Consumers have to realize what they're up against. Companies hire professionals who have studied spending habits, psychological triggers, and all that data that Google, apps, software programs, and other sites collect on your habits to create profiles on you, what you've done in the past, and will probably do in the future. We think about our entertainment for hours at a time but the professionals think about how to get your money twentyfour hours a day.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.
MMORPG cash shops have evolved. Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money. The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.
In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money. You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.
Except i'm not skewing it my dear. I've been around mmorpgs since meridian 59. I was around when the term was coined and I damn well know what it means and does not mean. My narrow definition is the literal definition of it and while you may feel in your opinion that the definition refers to the broad approach that you want to take to defining it that doesn't make it so. It has been broadened over and over and over again to the point that it might as well be any freaking game in existence that is labeled an mmorpg at this point based on some of you people's crazy definitions. Your own personal definitions of words do not supersede the literal definition.
Ask someone that has actually played a p2w game if BDO is p2w and they'll laugh in your face saying you have no idea what pay 2 win is. I get aggravated because folks like you try and change and broaden definitions to suite your own narrative with how things are. Five years ago nothing about BDO would of been considered P2W even with the pearl shop to marketplace conversions. In fact five years ago BDO would of likely been praised for presenting a rather fair and balanced cash shop and allowing people a means to get cash shop items through in game means.
Paying to get something to sell in the hopes you progress a little bit faster has never and will never be pay 2 win except in the heads of the people trying to make p2w mean whatever the flavor of the month to attack is and keep adding to its meaning. I'm just waiting for the day that you people start calling p2p ionly game p2w so we can all laugh histerically at the fact that you've gotten so broad with the term you've essentially targeted all mmorpgs in existence, because the ever growing list is literally pretty much meaning everything but a straight up buy box pay to play sub model game at this point (which even WoW falls into some people's definitions of p2w with their instant level boosts and being able to sell sub token things for in game money)
The fact of the matter is the definition that keeps ever changing at anyone's whim is not the actual definition, but your own view of what it is. There is and has been an established definition since the term was around that was based on a very strict definition which I have repeated several times. Adding your own beliefs to that definition on top of the strict one changes and warps it over time and people feel they can slap the label onto literally anything they don't feel like spending money on in a f2p title at this point and that is literally what is happening. They continue to want more and more shit handed to them for nothing without adding as to "why" that is p2w beyond the usual "i think it's p2w" tripe that spews out of their mouths.
My opinion of the definition is based around what the definition was and remained when it was coined and not the bastardized definition that keeps broadening. The original intent of the term was to refer to a strict sense where you could only gain the most power by opening your wallet thereby "winning" particularly grievous in more PVP heavy games. People have taken that to somehow mean any means of getting ahead a little bit faster and skewed the original intent / meaning of it. Until BDO starts selling it's highest level gear, stat altering potions, or other shit in the cash shop that can't be attained any other way and literally gives people a leg up that no one can compete with them without opening their wallet they haven't crossed into the p2w realm by any stretch when taken for what p2w actually is.
The fact is they did the cash shop > marketplace thing in a respectable manner so that it could not be abused, they thought things through, and they did not lie to anyone despite the crap people have made up in their heads, The russian and KR versions have P2W items and those were removed from the US version. Being able to get 1/3rd (it is really more like 1/3.5) of what someone grinding can get doesn't magically mean the game has become p2w particularly when someone actually playing is much more likely to have TONS of money compared to the person literally trying to play using their real life money. That person literally would never be able to get ahead of a grinder and being able to try enchanting maybe one more time on the high end (if that) isn't going to break shit either so i fail to see how people can go on about the title being p2w in the least.
To further wit people love COSMETIC items. You can make a game that has a purely cosmetic cash shop and people will spend TONS of money on it. People are being picky about what costumes they want, what horse costumes they want, what pet they want etc. They want to have this visual look and that's why many are spending in BDO. You further proved my point that it is literally becoming about people not wanting to pay for things in games they expect everything for free like they are somehow entitled to it.
Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w. These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players. Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game. Then they added p2w on top of it. So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.
Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay 2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power.
Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean.
P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)
The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO.
Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean.
There are various levels of extremes when it comes to "P2W" in MMORPGs now days. While your above example is the most egregious form of P2W, it is not the only manner in which "P2WP manifests itself in MMORPGs. There are no "absolute definition" of "P2W." With the advent of the various forms of complicated versions of cash shop business models in MMORPGs, P2W has evolved to be a mattter of varying levels of extremes. They are all evil, its just a matter of picking your poison or having to put up with the lesser of the different variations of evil.
They are not all evil and the absolute definition is kind of literally the only thing that is pay 2 win. This whole "varying degrees" bull shit just further proves what I'm saying. You are basically broadening the meaning of the term over and over and over and over and over simply because you don't like a paid mechanic... Almost no mmorpg that uses micro transactions save for a few blatant ones are not actually pay to win. There is most definitely an absolute definition for what pay 2 win is and though there are varying versions of cash shops almost none of them manifest in a way that can be taken as pay 2 win unless you are skewing the definition of what pay 2 win is to suit your own ever broadening definition.
I've seen more and more crap added to what p2w is based off of people's opinions and them trying to make it stick, things that were never considered p2w and would of never of been considered p2w until more recently simply because people don't feel like paying for those things anymore.
... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.
MMORPG cash shops have evolved. Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money. The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.
In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money. You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.
