What was so complicated?

New_to_MMO · March 2006

Helios:

As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.

I don't get it?? I had never even heard of an MMORPG before a co-worker told me how excited he was about the new upcoming Star Wars game. I got it on release and logged in the second day (since day 1 was f'd up).

I dont' think it was too high of a learning curve to figure out that using a pistol gave you pistol xp and using a one handed sword gave you one handed sword xp.

Let's go Bioware!

DuraheLL · March 2006

I dunno what you make out of it when people say it's too complicated.

When I feel that feeling I only feel "Wow this is huge, will be fun to learn" not "omg I cannot start powerlevel at day one and know the end-game fully without even being there".

It simply had too many ways to go and many options. That it was delivered in a way which might seem caraless towards new players is a completely different thing. That is the developers responsibilities to make sure people feel "safe" and "secure" when starting a game.

I personaly say the old SWG tutorial was ... crap, it felt more like "find the answers yourself". Since they threw up the Holocron in your face even before you even felt you started any turorial at all.

Anyway you should do research on a game before buying, especially MMORPG's. If you bought SWG pre-CU and came in for a shock I must say you made one very dumb move.

kaibigan34 · March 2006

That was one thing I loved. The complexity of the game. All other games have a very short learning curve then I grow bored. But with Early SWG, I never really got bored until they started changing it.

The biggest problem was the manual. You could read that thing 10 times cover to cover and still be lost at times. They are blaming their incompetence with the manual on the game itself. If they had written a better manual it wouldnt have been so bad.

Plus having a higher learning curve meant people talked to each other as they taught the new players. Many of my friends came from just such a situation. New player joins game. Wants help on where to start. I then offer assistance and BOOM I just made a new friend in game.

At least they are finally admitting that the new system is over-simplified.

Kai

OSYYRUS · March 2006

That's one of the things I loved about the old system. It was so vast and flexible even after 2.5 years of playing you could learn something new about it you never realized before. You could spend time just hanging out playing with templates, trying to find the perfect one. The one that fit your playstyle and still had kick ass stats. "If I just drop this skill here, I could pick up this one and be able to do THIS too!" It was great. Yeah it was complicated, there is no other way it could have been and still been fun. This new profession system is the worst I've EVER seen in an MMO. I understand the need to simplify things, but the way they went about doing it.............my god.

I can see the Sony CEO sitting in his office in Japan, playing SWG NGE for the first time and saying "Holy Hari-Kari, I'm PAYING people to come up with this crap. Send swords to Austin...stat."

Clackamas · March 2006

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG [developer] vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.

Everyone keeps assuming that Helio's was talking about the players. I think Helios was talking about the DEV issues related to having enough talented people to maintain it. Certainly, Helios has arguably demonstrated a lack of interest if not inability to maintain this game.

LilT · March 2006

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.
I don't get it?? I had never even heard of an MMORPG before a co-worker told me how excited he was about the new upcoming Star Wars game. I got it on release and logged in the second day (since day 1 was f'd up).
I dont' think it was too high of a learning curve to figure out that using a pistol gave you pistol xp and using a one handed sword gave you one handed sword xp.
Let's go Bioware!

Imo the old swg system has a learning curve that was perfect for me and i consider myself of average intellegence lol. I, too, had never played an mmo, but i had no trouble logging in, seeing the skill trees, deciding what i wanted to do, and then reading the discriptions on how to do them. I didnt even have a manual since it wasnt my game to start with. I knew the basiscs of what i had to do and had fun doing them.

I didnt know about crafting and how to gather resources, or what all those stats meant and how to stack them effectively or which armor stats was best for me or what foods to buy. That was exactly the fun, as you switched professions you discoverd more about the game, no matter how long you played.

I dont know why anyone would want to have a simple game, like Wow where you can basically understand the entire game in the first week of play or less. In wow, its all the same, just more of the same as you level up.

LilT · March 2006

Originally posted by Clackamas

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG [developer] vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.

Everyone keeps assuming that Helio's was talking about the players. I think Helios was talking about the DEV issues related to having enough talented people to maintain it. Certainly, Helios has arguably demonstrated a lack of interest if not inability to maintain this game.

No, when you put it in context with nacy mcintires statements and others made by devs, its clear they mean the players.

Syri · March 2006

I think that the game itself was great, the skill based system and idea of "building your own class" worked really well. The main problem was getting going.
If they had the original, or at least post-CU, skill set and the NGE story line and tutorial, content, quests and such, they'd be on to a winner in my opinion...

Wakizashi · March 2006

For those of you who thought the game's curve was too steep, I dare you to try Eve Online. I played SWG in teh halcyon days and I didn't hear anyone complaining about "golly gee, this sure is tough for me to compute".

