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What do you think about Indie MMO ?
Grouroux
Member UncommonPosts: 16
As an indie creator of a MMO, I am very interested to know what the term "Indie MMO" means to you.
For example what size team do you think that there is such a project ? Is this make you curious or it scare you? What kind of game do you expect to have? Do you consider projects like Albion Online or SoTA as indie games?
Thank you
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Grouroux, Game Designer
Gangs of Space > Indie MMO Shmup Roguelike > Join Alpha : BEE7E-3B768-7626A-2A740
Best Answers
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flizzer
RarePosts: 2,455
For me Indie has come to mean a Grade B MMO type experience. Ive learned to stay away from Indie " For me only the big companies are able to do justice to an MMO. Inevitably the movement and combat in these indie type MMOs falls flat for me. I know nothing about programming so maybe there is a simple reason for this, but as someone who just loves to play MMOs I find this true. I have yet to find one of these indie games with combat as smooth as WoW or GW2.
Size? When I hear indie it is often one guy with some friends, or maybe half a dozen guys. Inevitably you hear about his game and he is really excited . The first few months there are lots of updates. I promise monthly updates. Gradually this slows down as real life interferes and the person realizes they can't live up to all the promises they made. I saw this with Memory of Eldurm on Steam as well as Frontiers, both games that I found interesting but soon realized direction they would take. The one guy even made a video of how overwhelmed he felt and depressed and how he was struggling to get updates out. Apparently work limps on but Ive started losing hope. Project Gorgon was an indie type game I played for awhile and even chatted with the developer. Great guy but the game is moving at a snail's pace. I love all these different in game skills such as psychology and mycology, but, again, the combat feels horrible and the game looks bad.
SoTA is being made by Richard Garriot, of course, and he has a long pedigree. Not sure if someone with his experience is exactly Indie, but he was trying to fund the entire project or a good portion of the game himself so perhaps. I don't know much about Albion Online. Maybe one of those games will change my opinion about such games.
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cameltosis LegendaryPosts: 3,847
Indie just means independent, i.e. they are self funded. This has a few implications
1) Being self-funded, chances are the funding is much lower than other companies, thus the finished project will have a much smaller scope and / or lower quality.
2) If you are indie, it means that the developers were unable to convince any publishers that their game was worth making. That means the idea is either bad or outside the box. 99% of the time, the ideas are just bad, but that 1% of ideas can produce some interesting games.
3) Being independent means you retain complete control over your product. This can be a good thing (in comparison to having someone like EA screwing you over) but only if you have a strong vision.
So, whenever I see an indie game, regardless of genre, my initial thought it to simply dismiss it. Every single indie game is either limited in scope or limited in quality so I'd rather seek out a "proper" game that isn't so limited. The only time this isn't true is when a company has been successful for long enough to be able to self-fund new games (but, most of these tend to be dual dev/publishers).
The only time I'll take note of an indie game is when the idea is out-of-the-box, i.e. doesn't have a mainstream equivalent.
Looking at indie MMOs in particular, again, my initial thought is to dismiss out of hand. Given that most developers with many millions available still fail hard, I hold out little hope. Having said that, a lot of these indie MMOs fulfil the "out-of-the-box" criteria. They all seem to be sandboxes - some pvp, some pve, mixture of hardcore and casual, group and solo play. Being a sandbox, they are placing the emphasis on systems, rather than content, so essentially have smaller scope (have to build less stuff) which makes them more possible.
My expectation is that most of the PvE indie sandboxes will fail. I think they're aiming for too much stuff which will either break or result in a boring gameloop. This will be combined with a lack of marketing and thus not enough players to sustain the games.
I do think one or two might survive for a while. Chronicles of Elyria has a team behind it that has already made one MMO so even though the project is ambitious they do at least have a lot of experience. The same goes with Crowfall and Camelot Unchained and a few others - they either have leaders with a lot of experience or have hired developers with a lot of experience. This counts for a lot as regardless of how good or not the plans are for an MMO, experience counts for a lot when it comes to actually delivering.
TL;DR: I expect most indie mmos to fail, but hold some cautious optimism for a few based on the teams previous experience and limited scope compared to mainstream MMOs.Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Answers
Star Sonata.
Dofus (they really start as indie)
But these games are not presented as "Indie" MMO.
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Grouroux, Game Designer
Gangs of Space > Indie MMO Shmup Roguelike > Join Alpha : BEE7E-3B768-7626A-2A740
I am not interested in Indie MMORPGs or even AA ones for that matter.
I just cannot go back to non-AAA graphics, content quality, animations, sound, overall polish, support quality, etc in MMORPG if I ever decide to play one again that is.
Interesingly enough I am okay with single player and non-MMO multiplayer Indie games - I do play them, but I just cannot stand indie MMORPG.
