It's not worth it in the long term. I wouldn't want to ruin my credit scores over this.
This is where the companies get you: fear.
In reality, you have to do MULTIPLE chargebacks for several years in a row before it would EVER be an issue for your credit.
In my 20+ years of using a CC, I have done maybe 12 chargebacks total, and it has never, ever affected my credit score or credit worthiness (I have a 800+ credit rating today).
So this "threatening post" from Kakao is just that, a threat.
If a person's CC agreement or "local" consumer law allows people to chargeback, they can, period. The CC companies don't care what some other company says, YOU are their customer, if you dispute the charge, they don't get paid and are on the hook.
All the game company can do is ban the acct/CC used, which they would do anyway, but the customer gets their money back.
So don't be intimidated by a "big scary" post from some company, if you are allowed to chargeback, do it without fear.
Totally agree. See! Listen to this guy! Go do the chargeback. Then do it whenever you're unhappy with anything you buy! Not only do you get your money back, but you've already got everything you wanted out of the product so who really cares. That's called maximizing your value and it's not fraudulent at all.
I've never done a charge back nor ever will, but both in AA and BDO I have been tempted. I simply never support the developers or companies attached to these products ever again.
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It is not "taking a stand" but plain attempt of fraud
Prosecute us then.
Actually in addition to it possibly being fraud, people discussing collectively engaging in fraud is criminal conspiracy. Wouldn't that be fun. Finally does this pattern of fraud come under the umbrella that would allow a RICO action? That might bring MMORPG.com into the action with forfeiture of its assets and closure of the site.
I've never done a charge back nor ever will, but both in AA and BDO I have been tempted. I simply never support the developers or companies attached to these products ever again.
In Kakao's case, it doesn't even matter. They've already stated that they're dumping the bulk of generated revenue streams into a new 'boutique' style gaming business.
The jury will be directed to do is consider what a reasonable person would believe having heard what the dev/marketing person said. Worse, if the company tries to frame it as you are, it might be the game company misleading and therefore fraud. Credit card fraud. A big legal liability.
Do try that and report back how it works out for you....
But honestly... A: How many people can afford to take it to the court over big MAYBE...B: Have fun with your current and future banks after that.....
Face it.... Most clams will fall under "false" due to either incompetence or actual malign intentions..
But on the flip side... Most companies would not bother to spend the money needed to actually process these spikes in charge backs. Easier to not dispute them and just ban the card/account.
actually most claims were awareded refunds because daum refused to respond to the claims... they literally lost 10's of thousands of dollars... thats probably why they are doing this now
the amount of credit 'hit' from a single chargeback is negligible
If the chargeback is disputed and it goes into collections that will affect your credit score "fyi".
You are dramatically overestimating the resources at the disposal of a bare-bones team in the midst of a corprorate transition. Were Daum devotedly investigating every chargeback - were they performing their due diligence - then my Paypal claim wouldn't have sat unanswered for 7 full days.
So, they were presented, presumably, with an opportunity right there to 'head me off,' and the most they can manage is a vague, stock email threat? Once the Paypal judgment has gone against them, that's it - there's no 'collections' bit, laughable as the very idea is.
Again, they are farting in the faces of a bunch of flighty teenagers and hive mind 20-somethings, so it's no shock that some of you are inhaling and collapsing before them; a lifetime of hand-to-mouth, coddled existences has that effect. However, those of us with a spine will see this through, will get our money back, and will neither bow to ridiculous intimidation nor pseudo legalese from the MMORPG.com forum crowd.
All they have to do is send it to a collections agency.
They do a search among those "charging back" who purchased the game months ago and there you go. You don't really need huge resources for that.
No, that is not all they have to do. Paypal represents an agreement (and a middle man) between the buyer and the seller - it's why many of us use the service: because it isn't a direct credit card payment. The way Paypal works is that I (or, more accurately, my credit card) pay PP, and then PP pays Daum.
When Daum agreed to accept payments via Paypal, they also agreed to their terms of use (which are far more legally binding than any TOS), which illustrate quite clearly how the claims process works, and that the judgment of a claim is final.
