Unfortunately it's not just dumb people that have suffered for some actions of users or that users have suffered at the hands of others. As laserit pointed out some places are just not that safe to be out and about because of what it functionally an unrelated activity going on there.
It matters because while someone can be entirely within their own legal rights with their actions, they can still find themselves in harm's way. There's only so much anyone can do about that unfortunately because the root cause for such situations isn't the game itself, but an outside party/influence. Under such a situation there isn't much to do than either a) rely on individual discretion or b) enforce some level of limitation in the game to reduce the potential from third party interference.
The dunes are our only protection against the northsea. We live below sea level. My house is 3.5 meter below sealevel. That's why it is protected.
This sounds like a fundamental civil engineering faux pas. I feel like linking Katrina videos here.
It sounds like you know nothing about our country and the engineering that was, is done and will be done. Our country is fighting the sea for hundreds of years.
Granted it went wrong in 1953 due to a combination of a high spring tide and a severe European windstorm over the North Sea caused a storm tide.
Our country learned from that and made the delta works which was engineering at top level. And I quote from the source: "Along with the Zuiderzee works, Delta Works have been declared one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World by the American Society of Civil Engineers."
The dunes are our only protection against the northsea. We live below sea level. My house is 3.5 meter below sealevel. That's why it is protected.
This sounds like a fundamental civil engineering faux pas. I feel like linking Katrina videos here.
It sounds like you know nothing about our country and the engineering that was, is done and will be done. Our country is fighting the sea for hundreds of years.
Granted it went wrong in 1953 due to a combination of a high spring tide and a severe European windstorm over the North Sea caused a storm tide.
Our country learned from that and made the delta works which was engineering at top level. And I quote from the source: "Along with the Zuiderzee works, Delta Works have been declared one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World by the American Society of Civil Engineers."
I first heard about the changes the Dutch did to the environment in Dutch culture class. I was amazed by this ambitious project that happened so long ago.
It's unbelievable that this thread turned from: 'Greedy company refuses to answer the city officials when asked to obey the law'
To: 'The Dutch are at fault for being shitty engineers'
Interesting wiki article. I thought it kind of funny it ended with this quote "Also, that afterwards the Dutch did not have serious discussions of why this preventable disaster occurred and as a nation tended to ignore its social and psychological impacts."
The reason it entered the forum, if you missed it, was that someone said they were below sea level yet right next to it. It has to do with people becoming comfortable with problems that they have grown accustomed to in their environment. The same way people live in a city filled with many things that can bring their life to an abrupt end but tend to focus on the newest thing and not necessarily the most dangerous.
Funny how people pass by logic when it comes to this game. Places they would not go, they go. Things they would not do, they do. Not sure how the game is at fault here but maybe I dont understand the law here. My fav so far is the guy playing P-GO driving and sideswiped a cop car.
Why is the game company or the game fault.. cause prior to game release there was no need or the protected areas would not have been invasive or the invasions issues would be lesser then what is upto now..
People like to use guns as examples.. why would a gun company be at fault for a crime.. when the gun itself provide no security features or mechanism preventing the gun from firing was damage or faulty. It would be the companies fault for providing an unsafe product..
Some here take this issue veriy lightly and disregard that all this issue incremented to a hell degree when the game came out.. Who does the game belong to.. who is profiting from the game.. Niantic Labs so they are held accountable for any improper actions of whoever plays the game.. Regardless of who they are servicing. They are providing a service that is becoming unsafe for everyone else.
Is the same deal wihen MP3 distributors even though RIAA when after some bystandards they could not go after the world so they went after the distributors like morpheus, bearshare, etc...
Niantic should have done a better job before revealing this game as they did.. The should have made capturing pokemon to specific park zones rather then what is now.. the only one to blame for all this mess is Niantic Labs.. Stop making excuses for them or thinking they should not be held accountable.. cause bottom line they are.. is their service aka game..
The company defiantly has to take some responsibility here. Not responding is pretty fucking rude and plain "wrong" I hope a Dutch Judge hammers them.
I think it would be a bad precedent to set. If someone makes a program and people using it in ways that break the laws, the software creator is to blame even in part. That could stop a lot of awesome programs from being created. If I stab you, am I 100% to blame? Someone did make that knife for me.
Its not about that.
Its about cooperation. If an authority is telling you that your unintentionally causing damage and you don't even have respect enough to even reply?
Who the heck do some of these companies and corporations think they are these days?
I hope the Judge Hammers them
So now you can sue companies if they dont respond to you? So you should be required by law to answer every phone call, email and snail mail sent to you? Again, I see nothing but holes.
