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Are PvP focused MMORPGs the reason they die?
TheScavenger
Member EpicPosts: 3,321
Every time there is a PvP focused MMORPG (not MMO, but MMORPG) it dies a quick, swift death. The only successful one is EVE, and that is because it offers TONS of PvE AND many safe areas.
But there are many that fail. Ultima Online was losing players fast because of the PvPers, it recovered once they implemented a PVE area (like EVE) but it got old and outdated (but still alive today). Dark and Light crashed and burned. Archeage crashed and burned.
Black Desert Online did okay until it went pay to win and bots took over, but it offers tons of PvP and before the cash shop and all the bots took over...it had a ton of players and most just wanted to PvE. There was a substantial amount of posts even for a PVE only server.
Dark Fall Online was incredibly niche, why? Because very limited PvE content.
Now, there is definitely nothing wrong with PvP if there is no grind and everyone is on an even playscale (like I kinda said in my other thread). However, all the successful PvP MMORPGS (SWG, EVE, sorta BDO) are all played heavily in the PVE area.
Which a great example is SWG...it offered TONS of PVE, the best PVE MMORPG to ever come out and none have yet to replace it. However it also offered optional PvP for those that liked that and it offered some of the best PvP available.
would sandbox MMORPGS (again MMORPGS, not MMOs like planetside or leagues of legends) be a far more success if they either made PvP optional (like SWG) or like EVE and BDO, offered a TON of PVE content AND safe areas to go to? Because its pretty accurate that the sandbox PvP crowd is very niche compared to the amount who PvE in the same areas.
And by PVE, I mean in depth crafting, in-depth housing system (if available), in-depth pet system (like SWG) and a storyline with missions to follow (like EVE)
It does seem like every sandbox PvP MMORPG that fails focuses far too much on the PvP, and not enough on the PVE. Yet, like I said in my last thread, the same MMOs it takes 100s of hours if not more in these same MMORPGS
Which the amount to grind, only rewards gankers and those who can play non-stop OR have played longer. And it is the gankers that actually ruin their own MMORPG. Which EVE does get around that in the PVE area by offering high security, which wards off a lot of gankers (but not all, but enough to make the game completely playable).
But there are many that fail. Ultima Online was losing players fast because of the PvPers, it recovered once they implemented a PVE area (like EVE) but it got old and outdated (but still alive today). Dark and Light crashed and burned. Archeage crashed and burned.
Black Desert Online did okay until it went pay to win and bots took over, but it offers tons of PvP and before the cash shop and all the bots took over...it had a ton of players and most just wanted to PvE. There was a substantial amount of posts even for a PVE only server.
Dark Fall Online was incredibly niche, why? Because very limited PvE content.
Now, there is definitely nothing wrong with PvP if there is no grind and everyone is on an even playscale (like I kinda said in my other thread). However, all the successful PvP MMORPGS (SWG, EVE, sorta BDO) are all played heavily in the PVE area.
Which a great example is SWG...it offered TONS of PVE, the best PVE MMORPG to ever come out and none have yet to replace it. However it also offered optional PvP for those that liked that and it offered some of the best PvP available.
would sandbox MMORPGS (again MMORPGS, not MMOs like planetside or leagues of legends) be a far more success if they either made PvP optional (like SWG) or like EVE and BDO, offered a TON of PVE content AND safe areas to go to? Because its pretty accurate that the sandbox PvP crowd is very niche compared to the amount who PvE in the same areas.
And by PVE, I mean in depth crafting, in-depth housing system (if available), in-depth pet system (like SWG) and a storyline with missions to follow (like EVE)
It does seem like every sandbox PvP MMORPG that fails focuses far too much on the PvP, and not enough on the PVE. Yet, like I said in my last thread, the same MMOs it takes 100s of hours if not more in these same MMORPGS
Which the amount to grind, only rewards gankers and those who can play non-stop OR have played longer. And it is the gankers that actually ruin their own MMORPG. Which EVE does get around that in the PVE area by offering high security, which wards off a lot of gankers (but not all, but enough to make the game completely playable).
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Comments
More PvE games have failed than PvP games. The Reason PvP games do fail from what I have seen and experienced is the fact they almost always have these indie companies that cant deliver on what they say they have or cant handle the load once they get the game going. Gamers in general are very unforgiving and its very rare to see games get second chances(FF14 is a very very rare case) So once that buggy launch hits then its bye bye from then on. The same issues plague pve games though.
But anyways thats not the point, yea pvp focused mmorpgs are bound to flop imo. You need depth in the game, you need to make the world in the game feel as alive as possible, that is what I think makes the mmo lasts long. The World should be the focus, PvP is only a contributor to the world so it should not be the focus.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
my 1 cent
Can't speak to Ultima Online but Dark and Light did not crash and burn because of pvp. Archeage did not crash and burn period.