Daum couldn't send me to collections - they'd have to send Paypal a collections letter. And that isn't happening.
i'm glad someone gets how financing works... a lot of people seem to throw around buzz words and extreme circumstances in the real world, but that's not even how collection agencies work... collection agencies have to be willing to buy the debt from the company in the first place and i couldn't see any collection agency buying "charge backs" from a video game publisher because they realise it would be frivolous.
What is with people these days, you bought a product... You PLAYED the product! Guess what, just because they change something that you don't like doesn't mean a chargeback is warranted. Seriously. Do you even think about the repurcussions of your actions other than how it affects YOU? You knew the game had a cash shop.... I have been following this game for sometime, and I decided to wait after the Archeage Fiasco for which I was out 2 founders accounts, oh and guess what!? I didn't charge that back either.
Charging back a game now because you don't like a change the developer made is seriously not cool. You bought the game, you played the game, you got everything that you ACTUALLY paid for. Why do you think you can turn around and get your money back. Nothing you have paid for has been taken away or changed.
Funny how 'not cool' has no bearing on my actions. It's almost as if the collective scorn of a handful of hopeless sycophants doesn't in any way alter how I view the world, or what deeds I undertake. What sorcery is this!?
I am far from a Sycophant. I do however think of people other than myself, like I don't know... the people that are working hard on a game that you played, and decide you can take your money back, do you really think that they need to be out of work? Did you not get what you paid for? "Not Cool" was me trying to be nice. If you really don't care about the scorn then why even bother replying to my post? Perhaps deep down I struck a cord, and you know what you are doing is inherently selfish and wrong.
What you do with your money is your business, I just want people to start thinking about the consequences of their actions as opposed to the ME ME ME attitude that is prevalent in society today. I work hard for my money, and so do the developers... If I got what I paid for then, they deserve their dues.
maybe publishers should start to think about the consequences of their actions too, when they release patch after patch of missing / buggy content, patch notes that don't reflect the changes and ask they community to tell them what is or isnt changed / support tickets that takes weeks or months to get replied to and general poor professionalism...
everyone is always saying "speak with your wallets" but then people do by charging back a product they are clearly unhappy with and everyone jumps on them about it. you can't have it both ways, not buying a game before launch because it might not be what you want or you don't agree with decisions they have been made.. to preordering a game you never got to try first and then discovering that it's a mess and they continually make it worse, vote with your wallet against late / rushed / broken / imcomplete content.
If you make a good product your customers will be satisfied and will be happy to play and pay. They won't seek charge backs. No matter how you try to spin this, we all know Daum/Kakao intended to monetize the game exactly how they are doing it and they played this down intentionally to entice consumers to buy their game knowing those consumers would not have otherwise done so. So I don't feel sorry for Daum/Kakao at all. They brought it on themselves.
If you make a good product your customers will be satisfied and will be happy to play and pay. They won't seek charge backs. No matter how you try to spin this, we all know Daum/Kakao intended to monetize the game exactly how they are doing it and they played this down intentionally to entice consumers to buy their game knowing those consumers would not have otherwise done so. So I don't feel sorry for Daum/Kakao at all. They brought it on themselves.
Over time if people can get away with this. So group of thousands people start to charge back months later. Feel they didn't get there way at the end in a game. Will be the death to every game or mmo out there. To much risk when no mmo is out there will make everyone happy. Thousands of people will hate a game for many reason. Like Blizzard lied about vallina paladin on there web site and there book in the box. It was not the paladin I am playing. So should I start to charge back?
That's is why a lot company have ToS and make people to agree to it. So people can't control there game even if they are just buying access.
the amount of credit 'hit' from a single chargeback is negligible
If the chargeback is disputed and it goes into collections that will affect your credit score "fyi".
I worry about my 831 credit score.
Look, I hate hearing about people who use chargeback as a way of getting a chance to play a game for free. I Personally think that could be fraud. CC companies need to look at both sides in chargebacks. If a player does this often, something needs to be looked at. Game companies need to be looked at was well to see if there is a significant number of chargebacks for a game.
I don't disagree.
It's not like companies have never done things that were "wrong".
And you may be correct in that it might be considered a type of fraud. What will probably happen, as I've mentioned, is that these institutions (or even paypal) will eventually get caught up and implement procedures to deal with people who use chargebacks regularly.