So if your causing damage, environmental or other. Not replying gets you off any hook. Just plug your ears and go nananana absolves you of any responsibility?
I'm sure the authorities in question have made more than a single attempt to contact the company.
I'm not sure those "authorities" you mention have the authority to make such a request.
Just to be very clear, the company and its product cause no harm when used responsibly, much like alchohol, firearms or dune buggys.
If someone is using the product incorrectly, they are solely to blame, no one else.
There are plenty of laws about manufacturing and sales of alcohol, firearms and dune buggys.
How about trying to find an example product that is not regulated in any way?
Not in the context of what you quoted and you know it lol
It was illegal to distribute the copyrighted material so they went after the distributors.
Ok, time for internet sarcasm.
Knife makers make people stab people irl. They are so readily available and sharp!
Convertible car manufacturers make people steal cars. Never was it so easy.
Produce stands lead people to steal fruit. It's just right there next to the street.
Surfboard makers are responsible for drowning and shark attacks. People never wanted to be that far out in the surf before.
GPS makes people drive into walls. But it told me to turn left!
Video Games can be played on phones while driving. Its their fault I wrecked!
People break the law and blame someone other than themselves. Oh wait this isn't sarcasm.
It is not a total surprise that a company so big is being sued for something that They Did Not Do. If a Pokemon Go site is located in the ocean it is up to the user to either ignore it or find a way to get it. If they drown, are they not complete idiots or at the least unfortunate and a victim of their own actions?
Niantec will easily win. The same way Google will win for having google maps. Just because it's there it doesn't mean people should ignore their surroundings.
Niantec will easily win. The same way Google will win for having google maps. Just because it's there it doesn't mean people should ignore their surroundings.
No Niantic will not win. I remember they said you only need to contact them to remove certain areas as play fields.
They completely ignored any attempt to have the zone removed or at least limited. That's the part where they busted themselves.
You guys make such rediculous arguents. "If I bought a knife and stab someone would it be the companies fault?" Of course not. They are not influencing your actions in the slightest. Had they not made the knife and you wanted to stab someone you'd find something else. The same cannot be said for pokemon go. If the game didn't place pokemon there, nobody would have a reason to tresspass... the game is rewarding people for breaking laws. That said, I think it is up to a country to enforce its laws. The whole idea of a pokemon curfew is lunacy and would set a really bad precedence.
Niantec will easily win. The same way Google will win for having google maps. Just because it's there it doesn't mean people should ignore their surroundings.
No, you are plain wrong, these dunes are protected by several laws by the European Union and it is called Natura 2000 and is a network of nature protection areas in the territory of the European Union.
We are always in a race what our intelligence can do for us and what our intelligence does to us.
Just to be clear here, I totally think Niantic should remove or move locations that get a number of complaints. This leads to people gaming the system for their own benefit but that is just a necessary evil.
I, however, do not think they should be financially liable if people don't like where they put the locations.
You can't tell me no one has ever trespassed at that point or walked by that house before pokemon go came around so please don't argue that it is all a games fault that people suddenly went to that location and decided to break the law. It ends up sounding like a player who has one in a bad spot near them and they are throwing a fit because they can't get it.
(The source is dutch, I translated the first part.)
"Niantic has apologized to the municipality in preparation for the instituted summary proceedings and promised to remove all Pokémon from the nature reserve Westduinpark before Tuesday, October 11th, 2016, 09 am. In addition, Niantic has indicated to look for technical possibilities to turn off the Pokémon at night. Niantic has also contacted ProRail about Pokémon on the railways."
Not sure why the players are getting the blame now. The city officials didn't want a full ban, just more restrictions - the company kept on ignoring them.
How else should the city react?
Ticketing the people playing outside city bylaws. If there is a no skateboarding in the park bylaw and people break it, who gets in trouble? The guy using the skateboard or the guy who made the skateboard. Seems to me it would be the user.
Ticketing yeah but then they have to hire people to permanently guard the area.
Contacting the company to ask for minor changes seems the most reasonable approach.
Odds are pretty good their backend can't even handle that kind of request in the first place. It's probably a remove or leave, but that's about it. To have an exclusion schedule is actually a whole lot of processing and extra data fields it most likely doesn't have, and might choke on if they tried to install it. At the very least, they'd have to take the thing offline to update the entire world database and test it sufficiently before putting it all back online. Unless peoples lives are at risk, there's no company that's going to do all that without a legal requirement.
The company defiantly has to take some responsibility here. Not responding is pretty fucking rude and plain "wrong" I hope a Dutch Judge hammers them.
