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Mythic,learn from DAOC and stop the insane crowdcontrol.
virtuella
Member UncommonPosts: 699
First,i know nothing about warhammer and what the background is but i'm assuming that we will get some kind of similar RvR in warhammer than we see in DAOC.
I played DAOC at release and came back recently.
It's still the best PvP game out there without any discussion,but there is 1 thing i dislike and that is the insane areacrowdcontrol.
Who hits the win button first?
Areamezz,paralyze,stun etc.
The RvR would be a lot more tactical if there was no areaspells at all.
Then those classes who could,root,slow,stun,mezz etc had to think about who they wanted to immobilize first.
Root the tanks so they can't get in infight? mezz the casters so they can't root? Maybe target the healers?
It would be a lot more fun than just hitting an Areamez like now.
If Mythic in DAOC would make a classic server with no areaspells at all i would never change game,but since it seems like they wont do that,i have to hang my hat on this one to be the one that will not have insane crowdcontrol.
For those who know more about Warhammer.
Does the Warhammer universe allow areaspells and areamez etc?
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Comments
Heya,
In Old World (the common name for the place where players having fun :> in warhammer world) there are few schools of magic and yes, they do allow area of effect crowd control spells (aoe cc). They are not instant though. but:
a) according to 2nd edition of WH they are hard to cast (winds of magic)
b) they are very high level spells almost impossible to cast at the beggining of game
c) they are extremely strong becouse of a) and b) :>
After a while of thinking i can agree that having single target cc can give more opportunities to plan fights in different way. So im with above poster.
krzyk
It's all about balance really, if you don't allow ae CC you will have to find other ways of dealing with no collision detection and give spellcasters the ability to cast while someone is beating them over the head with a hammer etc.
I definately don't like ae CC, part of the reason being that the only way to do it right is making sure all sides have exactly the same CC abilities, part of the reason is that any CC and just watching a fight as a spectator is a frustrating experience at best. I'm pretty sure that Mythic, just like other game makers doing PvP is trying various solutions early on and have been for some time, they know what people found frustrating/not fun in DAOC and I'm sure they would like for this game to be better in as many ways as possible.
there are enough counter measures against ae cc in DAoC - purge, SoS, determination, demezz, mezz-shield...you just have to know how to deal with it.
It introduces a lot of tactics and I have to disagree - "the first mezz = win issue" belongs to the past, due to SoS and other realm abilities.
I have to disagree with the OP as well, DAOC's CC problems are mostly a thing of the past. In their current form, they do indeed add a nice tactical element for your group's support people to deal with. Then again, if your group isn't full with the necessary classes/specs/RAs... CC can easily screw you, and screw you fast.
I also agree that CC problems are mostly a thing of the past. There are plenty of abilities to dodge this these days.
That said, though, AE CC can be a bit overpowered in some situations. AE spells as a whole definitely need to stay. Eliminating all AE spells just turns the game into who has the bigger zerg. No one wants that. If anything needs to be changed, toning down the duration on AE CC would probably be it.
Warhammer Online Information
Im playing also from the beginning DAoC, first on the US Servers and later on the german Servers.
I don't like this stun feature. You can do nothing. People can attack you and kill you in 10 sek.
Theres is purge I know but without these stunning you don't need purge
A quote from Mark Jacobs (president of Mythic and lead designer for WAR) over at warhammeralliance.net . Make of it what you wish.
I do have to agree with the fact that cc is quite the nuisance. Theres nothing more annoying than running into battle and seeing that little caster spamming the cc to ensure that he gets everyone. Usually at that point I get up and grab a soda, use the restroom, step out for a smoke, etc.
I'm not saying to get rid of it though, just work around it. One step would be to reduce the time on it. Even with my anti-magic, charge, and other cc reducing methods I have still been mezzed for a solid 2 minutes. This is simply insane when a fight can take 10 seconds.
And I've heard although have never been able to confirm myself (I beleive its the usual Mythic hates us mids talk) that when the mid healer aoe spams the areas it reduces the time limit each time he casts. I don't think that is true but I would like to see that in action so all these little casters don't destroy theyre mez/stun buttons on theyre keyboards.
Personally I've always noticed that Warhammer is more of a warrior based games, I mean even the empire still fears and hates casters in general but making it into a MMO you're garuanteed to have swarms of casters running around. I would like to see it be a fairer on the ones who love tanks and would actually like to use them occasionaly instead of just watching each battle
Agree to that... I absolutely hate seeing more wizards than warriors in games... Wizards should be like.. 10% if not even less of the "capables" in a fantasy setting... I hope Wizards are ridicilously gimped to discourage the use of them and put the focus on fighters. Especially in Warhammer.
Warhammer Fantasy Battle: Wizard = special character, all others are Melee or ranged combat more or less
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: Wizard = Constantly running the risk of being corrupted by the forces of chaos, and becoming a pawn of the chaos gods or simply insane.
And CC... hate that as well, (surprise? :P). I have not played Daoc though.. WoW is the only mmorpg with major CC I played and it's a pain in the ass.. CC-spells need a loooong cooldown for it to be enjoyable.. nothing more annoying than interrupting a mages sheep spell 5 times, and then get sheeped, since all your interrupt abilities are on cooldown.