I also imagine that some companies might get sick if it and not allow paypal (not sure if they can do that but if some companies don't accept things like Amex then maybe it is).
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What is with people these days, you bought a product... You PLAYED the product! Guess what, just because they change something that you don't like doesn't mean a chargeback is warranted. Seriously. Do you even think about the repurcussions of your actions other than how it affects YOU? You knew the game had a cash shop.... I have been following this game for sometime, and I decided to wait after the Archeage Fiasco for which I was out 2 founders accounts, oh and guess what!? I didn't charge that back either.
Charging back a game now because you don't like a change the developer made is seriously not cool. You bought the game, you played the game, you got everything that you ACTUALLY paid for. Why do you think you can turn around and get your money back. Nothing you have paid for has been taken away or changed.
Funny how 'not cool' has no bearing on my actions. It's almost as if the collective scorn of a handful of hopeless sycophants doesn't in any way alter how I view the world, or what deeds I undertake. What sorcery is this!?
I am far from a Sycophant. I do however think of people other than myself, like I don't know... the people that are working hard on a game that you played, and decide you can take your money back, do you really think that they need to be out of work? Did you not get what you paid for? "Not Cool" was me trying to be nice. If you really don't care about the scorn then why even bother replying to my post? Perhaps deep down I struck a cord, and you know what you are doing is inherently selfish and wrong.
What you do with your money is your business, I just want people to start thinking about the consequences of their actions as opposed to the ME ME ME attitude that is prevalent in society today. I work hard for my money, and so do the developers... If I got what I paid for then, they deserve their dues.
maybe publishers should start to think about the consequences of their actions too, when they release patch after patch of missing / buggy content, patch notes that don't reflect the changes and ask they community to tell them what is or isnt changed / support tickets that takes weeks or months to get replied to and general poor professionalism...
everyone is always saying "speak with your wallets" but then people do by charging back a product they are clearly unhappy with and everyone jumps on them about it. you can't have it both ways, not buying a game before launch because it might not be what you want or you don't agree with decisions they have been made.. to preordering a game you never got to try first and then discovering that it's a mess and they continually make it worse, vote with your wallet against late / rushed / broken / imcomplete content.
Charging back the price of a game you've been playing and enjoying for months isn't 'speaking with your wallet.' It's committing fraud. Especially when the company told you from the freaking beginning that this could happen. There was no form of duplicity on their part, no legally or morally questionable conduct. And no, you being too lazy to read the available information isn't an excuse.
I get the feeling that the people doing chargebacks are the same kind of assholes who eat 90% of their meal at a restaurant, then call the waitress over to complain about how much it sucked and try to get it taken off their bill.
People like them are the reason developers don't want to make MMOs anymore. I can't blame them. So many MMO players are just the whiniest, most fickle, and most entitled people around. You'd have to be insane to want to deal with that.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
I get the feeling that the people doing chargebacks are the same kind of assholes who eat 90% of their meal at a restaurant, then call the waitress over to complain about how much it sucked and try to get it taken off their bill.
No, but I do call the manager over when the food or service is crappy. And I just charged back a game from a company that lied to me. And there isn't anything you can do about it.
It is not "taking a stand" but plain attempt of fraud
Prosecute us then.
Actually in addition to it possibly being fraud, people discussing collectively engaging in fraud is criminal conspiracy. Wouldn't that be fun. Finally does this pattern of fraud come under the umbrella that would allow a RICO action? That might bring MMORPG.com into the action with forfeiture of its assets and closure of the site.
Ah the RICO statute applies to Organized Criminal Activity. The Statute works that if more than one person is named to be a conspirator in an organized crime, that all entities involved can be charged under a single case. This Statute is what ended Mafia-Based Organized Crime. In short, the first use of this statute was against Crime Families and their power.
As far as people posting thoughts in a forum, and bringing such people under charged based on the words that they say along with the thread starter..
There is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which was part of the repealed Title V of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which survived and became 47 U.S.C Section 230 which states:
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." Once a person survives a simple three-prong test on the matter, the person is protected from this.
I own a restaurant, and yes there are people like that. This however is a different story. Companies like this deserve it. Those assholes you re talking about are just trying to get something free. These people wanting a chargeback were lied to , totally different scenario.