LilT · March 2006

Originally posted by Wakizashi

For those of you who thought the game's curve was too steep, I dare you to try Eve Online. I played SWG in teh halcyon days and I didn't hear anyone complaining about "golly gee, this sure is tough for me to compute".

Eve online has a tutorial to walk you through the basics. Even then, i struggled much more with eve online then swg. Its like too much information and not enough actual fighting or action at first. Ofc i know some eve fans might tell me to go play wow after they read that statement lol, but you gotta engage someone from the beginning. Im not going to pay fora game for a couple of months before i can enjoy it.

Ouchmuch · March 2006

Originally posted by LilT

Originally posted by Clackamas

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG [developer] vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.

Everyone keeps assuming that Helio's was talking about the players. I think Helios was talking about the DEV issues related to having enough talented people to maintain it. Certainly, Helios has arguably demonstrated a lack of interest if not inability to maintain this game.

No, when you put it in context with nacy mcintires statements and others made by devs, its clear they mean the players.

Those statements got me thinking, what days/times did they hold those focus groups because the player you get on a monday afternoon is very likely to be far different from the player you get at the same time on a sunday.

Every comment about how they made the game easier keeps bringing me back to a conversation I had with a guy in my guild, he loves the nge told me how he could never decide what skills to build before, anyway after he said that we spent 20/30 mins discussing the pros/cons of the nge until he ended the convo saying he needed to "take a weed nap", that last comment and lots of "what are you smoking" replies to threads started by people that love the nge, has left me wondering, did they focus test the wrong market segment??

New_to_MMO · March 2006

Originally posted by Ouchmuch

Originally posted by LilT

Originally posted by Clackamas

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG [developer] vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.

Everyone keeps assuming that Helio's was talking about the players. I think Helios was talking about the DEV issues related to having enough talented people to maintain it. Certainly, Helios has arguably demonstrated a lack of interest if not inability to maintain this game.

No, when you put it in context with nacy mcintires statements and others made by devs, its clear they mean the players.

Those statements got me thinking, what days/times did they hold those focus groups because the player you get on a monday afternoon is very likely to be far different from the player you get at the same time on a sunday.

Every comment about how they made the game easier keeps bringing me back to a conversation I had with a guy in my guild, he loves the nge told me how he could never decide what skills to build before, anyway after he said that we spent 20/30 mins discussing the pros/cons of the nge until he ended the convo saying he needed to "take a weed nap", that last comment and lots of "what are you smoking" replies to threads started by people that love the nge, has left me wondering, did they focus test the wrong market segment??

Don't know about those focus groups, but I'm a pothead as well but was more addicted to SWG. In fact, I blame my smoking problem on SWG because Pre-CU, i didn't smoke as much, all I did was play SWG

duncan_922 · March 2006

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.
I don't get it?? I had never even heard of an MMORPG before a co-worker told me how excited he was about the new upcoming Star Wars game. I got it on release and logged in the second day (since day 1 was f'd up).
I dont' think it was too high of a learning curve to figure out that using a pistol gave you pistol xp and using a one handed sword gave you one handed sword xp.
Let's go Bioware!

I can't believe they still stand by the idea that dumbing down the game is the way to success... Even though they have admitted to they are loosing subs. Don't they look at other games? Haven't they seen how EVE is kicking their ass?

Xcathdra · March 2006

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.
I don't get it?? I had never even heard of an MMORPG before a co-worker told me how excited he was about the new upcoming Star Wars game. I got it on release and logged in the second day (since day 1 was f'd up).
I dont' think it was too high of a learning curve to figure out that using a pistol gave you pistol xp and using a one handed sword gave you one handed sword xp.
Let's go Bioware!

I'm guessing they thought their primary market of players were going to be the "new" generation that grew up on episodes 1-3, and not the 4-6 people. Im also thinking they never bothered to look and see how many accounts one person would have when they made changes.

New_to_MMO · March 2006

Originally posted by Xcathdra

I'm guessing they thought their primary market of players were going to be the "new" generation that grew up on episodes 1-3, and not the 4-6 people. Im also thinking they never bothered to look and see how many accounts one person would have when they made changes.

I thought about this as well, but then why would they use the old "icons" from EP 4-6 instead of "icons" from EP 1-3...JarJar would be a great Icon hehehe

Clackamas · March 2006

Originally posted by LilT

Originally posted by Clackamas

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG [developer] vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.

Everyone keeps assuming that Helio's was talking about the players. I think Helios was talking about the DEV issues related to having enough talented people to maintain it. Certainly, Helios has arguably demonstrated a lack of interest if not inability to maintain this game.

No, when you put it in context with nacy mcintires statements and others made by devs, its clear they mean the players.