And to further whit you gave the same basic definition which is the strict definition of it... Gaining an edge over another player that is not using real life money. There is no edge gained in BDO. You can't simply "buy your way to power" and that is where people seem to have lost a grip on things. The ghillie suit could be taken as pay 2 win to a very light degree, but again there are counters to it and again people needing those counters or a way to track people simply with a name tag are a problem in and of themselves. I wonder how bad those people would cry if we went back to old school mmorpgs where you could never see the person's name because outside of talking in chat there was literally no name tags or anything of the like. How absolutely salty their tears would taste because they can't see that guys name tag.
The biggest thign many people didn't have ANY issue with the game at all til this which gave so little money to players that it's laughable. Also the vocal minority that are actually using game forums is a splash in the bucket for a game's population. You think they didn't weigh pros and cons? Only about 20% of those people prolly did shit too.
The loudest whiners were pvp'ers that always want to be ahead of everyone else and would likely have a heart attack if someone playing less than them ever got to be on equal footing.
Kind of reminds me of a Dilbert where the pointy haired boss cancels a project, and then promotes that the project is going to do great. Dilbert asks if that is legal, and the boss says, there is no law against being optimistic.
Consumers have to realize what they're up against. Companies hire professionals who have studied spending habits, psychological triggers, and all that data that Google, apps, software programs, and other sites collect on your habits to create profiles on you, what you've done in the past, and will probably do in the future. We think about our entertainment for hours at a time but the professionals think about how to get your money twentyfour hours a day.
Very powerful, better than I can say.
People are looking for fun, after all why not ?..........Yet marketing is about getting as much as they can from the people simply trying to have fun !
... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.
MMORPG cash shops have evolved. Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money. The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.
In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money. You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.
And to further whit you gave the same basic definition which is the strict definition of it... Gaining an edge over another player that is not using real life money. There is no edge gained in BDO. You can't simply "buy your way to power" and that is where people seem to have lost a grip on things. The ghillie suit could be taken as pay 2 win to a very light degree, but again there are counters to it and again people needing those counters or a way to track people simply with a name tag are a problem in and of themselves. I wonder how bad those people would cry if we went back to old school mmorpgs where you could never see the person's name because outside of talking in chat there was literally no name tags or anything of the like. How absolutely salty their tears would taste because they can't see that guys name tag.
The biggest thign many people didn't have ANY issue with the game at all til this which gave so little money to players that it's laughable. Also the vocal minority that are actually using game forums is a splash in the bucket for a game's population. You think they didn't weigh pros and cons? Only about 20% of those people prolly did shit too.
The loudest whiners were pvp'ers that always want to be ahead of everyone else and would likely have a heart attack if someone playing less than them ever got to be on equal footing.
Again, the entire objective behind playing an MMORPG is the the development of your character via progression through journey by utilizing your own personal skills, qualities, abilities, determination and perseverance to overcome the challenges presented by the game through that journey. In an MMORPG, progress is power!
Progression is the "edge," and an equivalent form of "empowerment," not just in BDO but in every MMORPG!
Putting in the time developing your character, getting better, and successfully navigating through the challenges (Ie., journey) presented by the game is the entire point behind playing an MMORPG!A player is suppose to gain an edge by utilizing their own skills, qualities, abilities, by putting in time and effort and earning that advantage, not by buying an advantage with real life money that only serves to circumvent that journey or provide benefits that will add short cuts to that endeavor.
The only manner that a cash shop can ever be deemed not powerful or advantageous. Ie., P2W, is if the cash shop is comprised of nothing but cosmetic items. That's it! When items cross that border from customization to providing an advantage, or benefit, to a player through the use of real life money, that another player playing the game is not reaping an equal benefit from without the use of cash, that is an obvious definition of Pay to Win.
That's just common sense and anyone denying it, or defending the practice, is simply attempting to rationalize away the fact that they are being given a crutch in their effort to play the game on an equal playing field, by utilizing real life money to play on that equal playing field, over those who have earned it and did not utilizing real life money to get there.
I'm sorry, but no. What was done in regards to BDO was not a well executed plan, it's idiocy. Firstly, making a polished MMO with high end graphics, and feature loaded is literally the exact opposite of what you want to do if your plan is to create a cash grab. I.E. Look at No Man's Sky; Tons of hype, cool tech, lots of people buying into the idea behind it without actually knowing what features the game had (i.e. is it actually multiplayer or not). THAT is a cash grab.
BDO already had people's money. I knew many people who were breaking their frugal spending habits for that game, simply because they loved the game. Daum was already making bank off of BDO before they made changes to the cash shop. Hell, people were even willing to put up w/ the Camo suits even though that was fairly P2W in and of itself (arguably so, but still).
The tragedy of BDO is that it really didn't need to change that much to be successful in the West. Rather than catering to that idea, though, BDO did what a lot of asian companies do and pretended to accommodate the west while fully planning on doing business as usual. (and to be fair we tend to do the same to the East). And thus begin systematically ruining western appeal to their highly anticipated game.
If their goal was to sabotage their own game, then I would consider it a well executed plan. Anything else, not really.
Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w. These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players. Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game. Then they added p2w on top of it. So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.
Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay 2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power.
Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean.
P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)
The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO.
Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean.
There are various levels of extremes when it comes to "P2W" in MMORPGs now days. While your above example is the most egregious form of P2W, it is not the only manner in which "P2WP manifests itself in MMORPGs. There are no "absolute definition" of "P2W." With the advent of the various forms of complicated versions of cash shop business models in MMORPGs, P2W has evolved to be a mattter of varying levels of extremes. They are all evil, its just a matter of picking your poison or having to put up with the lesser of the different variations of evil.
