Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
MMORPG.COM News: GDC Panel: Player-to-Player Sales
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
Garrett Fuller sat in on and now reports on a panel that discussed player-to-player sales in an MMORPG setting. This is a thorny issue between developers, investors and the community. Here is what he learned:
| Sam Lewis ran a seminar at GDC for MMO Player to Player sales. Sam is currently working on a game for Cartoon Network although he could not give us any details. His history stems from Sony Online Entertainment and working on Star Wars Galaxies. Discussing player to player sales in MMOs can get pretty dicey especially when a large room of developers starts pitching out ideas. Everything from gold farming to buying characters or accounts bounced across the room with very strong opinions. |
You can read the full article here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
As long as I can make fun and HOPE to reach the top, I don't mind if other players pay RL $ to compete with me, I can deal with that I respect this.
If anyone make money from this, I hope it is the folks who make the MMORPG and if they have morality issues, they could give that to a charity cause...or to the NASA!
(or they can help those frenchies in Lousianna that got hit prior Katrina but that are mostly ignored, tons of stuff to do with extra money really, no shortage of good thing to do)
I can respect a clueless noob who just waste RL money to be uber, he actually pay to have less content and just shortcut, his lost and when I equal or beat him, I will just be happier. I can't respect a clown who don't know how to play but because he belong to a guild has better gear. Heck, I am even unsure if I would pick a server that allow this or another which prevent it completely, I mean, there are many opportunities to have around folks with ressources but lacking skill, yet wanting to be uber and good, not that I am that skilled, nope, but well, I can walk and chew a gum at once, which is good I guess! I am kinda a mercennary I guess!
Not that I care that much about been a mercennary, but would I turn the option? I don't think so, unless the person is unbearable... I always like grouping strangers, so clueless strangers who are rich and would possibly give in game benefit for helping them should they have a bad reputation of abysmall catastrophic bringers? Yeah, in game benefit + challenge = great fun and great opportunity. I guess this must be in the genetic code of the canadians used to see clueless french nobles! And then Brits, not any better! 
Richs folks, well, sure, can deal with them they don't affect my gaming experience that badly, I am not even sure if I can consider that negative, as they will most likely feel desesperate in those ubers zones and eh, I can guide them!
Raiders ruins my gaming experience, thereby raiders deserve a slow and painfull death, especially the DKP-oriented leeches!
Me, I will never buy nor sell anything vs RL stuff, those are pixels!
But I make about 3 millions PP in game by early PoP in old EQ...so yeah, I would achieve lot of stuff in game...but that all sit on my character and the day I quit, it is efficiently removed from the in game economy. Hehe. Oh well, good fun and good memories. My twink was wearing better gear than my main! 
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
trust me, if MMOs go in the direction of the "Korean Model," game designers will make it impossible to get the good gear/abilities without paying for it. That process of billing is just a sneaky way to raise fees over time. The way it's set up now, with monthly payment, we know exactly how much its gonna be every month, and if they raise it, we know exactly when they do. The "Korean Model" gives game companies the means to slowly raise the average fee as often as they want. All they need to do is increase the amount of items that players need to compete.
Imagine what it'll do to people who have compulsive spending problems. Imagine what it'll do to the parents of the children who play this game when they get a $200 credit card bill for one month. Imagine what it'll do for the game content. Will devs be interested in content that drives the story forward or will they be more interested in content that brings in more cash?
The only way to deal with player to player sales, is to put a stop to it completely IF we want the genre to move forward with creativity and entertainment as its driving force.
Which FF Character Are You?
Maybe if we only buy inventive titles, the moneymen will invest in crazy ideas?
Hello there, adventurer!
There is a European game (PE) that's been around a few years which takes the 'Korean model' to the extreme. The base game is free, but you can't do anything but wander around without buying stuff and everything in the game wears out rather quicky with use, so you need to keep buying.
The game is advertised as one where you can make money playing, but in practice, its sort of like a cassino; only a few people make money and the house gets its percentage on everything. In fact, you can make a direct comparison to an online cassino. You start by converting real money into in-game money (PED). Then you buy armor and weapons and go hunting. If you are lucky, the value of the loot you get from kills will be more than the ammo and equipment repair costs.
Crafting works the same way. You buy the equipment needed for crafting and you collect raw materials (wearing out your equipment in the process). Then you buy the patterns for making stuff and pay a rental fee for using the machines that do the crafting. You can then either use the equipment yourself or sell it to someone else (all in-game sales are taxed).
To prevent cheating, every game item has a serial # and a record is kept of all in-game transactions.