Black Desert is my main game and it doesn't feel at all like bots took over at this point. Dark Fall did have limited content, true but have you actually played it? Issues, the company supporting it wasn't great.
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I agree that PvP centric MMORPGs never last. The main reasons (in my opinion) that they don't last are:
1.) They single out PvErs and make their game play less fun.
2.) By making PvErs game play less fun. They limit the majority of an mmos player base.
3.) Gamers now a days have a limited attention span, especially PvPers. Your average gamer just doesn't stick with a game very long as is. When you add in being camped by some asshole for 20 minutes that longevity becomes even shorter.
4.) A purely PvP game always, without exception, has a horrible community.
You're also correct about UO. Without Trammel the lights probably would have been shut off a long time ago. I can’t speak for Dark Fall. However, everything else in your post is simply rubbish. Dark and Light going down in flames had nothing to do with PvP. The rest of those games are doing fine in their own right.
They tend to primarily focus on open world free for all PvP. This form of pvp, which tends to come down to ganking, creates a self-cannibalizing community. It is innately toxic, and comes at the cost of longevity in most games. It is generally better replaced by a dueling system with agreed-upon looting rules.
The alternative, which is recently becoming more and more prevalent is instanced esports PvP. This creates more healthy competition, puts everyone on an equivalent playing field, and is purely consensual. For players hoping for a better PvE experience, this is a better type of PvP to have available. However, it also lacks scale and freedom.
Unfortunately, the two best forms of pvp to focus on in an MMO are also the least common and most difficult to adequately design. These are Guild Sieges and Realm vs. Realm. These pvp forms foster a greater pvp community and present a sense of scale not found in other pvp games. The weakness of these forms is that balancing massive armies against small strike teams is difficult and most games are biased in favor of the former. The death of well-designed faction pvp is the death of MMO PvP in general.
The reason that EVE has lasted so long as an open world "FFA" PVP game is due to three factors.
- The odds are skewed towards people who don't want to fight. That's right, there's only 3-4 ways to force someone to PVP and about 15 ways to avoid a fight. Any smart player using any 2-3 methods of avoidance at once, probably won't lose a ship non-consensually in months.
- There are consequences to killing someone in policed empires. The aggressor will very quickly lose their ship and everything on it. Just attacking your ship guarantees they will lose their ship. Don't make yourself an easy, squishy target, and people won't attack you.
- EVE is a game of social interactions. It's more of an MMO than any other MMO on the market. It's not hyperbole, it's a fact. If you have no friends in EVE, you will die repeatedly. If you have hundreds of friends in EVE and you carve out a sector of your own space and fly together, you will not die repeatedly unless you're playing badly on purpose.
What makes people flee from most PVP games, then, is that they don't offer the three above factors. PVP needs to non-consensual, but also challenging to engage in unless the other player wants to be engaged or is lazy and careless. There need to be consequence zones and consequence free zones and finally the game needs to have very good social and grouping tools so that players can band together effectively for protection.Most want a more team sport approach, opponents in the same number, gear, skill level, knowledge of the map, so that the key determiner is player "skill" little influenced by factors unknown or outside the player's control.
Also team sports occur at the player's convenience, while war usually comes with little warning and is always inconvenient.
So sure, open world PVP has less appeal, regardless of game quality I'm pretty sure no game with it will hold any great popularity over the long term, it's just not what most players want.
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As far as pvp games, there is a really limited ammount of people who can devote the time to get to the top the rest just get owned. that isn't fun, and its why kid baseball leagues have 200 6 year old players and about 20 left by the time they are 14.
Grind for reward is simply a cheap timesink that removes the need to have on going engaging content or dabble in the social experience between players. Instead people will pay you money to push a button for a treat like a hamster.
and thats why games DIE OUT FAST because these people complain its wayy to hard and take a long ass time to complete and compete, thats what mmorpgs are for it SHOULD TAKE TIME and EFFORT.
Look at WoW for example it became so easy that even if they release new content which took a year to make, someone already reached max level in less than 4 hours lol! wow is a great game but at the same time it became so easy because they catered to the western audience... MILLENNIALS LOL!
However, For all it's bugs SWG did do a very nice job of trying to balance things out and at the end of the day you could opt out of PvP and not lose out on anything. Not saying it was perfect but it had great ideas. Just piss poor management...bug hunters...etc.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
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you cannot compare an MMORPG to a MOBA, its setting and playstyle are all different so please just dont.
You can however compare an mmorpg to another mmorpg. of course Mobas would sacrifice open world because its doesnt have an open world its pure Arena pvp with some pve elements which is creep farming added to it but the main point of is is still PVP.
Keywords: MMORPG - Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (RPG- You roleplay anyway you want, as a hired killer? (Pvper) or as a Vagabond Merchant/Craftsman (Pver)
MOBA - Massive Online Battle Arena - (its pvp straight up "Arena")
MILL..what?
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