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How to get permabanned real quick
awoz
Member Posts: 48
Just a note to warn people...Most EVE players understand if you buy or sell stuff on ebay you can be permanently banned from the game. Well, not only that but what has occured in at least one case I have personal knowledge of, a person who was mad at a char. sent a fake ebay auction to CCP claiming the character was purchased on Ebay.
This resulted in the character and all his accounts being banned. Unfortunately, the CCP staff seem to be easlily duped. They were fooled into believing that, and still stuck to the ban even when the forum auction for the character was shown to them. The ownership of the character had been transfered to a new person with the 20$ fee paid. But as CCP thought it had been bought on Ebay, they banned the account. At the same time they banned ALL the accounts on that same credit card even though they belonged to 3 different members of the same family.
Game players need more rights. As a class of cosumer we have less rights than just about anyone even though our accounts are potentially valuable. At any time for any reason the game can ban you, or take your account, or just close up shop (like Earth and Beyond did). Or they can nerf the game in such a way that ruins the value of your account.
The laws of the land take a long time to catch up with the virtual world. But it is getting near the time I hope to see consumer laws written for internet gamers. At least we should have the right to appeal a banning especially when the GM's are dumb as rocks. In a democracy the rights of appeal are tradional and reasonable. In the internet gaming world you are guilty until proven innocent, but the judges won't even look at the evidence or respond to emails when you try to defend yourself or prove your innocence. That is just plain wrong.
Comments
As of now, most companies let you 'appeal' your being banned. This is what you're doing when you send an email to the company and ask them to unban you or whatever.
The premise you're working on here is faulty I believe. First of all, when you install the game or log onto the servers you get that lovely little set of paragraphs that everyone skips over. This is called the End User License Agreement (or EULA), which you have to AGREE to abide by before you play the game. They have that there for a reason, read it and if you don't like it then don't play the game. (I know I hate it when people say that, but you have to abide by those rules when you play the game, or you're not allowed to play, hence banning)
When you sign up for an MMO, you are paying for your account, but in almost every case, that account stays as the property of the game maker. You are pretty much just 'renting' it. These are accounts to have fun and play the game on. It's not a stock option or other valuable commodity, it is a rented game account from the company. Just like when you rent bowling shoes to go bowling, you can't then sell those shoes to someone else.
The truth is you have very little rights because all the content of the game and the account is still their intellectual property. There's no way that the government is going to be able to tell the companies what they can and can't do with their intellectual property.
Also, if you're doing something that's against the rules, or even shady (like buying and selling accounts), then you're playing with fire. It doesn't matter if everyone else is doing it, you may be the one to get burned.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Well, everything you say is true. And has been said many times before. But as a consumer I have certain expectations and in most cases when buying something, I also have rights. All I am saying is, as an internet gamer, the way the rules are set up now, you have few or no rights. This will change with time. There are very large numbers of people paying and playing now. Sooner or later consumer rules, laws etc will change and we'll have a few rights. Like the right to an appeal of a banning. You say you can email them, but if they don't bother to read what you send them, because there are no repurcussions if they don't, then you are just out of luck.
Now I got banned playing Ultima once, wow like 6 or 7 years ago. Too bad for the GM, who banned me unfairly, that the head of Origins at that time was someone I knew personally. The GM was ultimately fired as he was guilty of many, many abuses, or so I was told.
Not all games police their GM's well at all. What is an account worth to you that you've spent, say, 5 years creating? Is it right that some GM can just take it away from you based on his/her judgement? And without any right to appeal?
No. At least not in free democratic countries. Maybe in a communist country this is OK.
Internet gamers should have more rights as consumers.
You can appeal a ban in Eve Online.
Just seek contact with a senior GM, explain the situation thruthfully and without being offensive (that part is important), and have some patience.
I'd also like to point out that they would nomrally not accept player sourced 'evidence' of anything, so why in this case ?
are you absolutely sure it wasn't bought on ebay ? CCP are notoriously carefull with their bans, I'd expect them to have confirmed the acuton with ebay before giving out a permaban.
Ok well since it was not bought on Ebay, how can there be anything other than false evidence?