BDO's model is very complicated, and was arguably p2w from the start, but it certainly became more so over time and will continue to do so without a doubt as the price of costumes eventually goes up in the marketplace, along with whatever new "feature" they come up with.
The game is basically built from the ground-up to extract money from you to gain advantage in the game.
Our version had key elements removed from that equation, but it was still far worse than a cosmetic only shop.
10% exp on $30 costume, not to mention the only way to look good initially remove nameplate from guillie suit for psuedo stealth in pvp, $30 4 pets to autoloot = much more loot/hour- $40 Weight increases= I dunno, $10 Game has no content- only grind, which is intentional as it makes you want to avoid as much of it as possible.
These are only the "mandatory" items to be "competative". There are far more items you can buy to gain advantage, as well.
You can say and I have argued that all these things are OK, although they suck and definitely should not be part of the game, but only because the game is not p2w and once you spent that money you were good to go.
Now that it's p2w, those things are no longer OK (and really were not to begin with).
Also, @Doug-B, you keep saying this is good because it fights RMT- you clearly haven't played the game because otherwise you'd know there was no real RMT in the game because there is no player trade and the marketplace is restricted. There are a few "companies" that claim to sell you silver but really they are just stealing credit card info.
I never bothered with the game because I read about it and knew what it would be. I have to side with the developers on this one. Gamers need to stop projecting their hopes and fantasies on games and actually understand what the game is all about.
If I knew enough to stay clear of this game, no reason others couldn't figure it out.
... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.
MMORPG cash shops have evolved. Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money. The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.
In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money. You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.
Except i'm not skewing it my dear. I've been around mmorpgs since meridian 59. I was around when the term was coined and I damn well know what it means and does not mean. My narrow definition is the literal definition of it and while you may feel in your opinion that the definition refers to the broad approach that you want to take to defining it that doesn't make it so. It has been broadened over and over and over again to the point that it might as well be any freaking game in existence that is labeled an mmorpg at this point based on some of you people's crazy definitions. Your own personal definitions of words do not supersede the literal definition.
Ask someone that has actually played a p2w game if BDO is p2w and they'll laugh in your face saying you have no idea what pay 2 win is. I get aggravated because folks like you try and change and broaden definitions to suite your own narrative with how things are. Five years ago nothing about BDO would of been considered P2W even with the pearl shop to marketplace conversions. In fact five years ago BDO would of likely been praised for presenting a rather fair and balanced cash shop and allowing people a means to get cash shop items through in game means.
Paying to get something to sell in the hopes you progress a little bit faster has never and will never be pay 2 win except in the heads of the people trying to make p2w mean whatever the flavor of the month to attack is and keep adding to its meaning. I'm just waiting for the day that you people start calling p2p ionly game p2w so we can all laugh histerically at the fact that you've gotten so broad with the term you've essentially targeted all mmorpgs in existence, because the ever growing list is literally pretty much meaning everything but a straight up buy box pay to play sub model game at this point (which even WoW falls into some people's definitions of p2w with their instant level boosts and being able to sell sub token things for in game money)
The fact of the matter is the definition that keeps ever changing at anyone's whim is not the actual definition, but your own view of what it is. There is and has been an established definition since the term was around that was based on a very strict definition which I have repeated several times. Adding your own beliefs to that definition on top of the strict one changes and warps it over time and people feel they can slap the label onto literally anything they don't feel like spending money on in a f2p title at this point and that is literally what is happening. They continue to want more and more shit handed to them for nothing without adding as to "why" that is p2w beyond the usual "i think it's p2w" tripe that spews out of their mouths.
My opinion of the definition is based around what the definition was and remained when it was coined and not the bastardized definition that keeps broadening. The original intent of the term was to refer to a strict sense where you could only gain the most power by opening your wallet thereby "winning" particularly grievous in more PVP heavy games. People have taken that to somehow mean any means of getting ahead a little bit faster and skewed the original intent / meaning of it. Until BDO starts selling it's highest level gear, stat altering potions, or other shit in the cash shop that can't be attained any other way and literally gives people a leg up that no one can compete with them without opening their wallet they haven't crossed into the p2w realm by any stretch when taken for what p2w actually is.
The fact is they did the cash shop > marketplace thing in a respectable manner so that it could not be abused, they thought things through, and they did not lie to anyone despite the crap people have made up in their heads, The russian and KR versions have P2W items and those were removed from the US version. Being able to get 1/3rd (it is really more like 1/3.5) of what someone grinding can get doesn't magically mean the game has become p2w particularly when someone actually playing is much more likely to have TONS of money compared to the person literally trying to play using their real life money. That person literally would never be able to get ahead of a grinder and being able to try enchanting maybe one more time on the high end (if that) isn't going to break shit either so i fail to see how people can go on about the title being p2w in the least.
To further wit people love COSMETIC items. You can make a game that has a purely cosmetic cash shop and people will spend TONS of money on it. People are being picky about what costumes they want, what horse costumes they want, what pet they want etc. They want to have this visual look and that's why many are spending in BDO. You further proved my point that it is literally becoming about people not wanting to pay for things in games they expect everything for free like they are somehow entitled to it.
I agree and like this post . :-) edit :
As distance tests a horse’s strength, so does time reveal a person’s real character.
Umm, so buying premium membership in a mmo makes it pay to win? Not really... It just gives some perks to make things easier for the player. I think you are just trying to find reasons to quit the game itself. No matter what they added to game shouldnt change your mind.