Nancy was actually supporting the DEVs. What she was really doing is setting the players expectations to match the dev's abilities.

chlaos · March 2006

Certainly wasnt a hard learning curve for me, and SWG was my first MMO as well. If anything, I was immediately and irrevocably sucked into that wonderfull world.

LilT · March 2006

Originally posted by Clackamas

Originally posted by LilT

Originally posted by Clackamas

Originally posted by New_to_MMO

Helios:
As a case study I give you the pre-NGE skill system. While most seasoned SWG [developer] vets enjoyed the flexibility, the system did arguably have a relatively high learning curve (in relation to comparable games on the market). With the NGE the system was over-simplified.

Everyone keeps assuming that Helio's was talking about the players. I think Helios was talking about the DEV issues related to having enough talented people to maintain it. Certainly, Helios has arguably demonstrated a lack of interest if not inability to maintain this game.

No, when you put it in context with nacy mcintires statements and others made by devs, its clear they mean the players.

Nancy was actually supporting the DEVs. What she was really doing is setting the players expectations to match the dev's abilities.

lol so when she said that there was too much reading in the game, what she really meant was that the devs are illiterate?

mrbbman · March 2006

Originally posted by OSYYRUS
That's one of the things I loved about the old system. It was so vast and flexible even after 2.5 years of playing you could learn something new about it you never realized before. You could spend time just hanging out playing with templates, trying to find the perfect one. The one that fit your playstyle and still had kick ass stats. "If I just drop this skill here, I could pick up this one and be able to do THIS too!" It was great. Yeah it was complicated, there is no other way it could have been and still been fun. This new profession system is the worst I've EVER seen in an MMO. I understand the need to simplify things, but the way they went about doing it.............my god. I can see the Sony CEO sitting in his office in Japan, playing SWG NGE for the first time and saying "Holy Hari-Kari, I'm PAYING people to come up with this crap. Send swords to Austin...stat."

That may be the root of all evil here. I don't think he did. I often wonder if the people who run these companies play their own game. I would imagine if they did there would be a lot less angry people. Who would know what gamers tend to like better than another gamer?

CasualMaker · April 2006

Originally posted by Ouchmuch

Those statements got me thinking, what days/times did they hold those focus groups because the player you get on a monday afternoon is very likely to be far different from the player you get at the same time on a sunday.

Every comment about how they made the game easier keeps bringing me back to a conversation I had with a guy in my guild, he loves the nge told me how he could never decide what skills to build before, anyway after he said that we spent 20/30 mins discussing the pros/cons of the nge until he ended the convo saying he needed to "take a weed nap", that last comment and lots of "what are you smoking" replies to threads started by people that love the nge, has left me wondering, did they focus test the wrong market segment??

The focus groups met on weekdays, during working hours, in the summertime. As soon as I saw these specs on the official SWG forums, I knew what they planned to pack the focus groups with and what sort of results they planned to get. And I knew we were in for another round of dumbing-down.

Erethorn · April 2006

It all boils down to: can you enjoy LEARNING how to play the game ? Are you a person who derives pleasure from finding out how things work ? Do you like being told the ropes of the game by other players, therefore being forced into meaningful interaction ?

Or do you want a quick tutorial to show you, on your first day, all the mechanics of the game, and then enjoy yourself by killing, looting, killing, looting, killing, looting and so on ?

Sago · April 2006

My 12 year old nephew played. He didn't have a problem with SWG being "too complicated".

I think if you hear someone say SWG was too complicated that that person was too freaking lazy to get off their ass to do things OR it is hype from an $OE or $LA employee trying to justify the NGE.

Information and help was ALWAYS available if anyone had a problem via other in-game players.

ClaudeFR · April 2006

I had some younger folks in my guild too, like 11 yrs. old, 14 yrs. old etc.
SWG pre-cu was never "complicated" to them.

I dunno what SoE is talking about here, maybe their devs where "overstressed", or this Smed one-cell brainer, creating a toon and using a weapon with more then one button and more then one shot - dunno, but obv. the developement department of SWG (these days) was hired from the local cellphone-ringtone SMS company....dunno....

i find it even kind of "rude" to say SWG was to complicated when more then a quarter million people played it.

Their "ringtone"-version now might have "cured" that: But just a splitter of the customerbase is left, so yes: That was a very "smart" move....

I swear you, this Smedguy is the one sitting over his nephews cellphone with a big questionmark on his forehead, reading the manual and trying to figure out how to change the ringtone - the same guy deciding how to operate a complex game...

Dkillian · April 2006

the problem with this complexity thing came out of some focus group that played the game for 3 day back before Pub 9 and they could not figure out how to play that y the DEV came out with that BS that the game was to dificult and all that crapp.

My self, i loved it the way it was and the best part of the game was how complex was to play it. Well someone tell me what other player community where they targeting cuz the server are getting empty day by day not cuz the game quality but for it lack of content.

