Should PvP focused MMOs completely remove the grind?

TheScavenger · September 2016

I think this is a huge barrier to entry for PvP focused MMOs (which are most sandbox MMOs). This came up in my, are MMOs to open/big thread, but wasn't talked about much.

Take LoL or any FPS game...there is no grind, except maybe to unlock some weapons/heroes/skins...but everyone is on even ground. You hop on and can do what anyone else can. You don't have to spend 100s or (like in EVE) thousands of hours to be able to PvP. You just hop on, PvP and have a ton of fun.

The only MMO that is like this, is Planetside. But the state of SOE is pretty iffy, especially being bought out by an investment company, so not many people want to play their games when its owned by an investment company. But, it is the closest example with what I'm talking about.

Again like I said in my other thread, if EVE 100% removed all the grind, and just had unlocks/skins or whatever...it would be FAR more of a success. This would be true for many PvP focused MMOs. Very few people want to PvP, but be forced to grind in PvE for 100s or thousands of hours to...PvP.

Take a look at GW2, as a good example of it being done right in a themepark MMO. In GW2 you can PvP any time, any level...your character gets boosted and you are just as good at PvP as anyone else. Of course, they made some mistakes and seem to not know where to go with GW2 that drove away the PvP community...but that is Arenanet's fault, not because of PvP mechanics. GW2 PvP was hugely successful because there was no grind to be able to PvP. I mean, really...what hardcore PvPer wants to be forced to PvE to do PvP?

I think this is where a lot of PvP sandbox MMOs fail and why so many sandbox PvP MMOs die a quick death. They focus so much on the grind, when they really should focus on PvP and let everyone be able to PvP without doing any grinding/crafting/PvE. GW2 let everyone PvP, and it was hugely successful until Arenanet messed up GW2

Phaserlight · September 2016

I think it's an issue of finding a balance between "progression" which is something that keeps players coming back for more and having a level playing field in PvP.

I'm sure this is a topic that has been discussed ad infinitum at games conferences and in schools around the globe. I also believe there are more games than just Planetside that are pretty close to what you are describing.

waynejr2 · September 2016

TheScavenger said:

I think this is a huge barrier to entry for PvP focused MMOs (which are most sandbox MMOs). This came up in my, are MMOs to open/big thread, but wasn't talked about much.

Take LoL or any FPS game...there is no grind, except maybe to unlock some weapons/heroes/skins...but everyone is on even ground. You hop on and can do what anyone else can. You don't have to spend 100s or (like in EVE) thousands of hours to be able to PvP. You just hop on, PvP and have a ton of fun.

The only MMO that is like this, is Planetside. But the state of SOE is pretty iffy, especially being bought out by an investment company, so not many people want to play their games when its owned by an investment company. But, it is the closest example with what I'm talking about.

Again like I said in my other thread, if EVE 100% removed all the grind, and just had unlocks/skins or whatever...it would be FAR more of a success. This would be true for many PvP focused MMOs. Very few people want to PvP, but be forced to grind in PvE for 100s or thousands of hours to...PvP.

Take a look at GW2, as a good example of it being done right in a themepark MMO. In GW2 you can PvP any time, any level...your character gets boosted and you are just as good at PvP as anyone else. Of course, they made some mistakes and seem to not know where to go with GW2 that drove away the PvP community...but that is Arenanet's fault, not because of PvP mechanics. GW2 PvP was hugely successful because there was no grind to be able to PvP. I mean, really...what hardcore PvPer wants to be forced to PvE to do PvP?

I think this is where a lot of PvP sandbox MMOs fail and why so many sandbox PvP MMOs die a quick death. They focus so much on the grind, when they really should focus on PvP and let everyone be able to PvP without doing any grinding/crafting/PvE. GW2 let everyone PvP, and it was hugely successful until Arenanet messed up GW2

Hey as long as the money is pouring into the game company from the players supporting your idea, why wouldn't they make it a lazy system?

Vermillion_Raventhal · September 2016

I think all MMORPG should remove grinds. It's a crutch this genre relies on but I really think holds its back. Grinding boring gameplay for rewards probably isn't something the average gamer really wants to do.

LynxJSA · September 2016

Remove a PvE barrier from the PvP gameplay? Yes. Remove PvE? No.

TheScavenger · September 2016

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think all MMORPG should remove grinds. It's a crutch this genre relies on but I really think holds its back. Grinding boring gameplay for rewards probably isn't something the average gamer really wants to do.

