Well tell me what's most hated about the genre. I can almost assure you everything single thing revolves around vast vertical progression.
Who cares what people hate most? The RPG genre's core pillars are progression, story, and stats-driven combat.
If people hated that, they wouldn't be playing RPGs.
Playing an RPG is very different than playing a MMORPG. MMORPG can easily be about playing the role of your character in a virtual world.
And I didn't say progression is most hated though people pay to bypass it. I said what people hate most about the genre happens because of vast vertical progression. Why not every single thing a majority do.
Well tell me what's most hated about the genre. I can almost assure you everything single thing revolves around vast vertical progression.
Who cares what people hate most? The RPG genre's core pillars are progression, story, and stats-driven combat.
If people hated that, they wouldn't be playing RPGs.
Oh, so it's no longer "vertical progression, story, and stats-based combat" like the last post you made claiming what RPGs were?
Seriously, try and be consistent post to post, especially when you wish to make that whole "blue is blue" analogy. When you have no consistency yourself to what you claim an RPG is, then you have no grounding for making any claim about anyone else's stance on the matter.
Not to mention if we look up anywhere what a video game RPG is defined as, we see your interpretation nowhere in sight, and rather a very different description of the genre's integral features. There is no rational grounding to your present argument, only your belief that your opinions are gospel. That does not make for reasonable discussion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Zone scaling solely exists because people do like progression, however it does not mean it isn't without issues.
Zone scaling is an attempt for a solution but like GW2 proved, it does not work well if you want to base your entire game design on it - people still want their progression.
Zone scaling is a means for old content to retain some degree of relevancy, which is only a concern as consequence of heavy vertical progression. It's a solution to a problem that only exists because of heavy-handed game design.
I will say that people definitely do like perceived progression, but that can come in many forms well beyond watching numbers increment ever upwards.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Unfortunately, gw2 is a bad example of horizontal vs VP.
Still, a lot of people didn't like the shift (including me and all my guild and friends) and ragequitted. They acquired new players because of expansion, raids and new legendaries...but lost lots of gw veterans. Now, it's another game among many clones...with no much personality, except living story. No great reasons to recommend to play it over other titles, except for the fact it's buy-once/no montly sub.
PS: You can provide all the examples you want, about what people do like or not, what sells and what doesn't , or what do you think would do it or not - it won't stop some people that desire something different, whether you consider it a rpg or not. If someone asks for something different, number doesn't legitimate or delegitimate it...would it be niche or a triple a best hit? Don't care, as long as it's a good game to play with what you consider a sufficient number of friends (or strangers)
Zone scaling is a means for old content to retain some degree of relevancy, which is only a concern as consequence of heavy vertical progression. It's a solution to a problem that only exists because of heavy-handed game design.
I will say that people definitely do like perceived progression, but that can come in many forms well beyond watching numbers increment ever upwards.
It's too engrained in this genre's players that you have to have constant number gains. Even if those gains are meaningless because content is scaled to you or doesn't make sense.
You can solo a world destroyer from 4 expansions ago but this wolf can beat you because its 6 levels higher than you in the latest expansion. Like nobody watched anything but Dragon Ball Z growing up.
I would prefer modest role defining progression and give me areas that challenge my ability to play and sense of adventure. Give me cool items and powers beyond 50 shades of damage.
No, it's the same thing. RPG in videogames refers to a specific thing, in precisely the way that "blue" refers to a specific thing. That's how words work.
If you call non-RPGs "RPG" just because they involve the dictionary definition of playing a role, you'll simply be using the genre wrong.
And I'll remain convinced that defining an RPG by number values, rather than the literal meaning of the words it's comprised of, doesn't make any sense.
I have purposely stayed clear of this thread because by reading the OP I concluded the poster to be more "confused" than "informed." Reading through the thread only served to strengthen that conclusion.
Having said the above, it would be unfair for me to move on without offering an explanation as to why arrived to that conclusion. And that is because no matter how much one tries, one can not separate leveling from an MMORPG. Period. Leveling is an integral, and perhaps the single most important feature, behind MMORPG game play. The reason for that goes far beyond, and is much simpler than, just character customization and character development. Yes, those are indeed core concepts of MMORPG game play but the most important aspect of an MMORPG lies in the last three letters of that acronym, the much overlooked and underestimated "RPG."
MMORPGs, at their very core, are about story telling. That is why we have quests in MMORPGs. They are a means by which the story in the "RPG" is told and played out. A core foundation of story telling is the laying out of a story in a sequential and chronological order. And the means by which an MMORPG lays out the story for the "RP" in its "G" is by chronologically guiding a players through a series of quests that are facilitated by sequential level gating. Without this game play feature, an MMO simply ceases being and "MMORPG."