Sago · April 2006

Originally posted by ClaudeFR

I had some younger folks in my guild too, like 11 yrs. old, 14 yrs. old etc.
SWG pre-cu was never "complicated" to them.
I dunno what SoE is talking about here, maybe their devs where "overstressed", or this Smed one-cell brainer, creating a toon and using a weapon with more then one button and more then one shot - dunno, but obv. the developement department of SWG (these days) was hired from the local cellphone-ringtone SMS company....dunno....
i find it even kind of "rude" to say SWG was to complicated when more then a quarter million people played it.
Their "ringtone"-version now might have "cured" that: But just a splitter of the customerbase is left, so yes: That was a very "smart" move....
I swear you, this Smedguy is the one sitting over his nephews cellphone with a big questionmark on his forehead, reading the manual and trying to figure out how to change the ringtone - the same guy deciding how to operate a complex game...

Sorry bro ... 500K.

http://www.lucasarts.com/press/releases/89.html

STAR WARS GALAXIES®: AN EMPIRE DIVIDED®
CELEBRATES ITS ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY!

Marin County, Calif. – June 28, 2004 – LucasArts and Sony Online Entertainment Inc. (SOE), a worldwide leader in massively multiplayer online (MMO) gaming, are proud to celebrate the one-year anniversary of the launch of Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided. Launched a year ago, Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided quickly became the fastest growing massively multiplayer online role playing game (MMORPG) in North America and today boasts over 500,000 registered users, with more than 115,000 players logging into the game every day.

During its first year, an impressive amount of new content was added to Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided. November 2003 saw the introduction of player cities, incorporated townships that allow players to own homes, construct public buildings and elect mayors. A variety of creature mounts and player-crafted vehicles including the familiar speeder and swoop bikes were added to the game in December 2003. Early 2004 saw the addition of the Geonosian Bio Lab, Deathwatch Bunker and Corellian Corvette adventure areas, adding numerous hours of high-end content and depth to game play.

LucasArts and SOE are currently working on the first full-scale retail expansion to the franchise, Star Wars Galaxies®: Jump to Lightspeed™. Scheduled for release in October 2004, Jump To Lightspeed will add a whole new level of twitch-based space combat to the game and will feature 15 starships, four space-based professions, and two new playable species.

"While we will continue to aggressively expand the game for all players, we also will be rolling out a series of special items reserved exclusively for our long-standing community members,” said LucasArts Producer Haden Blackman. With the launch of Jump to Lightspeed, players who have maintained an active account for at least six consecutive months will be given special access to a luxury starship. “This luxury starship will allow veteran players to venture into space with their friends and explore in comfort and style,” Blackman added. The space yacht, which is used in Star Wars® fiction by wealthy and dashing characters such as Lando Calrissian, is only the first of many rewards planned for veteran players.

About LucasArts
LucasArts, a Lucasfilm Ltd. company, is a leading developer and publisher of interactive entertainment products for video game consoles, computers and the Internet. Based in Marin County, Calif., as well as on the Internet at www.lucasarts.com, LucasArts was created in 1982 by George Lucas to provide an interactive element to his vision of a state-of-the-art, multi-faceted entertainment company.

Lucasfilm Ltd. is one of the world's leading film and entertainment companies. Founded by George Lucas in 1971, it is a privately held, fully integrated entertainment company. In addition to its motion-picture and television production operations, the company's global activities include Industrial Light & Magic and Skywalker Sound, serving the digital needs of the entertainment industry for visual-effects and audio post-production; and Lucas Licensing, which manages the global merchandising activities for Lucasfilm's entertainment properties. Additionally, Lucas Online creates Internet-based content for Lucasfilm's entertainment properties and businesses. Lucasfilm's motion-picture productions include five of the 20 biggest box-office hits of all time and have received 19 Oscars and 53 Academy Award nominations. Lucasfilm's television projects have won 12 Emmy Awards. Lucasfilm Ltd. is headquartered in Marin County, Calif.

About Sony Online Entertainment
Sony Online Entertainment Inc. (SOE), a subsidiary of Sony Pictures Digital Inc., is a recognized worldwide leader in massively multiplayer online games, with a subscriber base of over 700,000 active accounts around the globe. SOE creates, develops and provides compelling entertainment for the personal computer, online, game console and wireless markets. Known for its blockbuster franchises, EverQuest® and PlanetSide®, as well as for developing Star Wars Galaxies®: An Empire Divided®, SOE continues to redefine the business of online gaming and the creation of active player communities while introducing new genres on various entertainment platforms. Headquartered in San Diego, CA, with an additional development studio in Austin, TX, SOE has an array of cutting-edge online games in development.

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