Well, that I agree with. GW2 removed a lot of the grind, but it was still very grindy for an MMO. Most singleplayer games don't have a grind at all, or barely one. Elder Scrolls (not the dumb ESO version) you still can grind, but you can still do any quest and go anywhere you want without grinding. Some stuff may be harder, but there is never a grind in an Elder Scrolls game. Except ESO is one huge grind, but Todd said ESO isn't canon at all so it isn't a real ES game, its a fake ES that has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls.

Anyway before I rant about ESO and get off topic there...that does bring up a good point even for themeparks/PvE focused MMOs.

Like a great example is Ryzom. Ryzom has the worst grind of any game I've ever played...and Ryzom is also completely dead. On the other hand, WoW is pretty grindy (but not nearly as much as other MMOs) and its also incredibly success.

The less grindy the MMO, the more successful I notice they tend to be. Of course, there are other factors to consider as well and sometimes a grindy MMO is successful (like FFXIV). But singleplayer games tend to do way better and they tend to have very little to no grind.

Mendel · September 2016

How do you distinguish your idea from a MOBA, @TheScavenger? There's no real progression which is one of the core feature of an MMORPG, at least, not that I can see. Everyone is max level, and there's little distinction in gear. So, how would you make players' characters different from one another?

Krizzd · September 2016

First thread .......the mmo's have huge worlds thats why they die,they must be tiny places
Second thread ....(the one we are now).....mmo's have grind thats why they die they must have not proggresion
Third thread.....(probably tommorow).....mmo's have too many skills to use thats why they die, i think they should have 3 skills and one ulltimate.
Feel free to imagine the 4th thread ty.

Vesavius · September 2016

PvP MMORPGs with no grind is a redundant idea. Just go play a MOBA or whatever.

SEANMCAD · September 2016

I am not a pvp player so my answer comes with a grain of salt as big as a lake. but...

I think this game on a design side is getting it right
http://store.steampowered.com/app/327090/

items you craft and make really are not that hard to make again. A play session really inst heavily burdened with PvE activities but there are PvE activities to be had.

goboygo · September 2016

Dude what is it with the flood of illogical posts lately. Your posts literally contradict themselves at the core.

I'm waiting for you to make a post asking if the sky is too blue or if water is too wet.

nariusseldon · September 2016

Vesavius said:

PvP MMORPGs with no grind is a redundant idea. Just go play a MOBA or whatever.

He said MMO, not MMORPGs.

Plenty of pvp MMOs have no level grind .. like World of Tanks.

nennafir · September 2016

Phaserlight said:

I think it's an issue of finding a balance between "progression" which is something that keeps players coming back for more and having a level playing field in PvP.

I'm sure this is a topic that has been discussed ad infinitum at games conferences and in schools around the globe. I also believe there are more games than just Planetside that are pretty close to what you are describing.

MMO players don't want fairness. They want to level 26+ hours a day with their no-job no-life existence and trump the other guy. So--no--you want a levelling curve.

I like MMOs but it is increasingly evident that the player base does not want fairness. If they wanted things to be fair, they would be playing a MOBA...

SirBalin · September 2016

TheScavenger said:

I think this is a huge barrier to entry for PvP focused MMOs (which are most sandbox MMOs). This came up in my, are MMOs to open/big thread, but wasn't talked about much.

Take LoL or any FPS game...there is no grind, except maybe to unlock some weapons/heroes/skins...but everyone is on even ground. You hop on and can do what anyone else can. You don't have to spend 100s or (like in EVE) thousands of hours to be able to PvP. You just hop on, PvP and have a ton of fun.

The only MMO that is like this, is Planetside. But the state of SOE is pretty iffy, especially being bought out by an investment company, so not many people want to play their games when its owned by an investment company. But, it is the closest example with what I'm talking about.

Again like I said in my other thread, if EVE 100% removed all the grind, and just had unlocks/skins or whatever...it would be FAR more of a success. This would be true for many PvP focused MMOs. Very few people want to PvP, but be forced to grind in PvE for 100s or thousands of hours to...PvP.

Take a look at GW2, as a good example of it being done right in a themepark MMO. In GW2 you can PvP any time, any level...your character gets boosted and you are just as good at PvP as anyone else. Of course, they made some mistakes and seem to not know where to go with GW2 that drove away the PvP community...but that is Arenanet's fault, not because of PvP mechanics. GW2 PvP was hugely successful because there was no grind to be able to PvP. I mean, really...what hardcore PvPer wants to be forced to PvE to do PvP?