All this nonsense could have been avoided if they just refunded peoples money. But the tactics theyre using show they obviously dont care about their 'customers' once they get that money.
But if someone has over 100 hours in game I dont think theyre entitled to a refund at that point. While people can argue degree all they want if you play something for that long youre getting some sort of entertainment during those hours. If the game changes at that point people can be debated also. But as a buy to play game the player loses a bit IMO.
In the end people have to do what I said ages ago STOP BUYING THESE GARBAGE GAMES. That would serve so many purposes and make so nay points they cant be underestimated.
BECAUSE people buy these cash grab games is the reason why these companies have the balls to make statements like the ones they did here.
If more games failed before they were ever released there would be a lot fewer dreamers coming out and begging for millions on kickstarter. Hopefully once a few of these big name over hyped ones finally get exposed that ship will sail as well. But the time line is stil too short now for full exposure. But we have seen time and time again all these games are great during development but once they get released theyre the worst game ever.
Black Desert players even had a few years and two previous generations of the game to see what it was, so in some cases I can see why no one that bought the game this time around deserves anything because they got what they deserved. But I dont like these companies strong arming people and acting like theyre a gift to the world.
It just shows how far this whole industry has come full circle. These small indy developers were the 'us against them' machine. Now that none of the 'them' are making MMOs anymore the 'us' have become them. That is why MMOs are dead now, and have been for along time because they all made by people who have way too much going on to actually be making a game 'for the love of the game' and theyre all making games for some other deeper reason.
While, it isn;'t designed to be a quick and easy way for you to defraud a merchant, it isn't as simple as just not receiving a good or service. You can dispute things that were not "delivered as agreed" You may dispute what you were given in relation to what was sold to you.
You are expected to first try and resolve your issue with the merchant. If that wasn't to your satisfaction, you can absolutely dispute it and it is then incumbent on the merchant to answer the dispute.\ with your creditor. Failure to do so typically results in your winning the dispute and having the funds returned.
If you make a habit of this and appear to be acting in a fraudulent manner, expect your credit card company to kick you to the curb.
Why am I posting this? Most gamers really are good people and I have seen an increase in crappy customer service and corporate arrogance. I've worked in the financial services industry for more than 25 years and have little tolerance for someone telling me,"I can't request I refund." I don't do it very often but so far I have proven them wrong 100% of the time (Knock on wood)
Not liking a game isn't a valid reason for a chargeback either. The game would have to be missing something that was promised or not function properly. I have received a refund a couple times in the past for games that didn't run because of bugs (before Steam and others offered guarantees)
Oh and chargebacks don't ever affect a credit score. Someone would have to win a judgment against you and the judgement would adversely affect your score.
i'm glad someone gets how financing works... a lot of people seem to throw around buzz words and extreme circumstances in the real world, but that's not even how collection agencies work... collection agencies have to be willing to buy the debt from the company in the first place and i couldn't see any collection agency buying "charge backs" from a video game publisher because they realise it would be frivolous.
i'm glad you see through the BS
um, I think you need to understand how the business of finance works. There is more than one type of debt collector.
The debt collector you are talking about is the type of business that buys debt when it looks like the money might not be collected by the creditor.
Another type of debt collector makes money off of collecting debts and the more they collect the more money they make.
Now, will a video game company use a debt collector? No idea, but if Kakao (or whatever they are called) decides they want to threaten people or make examples then they could.
edit: I'll add that though there are debt collectors who specialize in certain types of debt, one can have one come after them for small amounts.
And the title of this thread should really be Players and Chargebacks: Kakao making a threat, because that is really all it is.
Yeah it's kinda like this.
Had a friend that does buy EA games from Origin store on different accounts, plays them, then charge-backs EA... EA always sends the same "threat" but he always get to play the game and once done with it gets the money back.
To avoid getting any problems with this all he does is create new origin accounts, and simply generating temporary CC's from his bank acc. service. And games for free for him it is.
Your friend is a criminal, consider not associating with him in the future.
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I know it won't happen, but i hope the company wins this one. What the company here did is really no different than a developer taking their game to a f2p model. It goes with the genre, and this isnt even something shady like a bait and switch.
