a couple things about the article. garrett, i think your readers would have been well served if you had made it clearer that Blizzard (the original studio in SoCal) responsible for warcraft/starcrat and Blizzard North, who created Diablo were basically 2 seperate teams. Diablo developed almost 100% by Condor Games, and Blizzard bought out the company in 1996, in order to release Diablo and converted Condor to Blizzard North. The people working at Blizzard now basically had nothing to do with Diablo
As other posters have stated. the stuff that Blizzard actually put out... WC series and Starcraft... are almost entirely based on Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. Of course the gameplay is heavily indebted to Dune (as are all RTS) but the structure of both these games are basically PC ports of Games Workshop products. Anyone at all familiar with warhammer can recognize the similarities, starting with the particular similarities of the factions/races upon which both games are built (zerg, protoss, green-skinned war-bent orcs). but even more damning is plagurism down to the PECULARITIES of the warhammer universe. there's very very few fantasy realms set in germanic steam-tech universes for example (steam tanks etc) and the whole fantasy mixed with cosmic origins backstory of the warcraft universe is directly from Warhammer... down to the idea of "Titans" or immortals seeding planets in the universe with life and planar rifts that bring evil onto the planet etc. across the board, if you consider the RTS races and units and the Lore of the game you can almost 100% find an analogue that inspired it from warhammer
garrett is also remiss in not emphasizing that Mythic Entertainment, and not Goblin Workshop will be primarily driving this game. in fact this is the 2nd studio in the past 2-3 years that GW has given the Warhammer MMPOG license to. given the heavy "borrowing" of blizzard from GW, it's perhaps a twist of karma that Mythic is developing this game. of course, Mythic is most famous for Dark Age of Camelot and is also famous for the insistence of Mythic's founder and CEO, Mark Jacobs, of "following the market leader" for its games. In short, Mark Jacobs has unabashedly and happily copied whatever games were MOST successful at the time in developing his game. He's was upfront after the release of DAOC that it was made with an eye on adapting the mechanics of Everquest (the market leader at the time). Similarly, Mark blankly stated that their next game "Imperator" was to be a copy and competitor of Star Wars Galaxies (which was expected at the time to be the "next big thing"). when SWG bombed, Mythic promptly canceled development on Imperator and moved resources to its next flagship game: warhammer. In short, considering the enormous success of WOW expect Warhammer to be a faithful rendition of that game. If you see the screens, it seems as much indebted to the light, Disney palate of WOW than the dark world that is warhammer. Likewise, expect the game mechanics to reflect the simplicty and balance of WOW, as much as Warhammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... it can only mean that both fans of WOW and Warhammer will give the game a try
so, as warcraft borrowed from warhammer, in the online incarnation at least, the circle will be complete.
mythic is a great company actually in what they do. i expect a huge success for warhammer online
First of all, I would like to point out that what Mark Jacobs actually said was that ALL gaming companies take what they like from a game or idea and make it their own.
To continue, I also agree that the comparison to WoW is unfair. It is based solely on two aspects. First aspect being Graphics, and the Second aspect being the Prescence of Orcs and Dwarves.
I find the comparison to be highly arbitrary. Many Succesful games Looked like others. While Blizzard seems to have been "Innovative" by mixing realism and Cartoony Asianism in its Online game, remember that WoW is not the first game to do this. Rather it is only the first game to do this Online (to my knowledge). Also it has been pointed out that Orcs, when originally starting out in fantasy, were GREY. They were not Green until Games Workshop incorporated them into Warhammer. Since then, of Course, Orcs have stayed Green. Also ,as I understand it, Mythic plans on Going into Much more detail in the character modeling by using a reverse route from WoW (dont quote me but I seem to remember this). Basically WoW uses High Polygon models with low res Textures and Skins. Mythic plans on using Low Polygon Models with High Res Textures and Skins. Again Im am not positive on this but it seems evident in the screenshots due to Much higher detail. Also Mythic states that EVERYTHING in development goes to Games Workshop for approval. And, furthermore, Games Workshop representative Paul Barnet himself has stated that they dont want W.A.R. to be as dark and Depressing as the Warhammer Lore.
As for the rest of the comparison? All I can say is that Orcs and Dwarves have existed in Fantasy and Mythology for an EXTREMELY long time. Dwarves going as far back as the original Manuscripts of Beowulf, and are Steeped in Norse Mythology. So, when it comes to Fantasy (or was Beowulf based on real accounts??) Nothing will ever be really Original with the orcs and Dwarves. They will Always be just another incarnation.
To finish, I liked this article for what Garrett Tried to say, but, as has been stated before, He seemed to have trouble getting what I believe to be his point accross.
OK.... A few things i want to say, one being that YOU ALL NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SPELL. The spelling and grammer on this thread is horrible. (and thats not including the Acronyms like MMO , which is suppose to be spelt mmoRPG!!!!).