World of Warcraft is a little bit of trying to be like Guild Wars 2. Is it going to make people dislike the game itself? No, from my view I really dont like GW2. But I definetly will be enjoying Legion. It is pretty normal mate. The thing, you call Pay2Win is not more than a myth:
Think about this way, lets say they made a game and they called it XYZ; this game hasnt got any pay2win features in-game shop. But, there always will be power levelers, account boosters, gold sellers etc. So what happened? Producer made a flawless game but still it is pay2win because other options are always will be exist.
Other hand, it is a sign actually company is not making enough money, so they are desperate for it. Desperate people, does desperate things... We all know that tale.
I think you are one of these casual players who plays mmo`s a couple hours in a week and expect to be number 1. Who walks around the map and thinks beatifull, catch pictures in nice places. Never grind or involve to story... After months later rage quit because you read some ridicilous article about patch notes/suggestion topics. Dont take it personal but this is what I see from your post. Cheers...
... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.
MMORPG cash shops have evolved. Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money. The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.
In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money. You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.
Except i'm not skewing it my dear. I've been around mmorpgs since meridian 59. I was around when the term was coined and I damn well know what it means and does not mean. My narrow definition is the literal definition of it and while you may feel in your opinion that the definition refers to the broad approach that you want to take to defining it that doesn't make it so. It has been broadened over and over and over again to the point that it might as well be any freaking game in existence that is labeled an mmorpg at this point based on some of you people's crazy definitions. Your own personal definitions of words do not supersede the literal definition.
Ask someone that has actually played a p2w game if BDO is p2w and they'll laugh in your face saying you have no idea what pay 2 win is. I get aggravated because folks like you try and change and broaden definitions to suite your own narrative with how things are. Five years ago nothing about BDO would of been considered P2W even with the pearl shop to marketplace conversions. In fact five years ago BDO would of likely been praised for presenting a rather fair and balanced cash shop and allowing people a means to get cash shop items through in game means.
Paying to get something to sell in the hopes you progress a little bit faster has never and will never be pay 2 win except in the heads of the people trying to make p2w mean whatever the flavor of the month to attack is and keep adding to its meaning. I'm just waiting for the day that you people start calling p2p ionly game p2w so we can all laugh histerically at the fact that you've gotten so broad with the term you've essentially targeted all mmorpgs in existence, because the ever growing list is literally pretty much meaning everything but a straight up buy box pay to play sub model game at this point (which even WoW falls into some people's definitions of p2w with their instant level boosts and being able to sell sub token things for in game money)
The fact of the matter is the definition that keeps ever changing at anyone's whim is not the actual definition, but your own view of what it is. There is and has been an established definition since the term was around that was based on a very strict definition which I have repeated several times. Adding your own beliefs to that definition on top of the strict one changes and warps it over time and people feel they can slap the label onto literally anything they don't feel like spending money on in a f2p title at this point and that is literally what is happening. They continue to want more and more shit handed to them for nothing without adding as to "why" that is p2w beyond the usual "i think it's p2w" tripe that spews out of their mouths.
My opinion of the definition is based around what the definition was and remained when it was coined and not the bastardized definition that keeps broadening. The original intent of the term was to refer to a strict sense where you could only gain the most power by opening your wallet thereby "winning" particularly grievous in more PVP heavy games. People have taken that to somehow mean any means of getting ahead a little bit faster and skewed the original intent / meaning of it. Until BDO starts selling it's highest level gear, stat altering potions, or other shit in the cash shop that can't be attained any other way and literally gives people a leg up that no one can compete with them without opening their wallet they haven't crossed into the p2w realm by any stretch when taken for what p2w actually is.
The fact is they did the cash shop > marketplace thing in a respectable manner so that it could not be abused, they thought things through, and they did not lie to anyone despite the crap people have made up in their heads, The russian and KR versions have P2W items and those were removed from the US version. Being able to get 1/3rd (it is really more like 1/3.5) of what someone grinding can get doesn't magically mean the game has become p2w particularly when someone actually playing is much more likely to have TONS of money compared to the person literally trying to play using their real life money. That person literally would never be able to get ahead of a grinder and being able to try enchanting maybe one more time on the high end (if that) isn't going to break shit either so i fail to see how people can go on about the title being p2w in the least.
To further wit people love COSMETIC items. You can make a game that has a purely cosmetic cash shop and people will spend TONS of money on it. People are being picky about what costumes they want, what horse costumes they want, what pet they want etc. They want to have this visual look and that's why many are spending in BDO. You further proved my point that it is literally becoming about people not wanting to pay for things in games they expect everything for free like they are somehow entitled to it.
I agree and like this post . :-) edit :
As distance tests a horse’s strength, so does time reveal a person’s real character.
Rather than engage in verbiage contest, i'll put it simply Real money buys pearl shop items which is then sold for silver which is used to upgrade/buy gear = pay to win.
I'M sorry but don't most Asian mmo go in this direction down the road anyways? Why is anyone surprised by any of this. I can see if you never played an Asian mmo before but if you have then you should know better and not be pissed about anything they do to make money.
Umm, so buying premium membership in a mmo makes it pay to win? Not really... It just gives some perks to make things easier for the player. I think you are just trying to find reasons to quit the game itself. No matter what they added to game shouldnt change your mind.
World of Warcraft is a little bit of trying to be like Guild Wars 2. Is it going to make people dislike the game itself? No, from my view I really dont like GW2. But I definetly will be enjoying Legion. It is pretty normal mate. The thing, you call Pay2Win is not more than a myth:
Think about this way, lets say they made a game and they called it XYZ; this game hasnt got any pay2win features in-game shop. But, there always will be power levelers, account boosters, gold sellers etc. So what happened? Producer made a flawless game but still it is pay2win because other options are always will be exist.