There are worse things that companies have done, such as the NGE being released immediately following an expansion (which refunds were given) or things like Rift selling a year sub bundle with an expansion while actively working on the f2p transition. These are examples of a bait and switch tactic. And I'm pretty sure Trion gave refunds for people that requested too. Its very, very rare that refunds wont be given if they are valid.
This is not a case where a refund would be valid. I understand some players may be upset that someone else just bought something that they earned, but its not like what they earned has been taken away from them. Players requesting charge backs are 100% in the wrong here. Not that it isn't a shitty move by the developer, but its not a fraudulent one.
IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.
People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.
Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.
A lot depends on how the game isn't as represented. If they make specific claims like having 10 classes, then you buy the game and see that it only has 5 classes and the 10 was a complete lie, that's one thing. But if they say the game is fun and in your opinion it isn't, that's not false advertising. That's just a difference of opinion.
What often happens is that game developers make some claims about their game, then players mentally fill in details themselves consistent with what the developer promised. The developers deliver what they promised, but not what players expected, because it matches what the developers said but not the details that players filled in. And then players scream that they were misled.
IF a game isn't as it was represented, the chargeback is legit. Here is the problem these game companies have: While they are hyping up their games early and often, they frequently say things that don't match the gameplay. That means the game isn't how it was represented.
People have to remember, in America, there are laws covering this. Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Credit Billing Act. Be good consumers.
Now using chargeback as a way to play for free might be considered fraud.
Using a chargeback to gain access to a service or use a product for free is fraud, not "might be considered".
The logic for how people interpret what a developer says in an interview and what a product promises to deliver are two different things. This is the very reason gamers get their panties in a twist over what they hear and what is actually promised, especially prior to release.
Did the developer make a promise prior to release that they guarantee a game will have feature X implemented in a specific manner. OR did they hear the developer talk about a feature they plan on implementing that got scrapped prior to release and slap the "promise" on it themselves because of their own unrealistic expectations?
In this case Daum/Kakao had explicitly said they may sell or change the way they sell digital bits in the game at some point in the future specifically with regards to reselling those cash shop items to other players.
Players can get their f-ing panties in a bunch all they want. If this goes to trial, there will be a jury. If the statements are given with intent and the consumer buys in on that basis, that is reasonable justification for the charge back. This purchase isn't like a contract with a contractor building something. The jury will be directed to do is consider what a reasonable person would believe having heard what the dev/marketing person said. Worse, if the company tries to frame it as you are, it might be the game company misleading and therefore fraud. Credit card fraud. A big legal liability.
I doubt lawyers would take on such a case because it would get dismissed for being ridiculous. I mean, really:
Lawyer: Your honor, Daum Games has defrauded my client.
Judge: How did they commit fraud?
Lawyer: A game had some items that weren't tradeable between players, and they made them tradeable between players.
Judge: So? Where's the fraud here?
Lawyer: But this makes the game pay to win!
Judge: You might want to dismiss your lawsuit quickly before I sanction you for wasting this court's time.
Daum is just trying to scare.. Its legal by so many other reasons and they wont ban cause they are to lazy or understaffed to check
If you do a chargeback in any online game, you're pretty much guaranteed to get a permanent ban for it. Even if the chargeback is legitimate, you can probably still expect a permanent ban. If they can, they'll ban you from any other games they're involved with, too.
If you have a legitimate case for money to be refunded, you talk to the company first without initiating a chargeback. They'll likely refund it if it's an error on their part, or even a mistake on your part that you inform them of as soon as possible and don't take advantage of (e.g., you meant to buy $10 in item mall cash, not $100, inform them immediately, and don't spend any of the item mall cash until the situation is resolved). No businesses like to be on the losing end of chargeback claims, and refunding your money voluntarily is cheaper on their end than having it forcibly refunded via a contested chargeback.
But that's not at all similar to playing a game for months and then wanting your money back. Of course they're going to contest that; it would be irresponsible not to.
Here is my situation back when I bought BDO. When it released, I bought it and could not get it to download, after 4 days I finally got it to download from their site. It then took my multiple attempts to install it and update fully.
Then it would not launch. Meanwhile, I had originally submitted a support ticket for help.
I eventually got it to launch and at that point was so bitter and frustrated, I wanted a refund. I submitted a second ticket.