Another thing is that i think youve all forgotten about Dungons and Dragons. Games Workshops' Warhammer world and mosters are directly related and based off D&D. The D&D Orcs were very different to Tolkien's Orcs being that D&D orcs are Huge and Tough and won by sheer might, much unlike Tolkien's Little and shrimpy orcs that were made to win with pure outnumbering. So although the idea of orcs may have only been in D&D because they were used from Tolkein's writing's. Games Workshop was not copying Tolkien they were copying Dungeons and Dragons.
So it is unfair to say that Blizzard was copying the orcs from Warhammer where Warhammer Orcs were already copied, making it unfair to say that either game is copying the other for they are both already getting outside sources not relating to Blizzard or Gamesworkshop.
- You Can't Tell the difference between Red and Blue if all you can see is Yellow.
First, this is an online discussion board so Grammar problems will arise. Get used to it.
.
Second, if you got the information that the poster was trying to convey, then they did their job.
.
Third, before Flaming other users, which by-the-way is extremely rude, maybe you should proofread your own stuff. Like your spelling which I will quote as, "Dungons". I believe it is spelled as "Dungeons". Of course, I dont fault you for making an honest typing mistake.
.
In the future please try to remember not everyone is as particular about details as you, and some people might not be that good a Typing.
After reading the authers post and the 3 pages of heavy disscution I feel worn out, however its a good worn, like when you have achived somthing,
The majority of people posting here know what there talking about and have explained themselves well, those who do not seem to have been the one's that have flamed.
Now before my opinion on the matter at hand WoW to WAR, I'd like to go back a little further first to 1917 were a man called John Ronald Reuel Tolkien startd to build his own world: Middle Earth, He dies in 1973, "The Silmarallion" is relised in 1977 and "The history's of Middle Earth" 12 volumes in total are relised there after. In this time, (Back to 1971) D&D has been realised, baised on "The Hobbit" and the 3 "Lord of the Rings" books, this is a game for people who wished to realy be in the world of middle earth, this developed in its own way as time progressed onward, as a pen and paper game.
In 1983 a board game is realised called "Warhammer" were our aritcal auther explanes in a vage detail about what it is, to compaire a table top game to a Pen and paper game is unfair, but people still do it, Warhammer when it is realised gives its own image to the orcs, goblins, Elves and dwarves that enhabbit its world. The Original Elves of Warhammer had aline like eyes, that were fully black thin and crunning, they made there orcs and goblins green taking away the grey colours of the tolkin world, there female dwarves did not have beards as in the D&D and tolkin worlds.
For all to see it was based on these things turning its self in to a full table top game, it was unique and at the same time a copy of what had been before,
The Company as it is today have finalised what everything should look like, act like and respond to other races in the world, it has pushed its self away from the LotR and D&D worlds and forged its own,
Over the yearsit has realised many computer games: as some one way back asked "What succsessful PC Warhammer titels have been realise?" <or somthing like that I'm tired and not going back to find the exact quote>
Try: Shadow Of The Horned Rat, without this game you would not have the total war serise. SotHR was relised 11/30/95 Shougan 06/13/00, sure it is a lot better, but thats to be expected, the point of it is though that the warhammer game was the first and showed a new game style that could be done.
Try: Fire Warrior, suree nothing oper special but a big hit on the Playstation, if it wasnt I don't think they would be putting a sequil together.
Try: Dawn of War, Game of the Year 2004. need I say more?
Moving on, Blizzard as it stands look like they heavly pulled from the Warhammer world, as some one before said, probably a fantasy fan that had warhammer as his favourt game, there are suttle hints in WC3 to the fan too, the dwarf riding the gryphon quotes "Du ya like ma Warhammer? it cost 40K, 40K da ya get it?" - Erm yeah we ALL get it, those who have $2 to us,
As more and more people become aware of the game WAR, they see green orcs, battling dwarves and so on, the "kiddy" generation of WoW players that know almost nothing of Warhammer or Warcraft are going to see it as a WoW clone, this in some ways I can say will be true, WoW is older than WAR so its going to be compared, but going full ways back Warcraft is just a copy or Warhammer, not a carbon copy but a copy set down non the less and from Warhamer, Middle Earth before that.
For those who have followed this game from it being a table top based MMO, to the Warhammer Online (climax) version, to its death to the resurection with Warhammer Age of Reckogning, we await this game with baited breath, the team working on this game grows rapidly and we await this mother of MMO's with baited breath,
I'm not saying I'll cancel my WoW subscription on the day WAR is realised, but if it lives up to what every single MMO player is hoping it to be it will cause a stir in the market, and pull in huge numbers of players.
Hope you have taken the time to rad my comments and understand what I've tried to say, I wanted to basicly add a little to what I thinkt he auther ment, and respond to some of the stupid posts of people flaming a game that isnt even out.