In regard to the below listed paragraph in the OP of which the OP is fond of continual refrencing ...
So What? If You Want Fairness Why Not Play an FPS/MOBA/Whatever...
MMOs are more than stat progression. MMOs are massive worlds that offer chances to explore the world, randomly encounter other players but peacefully, and in random encounter Open World PvP. MMOs can feature meaningful crafting, and a greater variety of content. MMOs give you a chance to make a mark on a world inhabited by real players. Some MMOs even have deep politics with player created factions. Some people love and desire to take part in many or all of these things without being subjected to massive power disparities based on level and gear.
It's effectiveness is rendered moot in his very first sentence which implies that he is unable to make the distinct differentiation between an MMO and an MMORPG. As explained above, while MMO's may indeed involve all of the above, there is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG. If what he is looking for is an "MMO" without story and level gating, then he would be well advised to take his concerns to any of the dozens of FPS/MOBA/Whatever game forums and express his concerns regarding making those games include all of the above features minus the story telling and level gating play that are core to MMO"RPG" game play. I think it is safe to say that MMORPG gamers are fed up with the bastardization of the MMORPG genre by "FPS/MOBA/Whatever" players complaining about this core feature and trying to change it into something unrecognizable from the origin of its concepts.
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. That is the very definition of an FPS/MOBA or Whatever. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not just "MMO." An MMO without the RPG is an FPS/MOBA/Whatever, not an "MMORPG."
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
So you are saying I would be better off convincing creators of MOBAs/FPSs which contain one feature that I want to expand that one feature into a full fledged MMO and in doing so completely change the way their game plays to accommodate it now being an MMO... Than to convince someone to create an MMO lacking a single element I don't like.
Furthermore you list games being "story driven" as a core element of MMORPGs when there are existing sandbox MMORPGs that are not?
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
All RPG do not have levels. Not sure what you're talking about.
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
All RPG do not have levels. Not sure what you're talking about.
We are not simply talking about "RPGs" we are talking about "MMORPGs." There is a difference. Simply put, name those MMORPGs of which story telling is not an integral design, and as such, not bound by a level gating design of some sort.
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
All RPG do not have levels. Not sure what you're talking about.
We are not simply talking about "RPGs" we are talking about "MMORPGs." There is a difference.
Once upon a time there were 3 popular MMORPG, UO, EQ and somewhat AC. EQ had traditional leveling that grandfathered most of the genre. AC had levels that gave exp to skill gain but levels weren't power platforms. UO had usage based skills progression with no levels.
Not all MMOs are gated at all. The current MMO I've been playing is Wurm Online. In Wurm when a new server starts the world is empty other than terrain, resources, and NPCs which are not segregated into different areas by level.
You go out and gather resources and build a village. Generally picking up other players to join your village or joining theirs. Forming alliances with other villages etc. On the PvE servers trade and survival are the main content. In PvP server combat and player driven politics are the driving content.
There is no gates. No scripted content, and yet they are an MMORPG:
"Wurm Online is the MMORPG where the players are in charge! Developed around the idea of player influence, it remains one of the only Sandbox MMOs worthy of the term.
Whether you enjoy conquering kingdoms, building your home or hunting dragons, Wurm will let you.
That's a very flawed concept of what the RPG part in MMORPG constitutes. First off, RPGs are not intrinsically tied to levels to define progression. Neither are they defined by a rigid narrative path, as open world RPG titles with free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plot already exist.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
Again, we aren't just talking about progress as it pertains to character customization and power development. Its very easy to spout out baseless and unsubstantiated opinions about what constitutes RPGs and how they are not intrisically tied to levels to define progression, its a whole different story actually describing how an RPG is to tell their story in a sequential and chronological order without a level gating game play design.
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not "MMO."
Only open ended RPG are gated by levels. The rest are gated by story.
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
All RPG do not have levels. Not sure what you're talking about.
We are not simply talking about "RPGs" we are talking about "MMORPGs." There is a difference.
Once upon a time there were 3 popular MMORPG, UO, EQ and somewhat AC. EQ had traditional leveling that grandfathered most of the genre. AC had levels that gave exp to skill gain but levels weren't power platforms. UO had usage based skills progression with no levels.
Not sure why you mentioned EQ and AC as they are obviously level based games and add nothing to support your argument. UO may not have had levels but it was indeed a level gated designed game. "Leveling" comes in many forms and does not always need to be reflected in numbers. Wanting to be deceived into believing that a game does not have "leveling" simply because the advancement and progression in the game is not reflected in numbers may work in giving some a measure of relief in thinking that they are not playing a "level" based game, but nothing could be further from the truth. Its a pretty naive perspective. All MMORPGs have level based gating in some form of another.
Below is a copy pasted description of UO by this very website ...