I think it would be a bad precedent to set. If someone makes a program and people using it in ways that break the laws, the software creator is to blame even in part. That could stop a lot of awesome programs from being created. If I stab you, am I 100% to blame? Someone did make that knife for me.
Its not about that.
Its about cooperation. If an authority is telling you that your unintentionally causing damage and you don't even have respect enough to even reply?
Who the heck do some of these companies and corporations think they are these days?
I hope the Judge Hammers them
So now you can sue companies if they dont respond to you? So you should be required by law to answer every phone call, email and snail mail sent to you? Again, I see nothing but holes.
So if your causing damage, environmental or other. Not replying gets you off any hook. Just plug your ears and go nananana absolves you of any responsibility?
I'm sure the authorities in question have made more than a single attempt to contact the company.
I'm not sure those "authorities" you mention have the authority to make such a request.
What a sad day that would be. When a foreign corporation can tell a government to go fuck themselves over their own local environment.
Stockholders should be careful about what they wish for.
This matters a lot for for the generations that come after me.
What environment? The pokemon don't exist and are only visible on your device. The pokemon have 0 environmental impact.
Now the pokemon players on the other hand, they might be breaking the law, and trashing places, but that's their own choice, fault, and responsibility.
If you can't trust your own people to not do stupid things with a smartphone game, why in the hell did you let them have smartphones in the first place!?!
It's hilarious how dense people are about culpability.
Every single person who does the whole "it's not the companies fault" speech deserves to have random stampedes of cows and live stock led across and through their property. You give those cows a good talking to, not the wrangler.
Cows have no sense of private property, or responsibilities, and a stampede can't be led, it's a stampede! The best you can do is try to steer it. (puns allowed)
Besides, it's more like the herd stampedes across your property, and you want to take the groundskeeper to court because the cows were looking for grass, and he planted it all over the county including your property.
Yes, it does seem kind of silly when bring the examples to a closer relationship to the real issue, doesn't it
It was illegal to distribute the copyrighted material so they went after the distributors.
Ok, time for internet sarcasm.
Knife makers make people stab people irl. They are so readily available and sharp!
Convertible car manufacturers make people steal cars. Never was it so easy.
Produce stands lead people to steal fruit. It's just right there next to the street.
Surfboard makers are responsible for drowning and shark attacks. People never wanted to be that far out in the surf before.
GPS makes people drive into walls. But it told me to turn left!
Video Games can be played on phones while driving. Its their fault I wrecked!
People break the law and blame someone other than themselves. Oh wait this isn't sarcasm.
It is not a total surprise that a company so big is being sued for something that They Did Not Do. If a Pokemon Go site is located in the ocean it is up to the user to either ignore it or find a way to get it. If they drown, are they not complete idiots or at the least unfortunate and a victim of their own actions?
But there is a massive flaw in your logic here. Niantic REWARDS you for breaking the law or, as you say, stabbing someone or stealing something. Also, a lot of users are minors, it seems you are talking about responsible adults only.
If a manufacturer of knives was selling said knives telling their buyers they would get a nice cash reward for stabbing someone with them, the manufacturer should, and would, sure as hell be sued. Especially if those knives were also being sold to children....
And yes, people are stupid, adults and children alike. Unfortunately many studies have shown that people will do anything to be rewarded or if they are being told to, in real life or virtually, this has been known for centuries.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Comments
It matters because while someone can be entirely within their own legal rights with their actions, they can still find themselves in harm's way. There's only so much anyone can do about that unfortunately because the root cause for such situations isn't the game itself, but an outside party/influence. Under such a situation there isn't much to do than either a) rely on individual discretion or b) enforce some level of limitation in the game to reduce the potential from third party interference.
Our country is fighting the sea for hundreds of years.
Granted it went wrong in 1953 due to a combination of a high spring tide and a severe European windstorm over the North Sea caused a storm tide.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_flood_of_1953
Our country learned from that and made the delta works which was engineering at top level.
And I quote from the source:
"Along with the Zuiderzee works, Delta Works have been declared one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World by the American Society of Civil Engineers."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Works
We also built the Afsluitdijk, constructed between 1927 and 1932.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk
Another interesting thing is Holland's flood control and without dikes, this part of the Netherlands would be flooded:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_Netherlands
I was amazed by this ambitious project that happened so long ago.
It's unbelievable that this thread turned from:
'Greedy company refuses to answer the city officials when asked to obey the law'
To:
'The Dutch are at fault for being shitty engineers'
WTF!
The reason it entered the forum, if you missed it, was that someone said they were below sea level yet right next to it. It has to do with people becoming comfortable with problems that they have grown accustomed to in their environment. The same way people live in a city filled with many things that can bring their life to an abrupt end but tend to focus on the newest thing and not necessarily the most dangerous.