Quite frankly until warhammer is released no one should have anything to say in comparison because we have not played the game. Visually? Who cares...game play is what matters and if you dont know that by now, go play EQ2. hah.
Also Starcraft was a direct Rip of war40k and from what i have heard part of the reason ghost got cut is cause of lawsuits with games workshop
BTW Silhouette83your poll up there asks 2 questions that are oposites and then gives yes or no answers...yes/no to what question?
As to the main question of this Topic...I feel any company that enters the genre of fantasy is butting heads with any other mmo in the same genre. With WoW as the leading fantasy champion and War as the most looked forward to newcommer of course they will butt heads and they should be compared...you said yourself eventually you will only have an account with one, as will most everyone else. One of these companys will come out on top in the fantasy genre and to be honest my money is on Blizz, nodoubt people will drift over to War to try it out but I forsee a lot of them drifting back.
Part of WoWs lead is because it is so carebear friendly, and a lot of its players it has dragged in from outside the mmo market. These are not players who will enjoy a RvR in my opinion...these are players who enjoy getting that next item from an instance and fighting against NPCs that they know will react this or that way. Its true that WoWs BGs will empty of a lot of the more hardcore PvP players but WoW is already taking the steps to have cross realm BGs that will more then make up for the lack.
My personal feelings are that GW should have tried to pick up the slack from SWG and PS's decline. Now is the time for a new Sci Fi game to step up and gather together the lost and hudled masses of players that are feeling abandoned by SoE. And to be quite honest Auto Assault doenst make the cut. A war40k mmo could have done so well right now, but it looks like TR is gonna steal the show.
Meanwhile WoW and War are gonna dump money into thier compeating projects untill one of them has to cut their losses. (another reason I believe ghost was cut, they need all hands on their flagship) Well see who wins the fight...but make no mistake their will be a fight for players between the two.
Disclaimer: I have little or no basis for my opinions exept how I feel the mmo market is at this time. They are just my opinions
Thanks for making this article not only did it teach me even more about them being diffrent and not much alike but i doubt plp will listen to some kid (me) rather then u who wrote a lot.
Excluding anchient myphology. Orcs first appered in Lord of the rings as did goblins. They were then fleshed out in the origonal Dungeons and dragons game.
Then warhammer came out and it was then that orcs turned green causing an uproar among traditional RPG'ers.
Then in 1994 Warcraft came out the rest is history.
I agree that WoW took a lot from other games and books but in the end they did make a solid game. Of course i played it once and didnt like it but that isant the issue here the issue is that YES wow did copy of warhammer but then again warhammer coppied of Lord of the rings and Dungeons and dragons.
It's an interesting thread, however there is a focus that i would like to redirect. simply put, i think comparing the 2 games is easy to get lost into, but to compare the companies ability is something i consider far more valueable. As far as anticipating the play value of this game i can say its an iffy one. world of warcraft is a big contender with the famed blizzard name backing it, in addition blizzard creates its games on a simple foundation, then goes from there.
know that i admit, i dont know a lot about warhammer other than seeing a HUGE potential for an mmorpg. i have played warhammer: dawn of war, and fell in love with it. the company that created warhammer tends to do its own thing, which is good an bad of course. the good can be found (in my opinion) in warhammer: dawn of war. the recource system was like that of no other rts that ive ever played, it led to a faster game play as opposed to the classic 5 minutes of building recources. then we examine the bad, the internet play of this game lacked any real respect for its players. long wait times, non-simplistic methods of getting a game together, and possibly the worst of all has to be game spy. with mythics aid in this problem of online play should be fixed.
blizzard however, has a way of taking everything that thier games have to offer, stripping it of everything save for the essentials and creating a game play that is fun and has a sort of novilty to it. this is apparent in the warcraft series, IE wc3. in warcraft 3 the player is left to search through mainly unite combos, creep innovations, and base build design/order. its like this because of the simplicity, lets use tier 1 for example. every race starts with 1 melee unit, 1 ranged unit (exception is NE with first tier siege to compisate for thier melee's vulnerability to ranged attacks, think towers.), upgrades are 1 of 4 to upgrade the attack and defensive power of units. of course while the simplicity of this has its benefits, it sustains less of an interesting play time. this too is apparent in the seemingly reduntant world of warcraft (i have a 60 dwarf on shadow moon by the name of killrogin. ive been to AQ40 downed 3rd boss)
the companies design style is different, however 1 is more reliable than the other. the 2 things that, in my opinion, will make or break warhammer online will be the vast availability/rewards of pvp as well as the speed and skill level involved in pvp, and secondly the difference in the look of warhammer to warcraft. warcraft is cartoony, which MANY people dislike. it gives it an unrealistic feel of the game, a sense of censorship, and a less rewarding, exilerating fight in raids. however, if mythic makes the game give a sense of adult like combat, fantasy, and gameplay it would have a big advantage over world of warcraft.
i end saying this, i personally, am tired of world of warcrack. at this point its mundain, repetative, and simply irritating to play. i have heard this phrase to discribe it perfectly, the way i feel about wow,"its not a great game, there simply isnt anything out there thats better."