Vrashk,
what's the point of having a gimped character being available?
Tons of ppl whining about imba melees/casters? Or just for the sake of having a casterclass in ur game? It's the subscriber's choice what class to play, if there'd be any sort of restriction to any class' availabilty, you'll see riots for sure 
Btw, i'm not a caster player ... at least one less already ;D
If you haven't played DAoC, WoW's CC abilities are a blessing vs. DAoC's. Anyway, i more or less like CC, it just depends on _how_ it is implemented. It's a fine tactical element i would really miss not having it in WAR in any kind, but just not like it is in DAoC. If the system CC is built up on is not made in the way that it decides the win or loss of a whole fight, i would have no problem with it.
WoW btw has not really any form of CC like DAoC has... A sheep, a root and a pet that sleeps go all on singletargets, the frostnova, well, has an area of effect, but works like a root. DAoC's CC spells, at leat how they are used in most situations, are area of effect roots, stuns, mesmerizes where u, being in any of these states, can watch ur teammates being whacked. But there are counterspells for that also, it just depends on the people u are playing with. If the whole CC-thing of DAoC would have been really _that_ bad, i wonder, why ppl that actually played it longer than a trial time period still claim it to be the best pvp game made till today in the mmorpg sector.
Okay conclusion, i'd like to see a well made CC system that doesn't make or break a fight/battle and adds in as a tactical element, not as an "i-win" button.
AOE CC is good in the way it will give smaller groups better chances of beating the larger grps.
like in daoc a good 8 man grp could easily beat 2grps sometimes more it added a form of strategy into the game, i think they need to greatly reduce the duration though like max aoe mes should be 25-30 seconds
( but knowing mythic they will make it 1:30-2 min again but then give u ways to lower it)
[edit] good example would be WoW they removed CC but then everyclass and thier father had a decent stun and snare.... became a stun/snare fest heh id rather have slight CC then that bullshit
There isn't one. I just hate casters, but most fantasy mmorpgs have this obscure compulsion to include them in their game... So since they will be there, I want them to suck so much so no one except a roleplayer perhaps would want to play one!
^^
Ahh.. my dream mmorpg is a historically based mmorpg... pulled off well, not the crap Roma Victor is (so far at least).
And judging from that post about DaoC CCs.. it doesn't sound at all like the PvP-heaven people make it out to be.. It sounds like an extremely frustrating and annoying system.
Sorry to say it, but a group of people should not be able to beat twice their number really, by tactics perhaps, but not who can get the biggest AoE-stun off first.
heya caster-hater
had a good laugh reading ur first three sentences 
Just too bad u didn't play DAoC. CC wasn't/isn't really that bad, and if u take it from this point, that u have three realms (albion, midgard and hibernia) struggling there, which are really everything but balanced when it comes to the realm-balance of players (like 20%hibs vs 30%mids vs 50%albs just for example). CC was more or a less a neccessity to even be able to fight ur foes being a player of one of the underdog realms. And y should a good group of players not be able to beat a group of twice their number? Even without CC (in WAR) this will happen, i bet. Like u said by tactics and i add in teamplay. Well, some other ingredients are needed as well, but okay, let's stay a bit on topic.
Like we know this from Mark Jacobs now, that there is obviously no CC in WAR, like Nalaeph quoted, we can rest assured... Can we?
I would, like i said before, just miss it as a tactical element. What we all just don't know at the moment is, how in anyway will the pvp/rvr system feel like. They just gave out the first infos on that, but that's just a kind of frame of how it will work in generell...
If there's an open area where u can roam but this area is somewhat restricted to a player limit plus one side is missing players, getting their ranks filled up with NPCs ... uhh .. i want to have CC with me, playing on the NPC filled up side pls
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nyquil,
i totally agree with u.
and
CaedesAstrum,
i just can say, i totally agree with u, too. DAoC's best time with most fun was pre ToA. Maybe i should mention that, when saying DAoC (for me) is the best pvp/rvr environment till today.
If u know any better one, just take a look to the left hand side of ur screen, check the list with Released Games and name one. I'm curious
Did Daoc have collision-detection?
I can't help but think that to get the most realistic and fun pvp enviroment, you need to look at "arcade"-style games, like FPS and Hack n' slash games and take some stuff from there. Like.. collision detection for both ranged and melee abilities as an example..
The problem is how to incorporate "RPG"-elements, such as skill advances etc into a game of that style. I only know single player games that managed to pull it off fairly well (Deus Ex, Elder scrolls..)
No, DAOC does not have collision detection. I wouldn't mind seeing collision detection in WAR, but CD has a tendency to bog down servers. For an FPS where you've 10 to 20 people playing, its nothing. For an MMORPG with 3000+ people playing, its another story.
I think 20 seconds is a reasonable duration for most types of CC as long as there are counters available in game to cure crowd control spells. Losing the initial CC in DAOC, these days at least, is not a back breaker and is pretty easy to recover from.
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