It's unbelievable that this thread turned from:
'Greedy company refuses to answer the city officials when asked to obey the law'
The company did not break the law. Users did.
Why is the game company or the game fault.. cause prior to game release there was no need or the protected areas would not have been invasive or the invasions issues would be lesser then what is upto now..
People like to use guns as examples.. why would a gun company be at fault for a crime.. when the gun itself provide no security features or mechanism preventing the gun from firing was damage or faulty. It would be the companies fault for providing an unsafe product..
Some here take this issue veriy lightly and disregard that all this issue incremented to a hell degree when the game came out.. Who does the game belong to.. who is profiting from the game.. Niantic Labs so they are held accountable for any improper actions of whoever plays the game.. Regardless of who they are servicing. They are providing a service that is becoming unsafe for everyone else.
Is the same deal wihen MP3 distributors even though RIAA when after some bystandards they could not go after the world so they went after the distributors like morpheus, bearshare, etc...
Niantic should have done a better job before revealing this game as they did.. The should have made capturing pokemon to specific park zones rather then what is now.. the only one to blame for all this mess is Niantic Labs.. Stop making excuses for them or thinking they should not be held accountable.. cause bottom line they are.. is their service aka game..
Not in the context of what you quoted and you know it lol
Ok, time for internet sarcasm.
Knife makers make people stab people irl. They are so readily available and sharp!
Convertible car manufacturers make people steal cars. Never was it so easy.
Produce stands lead people to steal fruit. It's just right there next to the street.
Surfboard makers are responsible for drowning and shark attacks. People never wanted to be that far out in the surf before.
GPS makes people drive into walls. But it told me to turn left!
Video Games can be played on phones while driving. Its their fault I wrecked!
People break the law and blame someone other than themselves. Oh wait this isn't sarcasm.
It is not a total surprise that a company so big is being sued for something that They Did Not Do. If a Pokemon Go site is located in the ocean it is up to the user to either ignore it or find a way to get it. If they drown, are they not complete idiots or at the least unfortunate and a victim of their own actions?
Archeage EU - Nui
I remember they said you only need to contact them to remove certain areas as play fields.
They completely ignored any attempt to have the zone removed or at least limited.
That's the part where they busted themselves.
I, however, do not think they should be financially liable if people don't like where they put the locations.
You can't tell me no one has ever trespassed at that point or walked by that house before pokemon go came around so please don't argue that it is all a games fault that people suddenly went to that location and decided to break the law. It ends up sounding like a player who has one in a bad spot near them and they are throwing a fit because they can't get it.
"Niantic has apologized to the municipality in preparation for the instituted summary proceedings and promised to remove all Pokémon from the nature reserve Westduinpark before Tuesday, October 11th, 2016, 09 am.
In addition, Niantic has indicated to look for technical possibilities to turn off the Pokémon at night. Niantic has also contacted ProRail about Pokémon on the railways."
Source: http://www.denhaag.nl/home/bewoners/actueel/pers/to/Pokemonontwikkelaar-Niantic-voldoet-aan-eis-gemeente-Den-Haag.htm
Odds are pretty good their backend can't even handle that kind of request in the first place. It's probably a remove or leave, but that's about it. To have an exclusion schedule is actually a whole lot of processing and extra data fields it most likely doesn't have, and might choke on if they tried to install it. At the very least, they'd have to take the thing offline to update the entire world database and test it sufficiently before putting it all back online. Unless peoples lives are at risk, there's no company that's going to do all that without a legal requirement.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
What environment? The pokemon don't exist and are only visible on your device. The pokemon have 0 environmental impact.
Now the pokemon players on the other hand, they might be breaking the law, and trashing places, but that's their own choice, fault, and responsibility.
If you can't trust your own people to not do stupid things with a smartphone game, why in the hell did you let them have smartphones in the first place!?!
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
Besides, it's more like the herd stampedes across your property, and you want to take the groundskeeper to court because the cows were looking for grass, and he planted it all over the county including your property.
Yes, it does seem kind of silly when bring the examples to a closer relationship to the real issue, doesn't it
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
If a manufacturer of knives was selling said knives telling their buyers they would get a nice cash reward for stabbing someone with them, the manufacturer should, and would, sure as hell be sued. Especially if those knives were also being sold to children....
And yes, people are stupid, adults and children alike. Unfortunately many studies have shown that people will do anything to be rewarded or if they are being told to, in real life or virtually, this has been known for centuries.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Lawsuit the Hague, Niantic response!
They added an extra pokestop there!
http://www.pokemongofans.nl/niantic-onderneemt-stappen-kijkduin/