Both companies use the green skin arch-type for these creatures.
Both companies do not use the green skin "arch-type" for orcs, Games Workshope GAVE us the green skin arch-type or orcs. Almost all fantasy these days uses Tolkien for its roots, but Games Workshop played with it, made the Warhammer world their own in the same way Terry Pratchett has with the Discworld.
You can almost forget that Warhammer came from Tolkien and D&D because it's become iconic, you can't really say the same for Warcraft. I don't think many people who know both can look at Warcraft and not think of Warhammer.
Blizzard on the other hand really don't seem to have a original bone in their bodies, so they turned Goblins from drug users into business men. Wow, that must have taken all of 10 mins.
It doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing their games though, I love The Seven Samurai but that doesn't mean I can't love The Magnificent Seven just as much.
Originally posted by Shoal Blizzard has been on the map with Warcraft for many years and many blockbuster games, starting with 'Warcraft: Orcs vs. Humans'. What great games have been based on Warhammer?
Well, let's think. What great computer games have been based on Warhammer?
Hm, how about Warcraft: Orcs and Humans?
I know we've covered this ground already, but I can't help but feel it's so misleading to see the two sentences I quoted above placed side by side.
Originally posted by Teebal OK.... A few things i want to say, one being that YOU ALL NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SPELL. capital letters misused The spelling and grammer spelt grammar :P on this thread is horrible. (and thats punctuation needed not including the Acronyms like MMO , which is suppose to be spelt mmoRPG!!!!).
Another thing is that i think youve punctuation needed all forgotten about Dungons check spelling and Dragons. Games Workshops' Warhammer world and mosters check spelling are directly related and based off D&D. The D&D Orcs were very different to Tolkien's Orcs being that D&D orcs are Huge and Tough and won by sheer might, much unlike Tolkien's Little capital letter not needed and shrimpy orcs that were made to win with pure outnumbering. So although the idea of orcs may have only been in D&D because they were used from Tolkein's writing's may want to correct - rephrase. Games Workshop was not copying Tolkien they were copying Dungeons and Dragons.
So it is unfair to say that Blizzard was copying the orcs from Warhammer where Warhammer Orcs were already copied, making it unfair to say that either game is copying the other for they are both already getting outside sources not relating to Blizzard or Gamesworkshop.
- You Can't Tell the difference between Red and Blue if all you can see is Yellow.
I found some spelling and grammatical errors in your post for you since you seem be so critical about them moron. You even spelt grammar wrong which is kinda ironic since you were complaining about everyone elses.
Meh, leave grammar behind, WAR cant match WoW, no matter how good it is, I even mean if it's the best game ever made EVER! the sheer fan base behind WoW is staggering! Leave WAR for the plastic fanactics and join WOW, my priest will whoop u're ass (if not i'll bring my shammy out again :P)
After reading that article written to disprove the similarities between the two games, I feel that the games are even more alike than I orginally expected. lol job not well done in your debunking of WoW = WAR.
Originally posted by Stellos After reading that article written to disprove the similarities between the two games, I feel that the games are even more alike than I orginally expected. lol job not well done in your debunking of WoW = WAR.
agree. Who cares who came first of who ripped off whom. The games are still horribly similar in design, concept, and play.
Much like the rise and fall of Rome SWG was a great and beautiful Empire only to be completely corrupted and ruined by greedy men (SOE)
Originally posted by Shoal Mr. Fuller misses the mark again with an article that wanders widely, focuses nowhere, and has no hard data. Heck, in the middle of his comparisons of WoW to WaR, he blurts out : "It frustrates me to see writers comparing Warhammer to Warcraft.". Well duh! Also, Mr. Fuller needs to understand that this is MMORPG games we are talking about here. Blizzard has been on the map with Warcraft for many years and many blockbuster games, starting with 'Warcraft: Orcs vs. Humans'. What great games have been based on Warhammer? All flops. Mythic is a great, great, maker of MMORPG and much can be expected of them. But, I think it is premature to be making any comparissons WoW to WaR. Let's remember what happened to Mythic's last great project, Imperator, and not count our MMORPGs before they hatch.
um, World of Warcraft.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Krosa Originally posted by StellosAfter reading that article written to disprove the similarities between the two games, I feel that the games are even more alike than I orginally expected. lol job not well done in your debunking of WoW = WAR.
agree. Who cares who came first of who ripped off whom. The games are still horribly similar in design, concept, and play.