Other hand, it is a sign actually company is not making enough money, so they are desperate for it. Desperate people, does desperate things... We all know that tale.
I think you are one of these casual players who plays mmo`s a couple hours in a week and expect to be number 1. Who walks around the map and thinks beatifull, catch pictures in nice places. Never grind or involve to story... After months later rage quit because you read some ridicilous article about patch notes/suggestion topics. Dont take it personal but this is what I see from your post. Cheers...
Edit - Typo.
I like this post too . I must say ... I don't like to dispute with anyone so time should help about this matter and me now playing BDO Korea Server can say one thing that it's not easy to win the game by use real money to buy a very strong ID ( with very good upgraded items ) but same as always.... hater gonna hate and many gold farmers don't like the BDO bcoz they must upgraded all ID ( characters and items ) for sell , not one item . for me now...if I like BDO then play , if don't just leave ...that it's...
... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.
MMORPG cash shops have evolved. Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money. The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.
In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money. You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.
Except i'm not skewing it my dear. I've been around mmorpgs since meridian 59. I was around when the term was coined and I damn well know what it means and does not mean. My narrow definition is the literal definition of it and while you may feel in your opinion that the definition refers to the broad approach that you want to take to defining it that doesn't make it so. It has been broadened over and over and over again to the point that it might as well be any freaking game in existence that is labeled an mmorpg at this point based on some of you people's crazy definitions. Your own personal definitions of words do not supersede the literal definition.
Ask someone that has actually played a p2w game if BDO is p2w and they'll laugh in your face saying you have no idea what pay 2 win is. I get aggravated because folks like you try and change and broaden definitions to suite your own narrative with how things are. Five years ago nothing about BDO would of been considered P2W even with the pearl shop to marketplace conversions. In fact five years ago BDO would of likely been praised for presenting a rather fair and balanced cash shop and allowing people a means to get cash shop items through in game means.
Paying to get something to sell in the hopes you progress a little bit faster has never and will never be pay 2 win except in the heads of the people trying to make p2w mean whatever the flavor of the month to attack is and keep adding to its meaning. I'm just waiting for the day that you people start calling p2p ionly game p2w so we can all laugh histerically at the fact that you've gotten so broad with the term you've essentially targeted all mmorpgs in existence, because the ever growing list is literally pretty much meaning everything but a straight up buy box pay to play sub model game at this point (which even WoW falls into some people's definitions of p2w with their instant level boosts and being able to sell sub token things for in game money)
The fact of the matter is the definition that keeps ever changing at anyone's whim is not the actual definition, but your own view of what it is. There is and has been an established definition since the term was around that was based on a very strict definition which I have repeated several times. Adding your own beliefs to that definition on top of the strict one changes and warps it over time and people feel they can slap the label onto literally anything they don't feel like spending money on in a f2p title at this point and that is literally what is happening. They continue to want more and more shit handed to them for nothing without adding as to "why" that is p2w beyond the usual "i think it's p2w" tripe that spews out of their mouths.
My opinion of the definition is based around what the definition was and remained when it was coined and not the bastardized definition that keeps broadening. The original intent of the term was to refer to a strict sense where you could only gain the most power by opening your wallet thereby "winning" particularly grievous in more PVP heavy games. People have taken that to somehow mean any means of getting ahead a little bit faster and skewed the original intent / meaning of it. Until BDO starts selling it's highest level gear, stat altering potions, or other shit in the cash shop that can't be attained any other way and literally gives people a leg up that no one can compete with them without opening their wallet they haven't crossed into the p2w realm by any stretch when taken for what p2w actually is.
The fact is they did the cash shop > marketplace thing in a respectable manner so that it could not be abused, they thought things through, and they did not lie to anyone despite the crap people have made up in their heads, The russian and KR versions have P2W items and those were removed from the US version. Being able to get 1/3rd (it is really more like 1/3.5) of what someone grinding can get doesn't magically mean the game has become p2w particularly when someone actually playing is much more likely to have TONS of money compared to the person literally trying to play using their real life money. That person literally would never be able to get ahead of a grinder and being able to try enchanting maybe one more time on the high end (if that) isn't going to break shit either so i fail to see how people can go on about the title being p2w in the least.
To further wit people love COSMETIC items. You can make a game that has a purely cosmetic cash shop and people will spend TONS of money on it. People are being picky about what costumes they want, what horse costumes they want, what pet they want etc. They want to have this visual look and that's why many are spending in BDO. You further proved my point that it is literally becoming about people not wanting to pay for things in games they expect everything for free like they are somehow entitled to it.
I agree and like this post . :-) edit :
As distance tests a horse’s strength, so does time reveal a person’s real character.
Rather than engage in verbiage contest, i'll put it simply Real money buys pearl shop items which is then sold for silver which is used to upgrade/buy gear = pay to win.
Except it's not P2W no matter how simply you try to phrase it.
Until it buys you something unobtainable by reasonable means in game it's not P2W.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
FFXIV is an asian mmorpg where you have to buy the game, pay a sub to access the game and has "optional" items you can buy which is updated on a monthly basis. This is a normal thing for asian mmorpgs to have cash shops, regardless of models.
... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.
MMORPG cash shops have evolved. Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money. The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.
In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money. You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.
Except i'm not skewing it my dear. I've been around mmorpgs since meridian 59. I was around when the term was coined and I damn well know what it means and does not mean. My narrow definition is the literal definition of it and while you may feel in your opinion that the definition refers to the broad approach that you want to take to defining it that doesn't make it so. It has been broadened over and over and over again to the point that it might as well be any freaking game in existence that is labeled an mmorpg at this point based on some of you people's crazy definitions. Your own personal definitions of words do not supersede the literal definition.
