hopes for 4.0 would be that Yoshida, somehow, do an about face and move away from the direction he's been taking it since 3.0.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I explained, quite clearly, that more thought and imagination went into the dungeons earlier on in 2.0, and they've been getting more and more linear, and resembling a straight line more than anything. I linked to examples of what we were getting earlier into ARR, and what we have been moving toward since 3.0.
Your first response was this:
I will agree on this however it was that way from the beginning, all the maps he uses for examples are a linear trek even though they may not look it. I think what yoshi is working on with the new Diadem area and fixes may open up new possibilities.
You used the "well all dungeons are linear" routine, completely ignoring the point of my post. You then attempted to deflect by bringing up Diadem, a completely different type of content/system.
I reiterated my point that while a dungeon is going to ultimately be going from "A to Z" to clear it out of enemies, but that they can still be more interesting, and provided examples of what we'd had from earlier in 2.0 compared to what we have now.
You came back with an attempt to undermine my examples, ignoring the fact that I'd just given you 4 examples of dungeons added in 2.0, by saying:
"Sure 1.0 had some non linear dungeons but that was a totally different game from 2.0 and onward."
You also gave the non-sequitur response about "1.0 being a different game", which I also responded to.
Basically, you've been ignoring what I'm saying, deflecting or throwing around non-sequiturs through this entire exchange. Yes, when I'm attempting to have a discussion with someone, it's irritating to have the other person repeatedly ignore or try to deflect what I'm saying.
Anyway, I do wish Tanaka had stayed on board, and had the same opportunity/responsibility SE gave Yoshida, to fix FFXIV.
Tanaka's big mistake in 1.0, per his own admission, is that he basically gave the developers/designers too much freedom.
A quote from Tanaka about the situation, from here.
"The trigger for me thinking about leaving was getting removed from the Final Fantasy XIV project," Tanaka told Famitsu. "I helped mold Final Fantasy XI into one of the best MMO formats on the market, and I wanted to respect the wishes of the team as much as possible when they wanted to make something different with FFXIV, so I tried my best not to meddle too much with development. In the end they weren't able to realize what they were aiming for, which is a shame, but I wish them the best of luck with the reboot."
Obviously that was the wrong choice; there's a reason games have Directors and Producers, after all. Ironically, Tanaka's mistake was not being hands-on enough.
BUT, while Yoshida had experience in playing MMOs, Tanaka had over a decade of experience in developing and running a MMORPG, more specifically, a successful Final Fantasy MMORPG. He also had years of direct involvement with the FF series, which is why FFXI would go on to be so unique in the market, and would earn the long-term loyal following it had.
1.0 had a *lot* of good things in it. Lots of things that were either good on their own (and, in fact persisted into 2.0), or were solid ideas with poor implementation. Problem is, all that good got dragged down and overshadowed by all the bad.
Yes, 1.0 needed to be fixed. Absolutely. However, by "fix" I mean "deal with all the things that actually were gamebreaking, without eliminating all the things that weren't."
Tanaka, I believe, would have found and maintained that balance, and produced a much better Final Fantasy MMORPG experience. Yoshida, on the other hand, effectively threw the baby out with the bathwater.
In a Tanaka-led FFXIV 2.0, we'd still have a meaningful Elemental Wheel (something Yoshida was quick to get rid of). We'd probably still have more interesting and intelligent mob AI, making the world a more dangerous place to explore, even at high level. We'd likely still have larger and more interesting dungeons. We'd likely have open world dungeons, without everything being tucked away inside instances. We would likely have a proper MMORPG, instead of a shallow fan service simulator.
So yeah, I always thought they removed him from the project a bit too quickly. And, now, I rather wish they'd given him the chance they gave Yoshida. A discussion about "going into 4.0" would likely be very different.