After waiting two weeks for a response, and not getting one, I requested a dispute through PayPal.
After the dispute time frame, and no response from Daum, I was issued a credit.
Exactly one month after submitting the second ticket, I got a response from Daum, not for my first ticket requesting help, but the second for the refund. The answer was automated and in short said no I cannot have a refund.
I got my money back and in good reason if you ask me. Their service is terrible.
Wanting a refund because you bought a game but couldn't play it is very, very different from buying a game, playing it for months, and then wanting a refund after all of that time.
can someone tell me what is Kakoa games? What happened to Daum?
Two years ago Daum merged with Kakao games, which mostly makes apps. They recently rebranded themselves to be just Kakao rather than having multiple entities under different names. Like how EA does with all the things it eats up.
Comments
Totally agree. See! Listen to this guy! Go do the chargeback. Then do it whenever you're unhappy with anything you buy! Not only do you get your money back, but you've already got everything you wanted out of the product so who really cares. That's called maximizing your value and it's not fraudulent at all.
Crazkanuk
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actually most claims were awareded refunds because daum refused to respond to the claims... they literally lost 10's of thousands of dollars... thats probably why they are doing this now
i'm glad someone gets how financing works... a lot of people seem to throw around buzz words and extreme circumstances in the real world, but that's not even how collection agencies work... collection agencies have to be willing to buy the debt from the company in the first place and i couldn't see any collection agency buying "charge backs" from a video game publisher because they realise it would be frivolous.
i'm glad you see through the BS
maybe publishers should start to think about the consequences of their actions too, when they release patch after patch of missing / buggy content, patch notes that don't reflect the changes and ask they community to tell them what is or isnt changed / support tickets that takes weeks or months to get replied to and general poor professionalism...
everyone is always saying "speak with your wallets" but then people do by charging back a product they are clearly unhappy with and everyone jumps on them about it. you can't have it both ways, not buying a game before launch because it might not be what you want or you don't agree with decisions they have been made.. to preordering a game you never got to try first and then discovering that it's a mess and they continually make it worse, vote with your wallet against late / rushed / broken / imcomplete content.
That's is why a lot company have ToS and make people to agree to it. So people can't control there game even if they are just buying access.
It's not like companies have never done things that were "wrong".
And you may be correct in that it might be considered a type of fraud. What will probably happen, as I've mentioned, is that these institutions (or even paypal) will eventually get caught up and implement procedures to deal with people who use chargebacks regularly.
I also imagine that some companies might get sick if it and not allow paypal (not sure if they can do that but if some companies don't accept things like Amex then maybe it is).
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I get the feeling that the people doing chargebacks are the same kind of assholes who eat 90% of their meal at a restaurant, then call the waitress over to complain about how much it sucked and try to get it taken off their bill.
People like them are the reason developers don't want to make MMOs anymore. I can't blame them. So many MMO players are just the whiniest, most fickle, and most entitled people around. You'd have to be insane to want to deal with that.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
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As far as people posting thoughts in a forum, and bringing such people under charged based on the words that they say along with the thread starter..
There is Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which was part of the repealed Title V of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which survived and became 47 U.S.C Section 230 which states:
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." Once a person survives a simple three-prong test on the matter, the person is protected from this.
But if someone has over 100 hours in game I dont think theyre entitled to a refund at that point. While people can argue degree all they want if you play something for that long youre getting some sort of entertainment during those hours. If the game changes at that point people can be debated also. But as a buy to play game the player loses a bit IMO.
In the end people have to do what I said ages ago STOP BUYING THESE GARBAGE GAMES. That would serve so many purposes and make so nay points they cant be underestimated.
BECAUSE people buy these cash grab games is the reason why these companies have the balls to make statements like the ones they did here.
If more games failed before they were ever released there would be a lot fewer dreamers coming out and begging for millions on kickstarter. Hopefully once a few of these big name over hyped ones finally get exposed that ship will sail as well. But the time line is stil too short now for full exposure. But we have seen time and time again all these games are great during development but once they get released theyre the worst game ever.
Black Desert players even had a few years and two previous generations of the game to see what it was, so in some cases I can see why no one that bought the game this time around deserves anything because they got what they deserved. But I dont like these companies strong arming people and acting like theyre a gift to the world.