Ask someone that has actually played a p2w game if BDO is p2w and they'll laugh in your face saying you have no idea what pay 2 win is. I get aggravated because folks like you try and change and broaden definitions to suite your own narrative with how things are. Five years ago nothing about BDO would of been considered P2W even with the pearl shop to marketplace conversions. In fact five years ago BDO would of likely been praised for presenting a rather fair and balanced cash shop and allowing people a means to get cash shop items through in game means.
Paying to get something to sell in the hopes you progress a little bit faster has never and will never be pay 2 win except in the heads of the people trying to make p2w mean whatever the flavor of the month to attack is and keep adding to its meaning. I'm just waiting for the day that you people start calling p2p ionly game p2w so we can all laugh histerically at the fact that you've gotten so broad with the term you've essentially targeted all mmorpgs in existence, because the ever growing list is literally pretty much meaning everything but a straight up buy box pay to play sub model game at this point (which even WoW falls into some people's definitions of p2w with their instant level boosts and being able to sell sub token things for in game money)
The fact of the matter is the definition that keeps ever changing at anyone's whim is not the actual definition, but your own view of what it is. There is and has been an established definition since the term was around that was based on a very strict definition which I have repeated several times. Adding your own beliefs to that definition on top of the strict one changes and warps it over time and people feel they can slap the label onto literally anything they don't feel like spending money on in a f2p title at this point and that is literally what is happening. They continue to want more and more shit handed to them for nothing without adding as to "why" that is p2w beyond the usual "i think it's p2w" tripe that spews out of their mouths.
My opinion of the definition is based around what the definition was and remained when it was coined and not the bastardized definition that keeps broadening. The original intent of the term was to refer to a strict sense where you could only gain the most power by opening your wallet thereby "winning" particularly grievous in more PVP heavy games. People have taken that to somehow mean any means of getting ahead a little bit faster and skewed the original intent / meaning of it. Until BDO starts selling it's highest level gear, stat altering potions, or other shit in the cash shop that can't be attained any other way and literally gives people a leg up that no one can compete with them without opening their wallet they haven't crossed into the p2w realm by any stretch when taken for what p2w actually is.
The fact is they did the cash shop > marketplace thing in a respectable manner so that it could not be abused, they thought things through, and they did not lie to anyone despite the crap people have made up in their heads, The russian and KR versions have P2W items and those were removed from the US version. Being able to get 1/3rd (it is really more like 1/3.5) of what someone grinding can get doesn't magically mean the game has become p2w particularly when someone actually playing is much more likely to have TONS of money compared to the person literally trying to play using their real life money. That person literally would never be able to get ahead of a grinder and being able to try enchanting maybe one more time on the high end (if that) isn't going to break shit either so i fail to see how people can go on about the title being p2w in the least.
To further wit people love COSMETIC items. You can make a game that has a purely cosmetic cash shop and people will spend TONS of money on it. People are being picky about what costumes they want, what horse costumes they want, what pet they want etc. They want to have this visual look and that's why many are spending in BDO. You further proved my point that it is literally becoming about people not wanting to pay for things in games they expect everything for free like they are somehow entitled to it.
I agree and like this post . :-) edit :
As distance tests a horse’s strength, so does time reveal a person’s real character.
Rather than engage in verbiage contest, i'll put it simply Real money buys pearl shop items which is then sold for silver which is used to upgrade/buy gear = pay to win.
Except it's not P2W no matter how simply you try to phrase it.
Until it buys you something unobtainable by reasonable means in game it's not P2W.
Not even a debatable point so...
/ mic drop.
Im sick of the term P2W. Not because I support cash shop monetization schemes that have come to dominate the MMO genre but because I abhore them. I feel the very phrase P2W is now in itself a shield for various practices that make studios money while making games less and less enjoyable. Instead of arguing the question 'are they screwing us over and making gameplay miserable on purpose to sell shit in their cash shop?', people are arguing the semantics of what is P2W.
People are complaining about P2W in BDO and I basically thought it was true up until I started getting more into it. The cash shop items are hardly even purchased and sold for gold since they cap out the amount that they sell for at certain prices, and the amount of silver is trivial compared to what you can earn on your own. I made about 15 million in 30 minutes and I'm not even geared or close to 56, and the 15 dollar pack sells for 9.5 million. They go up occasionally but honestly that's nothing. I don't even see the point in selling them unless you happen to just need silver that bad and don't feel like going out and doing anything.
The pets are a little different. I can't say that it isn't super nice to have them auto looting, but that's simply just a convenience feature, which isn't necessary IMO. Those also rarely get sold on the AH, I've never seen one go up in chat ever. Since you can't trade gold or a majority of items with other players, nobody is buying them to sell for mass amounts.
The monthly fee is a bit obnoxious, the tax reduction alone is too nice not to have but it isn't entirely necessary. It's annoying as hell seeing something go up for like a million and only getting 600k or whatever from the sale.
You are right in stating that they know how to pull customers in, but I don't think it's for as many pay to win reasons as everyone seems to think (except maybe the value packs for the tax benefits alone).
DMKano said: By they you mean community manager Jouska who doesn't have the inside information, he is not even Korean, he is treated as an outsider even as an employee. Ask any lower position in a Korean run company how non native Koreans are treated.
Having worked in Korea for 10+ years as a foreigner and knowing many other foreigners doing the same, I have to say this is right on the money.
