Is lore important in an rvr game ? For me......no. Holding sacrosanct the core concept of perpetual realm vs realm warfare in witch you can only play in one realm per server is critical.
Lore matters to me. It helps define what my character is and isn't and allows me to sort of "go with the lore" or "break with the lore" in a way that makes sense in the game world.
Respectfully, I would take a complete 180 stance. I would prefer to define my character myself. I dislike being forced one way or another or down a very narrow path (example: WoW's current talent "tree"). Give me something with a lot of options and I will define my own character TYVM.
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It sort of depends on how the game is designed. If its compelling and tied into the story it can matter a lot. A lot of people feel more driven if they have an emotional connection to the events of the world. Now if lore equates to a history that has no connection to the game, then I'd say why waste the time unless someone just wants to create it for fun.
My dream game might include a rich lore that contains clues to what may come and a more practical lore that you can see and interact with in the game world. That way those inclined might have some interesting if not always correct insights and others could just enjoy seeing common themes that help tie together and enrich their world.
It depends what you mean by 'lore'... if you mean pages of text that you have to go out of game (or even in game) to read just to get a bit of backstory on some minor NPC ( :cough: Destiny :cough: ) then it may as well not exist. And if you mean lore that overly restricts player (or developer) freedom (e.g. Dwarfs cannot, under any circumstances, be mages), then I would prefer it didn't exist.
But if you mean (and I suspect you do) all the little details woven into the very fabric of the game world to make it feel, for want of a better term, 'lived-in', then yes, lore is very important, especially for any sort of game that is trying to make players feel a connection to it (i.e. care about the game world and what happens in it).
To me Lore matters but just like the entire game,it all has to be designed around each other.
That is why i detest linear questing which then becomes end game loot chasing.These two ideas have NOTHING to do with a game world,nothing to do with Lore and in all honesty none of the game world matters except chasing yellow markers around all game until end game loot chasing.
I can put it in another way,why bother to even make a game world and have Lore if all you do is chase yellow markers around?Why create the entire game universe if all you want to do is race to end level to chase the best loot?I detest that type of gaming because in reality,all you need to do is create an empty blank world,just plot down some yellow markers,create some instance maps and that is your game in a nutshell. So yes Lore and my entire game existence should be centered around that lore,the combat should have the lore built into it,the quests again same thing.The stories should be centered around the Lore as well.I don't want some random "living story" crap where we just make up random shit as we go along.I don't want to see a Lego map or a super Mario theme map when that has NOTHING to do with the Lore of the game.I think you can see i am pointing the finger at GW2 and how the game is just a random mess of ideas with no real solid thought out design around Lore.Yes they did a good job in creating some story or prelude to the game,but i need to see that in the entire game not in some prelude speech.
Now one game that TRIED to do it right was that Trion game...Defiance,it built up the lore and tried to recreate it to the tee in the game.Just too bad not enough creativity and effort went into the game or it could have been good.
I wasn't a big fan of Defiance, mostly because it was a third person shooter, but i think the game suffered a bit too much from being tied to the tv program, which imo wasn't very good at all. Perhaps if they had tried harder at making the game better than more like the tv program, it would have had more success?
So, column starts out saying that it will define what lore is first, so we can have the discussion, then doesn't define what lore is....not the best of starts!
In my opinion, lore is completely superfluous and you can create a great game without any lore at all. But, lore in its various forms adds layers to your game which can increase the fun for *some* people. Personally, I enjoy small amounts of lore that add context to the game. A basic setting / backstory for the world plus a strong "theme" for each class, to keep them coherent. Beyond that, most lore tends to distract me from actual gameplay and reduces my experience.
I think my main reason for not enjoying the lore is the way in which you encounter the lore. When I'm playing a game, I want to *play* the game. I don't want to stand around listening to NPCs talk. I don't want endless quest text. I don't want to read in-game books or anything like that. But, that is the form that most "deep" lore comes in, but it bores me and takes time away from gameplay so I ignore as much as possible.
But, acquiring lore outside of the game, I'm all in favour of that. Reading books, websites etc is all great. Its something I can do during time periods when I'm unable to game (such as slacking off at work, or reading a book in bed) and will encourage me to play the game more. For example, reading the LotR books always makes me want to play the MMO and visit some of the places again, but once I'm in game I don't want to stand around listening to Bilbo talk about the troll encounter for example.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Honestly, when those annoying lore messages pop-up I hit the escape button or spacebar as fast as I can....I'd rather make my own lore than to sit there and read someone elses fantasy....
Story matters. Lore can be used as a framework in which the story is situated. In that case lore matters for the story and the game.