I have written the GM's many times over the years, since 2003.
About 30-40% of the time the response shows me they did not read my message completely.
They ask me things in their response that were carefully explained in the original message or they say things that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
It's like when I wrote my US Senator about a National Park environmental issue, and got back a letter on school lunch programs.
The lights are on but nobody's home. Or perhaps it's an "English as a 2nd language" problem?
Again the senior GM said there was irrefutable proof it was purchased on Ebay, even though it was not.
He was duped somehow, duped as in fooled.
Heck people are on DEATH ROW in the USA after 3 trials. People do make mistakes, obviously. And when you can't see the evidence against you, don't know who your accusers are, and can't even speak with the person making this decision over your life, it just doesn't seem right somehow.
But that's just me, I could be wrong.
The EULA wouldn't hold up in court, simply because you can't view it *before* purchase, this is especially the case with games you buy in stores. EULA =! contract.
This is something that will definitely change, especially the more rl assets and game assets mingle up (eg legal purchase of ingame items or RL cash, like in "Second Life"). The Intellectual property of the game itself will ofc still remain at the company, but the digital data of a certain item/service itself, well.... we will see, how the courts (and the law) will deal with this in the future.
------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
The EULA wouldn't hold up in court, simply because you can't view it *before* purchase, this is especially the case with games you buy in stores. EULA =! contract.
For EVE you can view the EULA before buying but it doesn't have to hold up in court, they reserve the right to decide who they offer their services to. If they don't want to offer their service to you anymore that's it and best you can ask for is to get any money paid in advance back.
If it's at any time found that the EULA is not an enforceable contract than it means that they don't have a contract with you either and can do pretty much what they want. So it is a dubble edged sword. Contracts are always dual sided, if you don't have any obligations to them then they have no obligations to you.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
It's there game they can ban who they like.......there's no "gamers rights"
There is usually a "No Refunds" clause buried in the EULA of most MMOs. But I imagine in most cases of banning a refund will be given.
In cases of hacking the company's servers or other extreme misconduct I wouldn't count on getting one however.
yeah no kidding, really?
That's what the thread is about, the fact that gamers need rights.
<deleted>
yeah no kidding, really?
That's what the thread is about, the fact that gamers need rights.
You don't need gamers rights. It essentially like banning a person from your brick-n-mortar store. Its their property, they can and do ban whomever for whatever. GMs are the managers of the store that is a game. Now typically there is a hierarchy in GM land, a couple tiers of techs depending on the size of the game and ammount of tickets or petitions they get. You can always try and advance the issue you have to a higher level.
And if you are completely innocent, and still they won't unban your account, either create a new one, or move on.
The problem is that the EULA only protects one party: the provider.
I think this is good and reasonable, but I also think that the EULA, in order to be a true "contract," needs to give protections to the consumer as well.
When I get an apartment, I don't "own" the space. I rent it. But just because I rent it does not give the owner of the building the right to treat me as a tennent in any manner he or she wishes. The lease gives them rights, but the lease also gives me rights as a renter.
Most MMO models succeed if they get a purchaser to buy as little as one month subscription fee before cancelling, and moving on. If that is the case, what is to prevent these companies from waiting until one day has passed on the account, and cancelling it, using whatever justification they can fabricate, and keeping the money? Because only they really can say with authority what is and is not going on in the account. Its their word against the word of someone they allege as a cheater and violator of their EULA. Who do you think has the leg to stand upon?
Yes, we need protections. We do, or online gaming dies. Because the genre will eventually become too filled with horror stories to draw consumers, and we'll just simply spend our entertainment dollars on less uncertain mediums, like single player games or LAN.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This Is a funny thread. The bottom line is ,. you dont own anything in the game,the only thing you own is the box the game came in,.
Rights? player rights? whats that meen,.? this is a game and its not real.If you had been baned im sure you did something wrong.Like someone said you are renting,its probly the best way to look at it.
As far as eve staff and GM's,. they have been the best iv seen so far,they are vary nice and seem to repsond fast.its all owned by 3 guys I think that built this game from ground up,. and as far as iv seen they care about there players.