As long as you take a mercenary attitude, do your job, and get paid, and have enough sense about the culture and social situation not to make anyone lose face, you will be fine. If you expect to be treated as part of the team or that your input will be valued, you won't make it. There's a job they want you to do. You come and do it and get paid. End of story.
Most Korean employers want to minimize their contact with foreigners (I don't blame them for this). They usually work through one foreigner they hire to do that job -- interacting with other foreigners. It works for me because I like to minimize my contact with bosses. If they pay well and leave you alone because they need your expertise, that's all the better.
To be fair, if you are a foreigner and take the effort to speak Korean fluently and respect Korean etiquette and protocol, I believe you will be accepted and treated with respect. In that case, you would also need to be willing to accept the burdens and responsibilities the Korean employees have, which I suspect most foreigners would not want to do. So you may miss out on certain things you see as perks, but there is a heavy price to pay for those, from what I've seen.
Definition of play to win is not the point. What they told the public beforehand is not the point.
The point is they pulled off the perfect plan to get peoples money
Yes they made BDO: a game that has one of the most immersive mmo worlds, with the best graphics of any mmo and fun/unique gameplay features. Definitely a good plan to get people's money. Certainly a lot more honest than many of the multitude of kickstarters/crowdfunding/early access shite that some people around here seem to love throwing their money on.
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Ask someone that has actually played a p2w game if BDO is p2w and they'll laugh in your face saying you have no idea what pay 2 win is. I get aggravated because folks like you try and change and broaden definitions to suite your own narrative with how things are. Five years ago nothing about BDO would of been considered P2W even with the pearl shop to marketplace conversions. In fact five years ago BDO would of likely been praised for presenting a rather fair and balanced cash shop and allowing people a means to get cash shop items through in game means.
Paying to get something to sell in the hopes you progress a little bit faster has never and will never be pay 2 win except in the heads of the people trying to make p2w mean whatever the flavor of the month to attack is and keep adding to its meaning. I'm just waiting for the day that you people start calling p2p ionly game p2w so we can all laugh histerically at the fact that you've gotten so broad with the term you've essentially targeted all mmorpgs in existence, because the ever growing list is literally pretty much meaning everything but a straight up buy box pay to play sub model game at this point (which even WoW falls into some people's definitions of p2w with their instant level boosts and being able to sell sub token things for in game money)
The fact of the matter is the definition that keeps ever changing at anyone's whim is not the actual definition, but your own view of what it is. There is and has been an established definition since the term was around that was based on a very strict definition which I have repeated several times. Adding your own beliefs to that definition on top of the strict one changes and warps it over time and people feel they can slap the label onto literally anything they don't feel like spending money on in a f2p title at this point and that is literally what is happening. They continue to want more and more shit handed to them for nothing without adding as to "why" that is p2w beyond the usual "i think it's p2w" tripe that spews out of their mouths.
My opinion of the definition is based around what the definition was and remained when it was coined and not the bastardized definition that keeps broadening. The original intent of the term was to refer to a strict sense where you could only gain the most power by opening your wallet thereby "winning" particularly grievous in more PVP heavy games. People have taken that to somehow mean any means of getting ahead a little bit faster and skewed the original intent / meaning of it. Until BDO starts selling it's highest level gear, stat altering potions, or other shit in the cash shop that can't be attained any other way and literally gives people a leg up that no one can compete with them without opening their wallet they haven't crossed into the p2w realm by any stretch when taken for what p2w actually is.
The fact is they did the cash shop > marketplace thing in a respectable manner so that it could not be abused, they thought things through, and they did not lie to anyone despite the crap people have made up in their heads, The russian and KR versions have P2W items and those were removed from the US version. Being able to get 1/3rd (it is really more like 1/3.5) of what someone grinding can get doesn't magically mean the game has become p2w particularly when someone actually playing is much more likely to have TONS of money compared to the person literally trying to play using their real life money. That person literally would never be able to get ahead of a grinder and being able to try enchanting maybe one more time on the high end (if that) isn't going to break shit either so i fail to see how people can go on about the title being p2w in the least.
To further wit people love COSMETIC items. You can make a game that has a purely cosmetic cash shop and people will spend TONS of money on it. People are being picky about what costumes they want, what horse costumes they want, what pet they want etc. They want to have this visual look and that's why many are spending in BDO. You further proved my point that it is literally becoming about people not wanting to pay for things in games they expect everything for free like they are somehow entitled to it.
The biggest thign many people didn't have ANY issue with the game at all til this which gave so little money to players that it's laughable. Also the vocal minority that are actually using game forums is a splash in the bucket for a game's population. You think they didn't weigh pros and cons? Only about 20% of those people prolly did shit too.
The loudest whiners were pvp'ers that always want to be ahead of everyone else and would likely have a heart attack if someone playing less than them ever got to be on equal footing.
Very powerful, better than I can say.
People are looking for fun, after all why not ?..........Yet marketing is about getting as much as they can from the people simply trying to have fun !
Again, the entire objective behind playing an MMORPG is the the development of your character via progression through journey by utilizing your own personal skills, qualities, abilities, determination and perseverance to overcome the challenges presented by the game through that journey. In an MMORPG, progress is power!
Progression is the "edge," and an equivalent form of "empowerment," not just in BDO but in every MMORPG!
Putting in the time developing your character, getting better, and successfully navigating through the challenges (Ie., journey) presented by the game is the entire point behind playing an MMORPG! A player is suppose to gain an edge by utilizing their own skills, qualities, abilities, by putting in time and effort and earning that advantage, not by buying an advantage with real life money that only serves to circumvent that journey or provide benefits that will add short cuts to that endeavor.