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Yes SotA and Albion obviously are Indie.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
What I hope for from an indie dev team is new ideas and good gameplay. If they can do that, they could have a successful MMORPG (although honestly MMORPGs seem like such monumental undertakings, I'd probably try to make a different type of game if I was an indie dev team).
I personally can't think of any indie project I would call a success, and probably at least 90% of them never even see launch day
However, due to how reality works in terms of time and resources, the chance for a game of the kind of ambition I, personally, prefer is all but non-existent.
So, I will almost certainly not care about an indie MMO much at all.
Purchasers are usually are interested in price and reviews about e.g. the quality of the product.
Brand name awareness i.e. not indie but "tried and tested" can be a positive. It can convey an expectation of "quality", "customer service", "support" and so on. The converse is also true hence "I'll never buy from ..... "
"Indie" in that sense simply means unknown.
Even though it may simply be a "unknown company name" owned by a big brand that - maybe - wants to dissociate itself from negative feedback or give out an edgy vibe or whatever i.e. marketing strategy. Or it could be an overseas company unknown in the overseas market.
At the end of the day though its the product that has to do the talking.
When you take the methods that have been used, I think they are a recipe for failure. Combining Crowd Funding with Early Access with extended development timelines, and you pretty much have a dead game that no one cares about after before it actually releases. I think The Repop is a good example of what not to do. The game started off with great ideas and caught everyone's attention. Over time, everything just kind of worked against them. Players just lost interest. It's still in development, but not it appears it will be a shadow of it's former self which wasn't going gangbusters to begin with.
I get it. What are you supposed to do then? I don't know, but I do believe opening the doors too soon isn't the right way to do it......Especially if the game is going to take a long time to release.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
I have been following this game and its amazing how much one person has been able to do
http://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/345010/
Wurm which is likely my favorite 'MMO' of all time has been mostly created by one person.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Indie doesn't have to mean much lower quality, it can also mean smaller scope and more focus, which in my opinion is a good thing. Several upcoming mid budget MMOs look interesting.
On the other hand, if I see a small unexperienced team claiming to make the next "big thing" that will do everything better than anyone ever did, then yes, that's a huge red flag.
Being reasonable and setting the scope correctly is part of being a professional dev. If someone fails at these basics I don't see much chance of them actually ever finishing a decent MMORPG. But hey, I wish everyone luck, I just won't give such projects my money.
I also agree to the last point GeezerGamer said, long dev cycles plus very early access can have a negative effect.
A big chunk of the crucial (because they would be the ones helping with the launch hype and providing a healthy launch population) core audience will join very early and probably burn out and move on before the game ever gets finished or even starts reaching a bigger audience. They will likely burn out quite a bit faster than they would if they'd actually played the game in it's finished state with more depth, less bugs, more content, healthier population, higher polish and better balance.
The very early access kinda spreads out and separates the available audience, making it harder for the game to reach critical mass and become a real success.
Envision new, innovative ideas: Great
Passion for building a great game: Great
Ability to execute: Fair
Ability to successfully market: Poor to fair
Ability to run the ongoing business side of the game: Abysmal to poor
~~ postlarval ~~
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Grouroux, Game Designer
Gangs of Space > Indie MMO Shmup Roguelike > Join Alpha : BEE7E-3B768-7626A-2A740
• Because big gaming companies imo seem to be generally unable to grasp the finer aspects of game design, I HIGHLY doubt that some go-getting indy dev that want to simply create some stuff have his/her shit together.
If I was an independent MMO dev, I would make sure to try focus on the positive sides of game design:
• substance (mood, charm, theme, genre, originality, richness, environment)
&
• player options (multiple variables for the player to work with)
Bad things, would be focusing on: gimmicks, simplicity & lack of artistic merit
I strongly suspect that a big issue with game developers in general, is a lack of communication skills, as well as not quite understanding their own ideas as well as they should. The problem of communication would be come a serious issue I can imagine, when ideas are to be expanded upon, or, defended against ill willed critics and nay sayers.
I don't like to generalize and it makes me cringe when others do with limited knowledge. Developers are people with a wide range of talent and skills. When independent rather than being lorded over by a producer, they primarily have more options and freedom to do the game they want. There are also AAA talent indy studios and the other. Independent doesn't mean lack of quality but it can mean not forced to make a high quality and profitable game by a producer.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The reality is less ressources you have and more creative you need to be.
(It doesn't mean the result will be better than a AAA production, but just very different)
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Grouroux, Game Designer
Gangs of Space > Indie MMO Shmup Roguelike > Join Alpha : BEE7E-3B768-7626A-2A740
And you don't complete the game, your a failure. See, resources didn't matter! hahahaha
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"