With that said ,. I 100% dont beleave they would be fooled like that an ban a unsuspecting player with out doing there own investigation,and thats if they waist there time on crap info like that from some random player.they got real hackers and ebay bums they waist there time on,. not shady leads made by random players.
EULA keeps the game safe from repeating offenders and thus keeps the game more fun for the ones here to play.. We as players dont need rights,. thats foolish,man you need to get out more or somthing.
Take like this: The only gym within 100 miles bans you because you did something wrong. You think its wrong that they did this so you take it to court, you will lose. Now if its a supermarket and the only store that sells food retail within 100 miles, you could probably take it to court, and have a better chance of winning some settlement, even if it was simply that the store has to sell you items in the store, but the judge may rule you have no right to enter the store at all.
We don't need protections, the only protection we have is word of mouth, and paying with the dollar. If a company has bad policies don't buy from them, or don't use their products.
Then like I said, the genre dies.
The genre dies because when word of mouth gets out that people are getting kicked out in the middle of their subscriptions on the whim of the providers, people won't continue subscribing. When we have this happen in enough games, people will stop subscribing to online altogether.
Its one thing if we are kicked out of a gym because we "did something wrong." Its another thing entirely if we are kicked out of a gym, due to no verifiable violation of gym membership, without a refund of our membership, because the owner just decided we weren't welcome.
And by all rights, if the owner decides the day after we pay for a month of membership that we are not welcome, then he has the right to kick us out. But my goodness man, he sure liked us the day before when we were writing him out a check, now didn't he?
I'm sure any judge of law or equity would agree with me when I went to get that money back, that I deserved every cent of it back, and maybe then some. Because you just can't take someone's money in exchage for a service, deny the service, and still keep the money, on a matter of arbitrary whim. There has to be a reason that not only is a compelling one, but also is true.
So if someone was kicked out of a gym in the middle of his or her membership on the grounds he or she was "funny looking," the owner may have the right to do that. But I don't think it is unreasonable for the "funny looking person" to ask for their money back, and get it back. If the funny looking person is so upsetting, you'd think the owner would be glad to oblige, just to get him or her out, no?
Now if someone was kicked out of the gym in the middle of his or her membership on the grounds that he or she was stealing towels, the owner has the right to do that too. The owner may even be entitled to keep the money. But the owner can't keep the money for merely thinking the member stole towels. I would think the burden is on the owner to show that the member actually stole towels. And even if the member stole the towels, I would think that the owner would have to be able to articulate why the gym is entitled to keep the service payment from those who they are not willing to continue servicing as compensation for these towels.
From what I am seeing, you basically say that MMORPG providers have the right to welcome us to the servers with credit cards in hand on day one, throw us out because we "look funny" on day two, and keep the remaining 28 days the membership fee bought for no reason that makes sense, and no violation they can show. Boy man, maybe I should go into the MMO business. If it were any other business, I'd get thrown in jail for that sort of thing.
This isn't a matter of judging policies before we sign up. Because since we have no rights, those policies are subject to the arbitrary whim of whatever the provider wants it to be on any given day.
Nor is it a matter of limiting their rights to do with their business as they deem appropriate. But I haven't seen an MMO company yet who dislikes a subscriber's patronage so much that they are willing to pay back the money. They are more than willing to take our money for 30 days of service. The problem is, there is no obligation on their part to provide 30 days of service. All they have to do is not like a player for them to strip a player of ther subscription, without having to refund the subscription fee.
Nor is it a matter of not using their products, when they can substitute the product on a whim, and claim it fulfills their obligation. The check is cashed already, and they ain't going to give it back, no matter how badly they misrepresent their end.
And I agree with you that word of mouth is a killer. It will kill this genre unless this business gets cleaned up, and gives us some protections. And its going to hurt the good MMO providers most of all. Because when our entertainment dollars are tied up paying for subscriptions we cannot access, and in the false promises of slimy providers who cheat us, and refuse to give our money back, we have less entertainment dollars available for good MMOs who treat the customers right.
Now maybe we want online gaming to die. Personally, I'd rather it thrive.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I wish the EULAs protected players. But that's not their function.