The only manner that a cash shop can ever be deemed not powerful or advantageous. Ie., P2W, is if the cash shop is comprised of nothing but cosmetic items. That's it! When items cross that border from customization to providing an advantage, or benefit, to a player through the use of real life money, that another player playing the game is not reaping an equal benefit from without the use of cash, that is an obvious definition of Pay to Win.
That's just common sense and anyone denying it, or defending the practice, is simply attempting to rationalize away the fact that they are being given a crutch in their effort to play the game on an equal playing field, by utilizing real life money to play on that equal playing field, over those who have earned it and did not utilizing real life money to get there.
The point can not be made any more clear.
BDO already had people's money. I knew many people who were breaking their frugal spending habits for that game, simply because they loved the game. Daum was already making bank off of BDO before they made changes to the cash shop. Hell, people were even willing to put up w/ the Camo suits even though that was fairly P2W in and of itself (arguably so, but still).
The tragedy of BDO is that it really didn't need to change that much to be successful in the West. Rather than catering to that idea, though, BDO did what a lot of asian companies do and pretended to accommodate the west while fully planning on doing business as usual. (and to be fair we tend to do the same to the East). And thus begin systematically ruining western appeal to their highly anticipated game.
If their goal was to sabotage their own game, then I would consider it a well executed plan. Anything else, not really.
BDO as business model is P2W
The game is basically built from the ground-up to extract money from you to gain advantage in the game.
Our version had key elements removed from that equation, but it was still far worse than a cosmetic only shop.
10% exp on $30 costume, not to mention the only way to look good initially
remove nameplate from guillie suit for psuedo stealth in pvp, $30
4 pets to autoloot = much more loot/hour- $40
Weight increases= I dunno, $10
Game has no content- only grind, which is intentional as it makes you want to avoid as much of it as possible.
These are only the "mandatory" items to be "competative". There are far more items you can buy to gain advantage, as well.
You can say and I have argued that all these things are OK, although they suck and definitely should not be part of the game, but only because the game is not p2w and once you spent that money you were good to go.
Now that it's p2w, those things are no longer OK (and really were not to begin with).
Also, @Doug-B, you keep saying this is good because it fights RMT- you clearly haven't played the game because otherwise you'd know there was no real RMT in the game because there is no player trade and the marketplace is restricted. There are a few "companies" that claim to sell you silver but really they are just stealing credit card info.
If I knew enough to stay clear of this game, no reason others couldn't figure it out.
edit :
As distance tests a horse’s strength, so does time reveal a person’s real character.
wonderful world
World of Warcraft is a little bit of trying to be like Guild Wars 2. Is it going to make people dislike the game itself? No, from my view I really dont like GW2. But I definetly will be enjoying Legion. It is pretty normal mate. The thing, you call Pay2Win is not more than a myth:
Think about this way, lets say they made a game and they called it XYZ; this game hasnt got any pay2win features in-game shop. But, there always will be power levelers, account boosters, gold sellers etc. So what happened? Producer made a flawless game but still it is pay2win because other options are always will be exist.
Other hand, it is a sign actually company is not making enough money, so they are desperate for it. Desperate people, does desperate things... We all know that tale.
I think you are one of these casual players who plays mmo`s a couple hours in a week and expect to be number 1. Who walks around the map and thinks beatifull, catch pictures in nice places. Never grind or involve to story... After months later rage quit because you read some ridicilous article about patch notes/suggestion topics. Dont take it personal but this is what I see from your post. Cheers...
Edit - Typo.
Real money buys pearl shop items which is then sold for silver which is used to upgrade/buy gear = pay to win.
for me now...if I like BDO then play , if don't just leave ...that it's...
wonderful world
Until it buys you something unobtainable by reasonable means in game it's not P2W.
Not even a debatable point so...
/ mic drop.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The pets are a little different. I can't say that it isn't super nice to have them auto looting, but that's simply just a convenience feature, which isn't necessary IMO. Those also rarely get sold on the AH, I've never seen one go up in chat ever. Since you can't trade gold or a majority of items with other players, nobody is buying them to sell for mass amounts.
The monthly fee is a bit obnoxious, the tax reduction alone is too nice not to have but it isn't entirely necessary. It's annoying as hell seeing something go up for like a million and only getting 600k or whatever from the sale.
You are right in stating that they know how to pull customers in, but I don't think it's for as many pay to win reasons as everyone seems to think (except maybe the value packs for the tax benefits alone).
As long as you take a mercenary attitude, do your job, and get paid, and have enough sense about the culture and social situation not to make anyone lose face, you will be fine. If you expect to be treated as part of the team or that your input will be valued, you won't make it. There's a job they want you to do. You come and do it and get paid. End of story.
Most Korean employers want to minimize their contact with foreigners (I don't blame them for this). They usually work through one foreigner they hire to do that job -- interacting with other foreigners. It works for me because I like to minimize my contact with bosses. If they pay well and leave you alone because they need your expertise, that's all the better.
To be fair, if you are a foreigner and take the effort to speak Korean fluently and respect Korean etiquette and protocol, I believe you will be accepted and treated with respect. In that case, you would also need to be willing to accept the burdens and responsibilities the Korean employees have, which I suspect most foreigners would not want to do. So you may miss out on certain things you see as perks, but there is a heavy price to pay for those, from what I've seen.
Yes they made BDO: a game that has one of the most immersive mmo worlds, with the best graphics of any mmo and fun/unique gameplay features. Definitely a good plan to get people's money. Certainly a lot more honest than many of the multitude of kickstarters/crowdfunding/early access shite that some people around here seem to love throwing their money on.