A game without a story is difficult to envision, especially when that game is an rpg. The question is whether an rpg needs more lore then is required by the story?
A sandbox mmorpg would not need any lore produced by the game developer, because the role-player would create their own stories and lore. However, lore would help to channel the role-play, so that players will find common ground to role-play their stories.
Lore however can restrict game-play, so that players cannot play the game the way they want to play it. Especially, when lore dictates game mechanics.
So, yeah, lore seems to matter when it is present. However, the question remains how lore should be presented. Or be presented at all in an isolated form in a game. But the latter was probably the question asked.
Well, that's the thing, I'm not a "role player" like other people are role players. But I do like playing a "role" in the world and creating a backstory and aligning with, or breaking with, what the world has defined as notable places, people, artifacts, etc.
Heck, I changed the color of my Valkyrie's hair in Black Desert as I didn't realize that Valyries in their academy were all red heads.
Now, I "could" have kept the different color hair and created a reason why it was different but for this character I felt that aligning with that academy felt more interesting so that is why the change.
I'm not going to go out and "role play" as a Valkyrie but I like the idea of creating a "character" and having that character be a part of the world, it's interesting to me.
to be honest I think if you were to sit down and someone was to ask you point blank and expect a thoughtful answer and they asked you 'is lore by far the most important reason you are intrested in DAoC above pretty much all other factors' that you could not honestly say yes.
I like Star Trek, I like Star Trek Lore, but I wouldnt touch Star Trek online. why? because the game itself looks like it sucks balz
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
People automatically hate lore because it gives you guidelines and restrictions. We are living in that generation where everyone thinks they can be anything or would like to believe so. Then you end up with Dwarven magic users and Half-Giant assassins. Gnome warriors and the sort. It is lore that puts all of this in proper perspective. Any player without imagination will immediately try to tear down anything that resembles lore all for the sake of "freedom". Not realizing you have completely destroyed a perfectly good gaming world in the process only to make everyone blend perfectly into being the same.
Trolls,Goblins,Orcs,Humans,Gnomes all act the same, eat the same items, have the same classes. This is just really bad gaming and there is no excuse for it.
People automatically hate lore because it gives you guidelines and restrictions. We are living in that generation where everyone thinks they can be anything or would like to believe so. Then you end up with Dwarven magic users and Half-Giant assassins. Gnome warriors and the sort. It is lore that puts all of this in proper perspective. Any player without imagination will immediately try to tear down anything that resembles lore all for the sake of "freedom". Not realizing you have completely destroyed a perfectly good gaming world in the process only to make everyone blend perfectly into being the same.
Trolls,Goblins,Orcs,Humans,Gnomes all act the same, eat the same items, have the same classes. This is just really bad gaming and there is no excuse for it.
I find 'light lore' as in 'game genre lore' to be helpful in understanding why I have feet. However being publically educated in the States generally gives me the background of such Lore without even reading it. (aka I know a little bit about Native Amercians, I know blacks were slaves and I know elfs have pointed ears)
I find 'medium lore' to be not remotely interesting and I usually dont pay attention to it.
I find forced story as painful as a metaphoric fork in the eye
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Lore has little relevance to me. Or at least that used to be the case. Normally I just study the available classes and the game play mechanics for an upcoming game. Especially the UI. Is 3rd person view available? Is autorun available? Are ease of use modding available, etc.
A game won my patronage, or not, based of this analyses.
Now steps in crowd funding. The game is only an idea and the UI elements are mere developer thoughts that can change over time. So...
Now, I have nothing better to do during development than read the lore and discussions on the evolving UI.
Having been forced to read the lore I have garnered a greater appreciation of the game world and all of its inhabitants. This is a good thing. Knowing the tortured past of a race helps to develop empathy in my characters and their ancestry. But I want to play ....not read!
Bottom line, lore still sucks but I have a far greater appreciation for it and its importance. And who knows, I may learn to love it, in time.
I enjoy lore in single player games like Witcher 3. MMORPG don't often present lore in a compelling manner, and when you are given a questline that is lore-heavy, you end up doing a very forgettable quest. So, yes, I really enjoy character/world lore when it's presented well, but the overwhelming majority of MMORPG's suck at telling a story.
Well, that's the thing, I'm not a "role player" like other people are role players. But I do like playing a "role" in the world and creating a backstory and aligning with, or breaking with, what the world has defined as notable places, people, artifacts, etc.
Heck, I changed the color of my Valkyrie's hair in Black Desert as I didn't realize that Valyries in their academy were all red heads.