I remember back in Star Wars Galaxies, there was a proviso in the EULA that said, and these are the exact words, "you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which would otherwise impact game play."
Yet, people did use and distribute macros that allowed unattended gameplay. Flagrantly. And when those players who were negatively impacted by unattended gameplay said that there were cheaters, SOE did not enforce their EULA for the protection of these entertainers, crafters, and swordsmen.
The reason they did not is because the EULA is not there to protect the players, hold the providers accountable for enforcing it, or give players a leg to stand on when arguing for changes that improve their experience. Its there to protect the providers only, and they are under no obligation to enforce their claims in it.
Just because an EULA says that harassment will not be tolerated does not mean that the provider will sanction harassers. Just because the EULA says that eBay sales will not be tolerated, doesn't mean they have an obligation to do anything about it. Nor does it say that they do not have the authority to arbitrarily determine which eBayers are banned, and which can stay. For example, I'm sure if Oveur wanted to make a titan appear, and sell it on eBay, no amount of player requests to enforce the EULA would make any difference.
Providers have rights. But the biggest right they have claimed is not to crack down on game sales, or change the game without notice. The biggest right they have claimed is to take the fees we give them for whatever they deem appropriate to give us in return. Whether its actually what they promise, or not.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Beatnik59,.
I see your point. but useing SWG as a refrence is a bad one,. I was there when the game started,.I seen it from begining to end (combat change = END)
SWG was horrible and doomed by its own Devs.There was a macro program built into the game,that was free for all players to use and afk with so its was there falt and they cant be banning players for using there own in game functions.
The EULA is there to protect the game not the players,. but in the same respect it protects the players from cheaters and players that break the rules.
I cant speak for all games,. but we are kinda talking about eve-online here,.and Ill stand by them 100% and say they repsect there players and try hard to keep the game fair,.there not stupid and dont only think about there paychecks.Like (ultima online) Now a days you make make a game and get rich off just the players using it to make cash on ebay,. got a 1000 people paying you X amount of dollers a month to use your game to make cash on ebay,.if you just look at it that way you will get rich,.eve-online on the other hand dont see it this way,. and want it to be a game for us not a busness.
I know a guy that sell's cash and items and accounts for Guildwars,. He dont play the game,. infact he dont know what a Mesmer is or Hall of hero's,.he dont play,. he just buys and sells,. and makes around 300bux a month,.we dont want this kind of BS in eve.
And you will not have a problem
Lt.DeadEnd:
I'll agree with you that SWG was a tragedy. And that blame, by its very nature, must be directed at the top. But I don't think SWG was doomed from the start, as much as it was doomed when small problems that could have been easily treated early, were allowed to fester into larger ones, requiring a larger solution, creating a "snowball effect."
But you know, at the beginning I trusted the SWG devs 100% too. They seemed very interested in 2003 to be for the players, and player needs. In fact, the reason they didn't enfore their own EULA for buffbots was because they did it for the players who have come to depend on them. However, the problem is that when change needed to be made, the devs were either too committed to their vision to do what was necessary, or too quick to abandon the whole theory when small problems could be solved easily.
Now I don't think that Oveur and the devs for EVE are any less suseptable to fault. They have been, for the most part, very careful decision makers. But I question what would happen if the game needs something that the devs's theory cannot allow, like the abandonment of "one server," or the modification of major systems like war, territorialism, and such, if they will maintain the course, or if they will change.
I think that coming down hard on ISK sales is a good thing. Why they come down hard on ISK sales, but give ascent to game codes for ISK, shows that CCP is not above modifying their principles to suit their interests.
But I do know that if they are so fanatic about clamping down on eBay sales that they are willing to ban players on mere suspicion, that is wrong. Because that can happen to any one of us, and what will our appeal be?
Will it cause me to lose all trust? No, but it will cause me to lose some trust. Because I have learned to never trust anyone in this industry "100%," to the point that I am justifying their faults. Only a fanatical fanboi says things like, "if the devs ban him, then its because he did something wrong, because we know they wouldn't do bad things against players." Because I don't put it above anyone to make errors. Perhaps big ones. It remains to be shown if this really was a case of unjust banning, but if innocent players are being banned with no recompense, that doesn't deserve to be shrugged off and excused, simply because we don't want to give CCP a bad name.