Lets see
WOW Easter-bunny color palette Raid or die endgame item based pvp - suuuuure
WAR Dark and gritty PVE AND PVP skill/character based no stupid dance emotes
the only similarities i see are: Green Orcs both games are mmorpgs
Originally posted by Teebal OK.... A few things i want to say, one being that YOU ALL NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SPELL. The spelling and grammer on this thread is horrible. (and thats not including the Acronyms like MMO , which is suppose to be spelt mmoRPG!!!!).
Another thing is that i think youve all forgotten about Dungons and Dragons. Games Workshops' Warhammer world and mosters are directly related and based off D&D. The D&D Orcs were very different to Tolkien's Orcs being that D&D orcs are Huge and Tough and won by sheer might, much unlike Tolkien's Little and shrimpy orcs that were made to win with pure outnumbering. So although the idea of orcs may have only been in D&D because they were used from Tolkein's writing's. Games Workshop was not copying Tolkien they were copying Dungeons and Dragons.
So it is unfair to say that Blizzard was copying the orcs from Warhammer where Warhammer Orcs were already copied, making it unfair to say that either game is copying the other for they are both already getting outside sources not relating to Blizzard or Gamesworkshop.
- You Can't Tell the difference between Red and Blue if all you can see is Yellow.
Check your own spelling and grammar before you criticize everyone elses, it just makes you look like a dumbass.
After the way Mythic has mishandled and ruined DAoC, I have no faith in that company. I'll be staying away from WAR
Originally posted by Chilvarez Meh, leave grammar behind, WAR cant match WoW, no matter how good it is, I even mean if it's the best game ever made EVER! the sheer fan base behind WoW is staggering! Leave WAR for the plastic fanactics and join WOW, my priest will whoop u're ass (if not i'll bring my shammy out again :P)
"Point 3: I believe the two games will appeal to completely different players, which is a very good thing imo. I believe that W.A.R. will attract a more mature and stronger overall community than warcraft. Warcraft is riddled with wanna be leet kiddies and their bastardized form of leetspeak that went out of style before they were even done drinking from sippy cups."
Well spoken. Also, I'd like to add that the editor of this thread had some great statements. And to anyone who felt he was out of order EG:The ones who mentioned the comparisons etc. You are wrong. This was an opinonated artical. He had every right to state such opinions. Furthermore, if anyone of you created games before you would know that there isnt a large basis of charecter design for orcs etc. So to make them apear any diferently from "Said" games is no easy task. I play wow. I like wow... Its to teh point where I have pretty much nothign to do. The pvp engion is pretty weak and Ive achieved all the gear id ever want or need. Having made 3 toons allready I would much not like to make another and do all those quests again... Fact is. Liking wow as much as I do, does not change the fact that there is a new mmo coming out, based off of a sweet tabletop game. And being that Ive played any mmo you can name. I can tell you all that eventually, you want something new.
I vote we make Severius a writer, not only were his/her opinions well thought out but his/her knowledge and reading entertainment values were right up there, i'd rather read him/her any day. Thanks Sev for a balanced, informative and educational read.
The article by Mr. Fuller tries to be objective and non-confrontational. It fails though, because you can never avoid comparisons between Warhammer and Warcraft systems and similarities between the two. Most of my friends and me included started playing Warcraft 1 because it was totally Warhammerous! Green Orcs vs. people (Empire) conflict game was so blatantly similar to Warhammer i wonder why didnt Games Workshop sue Blizzard for copyrights breach. Green Orcs, dwarfs and elves design that is so popular right now comes from Warhammer's artwork. Before that there were Tolkienian orc templates which looked like old hags or mutilated humans rather then green mean killing machines with big fangs.
It's no secret lorewise, Warcraft as WHOLE serie, plus Starcraft too are heavily basing off of warhammer lore.
but yes, we wont see another WoW ever, unless Blizzard makes WoW2...it's just because of the fact that the brand is so strong that you could have 10 million people buy bucket full of poo if the bucket would have warcraft label on it.