Now, I "could" have kept the different color hair and created a reason why it was different but for this character I felt that aligning with that academy felt more interesting so that is why the change.
I'm not going to go out and "role play" as a Valkyrie but I like the idea of creating a "character" and having that character be a part of the world, it's interesting to me.
I do the same. I think of a concept, and I run with it. If I want to be a 'demonogoist' for example, I will do everything from colors to abilities to support it. I do sacrifice the 'perfect build' because of this, but I enjoy the 'in-character' playing.
Lore has little relevance to me. Or at least that used to be the case. Normally I just study the available classes and the game play mechanics for an upcoming game. Especially the UI. Is 3rd person view available? Is autorun available? Are ease of use modding available, etc.
A game won my patronage, or not, based of this analyses.
Now steps in crowd funding. The game is only an idea and the UI elements are mere developer thoughts that can change over time. So...
Now, I have nothing better to do during development than read the lore and discussions on the evolving UI.
Having been forced to read the lore I have garnered a greater appreciation of the game world and all of its inhabitants. This is a good thing. Knowing the tortured past of a race helps to develop empathy in my characters and their ancestry. But I want to play ....not read!
Bottom line, lore still sucks but I have a far greater appreciation for it and its importance. And who knows, I may learn to love it, in time.
'forced' really gets under my skin.
The only game I have played in which i actually am interested in learning more about the Lore is Elite Dangerous.
I will let others try to figure out why that is
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Lore is great, until it limits the developers ability to add or change stuff about their game.
I am a bigger fan of lite lore, like in Dark Souls or Limbo. Like, when you play and see the environments you can tell the place used to be rich with life or people or w/e. It makes you wanna dig into it more and find out more about what happened to these places. Or why a character acts or looks the way that they look.
It matters roughly as much as the mechanics, for me. I've had cases where great lore kept me going through crappy gameplay (Shadowbane), where great lore convinced me the gameplay was better than it was (EVE, LotRO), and where great gameplay convinced me the lore was better than it was (EverQuest, Vanguard).
But possibly the most important thing for me in game design is that the lore and mechanics are woven together well. Nothing grinds my gears quite like a steep disconnect between the two. If the world you're building is at odds with the game you're building, one of them quickly comes off as pointless filler, a mere marketing arm of the other facet, and unless you also have a line of novels in that setting, it's probably going to be the lore.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Lore is great, until it limits the developers ability to add or change stuff about their game.
I am a bigger fan of lite lore, like in Dark Souls or Limbo. Like, when you play and see the environments you can tell the place used to be rich with life or people or w/e. It makes you wanna dig into it more and find out more about what happened to these places. Or why a character acts or looks the way that they look.
I very much agree with your 2nd paragraph but not the first. Having limitations is actually good.
I like what Stravinsky has to say about limitations:
Lore has everything to do with what type of game this is. CU means to bring you into a well developed fantasy world just like DAoC did. In fact, all mmos are based on lore and the old mmorpgs were created because of lore. These games do not exist with out it.
Why? Even Mark J openly explains that CU has very heavy RPG origins. He wants his modern mmo to have a feel of role playing games (pnp), MUDs and old school mmorpgs. Games like EQ and Asheron's Call would not exist nor had their success without lore. The great old mmorpgs were made great because of it. As troubled as Anarchy Online was it still was incredibly thick in lore and unique sci-fi feel. This has nothing to do with forcing players to RP. The RP of simply playing in a game world that is real to you is enough and only exists by it's lore, art direction that drives system and mechanic creation.
Specifically for CU, if you did not play DAoC I would suggest you do not likely have the background to fully comment on the importance of lore in a Mark Jacob RvR game (I exclude WAR because MJ admittedly lost control over the direction he wanted for the game). The RvR only exists because of the lore. It is the driving force behind everything in the game and brings a completely unique feel lacking in games mirroring classes and allowing cross faction game play/phasing.
Comments
Respectfully, I would take a complete 180 stance. I would prefer to define my character myself. I dislike being forced one way or another or down a very narrow path (example: WoW's current talent "tree"). Give me something with a lot of options and I will define my own character TYVM.
My dream game might include a rich lore that contains clues to what may come and a more practical lore that you can see and interact with in the game world. That way those inclined might have some interesting if not always correct insights and others could just enjoy seeing common themes that help tie together and enrich their world.
But if you mean (and I suspect you do) all the little details woven into the very fabric of the game world to make it feel, for want of a better term, 'lived-in', then yes, lore is very important, especially for any sort of game that is trying to make players feel a connection to it (i.e. care about the game world and what happens in it).