It just shows how far this whole industry has come full circle. These small indy developers were the 'us against them' machine. Now that none of the 'them' are making MMOs anymore the 'us' have become them. That is why MMOs are dead now, and have been for along time because they all made by people who have way too much going on to actually be making a game 'for the love of the game' and theyre all making games for some other deeper reason.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0219-disputing-credit-card-charges
While, it isn;'t designed to be a quick and easy way for you to defraud a merchant, it isn't as simple as just not receiving a good or service. You can dispute things that were not "delivered as agreed" You may dispute what you were given in relation to what was sold to you.
You are expected to first try and resolve your issue with the merchant. If that wasn't to your satisfaction, you can absolutely dispute it and it is then incumbent on the merchant to answer the dispute.\ with your creditor. Failure to do so typically results in your winning the dispute and having the funds returned.
If you make a habit of this and appear to be acting in a fraudulent manner, expect your credit card company to kick you to the curb.
Why am I posting this? Most gamers really are good people and I have seen an increase in crappy customer service and corporate arrogance. I've worked in the financial services industry for more than 25 years and have little tolerance for someone telling me,"I can't request I refund." I don't do it very often but so far I have proven them wrong 100% of the time (Knock on wood) Not liking a game isn't a valid reason for a chargeback either. The game would have to be missing something that was promised or not function properly. I have received a refund a couple times in the past for games that didn't run because of bugs (before Steam and others offered guarantees) Oh and chargebacks don't ever affect a credit score. Someone would have to win a judgment against you and the judgement would adversely affect your score.
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
The debt collector you are talking about is the type of business that buys debt when it looks like the money might not be collected by the creditor.
Another type of debt collector makes money off of collecting debts and the more they collect the more money they make.
Now, will a video game company use a debt collector? No idea, but if Kakao (or whatever they are called) decides they want to threaten people or make examples then they could.
edit: I'll add that though there are debt collectors who specialize in certain types of debt, one can have one come after them for small amounts.
http://blog.credit.com/2013/04/a-debt-collector-came-after-me-for-8-97/
I once had a debt collector come after me for $40.00 for a medical bill I knew nothing about.
and this explains the type of debt collectors:
http://www.clearpoint.org/blog/types-of-debt-collectors-and-how-to-interact-with-them/
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are worse things that companies have done, such as the NGE being released immediately following an expansion (which refunds were given) or things like Rift selling a year sub bundle with an expansion while actively working on the f2p transition. These are examples of a bait and switch tactic. And I'm pretty sure Trion gave refunds for people that requested too. Its very, very rare that refunds wont be given if they are valid.
This is not a case where a refund would be valid. I understand some players may be upset that someone else just bought something that they earned, but its not like what they earned has been taken away from them. Players requesting charge backs are 100% in the wrong here. Not that it isn't a shitty move by the developer, but its not a fraudulent one.
What often happens is that game developers make some claims about their game, then players mentally fill in details themselves consistent with what the developer promised. The developers deliver what they promised, but not what players expected, because it matches what the developers said but not the details that players filled in. And then players scream that they were misled.
Lawyer: Your honor, Daum Games has defrauded my client.
Judge: How did they commit fraud?
Lawyer: A game had some items that weren't tradeable between players, and they made them tradeable between players.
Judge: So? Where's the fraud here?
Lawyer: But this makes the game pay to win!
Judge: You might want to dismiss your lawsuit quickly before I sanction you for wasting this court's time.
If you have a legitimate case for money to be refunded, you talk to the company first without initiating a chargeback. They'll likely refund it if it's an error on their part, or even a mistake on your part that you inform them of as soon as possible and don't take advantage of (e.g., you meant to buy $10 in item mall cash, not $100, inform them immediately, and don't spend any of the item mall cash until the situation is resolved). No businesses like to be on the losing end of chargeback claims, and refunding your money voluntarily is cheaper on their end than having it forcibly refunded via a contested chargeback.
But that's not at all similar to playing a game for months and then wanting your money back. Of course they're going to contest that; it would be irresponsible not to.
Two years ago Daum merged with Kakao games, which mostly makes apps. They recently rebranded themselves to be just Kakao rather than having multiple entities under different names. Like how EA does with all the things it eats up.