Comments
a couple things about the article. garrett, i think your readers would have been well served if you had made it clearer that Blizzard (the original studio in SoCal) responsible for warcraft/starcrat and Blizzard North, who created Diablo were basically 2 seperate teams. Diablo developed almost 100% by Condor Games, and Blizzard bought out the company in 1996, in order to release Diablo and converted Condor to Blizzard North. The people working at Blizzard now basically had nothing to do with Diablo
As other posters have stated. the stuff that Blizzard actually put out... WC series and Starcraft... are almost entirely based on Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. Of course the gameplay is heavily indebted to Dune (as are all RTS) but the structure of both these games are basically PC ports of Games Workshop products. Anyone at all familiar with warhammer can recognize the similarities, starting with the particular similarities of the factions/races upon which both games are built (zerg, protoss, green-skinned war-bent orcs). but even more damning is plagurism down to the PECULARITIES of the warhammer universe. there's very very few fantasy realms set in germanic steam-tech universes for example (steam tanks etc) and the whole fantasy mixed with cosmic origins backstory of the warcraft universe is directly from Warhammer... down to the idea of "Titans" or immortals seeding planets in the universe with life and planar rifts that bring evil onto the planet etc. across the board, if you consider the RTS races and units and the Lore of the game you can almost 100% find an analogue that inspired it from warhammer
garrett is also remiss in not emphasizing that Mythic Entertainment, and not Goblin Workshop will be primarily driving this game. in fact this is the 2nd studio in the past 2-3 years that GW has given the Warhammer MMPOG license to. given the heavy "borrowing" of blizzard from GW, it's perhaps a twist of karma that Mythic is developing this game. of course, Mythic is most famous for Dark Age of Camelot and is also famous for the insistence of Mythic's founder and CEO, Mark Jacobs, of "following the market leader" for its games. In short, Mark Jacobs has unabashedly and happily copied whatever games were MOST successful at the time in developing his game. He's was upfront after the release of DAOC that it was made with an eye on adapting the mechanics of Everquest (the market leader at the time). Similarly, Mark blankly stated that their next game "Imperator" was to be a copy and competitor of Star Wars Galaxies (which was expected at the time to be the "next big thing"). when SWG bombed, Mythic promptly canceled development on Imperator and moved resources to its next flagship game: warhammer. In short, considering the enormous success of WOW expect Warhammer to be a faithful rendition of that game. If you see the screens, it seems as much indebted to the light, Disney palate of WOW than the dark world that is warhammer. Likewise, expect the game mechanics to reflect the simplicty and balance of WOW, as much as Warhammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... it can only mean that both fans of WOW and Warhammer will give the game a try
so, as warcraft borrowed from warhammer, in the online incarnation at least, the circle will be complete.
mythic is a great company actually in what they do. i expect a huge success for warhammer online
The spelling and grammer on this thread is horrible. (and thats not including the Acronyms like MMO , which is suppose to be spelt mmoRPG!!!!).
Another thing is that i think youve all forgotten about Dungons and Dragons. Games Workshops' Warhammer world and mosters are directly related and based off D&D. The D&D Orcs were very different to Tolkien's Orcs being that D&D orcs are Huge and Tough and won by sheer might, much unlike Tolkien's Little and shrimpy orcs that were made to win with pure outnumbering. So although the idea of orcs may have only been in D&D because they were used from Tolkein's writing's.
Games Workshop was not copying Tolkien they were copying Dungeons and Dragons.
So it is unfair to say that Blizzard was copying the orcs from Warhammer where Warhammer Orcs were already copied, making it unfair to say that either game is copying the other for they are both already getting outside sources not relating to Blizzard or Gamesworkshop.
- You Can't Tell the difference between Red and Blue if all you can see is Yellow.
The majority of people posting here know what there talking about and have explained themselves well, those who do not seem to have been the one's that have flamed.
Now before my opinion on the matter at hand WoW to WAR, I'd like to go back a little further first to 1917 were a man called John Ronald Reuel Tolkien startd to build his own world: Middle Earth, He dies in 1973, "The Silmarallion" is relised in 1977 and "The history's of Middle Earth" 12 volumes in total are relised there after. In this time, (Back to 1971) D&D has been realised, baised on "The Hobbit" and the 3 "Lord of the Rings" books, this is a game for people who wished to realy be in the world of middle earth, this developed in its own way as time progressed onward, as a pen and paper game.
In 1983 a board game is realised called "Warhammer" were our aritcal auther explanes in a vage detail about what it is, to compaire a table top game to a Pen and paper game is unfair, but people still do it, Warhammer when it is realised gives its own image to the orcs, goblins, Elves and dwarves that enhabbit its world. The Original Elves of Warhammer had aline like eyes, that were fully black thin and crunning, they made there orcs and goblins green taking away the grey colours of the tolkin world, there female dwarves did not have beards as in the D&D and tolkin worlds.
For all to see it was based on these things turning its self in to a full table top game, it was unique and at the same time a copy of what had been before,
The Company as it is today have finalised what everything should look like, act like and respond to other races in the world, it has pushed its self away from the LotR and D&D worlds and forged its own,
Over the yearsit has realised many computer games: as some one way back asked "What succsessful PC Warhammer titels have been realise?" <or somthing like that I'm tired and not going back to find the exact quote>
Try: Shadow Of The Horned Rat, without this game you would not have the total war serise. SotHR was relised 11/30/95 Shougan 06/13/00, sure it is a lot better, but thats to be expected, the point of it is though that the warhammer game was the first and showed a new game style that could be done.
Try: Fire Warrior, suree nothing oper special but a big hit on the Playstation, if it wasnt I don't think they would be putting a sequil together.