I think this is where a lot of PvP sandbox MMOs fail and why so many sandbox PvP MMOs die a quick death. They focus so much on the grind, when they really should focus on PvP and let everyone be able to PvP without doing any grinding/crafting/PvE. GW2 let everyone PvP, and it was hugely successful until Arenanet messed up GW2

Here's the thing, you can remove the grind...but you need a reason to be in the open world for a pvp sandbox. For darkfall it was full loot and enchants, so you needed to be in the open world for that, some games it's for skill points...so...you just need a reason to be in the open world, and no fast travel, etc

Deivos · September 2016

I'd simply reference Planetside for the most part on how to handle progression in a PvP-focused environment.

Theocritus · September 2016

I really dont like games where I log in and Im maxxed in everything and all I have left to do is just fight.....Thats not really much of a game.

FrodoFragins · September 2016

A PVP focused MMO does not need long story based level grinds that's for sure. It does need some sort of grind other than just endless battles though. I think making the rewards cosmetic is best.

The problem is how do you take the fun of shooters/MOBAs and scale them to 50v50 and not just make it a zerg (GW2 certainly didn't figure it out and they had huge maps to work with). I never played DAOC so I don't really know how they implemented things that so many players apparently loved.

iixviiiix · September 2016

Do you understand what MMO and RPG mean ? OP

Aeander · September 2016

iixviiiix said:

Do you understand what MMO and RPG mean ? OP

Do you? It seems to me that neither of you do.

Renoaku · September 2016

The problem with PVP is Pay 2 Win, Pay 2 Advance Faster ,or Gear based PVP...

Gear Based progression is fine for PVE, however PVP gear should have no effect, and everyone should have the same stats, which therefore makes the entire game skill based rather than Pay 2 Win, its also possible to take the MOBA Approach, and add a Item system into the game which allows players to buy items for the duration of a arena match in games like MOBA after earning points and such but strictly pvp only systems.

Skyforge is an example doing this in Battle OF Equals hopefully new games follow.

MMOExposed · September 2016

There are many ways to keep progression while getting rid of boring grind. It's a creative process. But most developers are very conservative with the game development. So we get the same old same old.

Yalexy · September 2016

There shouldn't be any character-progression in the form of skill-lvels or anything like that. Simply create your character and start playing.

Next in the list would be the actual gear. The power-disparity between the starter-gear and the best one you can craft should only be some 10% (common = 100%, rare = 105%, epic 110%).

The game should 100% revolve around ressources needed for crafting, be it through PvE or PvP. And that would be the actual grind left in the game, gathering ressources.

deniter · September 2016

If you combine PvE and PvP in the same game there should always be a grind. You grind PvE in order to get better in PvP. If you allow players to progress via PvP only, you can pretty much design a MOBA or FPS game and forget PvE and rpg.

This also means PvP has to have some role in a game other than zerging other players in sight. Having PvP for a sake of having PvP won't work in this genre, while it's a standard feature in MOBAs and FPS's. Most games out there only combine a MOBA with a standard single player rpg with storytelling and quests and call it a mmorpg, when it's really isn't that.

What is still missing in this genre, is real reason to have PvP. If you spend hours and hours to gear up and level up in order to improve your PvP power, controlling nodes or capturing flags isn't exactly what makes the gameplay worthwhile to me. Giving buffs for winning PvP is what some games do - fine, but now you PvE to prevail in PvP, so your PvE becomes easier. That's not good enough either.

nariusseldon · September 2016

MMOExposed said:

There are many ways to keep progression while getting rid of boring grind. It's a creative process. But most developers are very conservative with the game development. So we get the same old same old.

Not really. You can always have cosmetic progression like that in Overwatch.

Deivos · September 2016

nariusseldon said:

MMOExposed said:

There are many ways to keep progression while getting rid of boring grind. It's a creative process. But most developers are very conservative with the game development. So we get the same old same old.

Not really. You can always have cosmetic progression like that in Overwatch.

...Why'd you say "not really" and then reaffirm what MMOExposed said?

LucienRene · September 2016

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I think all MMORPG should remove grinds. It's a crutch this genre relies on but I really think holds its back. Grinding boring gameplay for rewards probably isn't something the average gamer really wants to do.

I agree. Remove "grind." This doesn't mean remove interesting content, or progression, or anything of the sort. It means remove the "padding" added to the game play for the sole purpose of increasing "time in game."

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