UO allows you to choose a class, train skills, and upgrade player stats to advance. many gameplay mechanics and features that we now consider traditional in MMOs, such as living in a virtual world, building player cities, leveling, crafting, exploring, and more were either forged by or made classic by Ultima Online. There is an extensive crafting system and resources to gather for use in both skill training and crafting.
No one is disagreeing that not all MMOs require gating. FPS/MOBA and Whatevers are all MMOs. Any game that offers online game play to a massive amount of players falls under the umbrella of an "MMO."
If your gripe is against MMOs in general, why are you complaining about levels?
To add to my previous comment Wurm Online is not good evidence of an MMO without leveling (It actually has the longest progression of any MMO I've ever seen.) It actually does provide evidence that removing progression can make a game more successful.
One of the original developers of Wurm Online left and created his own game that was practically Wurm without leveling and missing some of the cooler Wurm features, was not an MMO, and had worse graphics. We call that game Minecraft.
While most of you haven't heard of Wurm, I assume you have heard of Minecraft. Another example of how MMOs lost relevancy by making leveling the central content.
Playing an RPG is very different than playing a MMORPG. MMORPG can easily be about playing the role of your character in a virtual world.
And I didn't say progression is most hated though people pay to bypass it. I said what people hate most about the genre happens because of vast vertical progression. Why not every single thing a majority do.
Notice the RPG in MMORPG? Yeah that stands for Role-Playing Game.
If you want a virtual world or a game without vertical progression, that's a different genre. It's not an RPG. It's not an MMORPG.
Here is why your comments regarding players "hating" progression are nonsense:
People love cars.
A significant portion of how they experience cars is driving.
As a result, most complaints about cars are driving-related.
In your nonsensical world view, you'd claim that the solution to the problem is to remove driving from cars. That's exactly what you've done with RPGs: because progression is a major aspect of RPGs, naturally it attracts a significant portion of the complaints. Your suggestion (and the OP's) is to remove it, regardless of the fact that progression is in fact the biggest driving force (pun intended) causing people to play RPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
If people hated that, they wouldn't be playing RPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And I didn't say progression is most hated though people pay to bypass it. I said what people hate most about the genre happens because of vast vertical progression. Why not every single thing a majority do.
Seriously, try and be consistent post to post, especially when you wish to make that whole "blue is blue" analogy. When you have no consistency yourself to what you claim an RPG is, then you have no grounding for making any claim about anyone else's stance on the matter.
Not to mention if we look up anywhere what a video game RPG is defined as, we see your interpretation nowhere in sight, and rather a very different description of the genre's integral features. There is no rational grounding to your present argument, only your belief that your opinions are gospel. That does not make for reasonable discussion.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Seriously...
Zone scaling solely exists because people do like progression, however it does not mean it isn't without issues.
Zone scaling is an attempt for a solution but like GW2 proved, it does not work well if you want to base your entire game design on it - people still want their progression.
I will say that people definitely do like perceived progression, but that can come in many forms well beyond watching numbers increment ever upwards.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Still, a lot of people didn't like the shift (including me and all my guild and friends) and ragequitted.
They acquired new players because of expansion, raids and new legendaries...but lost lots of gw veterans.
Now, it's another game among many clones...with no much personality, except living story.
No great reasons to recommend to play it over other titles, except for the fact it's buy-once/no montly sub.
PS: You can provide all the examples you want, about what people do like or not, what sells and what doesn't , or what do you think would do it or not - it won't stop some people that desire something different, whether you consider it a rpg or not.
If someone asks for something different, number doesn't legitimate or delegitimate it...would it be niche or a triple a best hit?
Don't care, as long as it's a good game to play with what you consider a sufficient number of friends (or strangers)
You can solo a world destroyer from 4 expansions ago but this wolf can beat you because its 6 levels higher than you in the latest expansion. Like nobody watched anything but Dragon Ball Z growing up.
I would prefer modest role defining progression and give me areas that challenge my ability to play and sense of adventure. Give me cool items and powers beyond 50 shades of damage.
And I'll remain convinced that defining an RPG by number values, rather than the literal meaning of the words it's comprised of, doesn't make any sense.
Having said the above, it would be unfair for me to move on without offering an explanation as to why arrived to that conclusion. And that is because no matter how much one tries, one can not separate leveling from an MMORPG. Period. Leveling is an integral, and perhaps the single most important feature, behind MMORPG game play. The reason for that goes far beyond, and is much simpler than, just character customization and character development. Yes, those are indeed core concepts of MMORPG game play but the most important aspect of an MMORPG lies in the last three letters of that acronym, the much overlooked and underestimated "RPG."