If you do manage to make money in-game, you can convert in-game money into cash, but there is also a conversion charge for this. I went to the company site and read the description of the game as told to investors. They hoped that the average cost of people playing the game would amount to about $1/hour of active playing!
While I played it in beta, I didn't put any of my $ into it. The one thing that really impressed me favorably was the amazing detail that was available for costomizing your character's appearance. There were something like 26 sliders for everthing from the shape of you eyebows to the pointyness of your chin.
-----
Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to legally sell game items and characters on a company run site where I could get something back for the time I invested playing. I'd be happy to let the company take 10% of the sales (sort of like in-game auctions).
However, I won't play a game like PE where you can't do anything without useful without paying for every little thing that you do. I'd rather pay a fixed monthly fee and only pay more if I wanted extra in-game perks or some special item that wasn't required in order to play.
Yes well, I find it negative when you mix real world things with the game-world affairs. Personally, it totally ruins the 'RPG' aspect
Hello there, adventurer!
I have never sold/bought any in-game items for RL$, but I don't see a problem with it. If during your "grind", you start accumulating a lot of stuff that you'll never need, and those items or money are worth someone else paying you for it, that is between you and them, and not the dev's. The dev's set up their system to make money off the players by charging a monthly fee. If you can find a way to support your monthly fee by selling items, then more power to you.
So it is with MMO's; the stuff in the game belongs to the company that runs the game and yoiu can't make money from it without their permission and typically they've stated that you can't. Therefore selling it is a crime.
Then of course there's the moral and ethical arguements if the legal ones don't suffice.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
I've seen those arguments before. I'd really like to see them tested in court. I'm fairly sure you would be correct and the dev's would win, but I don't think your analogy is quite "spot on".
I've seen it argued by people who sell their accounts, as selling their time spent building characters, not the characters themselves. I've also seen arguments where people claim they put the work into acquiring the items, and the items belong to them and they can be used/given/sold however they deem.
As far as morals/ethics, what do you propose is wrong with selling items that you acquire? You spent the time getting them, and maybe someone else doesn't have the "time" to invest in getting them, so they invest what they can - cash.
The characters and the accounts belong to the company who runs the game; the players let them from that company and thus cannot sell them for the reasons I gave in my prior post. You can't argue "I spent a year living in that flat so I can do what I like with it", likewise you can't argue the same thing about a character you've played for the same time. Likewise, irrespective of how much time you spent in a cinema or how how much you spent on the ticket you can't claim even part ownership of the movie. The same goes for things in MMO's; you pay and work to acquire them but they remain the intellectual property of the games company.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
Aside from concerns of legality and ownership fo virual goods versus the time spent in aquirig them or aquiring other virtual properties (what about reputation for example ?), the discussion seems to be more about how to deal with the issue pragmatically wihtout actually asipring to get the legalisties sorted out.
Was there someone argumenting about a closed-circle integration of ingame economies with the trade of virtual items for rl cash ?
That's a possible fourth method of exercising some control over this issue, and channelling the revenue from it directly towards game companies rather then third parties.
Imagine a situation in which you allow ingame monetary units (gold) to be traded for for example MMO store goodies or MMO gametime in the same MMO ? People looking for gold could translate their cash into gametime into gold, people with excess gold could translate their gold into gametime which essentially is cash tied up with a pre-determined goal of expenditure: playing that MMO longer, or getting goodies relatied to it (which are again products sold by the same company). Combined with an active repressive stance towards other RMT exchanges (like accounts for money or third-party selling of gold via intermediaries like IGE).
End result: money goes to game company, players can buy gold as long as there is demand for this semi-cash/gametime, players with excess gold can convert it into gametime/goodies. And the virtual economy is disturbed minimally because no additional gold is created with the purpose of conversion into cash anymore.
In a scope only limited by the demand demographics of the MMO population in question you should thus be able to put third party RMT out of business by and large.
It's a theoretical system I've argued about (without saying it is what I think should be done btw, just as a piece of argumentation for the sake of it) in the context of Eve-Online as an MMO. I still think that of all possible angles of 'attack' on the RMT issue that this may be the most viable that remains somewhat within the culture of MMO players disliking RMT as a form of cheating. Of course, it wouldn't work under all circumstances, and psossibly wont work well enough under any. But who knows untill its tried ?
For reference: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=253228
I'd be interested in where you see these kinds of limited control/repression combinations as possibilities with regard to the subject.
So what you are saying is that it's OK for rich little Johnny to buy in ten minutes what took poor old Jake a year to acquire? Sounds like yet another wedge between social classes to me. That's a bit too much real life in my game.
This wedge is especially damaging in PvP games, where he who has the most/best things wins. Games designed around itemization paved the way for the secondary market.