EVE is fun, and pretty good. That doesn't mean EVE doesn't have big problems that the devs are unwilling or unable to solve. At some point this game will cease. But as in all things, the ones who will be to blame, must start from the top.
I don't envy those fella's jobs. They take a lot of criticism. I agree that not all of it is justifiable. But some of it is, and it is up to us to follow up on it for the good of the game and the industry overall.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Beatnik.
For the most part you speak with your mind and dont flame,. But dont call me a fan boy,.I dont preech the game or go to other game sites to spam how great eve is,.
The bottom line is,. if your getting yourself banned,then you did something to gain there attention and pissed them off. I dont beleave they take a second look at a rumor or yip yap from some player about a other.If they did they may need to hire a whole new staff just to read up and follow up on all the junk,and my god I bet theres a world of junk like that rolling in.
Eve keeps a log of everything,. it was intended for the players but im betting they use it to track players,if a newb gets a 1000000000 isk jeeee where it come from,. well,. lets take a look at his wallet,. oh,. it came from so an so,. oh ,.well whata ya know! this dude is giving billions to everyone,
They would only ban the seller cus thats where it will stop,.and lets just say you will have a real guilty wallet and a account that loves to remake characters(probly trying to cover there ass) so ya It is you and Yes you did your guilty so eat that ban an shove it up your ***
I will stand by this till you can prove me other wise. till then i guess im a,....Fanatical Fanboi?
Lt:
Sorry if the fanboi reference hit you as a personal flame. I don't think you are a fanboi, but even you have to admit that a fanboi cannot concede that the developers can be wrong.
And I think you can concede that, man. Because I think its reasonable to think, "given everything I see, I think CCP probably did the right thing." Which is basically what you said in that last post, and I think that's reasonable.
What I don't think is reasonable is the thought of, "I don't need to see a thing to know that CCP did the right thing, because they are CCP, and CCP would never do something unless it was right." That's fanboi logic, and gets no cred with me, and probably gets no cred from you either.
The bottom line is, and I think we both agree here, is that if these guys did something wrong, like selling characters or ISK on eBay, they should be punished. And CCP did the right thing by punishing them.
But if these guys didn't do anything wrong, yet were thrown off of Tranquility anyway, they shouldn't be punished. And CCP did the wrong thing by punishing them.
The fact is, we don't know what CCP knew, and what they didn't. I'm kind of thinking that like you said, they had a lot of stuff to look at that just didn't add up in any other way that can be justified. That would be the reasonable thing to assume.
Then again man, it could be that what the OP is saying is true, because what would motivate him or her to talk about these acquintances who were thrown off of Tranquility for cheating, knowing full well how we as players feel about cheaters?
So yeah man, I don't know what happened. All I know is that its a good thing if cheaters get punished. But its a real bad thing if people who don't cheat get treated like cheaters, and get punished even if they are not cheating.
Maybe the difference between you and me man, is that you think its more important that cheaters get punished, even if some end up getting punished needlessly. And I think its more important that people who don't cheat not get treated like cheaters, even if some end up getting away with cheating. Neither way is the best way, but I'm not sure the best way can happen.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
That sounds scary! They should ban any account based on strong proof not only 'reports' from other players.
Beatnik.
Anyone can make a mistake,.I dont think ccp is perfect,.But im sure they have a way to indentify foul play and im sure they look for more then just a few things befor they drop the hammer,.
Maby the player had cheats or hack's on his system from other games,what ever the case may be,the ones that get banned I think are 90% at fault.or they are just starting somthing like this to see players like you an me go at it.
I have used a hack befor,I used map hack for diablo 2.They also busted me, it was no big deal allmost all the players I knew had been using it.I just got unlucky I guess and lost my account.
I been playing online games since 1998. The only time I ever used a cheat was in diablo 2 and that was the only time I got my self in trouble,and lost an account.
Theres no need for us to butt heads over this,if ya get banned you must have done it to your self.they can claim what they like cus they know theres others getting away with it,but they know dam well what they did.
Quote for posteriority