Try: Dawn of War, Game of the Year 2004. need I say more?
Moving on, Blizzard as it stands look like they heavly pulled from the Warhammer world, as some one before said, probably a fantasy fan that had warhammer as his favourt game, there are suttle hints in WC3 to the fan too, the dwarf riding the gryphon quotes "Du ya like ma Warhammer? it cost 40K, 40K da ya get it?" - Erm yeah we ALL get it, those who have $2 to us,
As more and more people become aware of the game WAR, they see green orcs, battling dwarves and so on, the "kiddy" generation of WoW players that know almost nothing of Warhammer or Warcraft are going to see it as a WoW clone, this in some ways I can say will be true, WoW is older than WAR so its going to be compared, but going full ways back Warcraft is just a copy or Warhammer, not a carbon copy but a copy set down non the less and from Warhamer, Middle Earth before that.
For those who have followed this game from it being a table top based MMO, to the Warhammer Online (climax) version, to its death to the resurection with Warhammer Age of Reckogning, we await this game with baited breath, the team working on this game grows rapidly and we await this mother of MMO's with baited breath,
I'm not saying I'll cancel my WoW subscription on the day WAR is realised, but if it lives up to what every single MMO player is hoping it to be it will cause a stir in the market, and pull in huge numbers of players.
Hope you have taken the time to rad my comments and understand what I've tried to say, I wanted to basicly add a little to what I thinkt he auther ment, and respond to some of the stupid posts of people flaming a game that isnt even out.
Die Noctique, By Day and Night
Visulas matter a lot...and EQ2s visuals sucked...
Also Starcraft was a direct Rip of war40k and from what i have heard part of the reason ghost got cut is cause of lawsuits with games workshop
BTW Silhouette83 your poll up there asks 2 questions that are oposites and then gives yes or no answers...yes/no to what question?
As to the main question of this Topic...I feel any company that enters the genre of fantasy is butting heads with any other mmo in the same genre. With WoW as the leading fantasy champion and War as the most looked forward to newcommer of course they will butt heads and they should be compared...you said yourself eventually you will only have an account with one, as will most everyone else. One of these companys will come out on top in the fantasy genre and to be honest my money is on Blizz, nodoubt people will drift over to War to try it out but I forsee a lot of them drifting back.
Part of WoWs lead is because it is so carebear friendly, and a lot of its players it has dragged in from outside the mmo market. These are not players who will enjoy a RvR in my opinion...these are players who enjoy getting that next item from an instance and fighting against NPCs that they know will react this or that way. Its true that WoWs BGs will empty of a lot of the more hardcore PvP players but WoW is already taking the steps to have cross realm BGs that will more then make up for the lack.
My personal feelings are that GW should have tried to pick up the slack from SWG and PS's decline. Now is the time for a new Sci Fi game to step up and gather together the lost and hudled masses of players that are feeling abandoned by SoE. And to be quite honest Auto Assault doenst make the cut. A war40k mmo could have done so well right now, but it looks like TR is gonna steal the show.
Meanwhile WoW and War are gonna dump money into thier compeating projects untill one of them has to cut their losses. (another reason I believe ghost was cut, they need all hands on their flagship) Well see who wins the fight...but make no mistake their will be a fight for players between the two.
Disclaimer: I have little or no basis for my opinions exept how I feel the mmo market is at this time. They are just my opinions
I will like to point out some things.
Excluding anchient myphology. Orcs first appered in Lord of the rings as did goblins. They were then fleshed out in the origonal Dungeons and dragons game.
Then warhammer came out and it was then that orcs turned green causing an uproar among traditional RPG'ers.
Then in 1994 Warcraft came out the rest is history.
I agree that WoW took a lot from other games and books but in the end they did make a solid game. Of course i played it once and didnt like it but that isant the issue here the issue is that YES wow did copy of warhammer but then again warhammer coppied of Lord of the rings and Dungeons and dragons.
It's an interesting thread, however there is a focus that i would like to redirect. simply put, i think comparing the 2 games is easy to get lost into, but to compare the companies ability is something i consider far more valueable. As far as anticipating the play value of this game i can say its an iffy one. world of warcraft is a big contender with the famed blizzard name backing it, in addition blizzard creates its games on a simple foundation, then goes from there.
know that i admit, i dont know a lot about warhammer other than seeing a HUGE potential for an mmorpg. i have played warhammer: dawn of war, and fell in love with it. the company that created warhammer tends to do its own thing, which is good an bad of course. the good can be found (in my opinion) in warhammer: dawn of war. the recource system was like that of no other rts that ive ever played, it led to a faster game play as opposed to the classic 5 minutes of building recources. then we examine the bad, the internet play of this game lacked any real respect for its players. long wait times, non-simplistic methods of getting a game together, and possibly the worst of all has to be game spy. with mythics aid in this problem of online play should be fixed.