All the solutions I can think of limit or remove itemization and tie accounts to credit cards and/or physical addresses. That's another debate though.
I said in my post that this is not neccesarily a model I would personally support didn't I ?
So I did not say I feel it is ok for Johnny Trustfund to buy his way to the top.
Luckily, Eve-Online as a game doesn't really allow one to buy one's way to the top. Not if you lack the otehr requirements a highly succesfull player needs.
Aside from that there's the theoretical arguemnt that time = money and therefore a shortage of time may be compensated for by extra spending of money. I know, questionable, but there's something to be said for it in all honesty.
What it all comes down to for me however, is that the model I sketched is a pragmatic way of dealing with the RMT siutaiton in the MMO genre. One that is in between the Korean model of pay-per-use and the current stance most MMO publishers use that goes along the lines of "stick-head-in-sand".
Yes, its a compromise. But it is possible to exert some control of RMT behaviour of players this way and limit the effects of RMT on your game. Something no publisher can effectively do at this time.
I think it's a technically superior model. Morally superior ? Probably not, but then again, morals are subject to change in the world. Something we can't just deny.
Vote against the cheat with your feet. While some people think money buys everything it doesn't purchase self-respect. Buying game goods with RW money instead of earning them virtually is equivalent to doing a crossword puzzle with the answers open in front of you. Any game developer that facititates or tries to hone in on that sort of action should be boycotted by serious players until they fold or get smart. In fact , IMHO, given the addictiveness for some for online gaming, this business model is akin to video lottery terminals and is based on the same value system your local crack dealer.
Some things are just morally wrong no matter how much money you can make.
I love this. Let's see how far we go with this "moral" debate. 1st I'll state again, I have never bought or sold any in game stuff for rl money.
Is that the end of the moral debate? Or do you consider using knowledge gained from someone else or outside the game, to help yourself get ahead in the game morally wrong. For example. There are many strategy websites that offer walk thru's for quests, or how to kill certain monsters, etc out there. Is it morally wrong to utilize those to get ahead in the game, after all you didn't come by this information while playing in game. Another example, lets say you run into someone in game and they haven't done quest xyz, but you have and he asks you if you can help him do it. Do you help him, b/c you have the knowledge of what levers to pull, what corridors to go down, what npc's to talk to, etc. and it would be easy for you to help someone out.
Are those morally wrong? or is it just the selling of the stuff that is wrong? After all, in the second example you could say to the guy, yeah I'll help you out on the quest, but you need to give me x coin to do it.
I really dont see the problem with the whole issue at all. Just like in RL, the people with more money can afford bigger, better stuff. They Still have to buy it from the guy who works hard, both sides win.
I see alot of you arguing a moral debate on wether its right for rich kids to dominate the play, or people that actually work and dont have the time to put into a game compensating buy spending real cash. Hows this for a moral argument, is it better to spend your life living of whatever government benefits your country provides and play a game 24/7, or actually get a real job, and spend some of that real money replacing time in the game.
The only area this subject really gets in trouble is when we include hacks/cheats/dupes/bots ect, and companies that dont actively shut these things down.
Also, what other reasons would a developer have to complain about trading for real cash other than they dont get a slice, i cant see it altering thier profit margins, especially if its a subscription based revenue, and as its not condoned behaviour they cant really be sued for anything after all if you trade outside the game, then it is OUTSIDE the game. Not the game maker/developers responsibilty.
I have bought and sold in game items before for a variety of games, and would do it again. Its an extra dimension that adds to the game for those interested without detracting from the experience of those that dont
Its not the rich kids causing issues. To me, its about the big farming companies. I dont mind if someone (an individiual) wants to make a job out of playing a game and selling what they collect.
Personally, I dont buy anything with cash, I prefer to earn what I get in game. Those that want to buy, let them. It dosnt really have much to do with my gameplay. If I group up with a jerk, I dont group with him again. So if someone buys their gear or character, as long as they can play, why do I care how they got it? I play my way, they play theirs. We still have choices.
As long as the developers work hard at making it difficult to camp items, I am okay. I just dont want to truly need something in game...and be forced to either never get it or buy it because its so camped that I cant get to it myself.
This is already an issue for us small group types and solo folks...there are many things we will never get in game...not because we dont want to, but because we dont choose to join a big guild. So, if someone that solos wants to get a few of those cool items with cash, rather than join an "uber guild", again, I see no issue.
Keep the games so the players that play for fun still have the ability to get what they need and those that want to buy their way to the top can...but at NO cost to the other players. By cost I mean, dont have bottlenecks where farmers spend all their time collecting and no other players can get through.
Whew...=)