Perhaps if they had tried harder at making the game better than more like the tv program, it would have had more success?
In my opinion, lore is completely superfluous and you can create a great game without any lore at all. But, lore in its various forms adds layers to your game which can increase the fun for *some* people. Personally, I enjoy small amounts of lore that add context to the game. A basic setting / backstory for the world plus a strong "theme" for each class, to keep them coherent. Beyond that, most lore tends to distract me from actual gameplay and reduces my experience.
I think my main reason for not enjoying the lore is the way in which you encounter the lore. When I'm playing a game, I want to *play* the game. I don't want to stand around listening to NPCs talk. I don't want endless quest text. I don't want to read in-game books or anything like that. But, that is the form that most "deep" lore comes in, but it bores me and takes time away from gameplay so I ignore as much as possible.
But, acquiring lore outside of the game, I'm all in favour of that. Reading books, websites etc is all great. Its something I can do during time periods when I'm unable to game (such as slacking off at work, or reading a book in bed) and will encourage me to play the game more. For example, reading the LotR books always makes me want to play the MMO and visit some of the places again, but once I'm in game I don't want to stand around listening to Bilbo talk about the troll encounter for example.
To me.. Lore is something you experience
Lore can be used as a framework in which the story is situated.
In that case lore matters for the story and the game.
A game without a story is difficult to envision, especially when that game is an rpg.
The question is whether an rpg needs more lore then is required by the story?
A sandbox mmorpg would not need any lore produced by the game developer, because the role-player would create their own stories and lore. However, lore would help to channel the role-play, so that players will find common ground to role-play their stories.
Lore however can restrict game-play, so that players cannot play the game the way they want to play it. Especially, when lore dictates game mechanics.
So, yeah, lore seems to matter when it is present. However, the question remains how lore should be presented. Or be presented at all in an isolated form in a game. But the latter was probably the question asked.
It takes one to know one.
I like Star Trek, I like Star Trek Lore, but I wouldnt touch Star Trek online. why? because the game itself looks like it sucks balz
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Trolls,Goblins,Orcs,Humans,Gnomes all act the same, eat the same items, have the same classes. This is just really bad gaming and there is no excuse for it.
I find 'medium lore' to be not remotely interesting and I usually dont pay attention to it.
I find forced story as painful as a metaphoric fork in the eye
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
A game won my patronage, or not, based of this analyses.
Now steps in crowd funding. The game is only an idea and the UI elements are mere developer thoughts that can change over time. So...
Now, I have nothing better to do during development than read the lore and discussions on the evolving UI.
Having been forced to read the lore I have garnered a greater appreciation of the game world and all of its inhabitants. This is a good thing. Knowing the tortured past of a race helps to develop empathy in my characters and their ancestry. But I want to play ....not read!
Bottom line, lore still sucks but I have a far greater appreciation for it and its importance. And who knows, I may learn to love it, in time.
Nanulak
I self identify as a monkey.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I am a bigger fan of lite lore, like in Dark Souls or Limbo. Like, when you play and see the environments you can tell the place used to be rich with life or people or w/e. It makes you wanna dig into it more and find out more about what happened to these places. Or why a character acts or looks the way that they look.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
But possibly the most important thing for me in game design is that the lore and mechanics are woven together well. Nothing grinds my gears quite like a steep disconnect between the two. If the world you're building is at odds with the game you're building, one of them quickly comes off as pointless filler, a mere marketing arm of the other facet, and unless you also have a line of novels in that setting, it's probably going to be the lore.
I like what Stravinsky has to say about limitations:
http://jorielle-music.blogspot.com/2005/06/stravinsky-on-acceptance-of-limits-as.html
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Why? Even Mark J openly explains that CU has very heavy RPG origins. He wants his modern mmo to have a feel of role playing games (pnp), MUDs and old school mmorpgs. Games like EQ and Asheron's Call would not exist nor had their success without lore. The great old mmorpgs were made great because of it. As troubled as Anarchy Online was it still was incredibly thick in lore and unique sci-fi feel. This has nothing to do with forcing players to RP. The RP of simply playing in a game world that is real to you is enough and only exists by it's lore, art direction that drives system and mechanic creation.
Specifically for CU, if you did not play DAoC I would suggest you do not likely have the background to fully comment on the importance of lore in a Mark Jacob RvR game (I exclude WAR because MJ admittedly lost control over the direction he wanted for the game). The RvR only exists because of the lore. It is the driving force behind everything in the game and brings a completely unique feel lacking in games mirroring classes and allowing cross faction game play/phasing.
You stay sassy!