blizzard however, has a way of taking everything that thier games have to offer, stripping it of everything save for the essentials and creating a game play that is fun and has a sort of novilty to it. this is apparent in the warcraft series, IE wc3. in warcraft 3 the player is left to search through mainly unite combos, creep innovations, and base build design/order. its like this because of the simplicity, lets use tier 1 for example. every race starts with 1 melee unit, 1 ranged unit (exception is NE with first tier siege to compisate for thier melee's vulnerability to ranged attacks, think towers.), upgrades are 1 of 4 to upgrade the attack and defensive power of units. of course while the simplicity of this has its benefits, it sustains less of an interesting play time. this too is apparent in the seemingly reduntant world of warcraft (i have a 60 dwarf on shadow moon by the name of killrogin. ive been to AQ40 downed 3rd boss)
the companies design style is different, however 1 is more reliable than the other. the 2 things that, in my opinion, will make or break warhammer online will be the vast availability/rewards of pvp as well as the speed and skill level involved in pvp, and secondly the difference in the look of warhammer to warcraft. warcraft is cartoony, which MANY people dislike. it gives it an unrealistic feel of the game, a sense of censorship, and a less rewarding, exilerating fight in raids. however, if mythic makes the game give a sense of adult like combat, fantasy, and gameplay it would have a big advantage over world of warcraft.
i end saying this, i personally, am tired of world of warcrack. at this point its mundain, repetative, and simply irritating to play. i have heard this phrase to discribe it perfectly, the way i feel about wow,"its not a great game, there simply isnt anything out there thats better."
You can almost forget that Warhammer came from Tolkien and D&D because it's become iconic, you can't really say the same for Warcraft. I don't think many people who know both can look at Warcraft and not think of Warhammer.
Blizzard on the other hand really don't seem to have a original bone in their bodies, so they turned Goblins from drug users into business men. Wow, that must have taken all of 10 mins.
It doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing their games though, I love The Seven Samurai but that doesn't mean I can't love The Magnificent Seven just as much.
Well, let's think. What great computer games have been based on Warhammer?
Hm, how about Warcraft: Orcs and Humans?
I know we've covered this ground already, but I can't help but feel it's so misleading to see the two sentences I quoted above placed side by side.
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Lend a hand and break the chains of regularity you lean so closely upon
Dip me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians
Much like the rise and fall of Rome SWG was a great and beautiful Empire only to be completely corrupted and ruined by greedy men (SOE)
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Lets see
WOW
Easter-bunny color palette
Raid or die endgame
item based
pvp - suuuuure
WAR
Dark and gritty
PVE AND PVP
skill/character based
no stupid dance emotes
the only similarities i see are:
Green Orcs
both games are mmorpgs
Check your own spelling and grammar before you criticize everyone elses, it just makes you look like a dumbass.
After the way Mythic has mishandled and ruined DAoC, I have no faith in that company. I'll be staying away from WAR
http://www.TheGamersAssociation.com
"Point 3: I believe the two games will appeal to completely different players, which is a very good thing imo. I believe that W.A.R. will attract a more mature and stronger overall community than warcraft. Warcraft is riddled with wanna be leet kiddies and their bastardized form of leetspeak that went out of style before they were even done drinking from sippy cups."
Well spoken. Also, I'd like to add that the editor of this thread had some great statements. And to anyone who felt he was out of order EG:The ones who mentioned the comparisons etc. You are wrong. This was an opinonated artical. He had every right to state such opinions. Furthermore, if anyone of you created games before you would know that there isnt a large basis of charecter design for orcs etc. So to make them apear any diferently from "Said" games is no easy task. I play wow. I like wow... Its to teh point where I have pretty much nothign to do. The pvp engion is pretty weak and Ive achieved all the gear id ever want or need. Having made 3 toons allready I would much not like to make another and do all those quests again... Fact is. Liking wow as much as I do, does not change the fact that there is a new mmo coming out, based off of a sweet tabletop game. And being that Ive played any mmo you can name. I can tell you all that eventually, you want something new.
Anyway Kudos to the artical and its editor. GJ.
Most of my friends and me included started playing Warcraft 1 because it was totally Warhammerous! Green Orcs vs. people (Empire) conflict game was so blatantly similar to Warhammer i wonder why didnt Games Workshop sue Blizzard for copyrights breach. Green Orcs, dwarfs and elves design that is so popular right now comes from Warhammer's artwork. Before that there were Tolkienian orc templates which looked like old hags or mutilated humans rather then green mean killing machines with big fangs.
but yes, we wont see another WoW ever, unless Blizzard makes WoW2...it's just because of the fact that the brand is so strong that you could have 10 million people buy bucket full of poo if the bucket would have warcraft label on it.