MMORPGs, at their very core, are about story telling. That is why we have quests in MMORPGs. They are a means by which the story in the "RPG" is told and played out. A core foundation of story telling is the laying out of a story in a sequential and chronological order. And the means by which an MMORPG lays out the story for the "RP" in its "G" is by chronologically guiding a players through a series of quests that are facilitated by sequential level gating. Without this game play feature, an MMO simply ceases being and "MMORPG."
In regard to the below listed paragraph in the OP of which the OP is fond of continual refrencing ...
So What? If You Want Fairness Why Not Play an FPS/MOBA/Whatever...
MMOs are more than stat progression. MMOs are massive worlds that offer chances to explore the world, randomly encounter other players but peacefully, and in random encounter Open World PvP. MMOs can feature meaningful crafting, and a greater variety of content. MMOs give you a chance to make a mark on a world inhabited by real players. Some MMOs even have deep politics with player created factions. Some people love and desire to take part in many or all of these things without being subjected to massive power disparities based on level and gear.
It's effectiveness is rendered moot in his very first sentence which implies that he is unable to make the distinct differentiation between an MMO and an MMORPG. As explained above, while MMO's may indeed involve all of the above, there is a distinct difference between an MMO and an MMORPG. If what he is looking for is an "MMO" without story and level gating, then he would be well advised to take his concerns to any of the dozens of FPS/MOBA/Whatever game forums and express his concerns regarding making those games include all of the above features minus the story telling and level gating play that are core to MMO"RPG" game play. I think it is safe to say that MMORPG gamers are fed up with the bastardization of the MMORPG genre by "FPS/MOBA/Whatever" players complaining about this core feature and trying to change it into something unrecognizable from the origin of its concepts.
As we covered previously actually, the notion of progress in an RPG takes many forms. Vertical progression and heavy power scaling is not inherently necessary for that, and can actually act in opposition to the narrative focus that is integral to RPGs.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'd be interested in hearing some of these other existing open world "MMORPG" titles with a free-form approach or prioritization of goals and plots that do not involve level gating in some form or another.
Again, the key acronym as it pertains to the context in question of this thread is "RPG" not just "MMO." An MMO without the RPG is an FPS/MOBA/Whatever, not an "MMORPG."
Most RPG wouldn't change much without levels. You just give abilities points where you would level and scale the numbers. Nothing changes. The few that would are mostly old games where you could get stomped going into high level areas early. Not a common design anymore. Most are gated by story or scale.
Your post makes no sense. It only serves to muddy the topic not clarify it. We do not get to individually define the definition of an MMORPG. It is what it is. There is no gray area in that regard.
We are not simply talking about "RPGs" we are talking about "MMORPGs." There is a difference. Simply put, name those MMORPGs of which story telling is not an integral design, and as such, not bound by a level gating design of some sort.
Not sure why you mentioned EQ and AC as they are obviously level based games and add nothing to support your argument. UO may not have had levels but it was indeed a level gated designed game. "Leveling" comes in many forms and does not always need to be reflected in numbers. Wanting to be deceived into believing that a game does not have "leveling" simply because the advancement and progression in the game is not reflected in numbers may work in giving some a measure of relief in thinking that they are not playing a "level" based game, but nothing could be further from the truth. Its a pretty naive perspective. All MMORPGs have level based gating in some form of another.
Below is a copy pasted description of UO by this very website ...
UO allows you to choose a class, train skills, and upgrade player stats to advance. many gameplay mechanics and features that we now consider traditional in MMOs, such as living in a virtual world, building player cities, leveling, crafting, exploring, and more were either forged by or made classic by Ultima Online. There is an extensive crafting system and resources to gather for use in both skill training and crafting.
No one is disagreeing that not all MMOs require gating. FPS/MOBA and Whatevers are all MMOs. Any game that offers online game play to a massive amount of players falls under the umbrella of an "MMO."
If your gripe is against MMOs in general, why are you complaining about levels?
One of the original developers of Wurm Online left and created his own game that was practically Wurm without leveling and missing some of the cooler Wurm features, was not an MMO, and had worse graphics. We call that game Minecraft.
While most of you haven't heard of Wurm, I assume you have heard of Minecraft. Another example of how MMOs lost relevancy by making leveling the central content.
If you want a virtual world or a game without vertical progression, that's a different genre. It's not an RPG. It's not an MMORPG.
Here is why your comments regarding players "hating" progression are nonsense:
- People love cars.
- A significant portion of how they experience cars is driving.
- As a result, most complaints about cars are driving-related.
In your nonsensical world view, you'd claim that the solution to the problem is to remove driving from cars. That's exactly what you've done with RPGs: because progression is a major aspect of RPGs, naturally it attracts a significant portion of the complaints. Your suggestion (and the OP's) is to remove it, regardless of the fact that progression is in fact the biggest driving force (pun intended) causing people to play RPGs."What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver